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In This House of Brede ~ May 2012
Rats, it is not available for an ereader. I will join in late as I have to wait to get back to NY to order it from the library...
It was that Diana Rigg movie which led me to Godden. Looking forward to sharing the book.
In This House of BredeYes, my first thought is always to check if the book is avaialble as an ebook...I was lucky enough to have a friend whose library had the book in stacks, not the shelves. It's in poor shape but then I like an old book with character and shows it's been loved. Looking forward to starting, I need to quickly finish the other book I'm reading (about the Dugger family) and I'll have to delay yet again reading Game of Thrones.
I was lucky that my library had the book.A local university has lunchtime lectures featuring interesting people for the lifelong learning group. Last year, a nun and a brother from the blacksmith shop at the Benedictine Abbey of Regina Laudis in Bethlehem, CT showed us a film about their work. The nuns support themselves by selling things that they have made and grown. They feature items such as honey, artisan cheeses, vinegar, herbs, perfumes, granola, pottery, candles, woven and knitted goods, wool from their sheep, hand-forged iron work, books, religious objects, and CDs of the nuns singing Gregorian chants.
The Mother Prioress is Dolores Hart who was an actress who starred with Elvis Presley in a film many years ago before she gave up the Hollywood lifestyle for a contemplative life. She runs a theater workshop for young people at the Abbey. (I've heard she gave up a man who wanted to marry her to enter the convent. He never married, and visited her yearly for conversation until his death.)
Their Abbey was formed because of the devastation of World War II, to have spiritual forces combate the evil forces of that time.
I was excited to see that In This House of Brede is about the same order of Benedictine nuns, but their convent is in the United Kingdom.
Connie wrote: I was excited to see that In This House of Brede is about the same order of Benedictine nuns, but their convent is in the United Kingdom.A local university has lunchtime lectures featuring interesting people for the lifelong learning group
-------------
Very interesting, Thanks for sharing.
That must be cool to live near a university. The lectures sound like something I would enjoy.
Joie wrote: I need to quickly finish the other book I'm reading (about the Dugger family) and I'll have to delay yet again reading Game of Thrones. --------------
We read and discuss the book all month.
I'm glad you are joining in the group read. I think it's going to be a good one !
Connie wrote: "The Mother Prioress is Dolores Hart who was an actress..."I was in Catholic school when she did this. She practically became a saint then. ;-) She was in or filmed a movie which was nominated for the last Academy Award year. Is that the one you saw, Connie? From the Wiki page i learned the title, "A documentary film about Hart's life, God Is the Bigger Elvis is a nominee for the 2012 Academy Award for Best Documentary (Short Subject) and is scheduled to be shown on HBO in April 2012"
The bio on Wiki is here-- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolores_...
deb
Deb, thanks for the interesting bio about Dolores Hart. I have not seen her films, but have just read about her in the newspapers.I went through eight years of Catholic school, and was taught by nuns for six of those years, although I am not a churchgoer now. The nuns in my school were an order of mostly Irish/American women, and were very nice people. I respect their commitment, and appreciate their spirituality. I also think there are many other ways to live a good life and help others that are not so confining. But I think having that backround will help us appreciate this book.
I read this book a few months ago, and have been looking forward to this discussion here ever since... but now I think I need to do a refresh read, there have been so many books since then :) But that's okay, this is one of those books that I will read many times.
I'm happy you are joining in the group read, Janice !
Janice, this will be fun for us all, then. I like to know what those who read the book previously think, for a considered perspective. Sometimes my views on books have changed within a month or two of reading, often following a book group discussion, i must add!Connie, while i'm not sure of our nuns ancestry, Irish/American is a good bet. Most were nice and a couple had lives before joining the convent (and a few left to have families, too). I want to keep the recent news from the Vatican, regarding the chastising of American nuns in mind, too, as we read this one. Not that i think it will be relevant to the particular issues, only with an eye toward the idea of obedience to a person &/or an institution.
deb
I just finished the book, reading most of it over the last three days. I felt like I had been totally immersed in a different way of life, one of rules, rituals, and deprivation. But also one of peace, beauty, and spirituality.
I will try to begin reading it today.If you want to, so you don't forget your thoughts, you can post about the whole book, just put spoiler and chapter # at the top of your posts.
I'm happy to see you gave it 4 stars. :)
Do you think you would read another book by this author?
Yes, I would read another book by this author. She has a quiet, but very thoughtful, way of writing.
Connie wrote: "I just finished the book, reading most of it over the last three days. I felt like I had been totally immersed in a different way of life, one of rules, rituals, and deprivation. But also one of ..."I started the book last night & am already 1/3 through with it. How quickly one is immersed in that life. I felt it began well. The storytelling is different as the story of individual nuns share on the same topic. Nice.
There are a few things I would like to discuss with the group after others finish the book:Why were the reasons behind Philippa leaving her successful career and joining the Benedictines?
Spoiler (last chapter)
When she takes the difficult job with the Benedictines at the end of the book has she gone full circle back to where she started?
Connie wrote: "There are a few things I would like to discuss with the group after others finish the book:Why were the reasons behind Philippa leaving her successful career and joining the Benedictines?
..."
My general sense throughout the book was that she left her successful career because in the end, it was not enough and she felt unhappy and unfulfilled in it. However, there is something else that haunts her which is hinted at (and finally revealed) throughout the book, and I suspect this is what drives her into a life of reflection, discipline, and prayer.
As to your spoiler question... (view spoiler)
I just read the prologue. I love the first line, indeed the first paragraph. It's a paradox. "The motto was Pax, but the word was set in a circle of thorns." It is much like the notion of the wall "not to keep us in but to keep you out." And Jesus saying, "I am not of you, but mysteriously still with you."
The sentiment expressed in the phrase, "It's my own peace I give to you, not the peace of the world." It reminds me a lot of Buddhism. Where it is taught that peace and contentment can be found in the most menial or tedious task. At first, this may also seem to be a paradox. But It all depend on the attitude you bring to the task at hand and staying in that moment.
I see the book was published in 1969. The character definitely have that feel in their attitudes.
I like the writing, though I suspect I will be reading the book at a slower pace than both of you.
Connie wrote: "Yes, I would read another book by this author. She has a quiet, but very thoughtful, way of writing."I agree, quiet and thoughtful is a perfect description of her writing. She wrote books for children as well as for adults. Some of her books I am looking forward to reading are:
The Peacock Spring
Black Narcissus
China Court: The Hours of a Country House
and her autobiography --
A Time To Dance, No Time To Weep (vol.1)
A House With Four Rooms (vol.2)
She spent a great deal of her life in India, and I wonder if that influence lends to the subtlety and layers of depth of her stories.
Janice George wrote:She spent a great deal of her life in India, and I wonder if that influence lends to the subtlety and layers of depth of her stories. -------------
Good point, Janice.
If you do read more by this author, please share your thoughts on the books with us.
Rumer Godden probably was exposed to meditation in India in her younger years. She started studying Catholicism in the 1950s, and converted in the 1960s. Her background was perfect for writing this story.
I would imagine that some people enter a convent because they are running toward something, such as closeness to God. Others are probably running away from something in the world as an escape. (Also many years ago, poor families left their girls off at the convent at an early age before they could really make a decision on their own, so they became nuns because of the circumstances.)I thought that Philippa was both running toward her vocation, and running away from the world and her problems. But I think the meditation and the routine of Brede gave her comfort, and helped her heal emotionally.
One thing i've found surprising is that this book isn't mostly about Philippa. Having seen the filmed version, i thought it was. While her entry is the beginning of the focus, it seems less about her and more about the variety of ways people enter secluded life and their reactions/lessons from it. I'm enjoying it immensely. The way she layers her story is fascinating. Sometimes i'm so wrapped up in it i forget to notice (which, of course, is the point!) but i am trying to observe the manner she chooses. Good storytelling, imo. It's the story of the community but also of the individuals in that community. *smiling*
Sorry to say i was rather confused with all the different names but now that we've winnowed them down to 7 or 8 important to remember nuns, i'm better. This is my failing, as i have a difficult time with names. Even seeing faces wouldn't help me.
Madrano wrote:Sorry to say i was rather confused with all the different names but now that we've winnowed them down to 7 or 8 important to remember nuns, i'm better. This is my failing, as i have a difficult time with names. Even seeing faces wouldn't help me. "-------------
I am so glad you wrote that, deb. I, too, am having a heck of a time with the names. I groaned when I saw the chart of all the names before chapter 1.
Since you guys are either finished or ahead of me in the book, could you give me a handful of names that I need to focus on? Thanks !
Alias, some of the minor characters come back at the end of the book so it would be hard to ignore them. I had a difficult time with all the names too, but no one is going to quiz us on them at the end of the book :)
I was reading that Rumer Godden's first baby died at birth. She later had two daughters. That may be why babies and children are important in the story.
I found a beautiful website about Rumer Godden with collages, and quotes from some of her books. It starts with a picture of a house that you click on to go into four rooms, and each room has collages and quotes. It's very artistic."There is an Indian proverb that says that everyone is a house with four rooms, a physical, an emotional, a mental, and a spiritual. Most of us tend to live in one room most of the time, but unless we go into every room every day, even if only to keep it aired, we are not a complete person." Rumer Godden
http://www.lunaea.com/words/rumer
Connie wrote: ""There is an Indian proverb that says that everyone is a house with four rooms, a physical, an emotional, a mental, and a spiritual. Most of us tend to live in one room most of the time, but unless we go into every room every day, even if only to keep it aired, we are not a complete person." Rumer Godden-------------
I like that sentiment a lot.
Connie wrote: Alias, some of the minor characters come back at the end of the book so it would be hard to ignore them. I had a difficult time with all the names too, but no one is going to quiz us on them at the end of the book :) -------------
It's just the way I am when I read. I get a bit obsessive. I'm the type of person who must look up every word that I am unfamiliar with. So not knowing who all these characters are is driving me a bit nuts.
At BNC we read another book about cloistered nuns Doubt.I recall the bit of bickering among the sisters. I was reminded of this when I read the section were Julian's brother came to give a talk.
I understand he was young and maybe they felt he was attacking their choice to be contemplative nuns instead of missionary nuns. However, it seemed even before he opened his mouth they were against him.
I wanted to read more about the artist Sisley. That is the painting she had in her office and gave away. Even then, I would think it was worth a fortune.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sisley
On page 7 of my hardcover edition, the author mentions the clock that Penny liked. She describes it as a "gold repeater". I had no idea what this meant. I don't think I've ever heard this term. So I looked it up on-line just now.
2. A watch or clock with a pressure-activated mechanism that strikes the hour.
Here are a few more words that I looked up. I knew the first few of these were prayers but not exactly sure of the definition. I thought I would post a few other definitions for others not familiar with Christianity.
lauds--A service of morning prayer in the Divine Office of the Western Christian Church, traditionally said or chanted at daybreak.
compline - last of the seven canonical hours just before retiring
divine office- Christianity / Roman Catholic Church) (sometimes capitals) the canonical prayers (in the Roman Catholic Church those of the breviary) recited daily by priests, those in religious orders, etc.
Angelus-
n RC Church
1. (Christianity / Roman Catholic Church) a series of prayers recited in the morning, at midday, and in the evening, commemorating the Annunciation and Incarnation
refectory-
Noun:
A room used for communal meals, esp. in an educational or religious institution.
Annunciation
a. The angel Gabriel's announcement to the Virgin Mary of the Incarnation.
March 25, the day on which this feast is observed.
incarnation-
Noun: 2. (in Christian theology) The embodiment of God the Son in human flesh as Jesus Christ.
Contemplative orders- (such as Benedictines, Carmelites, Trappists, Carthusians, Cistercians, etc.) are those who primarily focus is inward conversion; to grow in union with Our Lord for the love of God and the salvation souls. Such communities typically have little interaction with the world, so that they may devote themselves to prayer and penance for the sanctification of the world.
One way to differentiate orders of nuns is by the terms "contemplative" and "active." Contemplative orders spend most of their time in prayer, study and worship. They may be cloistered, meaning they rarely leave their convent. Active orders may spend time helping the poor or sick, teaching, going on missions or doing other types of service and charity.
dame- (Christianity / Ecclesiastical Terms) a nun who has taken the vows of her order, esp a Benedictine
vesper- Evening prayer.
Benedictine -
A monk or nun belonging to the order founded by Saint Benedict of Nursia.
Wiki for Saint Benedict of Nursia- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benedict...
Alias, thanks for the interesting link about St. Benedict.I saw Doubt in the theater. It was an excellent play. In some ways it's good to see the nuns bickering because it means they are intelligent and thinking.
In In This House of Brede, Brother John is trying to change their style of life when they had made vows for a contemplative life. There is also another reason for some of the nuns to be upset.....so keep reading.
I love the way the author describes the Abbey, the rituals, and the people. I felt like I had actually spent time in the Abbey since I had such a vivid mental image of it.
It's been a long time since i stayed up until 3 AM to finish a book but i did for this one. Who knew a book about nuns could be so urgent? A sign of good writing, no doubt.Alias Reader wrote: "Since you guys are either finished or ahead of me in the book, could you give me a handful of names that I need to focus on? Thanks ! ..."
I agree with others that it's hard to zero in on just a few. Even toward the end, i had to check the list of characters to remember one. Worse, as you'll see, they change jobs periodically! Yikes!
Still, i would keep note of Agnes, Maura, Veronica, and Catherine for sure. And the Abbess, of course! Others come into quite a bit of play in one part, then are barely mentioned for the rest.
(Chapter 1) How i fell in love with the rarely-mentioned 96-year old Dame Frances Anne when she said she wished she knew when she would die because "Then I should know what to read next." LOVE it!!!!
(Chapter 3) In the poetry thread i shared the poem quoted by Dame Catherine. She calls him Manley Hopkins but i've always included his first name, Gerald, when referring to him.
Connie wrote: Brother John is trying to change their style of life when they had made vows for a contemplative life. There is also another reason for some of the nuns to be upset.....so keep reading.-----------
A mystery. :)
Madrano wrote: Still, i would keep note of Agnes, Maura, Veronica, and Catherine for sure. And the Abbess, of course! Others come into quite a bit of play in one part, then are barely mentioned for the rest.---------------
Thanks, Deb. What also can be confusing is when we are given their secular name and then the name they took with their vows.
Madrano wrote: "It's been a long time since i stayed up until 3 AM to finish a book but i did for this one. Who knew a book about nuns could be so urgent? A sign of good writing, no doubt.------------
Another happy customer ! :)
Apparently the 1975 TV movie was issued briefly on DVD, but is now out of print. I wish Netflix would get hold of a copy and stream it. Connie writes: "I love the way the author describes the Abbey, the rituals, and the people. I felt like I had actually spent time in the Abbey since I had such a vivid mental image of it..."
I believe Rumer Godden actually did live for a while in the gatehouse (?) of the contemplative Benedictine monastery/convent Stanbrook Abbey in order to write this book.
Aerial view of Stanbrook Abbey
http://www.clarenco.com/uploads/pics/...
Chapel at Stanbrook Abbey
http://images.icnetwork.co.uk/upl/bir...
Vespers
http://www.kellerbook.com/vespers.jpg
Madrano wrote:(Chapter 1) How i fell in love with the rarely-mentioned 96-year old Dame Frances Anne when she said she wished she knew when she would die because "Then I should know what to read next." LOVE it!!!!"-----------
I just read that part. Great line. :)
Chapter 1Though I don't know what the Abbess is "sorry" for, I do like the sentiment that Dame Catherine expressed.
Say your sorry- if nothing else can be done- Lay it down.
How much grief we could spare ourselves if we followed this precept. And if others would truly accept the apology and "lay it down" also.
Janice, nice pictures of the Stanbrook Abbey. I noticed that it was red brick. I had to laugh when I read in the book that the Abbess, Dame Hester, hated the new brick addition since it did not blend in with the gray stone. I would have reacted the same way!
Janice George wrote: "Apparently the 1975 TV movie was issued briefly on DVD, but is now out of print. I wish Netflix would get hold of a copy and stream it. Connie writes: "I love the way the author describes the A..."
Thank you for the link to photos, Janice George. My edition of the book is a hardback, printed in 1969. The front & back inside cover (endpapers?) have drawings of the abbey. The front features the ground floor plan & a sky view. The back, has the first floor plan and a closer sky view.
The jacket informs readers "To facilitate and authenticate the gathering of her material, Miss Godden was allowed to live at the gates of a Benedictine monastery in England, and to have help and advice from the nuns." Cool.
Here is some Wiki info on Stanbrook. It was founded by a g-g-granddaughter of Thomas More. And they moved in 2009!
deb
Madrano wrote: "Janice George wrote: "Apparently the 1975 TV movie was issued briefly on DVD, but is now out of print. I wish Netflix would get hold of a copy and stream it. Connie writes: "I love the way the ..."
I have always noticed that converts to the Catholic faith ( or I guess any faith) always have that special zeal, knowingness, faithfulness, that many who are raised in the faith don't have. They immerse themselves so into the religion that they and the faith become one. I have seen that a lot with converts and knowing that our author was a convert feel that aspect is present in what I have read so far. It is like these people are holier, believe more deeply, hold more closer to heart and head than others. Has anyone noticed that?
Yes, i have. It's safe to say the same is true of those who are converts to non-faith issues, too. The former Republican now Democrat or vice versa. And how many reformed (is that the word?) addicts turn to addiction counseling for a fresh career? It is probably a desire to help others they view as lost, presuming others feel the same "need" in their lives that they did not have prior to finding their new center. Fascinating, in many respects.deb
Marialyce, you are very right about converts. Most people don't choose a faith, but are brought up in a faith by their parents' choice. It takes a real commitment to study a new faith, and make an individual choice that it is the right road to follow. Maybe they are also looking harder for spirituality compared to the average person, since it's so easy to get caught up in many other things in this modern world.
I have just completed Chapter 4, and it brought to mind many of the nuns I was taught by in both grammar and high school. When the author mentions how a wisp of hair was sometimes seen and the eyes of the nuns, I could not help but think how we as students would often talk among ourselves that we saw Sister so in so's hair or a bit of ankle, or even saw her laugh or twitter whenever a priest came into the room.We were amazed and awed and of course intimidated by these women who dressed all the same and seemed to be stern and unhappy. (at least to us) we never knew of their previous lives and probably thought they were born a nun. Of course we were not taught by cloistered nuns, but yet, they did seem never to be part of this world. They were hidden behind their veils and we never got to really know them as people. I feel bad about that knowing that when I taught I did get to really know my students and their families. It is sad for me to read this book I must admit as I really think that the times then made for a deep separation of student from teacher.
When i was growing up the Catholic diocese sponsored some sort of fair, which i now think of as a "Nunnery Fair". At a centrally located Catholic high school the gym was turned into a booth-laden salesroom for 5th graders across the state. Different orders had tables which shared info about the lives of those who entered their order. It probably was informative, but i've forgotten all but one table. The Carmelites, i believe it was, had a cut-out of their habit with a mirror where the face would go. Yup, kids could see themselves as a nun. At that age, when we just beginning to learn about our looks & how to enhance them, the image was shocking. I know it turned me off EVER considering joining a convent!In CHAPTER 2, as the nuns instruct the newcomers, one states, "Everything we do outside choir, our work, our reading, our private prayer, even our meals in the refectory are simply pauses, meant to prepare ourselves for our real work, the Opus Dei--and that needs discipline."
I found that interesting because i wonder if other orders consider the daily celebration of the Divine Office as their "real work" as well. Is it the same for all of them, just with a different route? Does anyone know? I realize that the different orders take different routes (teaching, medicine, and on) but the end is still the same. Do you think Godden included this elemental fact for readers and i'm making too much of it? (Moi?)
deb
The direction of Opus Dei is that everyone is called to holiness through their work no matter what it is. I believe it is through good works, those done for others, that the holiness or closeness to God is attained.The Opus Dei organization though has gotten a lot of attention recently due to the books of Dan Brown. The organization, Opus Dei, is now made up of secular people who follow a sort of regimen for their daily prayer and weekly prayer as well with the same dedication to God as the good sisters we are reading of.
The group Opus Dei wants a return to the basics of Catholicism. It advocates a return to the Latin mass, following the rules of the catechism, and what some believe to be barbaric, at times the self torturing in the name of the Lord. (which is supposedly not advocated at all by the group.) They are or at least have been reported to be secretive so I guess that feeds into their "popularity." I guess the same thing applies to the cloistered orders of both nuns and priests. Imaginations can and do run wild as to what went on/goes on in these places.
I don't know how far these Benedictine nuns went in their adoration of god. Right now this seems more a story of the nuns then that of faith and the issues of God. They do follow the offices of the day as most nuns do and did.
The nuns I know now live in the secular world. They rent apartments, cook their food, go shopping, have bank accounts etc. They are very far removed from the nuns of my past.
I had to laugh at your description of the religious fair. In my memory lies the remembrance that in sixth grade four children were chosen to "dress up" as two nuns and two priests and were marched in a parade, went to a mass, and had a small picnic type lunch. It was a great honor to be chosen and now that I think about it, the fact that they had these habits in children's sizes is a bit off setting. I was one of the ones chosen, more I think for the fact that my mother drove the nuns around whenever they needed a ride somewhere. It was not just the order of nuns I was being taught by but every single order of nun and every single order of the priesthood was represented along with bishops, archbishops, cardinals and even a pope.
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Book:
Author:
When: We start reading the book May 1, 2012
Where: The discussion takes place in this thread.
Spoiler Etiquette: Please put the chapter # at the top of your post. Also write SPOILER WARNING if giving away a major plot element.
Book Details:
Hardcover: 375 pages
Paperback: # Paperback: 672 pages
# Publisher: Loyola Classics (February 1, 2005)
# Language: English
# ISBN-10: 0829421289
I'm not sure why the big page difference between the hardcover and paperback.
Synopsis:
This extraordinarily sensitive and insightful portrait of religious life centers on Philippa Talbot, a highly successful professional woman who leaves her life among the London elite to join a cloistered Benedictine community. In This House of Brede was the basis of a 1975 made-for-television film starring Diana Rigg.
About the author:
Margaret Rumer Godden -Rumer Godden (1907–98) was born in England, began writing fiction as an adult living in India, and continued a successful writing career after moving back to England. She is the author of many novels , including In This House of Brede, Black Narcissus, The River, and Five for Sorrow, Ten for Joy.
Wiki bio - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rumer_Go...
Amazon Link:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/08294...