The Sword and Laser discussion

Here is an interesting discussion of the HBO series on io9 Is Game of Thrones Gratuitous Violence Worse Than the Gratuitous Violence?

I have to say that I do feel like the violence is a bit much, but I can't use my own opinion because (after a year of viewing gnarly autopsy photos while studying to be a crime scene investigator) I have no stomach for that type of thing anymore. I feel like there is a trend toward ultra-gorey violence in movies as well. Super and Kick Ass are just a couple examples. I know this is partly because we have much better special effects technology, but just because we can, does that mean we have to? Splatter porn always had its small devoted audience and the mainstream seemed to get by just fine without it. I feel like there is this idea that, if something is "gritty", that it's better. I usually find it to be the opposite, grit is used to cover up poor writing. Since poor writing definitely isn't the case, do we need all the splatter porn? GoT is definitely a violent story, but I only remember a couple times when I felt like the violence was gratuitous (SPOILER: In FfC when The Mountain cuts off the boys arm fighting the Sand Snake), but have felt that way numerous times just during the first season of the HBO series.

The nudity does feel quite gratuitous at times (although if the book was written from the series, Rose's boobs could have their own chapters. So much back story told while she was naked) However, I won't even pretend that I am put off by this. I'm a guy and I like boobies. io9 does make a good point about there being very little male nudity (however, what the men lack in quntity, Hodor makes up for in shear mass). I suppose you could make the comment that this is because GoT is set in a medieval world run by men and that's why there is so much female nudity. Or maybe it's because the super violence is pushing the demographic towards men and the nudity is fan service plain and simple? I would be interested to see the breakdown.

Anyway, I would love to know if I'm alone in feeling this way. Thoughts?

I'm getting a little bored with the rising boob count in Game of Thrones, its getting a bit pathetic, just like a 14 year old is running the show.

There was never that much sex in the books, and on the show its just getting silly how often it is; rather than feeling like its imitating life etc it just seems for the sake of it.

The violence fits the book. The sex is more than what the book has to tell a story. HBO sex is gratuitous to cater to the HBO audience.

I must be desensitised by watching too many violent movies and playing violent games but I find the violence in Game of Thrones rather subdued. Which is fine for me. Those scenes work.

You can never have too much nudity ;-) Except Hodor :-?

Maybe it's because I'm brought up in an Asian society but even though I'm a dude the nudity is starting to become tiresome and uncomfortable for me. My legion of horny friends do not agree with me however.

I would like to see more violence, it seems to me like they have had almost no battles just to save money. I agree about the nudity though.

Blackwater's coming up remember, I hope it lives up to the book. :D

I wonder if HBO has a deal with playboy channel. Same as in Tudors, this show is starting to get tiresome with the use of sex just because we can! Other shows have better writers and gladly don't need to rely on this cheap resource. But then again, maybe it was geared towards male caveman group.

Agustine wrote: "I wonder if HBO has a deal with playboy channel. Same as in Tudors, this show is starting to get tiresome with the use of sex just because we can! Other shows have better writers and gladly don't n..."

http://gawker.com/5902076/snl-explain...

I believe you'll find this link here humorous seeing as you hold the same opinion as I do.

After watching a few episodes of Spartacus: Blood and Sand, GoT seems pretty tame by comparison.

Who is comparing!? With all the warning I don't have the slight interest in a porn show. Thanks Matthew for the link. IT does make sense.

I love the GoT but find like most HBO shows clothing seems to be merely optional to the point that it becomes intrusive.
Also the amount of sex, nudity and violence means I have to totally ban my teenagers from the room where I am watching which is a pity as I think a '15' rated GoT would make great family viewing.
The other night I was watching and in one scene my husband actually looked up from his car magazine to ask 'What on Earth are you watching?' and then inquired how I could hear the dialogue over the moans and groans in the background. He made me turn it down so the children/neighbours wouldn't hear!

On the other hand the Husband is horror fan who'll watch anything once and after a few glimpses of torture porn and Italian horror the violence in GoT seems realistic but not over done.

Joseph wrote: "After watching a few episodes of Spartacus: Blood and Sand, GoT seems pretty tame by comparison."

my feelings exactly!

Joseph wrote: "I'm getting a little bored with the rising boob count in Game of Thrones, its getting a bit pathetic, just like a 14 year old is running the show.

There was never that much sex in the books, and o..."

I would be more appreciative of the boob count in the tv series, if there were any REAL male nudity. It's very lopsided.

The books had a lot of nudity (not necessarily leading to sex) and definitely an incredible amount of violence.

Just finished this past Sundays episode. And as much as I hate how the series is going it's own way. This is the first episode all season that has been truly amazing.

You can't get more real than Hodor.

I think that the violence and nudity are toned down from others series I like such as Spartacus and True Blood. I also think that the gory-ness is being upped in most films and series because people have gotten used to the norm. They are trying to provoke a reaction or feeling, which in my opinion makes the movie better. Even the sound effects are more gross, which is great. And I'm not into gory horror movies. And as for the nudity. I think that the series give the viewer a more accurate picture than the books. Reading that a scene is in a brothel doesn't bring into account that there are half naked women, drunks, and others conducting business at the same time that something more important to the story is going on. I like GRRM's books because they show the world doesn't revolve around a hero and villian. There is a world going on around them. The GoT series expresses the same thing.

I've only recently started watching this, because all I'd really heard about it for a long time was that it was OTT on the sex. When I heard a little more about the story and decided to check it out, I was astonished at how good it was, because great storyline, excellent cast, etc. was NOT what anyone I knew was talking about. It's a shame for a good show to get so swamped by such things. Some of the sex scenes are fine, and seem to fit well with the story/setting, but others are just nudity for nudities sake, and while it's not a big deal, it does get a little much, and detracts from the show.

I don't have a problem with the violence, however. It seems fitting, and I've not really noticed anything particularly shocking. Perhaps I'm just desensitised to such things. Plus it's not real, and we all know it.

The point is, does it (the nudity, violence, etc.) serve the story? It becomes gratuitous, I think, when the viewer becomes sidetracked from the story. For example, the above-mentioned brothel scene with the two prostitutes was so distracting it was difficult to follow what Littlefinger was saying--yet his exposition in that scene was crucial and went to the heart of his motives. On the other hand, the scene probably could have been directed in a way that would have enhanced and served the story instead of becoming a distraction. It's a little like adding salt when cooking--the right amount adds flavor, too much spoils the dish.

GRRM's books are very graphic so I'm not sure a "15"-rated show would represent a true adaptation of the books.

Not naked enough.

Tina wrote: "For example, the above-mentioned brothel scene with the two prostitutes was so distracting it was difficult to follow what Littlefinger was saying--yet his exposition in that scene was crucial and went to the heart of his motives. "

Wait...Littlefinger was talking during that scene??? ;P

I joke of course, but his words are certainly not what sticks in the mind, and I agree with you; it's more of a distraction than something which serves or even adds to the story.

I was thinking about this in relation to Daenerys. The final scene of the first season is really beautiful and you are left with that powerful image of her standing naked with the dragons. I think that was perfect, and would never want that changed. The first scene with her, however, had her brother strip her naked, and there, I think there was far too much focus on actually showing her nakedness which I think detracted from the scene, because I was looking at that, and not focusing on the interaction between the characters. That scene, in my opinion, would have been far more effective focused closer on the faces, using the eyes, and a hand trailing down his sisters throat and dropping out of the shot to display the show of power; naked shoulders and legs are all we need to suggest nudity and focusing on the faces better shows the complicated relationship between the siblings than 'hey, boobs'!

In short, there should be more emphasis on what works best in each scene, and less throwing in sex and nudity just for the sake of it. It's lazy not to consider alternatives first.

I have to dat that so far the series didn't strike me as overly violent or very focused on sex. we are all nakend onderneath our clothes. at least it is not all glamorous or perfect bodies. we see real people. like when Ros leaves Winterfell, I love that scène. very down to earth. And the violence seems just as real. you see just how gruesome war and death really is.
It isen't glorified, it is what it is. ok, maybe sometimes a little bit prettier than real life, we still have to want to watch. But hey I'm from the Netherlands so maybe that's why I see things differently.

Catelijne wrote: "we see real people. like when Ros leaves Winterfell, I love that scène. very down to earth."

I agree; I love that scene too. It's funny and oddly sweet, and as you say, human. It completely adds to the story/characterisation.

being a straight guy I can't say the nudity hurt the story at all. Any attempt to make this tv15 would have just have killed the story. That was my biggest issue with The Hunger Games movie they had to cut a lot out to get the pg 13. The girl was just pure death with a bow and arrow but in the movie she just killed one and he was close.

Maybe I read the books more recently so it's fresh in my mind, but they seemed extremely graphic both in violence and sexuality to me. Now, I've only seen the first season of GoT so maybe I can't really compare, but other than a few differences it seemed pretty on the money. Granted I can see where some artistic license could have been taken to make certain scenes fit better or mean more, but honestly I think we're becoming more desensitized to the violence than the nudity and sex. People get way more worked up over naked people than bloody headless ones.

To me it fits the mood of the story. The books are gritty and they have a very realistic feel to them because of all the dirty, bloody, disgusting things that happen in it. War is not pretty, it is not brave, and there is very little honor. War is nasty, vile, and gory. Some of the characters GRRM is writing about are frankly sociopaths and it makes sense to me that this level of sex and violence are present, and I think it's done well.

For example: The whole episode where people are watching each other and Petyr is watching his customer in the brothel while that customer is watching another... I thought that scene was brilliant. It set the scene for the whole episode perfectly. I don't think the same feeling could have been achieved through monologue or a less graphic scene. It's the graphic nature of those being watched that makes it so great.

As far as the Dany/Viserys relationship... the books were far worse I thought. At least she was of legal age in the show!

I do also enjoy the way that many lines and scenes are taken straight from the books. There is variation but so many scenes are familiar and I love seeing them come alive.

Some scenes that were added also did a nice job of being able to condense what was spread over several chapters into a single scene very well. For example: The scene with Ros and the other whore in Joffrey's bedchambers. You dislike Joffrey before this, but after it you hate him and that hate is necessary. In the books you are given more reasons to hate him but it takes many more scenes.

Thank you!! I agree 100%!!

Kathryn wrote: "To me it fits the mood of the story. The books are gritty and they have a very realistic feel to them because of all the dirty, bloody, disgusting things that happen in it. War is not pretty, it is..."

Extreme newbie here, so I will not be offended if anyone shoots down my opinion. Let us try and look at the question of too much violence and sex in the books and television version of the Game of Thrones as a creative person and not simply a moral person.

Oscar Wilde would say that morality and absolutes have no practical existence in art. It is a moot point. Yet one may approach it from a different angle all together. So lets say, and I restate this is my position, that in this case the violence and sex do not create moral problems. They do create narrative problems, however. Even after the first few chapters I sensed that while Martin is a skilled prose-man, he seems to be using these elements to speed up the pacing of what would be a litany of scenes in which lords and ladies and kings and queens talked politics, cussed,spat, ate too much and sat on long dull council meetings. The same problem happens in the videos as in the books. long scenes of back story and polemics slow down the pacing. The two classes of narrative elements are in battle for attention spans of both the mature and the less developed. A buddy of mine put it best when he said "I like this show. Lots of fucking and fighting, and lots of bathroom breaks."

Matthew wrote: "Agustine wrote: "I wonder if HBO has a deal with playboy channel. Same as in Tudors, this show is starting to get tiresome with the use of sex just because we can! Other shows have better writers a..."


Hahaha, now that was funny. And I've thought SNL has been terrible for years.

They were hard and violent men so the violence is a given.The nudity,not so much.Except in the far south or the lands of the Doth'raki.It may have something to do with ratings.

I'm a prude. I stopped watching after a few episodes in the first season. I don't recall the violence being that bad, but the nudity was *too* gratuitous for me. I don't mind nudity, but I feel it's only here because HBO can get away with it. To me, it's not tastefully done, it's just gratuitous and took me out of the story.

And I'll never watch Spartacus - I saw a .gif on a website of a clip from the show, and I was disturbed for days. (And I've seen crime scene photos as well, and those didn't disturb me.)

I also stopped reading the GoT books after getting partway through the 2nd one.

And on the subject of there being so much nudity and violence in GoT - I am totally freaked out that my 76 year-old mother (who frequently comments 'Sex is not a spectator sport')not only watched GoT but really enjoys it!!!

I think only people who've read the books this show is based on can say whether it's too gratuitous or not because they know if it's accurate. I've read the first four books before there even was a show and count it as one of my favorite book series because of the story, and I think the sex is too gratuitous but perhaps not the violence because of all the wars and family feuding.

If I have to spend time filling in the story for my husband, who hasn't read the books, after watching an episode because they couldn't fit it with all the time wasted showing off women's bodies, it's gratuitous. Period.

Especially all that crap with Littlefinger, his brothel, and the whore from Winterfell I don't even remember reading about so I've no idea why she plays such a big role in the show other than to have another body to show off. Littlefinger definitely has his roles to play, but being a brothel owner was such a small part of it that there shouldn't have been so many scenes there.

The books do have torture, rape, whoring, etc., but they serve to set the disturbing tone of a cruel world we would think of as our Dark Ages, where women and children had nothing, and root for the characters we like to make it out of those horrible situations. There's a sex scene here and there, more with Tyrion and Shae's parts, but not so much to justify it being in every single episode. Unless the show's doing book five, which I honestly think GRRM made more sex scenes for because he knew he was getting an HBO series.

The show is so obviously geared towards a male audience with a blatant lack of male nudity in comparison to female nudity. I'm worried that the rape and other sexual abuse scenes are not seen as unforgivable atrocities by many viewers, merely as trials for women to get over to "come into their power," such as Daenyrus with her brother and Drogo. The fact that they do a close-up shot of her breasts when her brother's touching them against her will so that you don't even get a chance to look away if you don't want to see them is wrong. No one should ever be okay with watching sexual abuse, even if acted, especially not the rape of a 14-year-old child.

I'm tired of straight guys giving the excuse of, "I like boobs." No, really? You and billions of other straight men. Doesn't mean it adds anything to the story, it only serves to get male viewers to watch while yet again objectifying billions of women. Think about it this way: if there was only male nudity and no female nudity, it wouldn't change the story, it would only objectify men. All the sex doesn't serve as big of a role in the books as HBO's making it out to be. HBO has just made the books into a porno with a story.

I play and watch violent media too, but it doesn't make me want to see more than is already shown. The shock factor is already there in the book and in the series. If you want more blood and gore than is already there based on the book, I think you may want to reflect on why you have a desire to see people maimed and sexually abused.

Thank you! I was beginning to think I was the only one who felt this way. I've never read the books nor seen the show, but once I found out how much sex and nudity was in it, and particularly that it showed graphic sexual abuse of children I no longer was interested in watching it.

Is Game of Thrones Too Naked or Too Violent?

Some people will say yes, some will say no and some will say it's just right. I say, what's the big deal? If you're enjoying the show, then keep watching. If you're not enjoying it because of the nasty bits, then stop watching. If someone doesn't like the nasty bits and wants to keep watching, then they can put their hands over their eyes for a few seconds or fast forward thru the nasty bits until Sansa comes back on to put you to sleep until the good stuff starts back up. It's a non-issue.

Um... no.

Rich wrote: " It's a non-issue."

I don't think it is a non-issue. I think focusing overly on having lots of sex and nudity disrupts the good story being, otherwise, excellently told. I'm no prude, but if I'm rolling my eyes at yet another ridiculous sex scene, thinking 'oh, for goodness sake, must we?' then surely there is something wrong.

OK. I probably could have left out the "non-issue" bit. That was a little thoughtless of me. My main point was that everyone perceived things differently based on their own personal feelings, beliefs, experiences, etc. I'm sure that the sex and violence brother some people, and I'm sure that it's just fine for other people. What's important is that the creative forces making the show felt it was important. enough to include it. Maybe it's naive of me, but I don't believe the sex and violence to be gratuitous, and only included at the insistence of HBO.

I watch porn all the time.
The nudity and sex in GoT didn't bother me because of any prudishness on my behalf.
It bothered me because those scenes felt forced.
They used gratuitous sex in place of story.
Season 1 of GoT was almost boring because of it and I never felt compelled to watch after that.

I don't think that the Nudity and Violence is really the focus .

The nudity that is present isn't done distastefully, and the violence it's rare they add anything that isn't at least somewhat plot centred.

Sure, If they tried, they could probably avoid it.
But If they tell a good story with breasts and sword fights, then I don't have a problem with it.

William wrote: "They used gratuitous sex in place of story"

That's my issue with it. Littlefinger explaining things could be done without naked women learning how to fake it and Bronn singing "The Rains of Castamere" could have been done without a naked girl on his lap. I also agree with Rich in that I think HBO insists on the nudity more than the writers.

Actually, I was thinking HBO wasn't forcing the creative team to add more sex and violence. I think they're just trying to tell a story, and since I'm really enjoying everything they've done so far, I'm hoping that they don't try to fix what ain't broke.

I do think it's a bit too 'sexy time' on screen but that seemed to have calmed down towards the end of Season 2 and Ep1 of S3 had hardly anything. I think it was probably a scheme by HBO (like with True Blood) to get a lot of viewer by putting in a lot of sex in the beginning.
As for violence, I think it's violence is fine. Although felt bad for the nipple guy this week xD

Alex wrote: "Although felt bad for the nipple guy this week "

Yowch! Even if nipple guy didn't, I sure felt his pain. I winced more for that than I did for any of the scenes in which heads, limbs or tongues were lopped off in the previous two seasons.

Hi, I am a Goodreads author and an avid reader. I too bought a book in this series and was astonished at what a great writer has escaped my attention all these years. I know HBO is adding stuff that is not described in such detail (come on, gratuitous beaver shots?) in the book. The porn bothers me on a lot of levels and does exactly what good story telling is not supposed to do--go off on a tangent. Additionally, 99% of the men watching the show would like their wives or daughters up on screen. What happened to a bit of integrity and tastefulness? For the same reasons I don't really like looking at pools of vomit (also in the film).

Julia wrote: "Additionally, 99% of the men watching the show would like their wives or daughters up on screen."

I don't understand this.

I think she meant >NOT< like their wives or daughters on the screen.

Agh, yeah, you're right.
I read it several times, trying to figure it out.

Julia wrote: "Additionally, 99% of the men watching the show would (not) like their wives or daughters up on screen."

[Made the correction there]

My reply: 99% of the men watching The Deadliest Catch(*) would not like their wives or daughters up on the screen.

* - Feel free to replace "The Deadliest Catch" by several other shows or movies, like The Vampire Diaries, Band of Brothers, Schindler's List, Sponge Bob, the GOP convention...

The show is amazing, and neither you or me are capable of making a better one (or making it better, that your pick).

People love to backseat drive, don't they?

Giving your opinion about art isn't backseat driving.

William wrote: "Giving your opinion about art isn't backseat driving."

Making the '99% of men' argument is.