The Sword and Laser discussion
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The Fall of Hyperion
2012 Reads
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Hyp: Will You Read Fall of Hyperion? *spoilers likely*
I won'r read part two. I didn't enjoy part 1 and feel it is a tad dishonest to write a book requiring the reading of another book. So many good authors around and so little time - why waste it on Simmons?
Anne wrote: "I won'r read part two. I didn't enjoy part 1 and feel it is a tad dishonest to write a book requiring the reading of another book."Ok, this is a reason I can understand for not continuing with the Cantos.
Do you regret finishing it, though? Is this one you wished you'd Lem'd? Was there any redeeming quality to it for ya?
As T & V mentioned in the show, Hyperion and Fall were originally one work that was split into two for publication.
That's not something you can blame on the author, really.
That's not something you can blame on the author, really.
I'm not going to read the second book. I didn't mind the first book, but didn't enjoy it enough to continue. I just went to Wiki to wrap up the plot lines. (view spoiler)
Mod
I loved Hyperion, I think it is a modern classic.
I can't understand people feeling let down that the first book of a 4 book series doesn't have a stand alone completed story :-?
(Unless you read it not knowing it was part of a series)
I look at the Hyperion Cantos as a 4 book series told over two '2 book' story arcs.
A conclusion would have been nice, but I understand a cliffhanger.What I do not understand was that hand holding/ sing-a-long ending. Breaks established characters pretty much across the board. I found it insulting.
While the adventure and the mythos are somewhat interesting, the mystery wasn't compelling enough, nor were there any characters I felt attached enough to continue reading.
Redeeming quality --- hmmm... not really. Simmons style was rather so-so. It didn't appeal to me. If there was any deep philosophical meaning it missed me or is in vol 2 - or not. The Detective's tale and the Scholar's tale were the best of the lot but seemed written as short stories first...maybe at university...compared to the rest of the book he may have had academic advice/correction on them. The science part shows no particular insight and was pretty typical of what was going on in scifi when it was written...it seems tacked on. The author always has some control if his aim is more than a paycheck. That is, the ending could have been done better for the reader who might only have vol. 1 available. Or at least he could have mentioned the need for vol. 2 if, indeed, the second volume was being published as part of vol. 1. But it seems to me he only had the paycheck in mind.
I only read it because of it being part of S&L. I doubt I would have picked it up at a bookstore on my own.
I do get that the people who wrote the reviews on the cover of my edition think Simmons compares with Ursula LeGuin, Frank Herbert and Isaac Asimov. I don't think he comes close to Asimov and Herbert and is not even in the same world as LeGuin... So I assume Simmons is well-connected to the publishing business - maybe through relatives. It is also possible the reviewers were insane.
I didn't think of checking wiki since it was part of a read-a-long. But maybe I'll amble over and see what wiki has to say.
I read the wiki articles. Simmons was an English major in Education and was an elementary school teacher. His writing has a lot of "influences". A nice way of saying it. LOL.Much of the appeal of the series stems from its extensive use of references and allusions from a wide array of thinkers such as Teilhard de Chardin, John Muir, Norbert Wiener, and to the poetry of John Keats, a famous English Romantic poet of the 19th century, and the monk Ummon; a large number of technological elements are acknowledged by Simmons to be inspired by elements of Out of Control: The New Biology of Machines, Social Systems, and the Economic World.[citation needed]
The Hyperion series has many echoes of Jack Vance, explicitly acknowledged in one of the later books.
For me the tacking on of bits and pieces of the works of others is not an "appeal" in this case because it is often done willy nillly or as padding/pretention. (was he being paid by the word?)
terpkristin wrote: "How many people, if you've finished, will read The Fall of Hyperion? I think I can understand why you would, but if not, why not?
When I finished Hyperion the first time (this is a re-read for m..."
Loved book one, read book 2 immediately after, currently on book 3 and will read book 4. But I'm a "series" type reader. I'm hoping to finish this series in time to slot in book 8 of Steve Erikson's Malazan series before next months pick. I'm glad the next book will not be part of a series because hopefully that will give me time to finish Malazan as well as the last 2 Esslemont book tie in's before the pick in the following month. After which time I don't intend to read 14 book series with 1000 to 1400 pages per book for a while. Though I am tempted to re-read Steven Kings 7 book (now 8) Dark Tower series now his new book is out.
Did I mention I like series?
Anyway, If you don't like Hyperion then I totally get lemming the series. 500 odd pages into a story is a bit much to ask to stick with it if you can't get into the book by then.
Anne wrote: "Redeeming quality --- hmmm... not really. Simmons style was rather so-so. It didn't appeal to me. If there was any deep philosophical meaning it missed me or is in vol 2 - or not. The Detective's ..."Anne wrote: "Redeeming quality --- hmmm... not really. Simmons style was rather so-so. It didn't appeal to me. If there was any deep philosophical meaning it missed me or is in vol 2 - or not. The Detective's ..."
This seems rather insulting in that you assume, simply because you didn't like, that the only way Dan Simmons could have accomplished this is with some inside "connection" with the publishing industry. You couldn't be more wrong. Perhaps the vist to Wikipedia is in order. This book did in fact win the 1989 Hugo ( a people's choice award) for best science fiction novel of that year. And that was before The Fall of Hyperion came out.
Yes, Hyperion appeals to many readers, as the discussions here demonstrate, but the only competiton in 1990 for the Hugo were similarly non-scifi and far more fantasy... OSC's Alvin, etc. Except maybe for Poul Anderson's spaceship book which wasn't his best. So it seems a malaise of the time and what the publishers were publishing under the genre title of scifi.
The real point being Dan Simmons was not a publishing insider, he was a high school English teacher.
No, I won't spend the time to read it. Surprisingly (for him) my OH read Hyperion along with me and immediately bought the second, so I asked whether it would solve the issues I had with the first. He said "Not a chance, it will make you crazy". ;-) It's really not my kind of sci-fi and I have major problems with authors who lean too much on the "look at me, I'm so clever" style of writing. I appreciate cleverness but this really crossed the line into pretentious for me.
It's quite OK if you didn't like the book and don't plan to continue the series. What I'm objecting to is your characterization that takes a personal swipe at Dan Simmons. You assert that 1) his success hinges on his being a publishing insider or 2) his winning the Best novel Hugo was because of all the other competition was so weak. That's what I think is insulting.
Joe wrote: "The real point being Dan Simmons was not a publishing insider, he was a high school English teacher."One of his bios says elementary education teacher. That however does not disprove publishing connections.
Dan Simmons would like to introduce literary agent Richard Curtis to readers and visitors of our web site. As Dan explained --
"Richard Curtis has been my agent and dear friend for twenty-four years. He's also a true mensch. Perhaps more pertinent to his presence on this web site, Richard is also one of the most respected and listened-to literary agents, writers' advocates, and e-publishers in the business. For any of you currently involved in the writing and publishing field -- or even considering becoming involved in it -- these essays on the hidden realities of publishing in the 21st Century should be of great interest. I know I'm looking forward to reading and re-reading them."
http://www.dansimmons.com/news/curtis...
P.S. Harlan Ellis' influence helped Simmons publish his first story. His blog still calls Ellis a pal.
Defiantly, I really enjoyed Hyperion. Several of the narratives kept me up way to late because they were *so* good.
Skaw wrote: "I'm not going to read the second book. I didn't mind the first book, but didn't enjoy it enough to continue. I just went to Wiki to wrap up the plot lines. [spoilers removed]"Did you read the wiki for Endymion and Rise of Endymion. Pretty much everything is answered by the end.
terpkristin wrote: "How many people, if you've finished, will read The Fall of Hyperion? I think I can understand why you would, but if not, why not?
When I finished Hyperion the first time (this is a re-read for m..."
Start Fall of Hyperion yesterday. Of course I've already read it many times but I'm enjoying re-reading the series yet again. I can't imagine ever getting tired of them.
Anne wrote: "Joe wrote: "The real point being Dan Simmons was not a publishing insider, he was a high school English teacher."One of his bios says elementary education teacher. That however does not disprove ..."
Harlan Ellison. He is another highly recommended author.
I read Hyperion a couple of years ago and enjoyed it, but have never gone on to read Fall of Hyperion - despite having a copy of it.I think part of the reason is that I've heard from several sources that Hyperion is famous for being one of those series that starts extremely strongly, but then immediately nose dives after the first book.
So I enjoyed Hyperion but have heard enough from trusted sources that I don't think I'd continue on and spoil my memories of the first book. Kind of daft, I know, but that's what I've done so far.
Since Veronica has finished Hyperion, perhaps she should be assigned the second book as extra homework and report back? ;)
Too late; I devoured Fall of Hyperion immediately after finishing Hyperion, and then wolfed down Endymion and Rise of Endymion right after.I cannot express how much love I have for those books in mere words.
Jay wrote: "I think part of the reason is that I've heard from several sources that Hyperion is famous for being one of those series that starts extremely strongly, but then immediately nose dives after the first book."Started Rise of Endymion today - I can say it definitely does not nose dive straight away and in fact you won't appreciate how cleverly written the first book really was until you read further.
Rik wrote:Did you read the wiki for Endymion and Rise of Endymion. Pretty much everything is answered by the end. "
I did, and I didn't feel like it was - at least to a satisfactory degree. Having not actually read the books, I can't say to a certainty, but that was what I gathered from the Wiki and other stuff I found on the interwebs.
(view spoiler)
Rik wrote: "I didn't think Rachel was explained well"I thought the Rachel explanation/story in the second book was pretty good - a definite "ah hah" moment. Not sure how well you are going to glean the "goodies" from wikis.
The first book is really a cornerstone book - a foundation on which the rest of the building/series rests. Some people look at the stone and can admire the handiwork in its own right - and some just ask "where's the building?" Reading Wiki's would be like looking at the building plans - its not quite the same.
I will read the next book later. I enjoyed the first, but do not feel compelled to read the second immediately.
Lite wrote: "I will read the next book later. I enjoyed the first, but do not feel compelled to read the second immediately."I have to agree with Lite. I'm not compelled to read the second one just yet. I do have the rest of the books in the series on my Kindle, but they aren't calling out to me.
Since I own the whole series in paperback, I started in on Fall of Hyperion right after I finished the first once. Haven't decided yet if I'll read Endymion/Rise of Endymion too - I love them, but by June I'll probably have something new on the horizon.
Tiffany wrote: "I have to agree with Lite. I'm not compelled to read the second one just yet. I do have the rest of the books in the series on my Kindle, but they aren't calling out to me."But why? What about the cliffhanger ending was enough?
Full disclosure, it's been awhile since I've read this and I can't remember what the ending is...
I'm about 25% into Fall of Hyperion and I think it is essential to completely appreciating the first book. Highly recommended.
@terpkristinI think the reason why the cliffhanger is fine with me is because I just wasn't drawn to the characters enough. I don't know if I wasn't in the right mindset for the story, or if the characters just weren't compelling enough for me
I was just ambivalent when they skipped off into the sunset. The fact that they were singing "Off to See the Wizard" made me smile, but that was it.
When it comes to book series I know that it was a compelling story because I don't want the story to end. I have a need to find out what happened. I feel that if I don't continue on with them on their journey then they will be stuck in a never ending loop never to complete their lives.
With the characters in Hyperion I just wasn't emotionally invested enough to help them continue their story. So it's not so much that the story was satisfying, but that I'm punishing them for not drawing me into their world.
Now that I re-read what I have written it seems kind of vindictive, but there you have it. I guess I'm just a brat. ;-)
Since Hyperion and the Fall of Hyperion were originally written as a single novel and the publisher chose to split them and market them separately as two novels, then to stop at the end of Hyperion, would this count as Lem'ing the book?
I was listening to the book whilst driving for work and didn't know how much was left when suddenly they announce 'epilogue' and I'm thinking this is going to be a damn long epilogue to wrap up the book. Of course we know how that goes and I was astounded and laughing and feeling cheated.All complaints aside its a really brave way to finish a story and really makes you analyse just what you think is going to happen and what it all means.
The mystery makes it stronger I think.
Afterwards I also recalled the story mentioning that Keats' Hyperion was never finished and wondered if this was a clever mirroring of his epic poem.
There is a strong element of self-discovery and people challenging their relationship to life, religion, art and the universe throughout all the stories. It seemed to me Simmons wove such a intricate array of differing moralities and viewpoints that the whole purpose was to give you the tools to make up your own mind on what happens.
Does the universe end or do they find a way out, are we even worth saving and how long can we even keep going even if we are? Big questions and he ensures your forced to answer them because he isn't going to tell you.
Though i'm reading too much into it seems heh as I see it's just one big book that was split in two and not a powerful statement on the fact that you create your own universe in your mind.
To get to the original question though, I loved the book but had so many conflicting thoughts on the ending I just didn't know if I could continue on, and if I even wanted the questions answered.
I did just the other day buy the sequel on Audible though so I am tentatively going forward even though I am a little aprehensive.
I'm going to stop buying books and reading to create my own universe in my mind.
Just finished Hyperion. Completely don't mind the cliffhanger - other books in Sci-Fi/Fantasy series have done the same. I'll definitely be looking to get hold of Fall of Hyperion and finishing off the first half of the complete cantos ASAP.
I liked the book, and I do plan to read Fall of Hyperion; but I did not love the book, and I will not read Fall of Hyperion right away.I thought the world building was great, and some of the stories were very good, but often I found Hyperion fairly difficult to read. The Priest's Tale and the Scholar's Tale were excellent, and although the others were not quite at the same level, they each offered a unique glimpse into both the universe and the characters.
Still, I found it difficult at times to pick up the book and keep reading. The nature of the book, being essentially a framed collection of short stories, meant that there was very little sense of progression. The chapters were so separate and self-contained that after finishing one, I felt no compulsion to find out what would happen in the next. And because the stories were all so different, enjoying one did not mean I would enjoy the next.
I think Simmons worked hard to weave connecting elements into all of these tales so that readers might feel like they are gaining new insights and clues with each new chapter as to the mysteries of the Shrike. But for me, it was not enough to create a sense of progression. Too often, starting a new chapter felt like a chore.
Again, I liked the book, and by the end I did care about some of the characters. Ultimately I do want to find out what happens in Fall of Hyperion. But for now, I need a break.
Im so happy to see other people thought the book was so so. With that said i cant leave it where the first book left it i am most of the way through the second and still unimpressed the characters besides Fedmahn Kassad hes a bad ass through the whole book.
Interestingly enough, although Kassad's story in Hyperion was not my favorite, he might actually have been my favorite character. Kassad, Rachel, and Dure's cruciform are the main reasons I am interested in Fall of Hyperion.
It's a fix-up book of stories that would not sell individually. (Van Vogt invented the term). However, the seams aren't supposed to show.
You've all read only half a novel. Reserve judgement until you've finished the novel as the author intended. You won't regret it. (This advice is for all except Anne, who clearly is determined to dislike anything Dan Simmons has ever done. Proceeding is not recommended for Anne, though I think you'll like Slan)
Joe wrote: "You've all read only half a novel. Reserve judgement until you've finished the novel as the author intended. You won't regret it. (This advice is for all except Anne, who clearly is determined to d..."A stand alone book should be able to stand alone.
What country are you from, Anne? (We have another Anne from Germany.)
Audiobook is over 20 hours in length just for Hyperion.Here's what else just happens to be on my mobile device.
The Left Hand of Darkness: 10.5 hours
The Diamond Age: 18.5 hours
Embassytown: 12.5 hours
So in the time spent on just Hyperion, one might have read what I would consider one or two superior books. I really can't see plunking down what I assume is another 20 hours plus for something I really don't like that much. Also, as an atheist, I'm not particularly interested in issues of faith. Keep religion out of my Sci-Fi.
I too am an atheist but I see that as irrevelant. I've also got the Left Hand of Darkness and Diamond Age under my belt so my priorities are different. I've also got Embassytown loaded but just can't get into it. Probably some day. Ya gotta have priorities. :)
im reading Fall now... Hyperion wasn't *that* bad and I figure i'm already through the tough part so why not?I also want to see the fate of my favorite characters the keat cybrid, Sol and Rachel unfold. I can't quit on my new friends :P
Two copies of Fall of Hyperion in my local used bookstore and with $80 worth of credit I will pick one up. Probably not read it right away.
I wrote on this subject in the thread of "why I felt cheated on the ending", what ending? Anyway, I have decided that if I can't get the characters out of my mind in the next week or so I will either get the audio book from the library (only choice) or hunt up the spoilers. But, I do have another thought, maybe I just don't want to know since the whole plot seems sort of a hack job. Sorry, to all of you who really like the book and I could have really liked the book if it hadn't been so poorly done.All this seems sort of deja-vu, perhaps because I may have read it when it came out with the same results.
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I am also an atheist but I don't mind religion or faith being explored in books I read.
My favourite story in Hyperion was The Priests Tale.
Religion, like conservative politics, is something I dont subscribe to but it is fascinating to hear stories from those points of view.
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I think I can understand why you would, but if not, why not?
When I finished Hyperion the first time (this is a re-read for me), I remember being sooooo angry with the ending. I originally read it because it was on some "Top 100 Sci Fi Books" list I came across in 2003 or 2004 (back before I started avoiding those type of pages as click-bait). When I got to the end, I was completely let down. I didn't know that it was only the first "half" of a book, that there was a sequel (and more!). I went on to "despise" the book and immediately shunned the rest of the list for how "poor" Hyperion was for being rated so highly (it was in the top 5 of the list if I remember correctly).
Now that I'm older and pretend to be wiser, I know better...but I still couldn't imagine stopping after Hyperion. Anybody? Bueller?