Ancient & Medieval Historical Fiction discussion

This is a new thread that will hopefully develop to its full potential soon.
Our fellow A&M member, Monet, has a hobby that I am sure many of you would be jealous of.

When she has spare time she escapes to castles in her area. Takes photos, learns about them.
(How lucky is she to even LIVE in a country that has castles? *jealous*)

Monet is going to share her trips, past and future, with us as she from time to time flits around her local area walking castle ruins.

I can't wait for her first post. :)

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I also want to open the floor to other members too.

If you have walked some ruins, a Roman Wall, a long forgotten Chapel, a Castle, or maybe you stayed in a Castle or old building while on holidays.
Please feel free to upload up to 2 photos per ruin, castle or site (so if you visited 4 sites on holidays...please upload up to 2 photos per site..which is 8 photos total) to the groups photos.

Then copy and paste the photo link into your post and include some history of the place and a story about where it is, how you found it etc..

Of course, if you upload the photos to you own profile, instead of the groups photos, there is no limit.
But please only include links to photos in your posts, NO photos.
Do not put the image in the post only the copied and pasted link, otherwise the thread won't load very well for people who have slow internet speeds.
Here is the groups photo page for uploading to.
http://www.goodreads.com/photo/group/...

Hm.....
This sounds like fun!
I have been researching castles for a project I've been working on - close-ups of fortifications (internal stairways that turn clockwise facilitate a fighting retreat). Yum!

I'll look for some of my photos,,]]...

Thanks, Terri!

Excellent. Will look forward to seeing your pics. :-) !!!

There is no end to your imagination, Terri. First, horses, now castles.

Well, I actually lived in one from 1952 to 1958 - most of the cities had been bombed and housing was scarce. It sounds grand, but consider this: 92 steps to haul grocery bags up and lug laundry down to the boiler room. No running water - cold water spiget down a long corridor and - ah, yes - the loo a floor below, marbled but unheated! However, for a small child, it was a mysterious place. I remember sliding down long bannisters (careful not to fling myself into the huge leaded-glass window at the end), hiding behind creaking doors and climbing up rickety stairs while flushing out pigeons to push open a reluctant trap door onto the highest dry-rotted turret. Why my little buddies and I didn't fall to our deaths is a wonder to this day.

A "Schloss" is a castle without fortification (such as Versailles and Schoenbrunn in Vienna) whereas a "castle" has moats and many stations that can be closed with nasty contraptions including the Iron Maid and various dungeous - and there were many in my childhood neighborhood - especiually those warding off the Turks.

I shall try to upload a picture of "my" Schloss - but may need Diana's help again ...

Inge

Fantastic, Inge. What fantastic history. See this is why I am looking forward to this thread evolving. For stories like that. You know, as a history fan, the mere mention of the fortifications to fend off the Turks, and my imagination soured!! Love it. Can't wait to see a picture.

I must admit that the thread idea was mostly our fellow member's, Monet, idea.

To add a picture to the groups photos....

Go to the 'photos' page (see righthand column where there is listed such thins as bookshelves, group home etc)

Click on 'add a photo'

Click on 'browse'
(This will bring up your computer documents folder..find your photos and the photo you want)

When you find the photo you want click on it.

Then click 'upload' on GR photo page and wait.

Then copy and paste the photo 'url' (the link in the website address bar) into your comment. :-)

http://www.goodreads.com/photo/group/...

Inge's Schloss in Austria - Romantic? Hardly: Cold, Drafty, and 92 steps each time to reach "home."

In contrast to a "Schloss," the Riegersburg (Rieger's Castle") had seven fortified gates - it took an hour to walkup to the main "Burg." The gates had iron grills, hot tar buckets, and other welcoming contraptions you had to overcome. As school children, we had excursions there - walking to the base (2hrs) and then climbing up (1 hr) and, of course, lurching back home for two hours. Yes, you did a lot of walking in those days.

Riegersburg itself is a wonder of early ingenuity, being built on top of a high impenetrble cliff with only a donkey's path hewn into the rock.

Again, comfort was sacrificed for safety and dominance over the countryside.

http://www.goodreads.com/photo/group/...

Inge H. wrote: "http://www.goodreads.com/photo/group/...

Inge's Schloss in Austria - Romantic? Hardly: Cold, Drafty, and 92 steps each time to reach "home.""

Whoa...what a beauty. How old is it Inge? Late 1800's? Or is it very early 1900's? Or am I way off?

Did you have the whole Schloss to your family? Or was it split into apartments?

It sure is a wonderful looking place to explore. :) Despite all the steps and chilly drafts.

Inge H. wrote: "In contrast to a "Schloss," the Riegersburg (Rieger's Castle") had seven fortified gates - it took an hour to walkup to the main "Burg." The gates had iron grills, hot tar buckets, and other welcom..."

Oh my goodness. That is a long way to fetch a pale of water. lol.
I am quickly on GR right now, but plan on staring at that picture longer next time I log on. So I can soak it all in....

How about pics of Castillo de San Marcos in St. augustine, FL? It's really more of a fort but is one of the few if not the only one in the States (not counting San Jaun!) Or the fort on St. Croix? Was there last year! Have a pic where it looks like I could fire cannons on the chi chi resort hotel on the private island across the harbor. lol

As a teenager, I lived in Northern Baveria and enjoyed going to the castles in that region.

Yes, Fort's count. Lol. All historical ruins or old historical structures count on this thread. :-)
Please show us a photo or two. That would be great!

Terri - To your questions about "my Schloss" -- no, alas, we just had a huge room in the right turret which my father partitioned into something liveable. The first floors belonged to the bank and post office, the next was occupied by the conservative party, and then four apartments on the upper level.
(One good thing about not owning it: Not having to re-roof the monster.)

The fun part was exploring and rummaging around the wooden attics filled with old trunks, bank records, and pidgeons.

It was supposedly built by a rich widow in the late 1800s who wanted to be higher than the Catholic church (which sits next to it and at that time had no tower). However, the bells were still "eye level" with us and our first Sunday there, we were literally blasted out of our beds at five am. But you get used to it - like a coockoo clock (thank goodness, we never had one of those).

The town has also quite well preserved ramparts and my little buddies and I used to explore its dank and dark cellars tasting whatever we could find in dusty bottles. Some of it, I am sure, was not meant for human consumption - but we lived.

Austria has, as you all know, wonderful castles - many of them converted into youth hostels now. One of its most fameous sits above the danube where Richard III (Lionheart) was imprisoned on his way back from the Crusades (Schloss Duernstein).

THe capital of Styria, Graz, has a fort on top of a formidable hill in the middle of it - and, again, it was to where the populace retreated when the Turk knocked on the door. (The city, by the way, is my birth place as well as that of a certain former Governor of California)

"I'll be back!"

What a wonderful way for kids to grow up (despite the tinnitus you nearly developed by living next to the bells..lol).

I am wondering. Does Austria have 'hofs' like Germany? Some of my family originally came from Prussia and the Hof House (large manor house on a farm) is still in the family over there. It has been in the family for over 500 years.

Absolutely. "Hof" means courtyard. The most fameous is Vienna's "Hofburg" - the "in-town" Hapsburg residence. It then developed that when one talked about the "Hof" - it meant actually the court itself.

There are many wonderful manor houses in the country and - contrary to the Germans - the Austrians seem to hang on to their (no longer legal) aristocratic names - and some really haywire titles.

After the 1964 Olympic Winter Games in Innsbruck (I was still very young), the Secretary General transferred me to the Vienna Headquarters of the Austrian Olympic Committee - and (you guessed it) it was housed in a wonderful little Palais near the Opera house ... It was great, but I am still horrified about the stiletto heel tracks I layed down into the old parquet floor from my desk to his (you could only see them in the sunlight from my desk - so I was never reprimanded while I was there).

Building those Burgs, Castles, Forts and Schloesser (the plural has an Umlaut - hence the "e" after the o) just think of the toil, 10-Meter thick walls sunk flush onto sheer rock - makes you think of the Ancients. A lost art that endured. I doubt that our houses will.

I agree. Such an art building those walls. Now it is only rare artisans who know how to do it and I know they cost a fortune. Back then...with cheap and slave labour, I imagine it was fairly cheap. :) I guess oyu only paid the head stonemason.

Our distant relatives that have the hof in what was formerly Prussia, say it with their surname in front of Hof. They used it for a guesthouse and holiday place until recently. As in they converted the old outbuildings for people on holiday to stay there and experience the farm.
Apparently the village and surrounding farms used to be tenants on our ancestors land and they had to pay our ancestors rent.
I am not sure what the set up is now, but I think they still had some tenants on their land.

Sorry for the lag Terri, those duck and cover drills will really waste a day...
Sunday was a perfect day to visit the medieval Berg Berwartstein near Dahn Germany. First mentioned by Barbarossa in 1152, this is one of the Drachenfels rock castles, which means many of the original rooms, passageways and stairs all carved from the rocky cliffs.
In 1152, Emperor Friedrich Barbarossa gave it to Bishop Guenther von Speyer. The Bishop then gave the castle on lien to a loyal knight, Rudolph and so began the time of the Robber Knights. It wasn't seen as dishonorable for these knights to rob and sack nearby villages. In this particular period, many of the national princes simply did not take any action against the robber knights, partly because of worries of their own, and partly because of their open friendships with the lawbreakers, much of it earned on battlefields. This robber knight class made its honor and fame through their relationships, bloodlines, conquests, and skill in battle. They lived following the principles of the old German right of feud. Those which served faithfully, or impressed and made friends of the higher kings and princes, were above being punished for their crimes...but of course, people get tired of being sacked.
The lords of the particularly damaged cites of Strasbourg and Hagenau joined together and prepared to defeat Castle Berwartstein and it's ruler. This was no easy task due to the ingenious castle defense that made force of entry impossible. To access the castle, a rope ladder was lowered down the hand carved tunnel entrance. In case of intruders, instead of a rope ladder, boiling oil, lead or pitch was dropped on the intruders. Needless to say, the siege of Berwartstein took many long weeks but was finally ended by betrayal from within. (isn't it always the way...) Castle Berwartstein was then sold to the Weissenburg Abbey, who appointed constables over the castle. This arrangement could only be done well for so long,, given the nature of the time. When Berwartstein's constable at the time, Erhart Wyler, started launching encroachments on a neighboring region, it turned into a battle with the knights of Drachenfels. This feud gave Pfalz Cure prince Friedrich I, a welcome excuse to intervene. His intervention served several purposes. One, he wanted the castle, with its strategic location and rich lands; for another, he wished to extend his influence in this particular area of the country, and most importantly... because he did not like the Weissenburg Abbey's control of a Empire fief, nor its Abbot or constables. To spite them, he occupied the castle- then things get interesting...

Photo interval. Pay close attention to the torture room. Also the well, which is inside the castle, was dug BY HAND through solid rock some 104 meters to the valley below.

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?s...

In 1485 Friedrich I let his army leader Hans von Drodt occupy the castle. von Drodt's possession was entirely at the expense of Weissenburg Abbey. The Abbey, which was under the impression that they would be getting Berwartstein back after the intervention, was not pleased at all, and began a nearly continuous whining to the Emperor, Cure prince, and Pope for Hans' removal. This petitioning never succeeded.

Friedrich I installing von Drodt in Berwartstein was likely to put a loyal buffer between the constantly feuding von Drachenfels and Weissenburg Abbey. The setup was fine with Hans von Drodt. He disliked Weissenburg and the Abbott due to past familial difficulties (The Abbot had spoken badly of his family in the court of the Emperor), and could care less for the von Drachenfels, who he considered falsely religious cowards. Hans had the support of his Cure prince, a mission to fulfill, a feeling of being entitled to his reward, and most importantly- a "legal" deed.

Hans perhaps was a bit paranoid, with an enemy who was always at the Emperors ear, so close his castle. He rebuilt Berwartstein to a foreboding condition, equipping it for all types of defense with every conceivable war structure of the time. These actions strengthened Berwartstein to the point of being relatively impregnable to all known weaponry and tactics.

After the surety of the castle, Hans von Drodt, also known as von Trotha, even better known as Hans Trapp, began a guerilla war against Weissenburg Abbey. Hans went after them using every dirty trick in the book. He removed whole localities from under their dominion, damaged trade, robbed, kidnapped and harassed officers and merchants. Generally making a major nuisance of himself. Naturally, the Weissenburgers were angry... and this time, they went straight to the Pope.

The result was Hans being excommunicated, but had no success in getting rid of him. Mainly because the Pope insisted the Cure prince disassociate himself publicly from his friend Hans von Drodt, which he was not likely to do, even though he and the ENTIRE PALATINATE were excommunicated as a result. This caused Hans much embarrassment and loss of honor, making matters worse for the Weissenburgers, who he now considered less than worthy of contempt.

Hans was later declared an enemy of the church. When summoned to Rome to appear before the papal court and stand trial on his faith before Pope Alexander VI, he flatly refused to go, stating, " No thank you, I don't speak the language". He then writes the Borgia Pope a bold and immoral letter of refusal (something about "kiss my ass") and berating the Pope for daring to question his Christianity. (love this guy)

However, because of all this, the Emperor was forced either to do something about it, or accept permanent excommunication of the ENTIRE EMPIRE and bad relations with the powerful church. To placate them, he enacted a royal ban on Hans von Drodt. As a result of this banning from the royal court, the already disgraced Hans had lost any possibility of rising further in the empire.

In response Hans became extraordinarily nasty. The raids and terrorizing continued with even more destruction than previously. For example, he built a dam on the Wieslauter river above Weissenburg, which damaged its mills and ruined its shipping. After the dam was full to the brim he burst it, causing the Abbey and much of the country to be flooded and destroyed. This also demolished the years crops. Then on Christmas Eve, with 2000 men, surrounded and burned the villages of Weissenburg. He and his men took many inhabitants prisoner, including the Abbott, releasing them only in return for a high ransom. He took a great many of the town's nobles and scholars to his torture room. Although Emperor Maximilian I and the King of France objected strongly to this, and once met to discuss dealing forcefully with Hans, he remained untouched under the protection of the Cure prince. Quite to the contrary, because of his "diplomatic abilities" he was even sent as an Ambassador to the French royal court, where he experienced high honors and was named a Knight d'Or (of the Golden Fleece).

The successor of Cure prince Friedrich, Philip II, likewise von Drodt's friend, sold him both Berwartstein and Castle Grafendahn, along with all rights pertaining to them. This treatment by the French and Cure prince was probably due to the realization that such a troublemaker would be a good ally, and could weaken the empire's power. (as well as their private delight in his actions due to their own shared difficulties with the church)

Hans von Trotha was the actual and original "bogey man", the Black Rider. This is the same Hans Trapp who in Alsacian and Weissenburger Christmas legend accompanies St. Nicholas as a sort of Anti-Klaus, punishing (and stealing) bad little children, yet rewarding good ones with candy. Because of his excommunication and status as enemy of the church, it was rumored that he had sold his soul to the devil. He is reputed to have been a terror, everything from the devil to a flesh eating monster.

Legend says he still haunts the land every December as a demonic spirit somewhat akin to a vagabond, black wolf, or shape shifter, devouring hapless fools that wander into his path, and errant children. If St Nick leaves you nothing, chances are Hans Trapp will be along to collect you soon.

Hans was shunned by the church for most of his life, though he was a man of faith, attending services regularly in his own chapel. (which he had built after being declared an enemy of the church) Two years after his death in the year 1505, his long held excommunication was dissolved by the Bishop von Speyer. Hans may be laid to rest in the chapel at the foot of Berwartstein, but his presence is definitely felt around the castle.

After the death of Hans' only son Christoph (63) in the year 1545, the possession of Berwartstein went to his son-in-law Friedrich von Fleckenstein. Under the Fleckenstein's rule the castle might have experienced relatively calm times, but unfortunately, also its end.

Lightning supposedly strikes it soon therafter, and to a large extent it is destroyed in the resulting fire.

Inge H. wrote: "There is no end to your imagination, Terri. First, horses, now castles.

Well, I actually lived in one from 1952 to 1958 - most of the cities had been bombed and housing was scarce. It sounds grand..."


One thing we miss here in the US is castles. So many of us have been struck by the beauty of those which are still being lived in as well as the exciting ruins. Archaeology is another of myinterests. I wanted to study it.ut Dad who held the pursestrings said "No', it is not a field for a woman??? I love Scotland and recently had my DRA analyzed and found a couple of Scottish ancestors. There is just something so beautiful about Scotland. I so wish I could go, and yes, Inge, to Austria too, because of all the music there. All I have are my dreams. It is in my genes, though, for I also found Irish, English, Swiss, Italian, Romanian, Prussian and some others in my history. A true melted pot, I am-LOL.

Strange, I had to fiddle with my post to get it to post and now it comes out in script-Oh well.

Wow you are a melting pot of bloodlines, Anne.

Monet. Excellent posts! Catching up on evetyone's group activity while I slept. Shall give your info a proper look over later today. Looking forward to it. :-)

Just checking on the photo link...working?

Monet, that was a fantastic account;you really are a history buff.

Despite our fascination with castles and the then so-called nobility, I think we are fortunate to be living in the times we are now. Just think, we could have been swept away (bloomers and all) by brutes such as so thoughtfully pictured by Terri et al in the bodice ripping thread.

Your Facebook link is working. I took a peak (don't want to look properly as I want to see them in context with the tale later on when I read your posts).

.Inge said: Just think, we could have been swept away (bloomers and all) by brutes such as so thoughtfully pictured by Terri et al in the bodice ripping thread.

Like livestock in bloomers.
I thank goodness I am born in a modern time. I could not handle being livestock. :/

Thanks Inge. I'm lucky to have very patient friends who calmly hold my jacket while I freak out over "plies of rocks". These are also the same friends who know not to call me for 2-3 days while I obsessively research the "rocks" in question.
While trekking through the countryside last month I ran into a huge plot of WWII dragons teeth! (...and lost my mind haha)

Monet wrote: "Sorry for the lag Terri, those duck and cover drills will really waste a day...
Sunday was a perfect day to visit the medieval Berg Berwartstein near Dahn Germany. First mentioned by Barbarossa in ..."


this is awesome Monet! I finally got here to read it and scroll through the photos via your Facebook link.

You have made my day. :)
The photos are great and scrolling through them after reading the history was special.
I have heard and read about the Robber Knights and it was so enjoyable for me to them get a refresher via your information and then see your photos to go along with it.

The torture chamber gave me the creeps. I wonder if that rack is the same rack that has always been there (since it was made) or whether it is from somewhere else and they brought it in for tourists?

Terri wrote: "Monet wrote: "Sorry for the lag Terri, those duck and cover drills will really waste a day...
Sunday was a perfect day to visit the medieval Berg Berwartstein near Dahn Germany. First mentioned by ..."

I'm not sure the torture rack is original...no blood stains. Just sayin.

lol. :) That is just as well! Although. Do they bleed on the rack? I think it is all brutalised from within.

Inge H. wrote: "Absolutely. "Hof" means courtyard. The most fameous is Vienna's "Hofburg" - the "in-town" Hapsburg residence. It then developed that when one talked about the "Hof" - it meant actually the court it..."

I just went to Vienna and saw the Palace while I was there. Amazing history to it, the whole complex being built over so many years.

Dawn wrote: I just went to Vienna and saw the Palace while I was there. Amazing history to it, the whole complex being built over so many years

Dawn, I hope you also had a chance to go out to Schoenbrunn on the environments of Vienna; that's a really awesome place, with the Gloriette on top of the hill overlooking the park and water features. Of course, then there are also the Upper and Lower Belvederes in town - where they have "Sound and Light" performances in the summer.
Hope you enjoyed your trip.

Any pictures of the palace, Dawn? :-)

Terri wrote: "Any pictures of the palace, Dawn? :-)"

You may have to copy and paste if it doesn't link - but worth if you are really interested:

http://www.schoenbrunn.at/en/
site has "moving pictures..." of Schloss Schoenbrunn, the suburb seat of the Habsburgs.

http://www.hofburg-wien.at/en/
In-Town residence and now conference center; Spanish Riding School rink, etc.

Beam me up, Kaiser Franz Josef!

Oh my. Breathtaking. I don't know what to say. Those images on the websites have left me virtually speechless.

Lovely photos Dawn! Wow...

I've been to both palaces - just breathtaking. Although possibly my favorite is the Hohensalzburg. I spent a couple of summers in Austria; I used to jog up to the fortress and literally go running around the battlements.

http://www.salzburg-burgen.at/en/hohe...

There's also the Hohenwerfen at Werfen just a little outside Salzburg - they hold falconry displays there, and there's a system of huge underground ice caves to tour. I miss Austria!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hohenwer...

Kate wrote: "I've been to both palaces - just breathtaking. Although possibly my favorite is the Hohensalzburg. I spent a couple of summers in Austria; I used to jog up to the fortress and literally go runnin..."

What a place!

When you jogged around the battlements, did you look out and visualise your army lining up against the invading army? :-)

This is over 40 yrs ago now, but I loved the Salzburg castle. Also Ludwig II's three palaces are a must see if you are ever in the region Neuschwanstein by far the most famous, Herrenchiemsee set on island in the middle of a lake, and Linderhof the only one completed.

I also liked the Nuremberg castle during the Kriskindel Mart - one night the would turn out the all the lights in the old city and children would walk up the hill with candles to the castle.

Also three - four yrs ago, we took a trip to England and wandered around Warwick and Kenilworth castles as well as the Tower of London.

Kenilworth is a ruin, but it was fun to wander around. The Madam Tussauds people now owns Warwick and have restored different parts of it to different configurations - 1470s and 1890s

Terri wrote: "Any pictures of the palace, Dawn? :-)"

Unfortunately I wasn't allowed to take photos inside but I did see the exhibit on Empress Elizabeth and it was great.
We only had 48 hours in Vienna so we didn't see any of the palaces or castles outside of town but we did see the Belvedere but the Opera House was my favorite even though I didn't have enough time to see an Opera.

happy wrote: "This is over 40 yrs ago now, but I loved the Salzburg castle. Also Ludwig II's three palaces are a must see if you are ever in the region Neuschwanstein by far the most famous, Herrenchiemsee set ..."

I really want to see the Salzburg Castle but that will have to be another trip.

happy wrote: "This is over 40 yrs ago now, but I loved the Salzburg castle. Also Ludwig II's three palaces are a must see if you are ever in the region Neuschwanstein by far the most famous, Herrenchiemsee set ..."

Swan Lake!

This is the only castle I have been to. :( When I was little. I wouldn't grace its stoop as an adult. Heaven's no!
It is only 45 minutes away...and is built out of concrete blocks. *sigh*
http://www.sunshinecastle.com/

I've been to Alton Towers in England....... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alton_To...

There are still some ruins there amoung the rides. :D

@Terri - yes, I did envision my armies lining up! Occupational hazard, I suppose.

Well, I need to dig up my scrapbooks and upload some photos of castles. I visited the UK and while there saw some castles, specifically Dover, but also, earlier, the Rock of Cashel.

Castles, being military installations, were usually constructed in commanding locations, easily defensible with a clear view of the countryside.

I've always wanted to visit Harlech castle, which withstood a seven year old siege (the song 'Men of Harlech' was written about this time. Edward I's 'Marcher' castles are splendid (deserving a far better maker) Some day I'll visit them.

I did visit Dover Castle, after reading some of its history. There are places in this world that are 'good'. I mean places that seem to convey strength during turmoil, serenity in th emidst of hardship. Dover gave me that feeling. (I felt it also at Canterbury Cathedral and as Notre Dame de Paris).

It commands a view of the English channel, and it is occupied today. Under Hubert de Burth's governance, it withstood attack. I had the feel of a place that was secure, that had seen great and terrible hardhship and triumphed. The breakfast I ate there i the officer's mess, was one of the best I've eaten (at least for spiritual nourishment) in any journey I've taken.

Here's a link to a photo:

Kate wrote: "@Terri - yes, I did envision my armies lining up! Occupational hazard, I suppose."


Inspirational though. :)

You know I have been waiting patiently to see some of your photos, Diana. :)

Mea culpa. They are in my garage, in scrap books after several moves. I must scan them (and shall do so) when I get home from visiting elderly (and delightful) parents...

Oh, I hate doing that. :(