The Sword and Laser discussion

I just started reading "Hyperion" yesterday. Before I started I noticed several threads here discussing people's displeasure with the book. I have to be honest, it scared me a little.

I'm glad I ignored that. I'm currently 1/2 way through "The Poet's Tale" and enjoying the book. Sure, it's plenty of world building, but I find it a fascinating world. But more than that there is much to be learned about the characters telling the tales. The diversity of the group intrigues me.

I just felt the balance of opinion was rather lopsided. I find much to like about the book.

I am becoming protective of my left eye though.

Yes, I really loved the book up until the end, which left me cold, but I still loved the rest of book, so it's nice to hear good things about it too. :D I really liked the way each tale was told in a slightly different way, with a slightly different feel, which I thought lent something extra to the characterisation. Even though I found the poet's tale hard to read, the pretension of the poet was so perfect for his character that even though I hated it, I also liked and easily forgave it. The world was certainly an interesting place, and filled with lots of images which really lodged themselves inside my mind, like the cruciform in the first story. I couldn't recommend the book right now since I'm still sore from the ending, but it is certainly not without it's good points - far from it.

The anti-Hyperion members were probably more vociferous that the pro-Hyperion members but there was a lot of love for the book amongst the haters, mehs and lemmers.

I gave it 5 stars (Though if Goodreads allowed I would have given it 4½, it's great but not perfect)

There should be an option to have a Goodreads Group rating.

Same here really enjoyed Hyperion and went on to the next book immediately.

I'm kind of "meh" on Hyperion. Maybe "Fall of Hyperion" will push me solidly in one direction or the other.

I wouldn't feel too protective if I were you, even though it can suck to see haters hatin' on something you love. Certainly it seems lemmers are a noisy bunch, but this is the internet after all. It definitely has enough loud devotees elsewhere to convince me to finish it despite very much not loving it.

It was also good enough to get nominated and voted in as Laser pick.

Maybe this thread can turn into what I wanted my lem thread to be... Could those of you who enjoy the book make some noise and tell us what you liked about it?

I never intended mine to get hijacked the way it did, I wanted to discuss what I didn't like with those that did like Hyperion!

FertileSpade wrote: "Ruth, not sure what it is you don't like about the ending (please don't tell me :)) but if its the cliffhanger/unfinished aspect of it you might want to check out the interview with Dan Simmons that Aloha posted in another thread. Seems Hyperion and Fall of Hyperion were written as one book and then the publisher got ahold of it."

Fear not, I will not tell you, and I hope if you go in with lower expectations you might not feel let down by the ending at all, but I was fully aware that one book was split into two, and still felt disappointed by the ending, though I'm hoping the following book will help. The ending just didn't meet my expectations, which had been built by an otherwise excellent book.

The thing I liked the most about book 1 was book 4.
Book 1 on its own is world building and character development. By book 4, book 1 is a very different "peeled" onion. I would possibly consider re reading book 1 if I didn't trust my memory and wasn't so task oriented that I have an aversion to rereading generally.

I really liked this book. With so much of the books attention going to events in the past and a very unsure future, your imagination really kicks into overdrive. It's hard to explain: I've read prose more to my liking but my mind keeps wandering back to the story and the ideas posed within. I don't even mind the treeship idea anymore ;)

Its my favorite series of all time. I first read Hyperion some 20 years ago and have re-read all four books multiple times now.

I also love the series and have read it multiple times. I think if even a few people on the group also discovered this for the first time and loved it, then it was well worth having as the group pick.

Its definitely a little slow in places and not for everbody, but its worth sticking with it because the payoff is huge.

I love the multiplicity of styles, how things are not 'spoon fed' to you and you need to think to connect the dots, the sheer number of ideas and concepts that really make you think about them afterwards (yes they may not be all original ideas but there is always an interesting twist), and also the range of emotion the book makes you feel. I'm with Jules in that this book/series is proper fuel for your imagination.

If I compare this to typical sci fi/fantasy fare out there, its in a different league to most

Nimrod, if you want to know why I liked Hyperion, I'm happy to share. Sorry, it's really long, but you did ask! I'll put it behind a spoiler tag to shorten it in the list.
(view spoiler)[
I thought the universe Simmons created was really interesting, and was intrigued from the start about the Time Tombs, why the Consul was alone on an uninhabited world when he was called, who the other pilgrims would be, and which one would turn out to be the spy. Of course, I've read lots of science fiction over the years, so nothing in the opening was off-putting for me, but I can see how it might be for someone not familiar with the conventions of the genre.

I was really surprised to read that so many people found the first story boring. I found the priest's tale really gripping and creepy, with a lot of vivid imagery that I doubt I will ever forget. And it raised a lot of interesting questions about religion, resurrection, and what makes a person who they are.

The second story was the one I really didn't enjoy. I thought Moneta was a psychopath, and didn't have much sympathy for Kassad, either.

The poet's tale was more interesting. I didn't much care for the character, but his story provided a lot of back story about what happened to the earth, how people colonized worlds, the creation of the Web, and the culture of the Hegemony. I thought the world-building in this story was really interesting and provided some depth to the reader's understanding of the Hegemony.

The story of Sol Weintraub was powerful, even for someone who isn't a parent. I really sympathized with both Rachel and her parents and what it must have been like for them.

Brawne Lamia's story was interesting because I enjoy a little hard-boiled detective fiction now and then, and because it filled in a lot of information about the AIs in the Web.

The story of Siri and Merin was an interesting exploration of time debt, and of how a charismatic person could weave a story that affected her whole world, even though it wasn't entirely true. The Consul's part of it, I admit, was a little disappointing, because even knowing the story of Siri and Merin, it was hard to fathom the Consul's motivations to do all the things he did, and it was all passed over so quickly. But it was also the first hint that the Ousters were nothing like how the Hegemony presented them to be.

The ending was, as many have observed, not really an ending at all, as it was never meant to be. Unlike others, I was not bothered by the Wizard of Oz reference--rather, it left me wondering what other parallels there might be, besides that they were going together to visit a powerful being to make a request of it. Maybe, like in The Wizard of Oz, they would all turn out to have in their own power the very thing they were seeking from the Shrike. Or perhaps the Shrike would give them a task, as the wizard demanded that Dorothy and her companions should kill the Wicked Witch of the West. Or perhaps the Shrike would see each of them alone, and appear different each time, as the wizard did in the book (though not in the movie). Or some other, more subtle, parallel.

Also I noticed some things in the book that I found interesting. The Shrike required that the number of pilgrims be a prime number. So there were 7 of them. But it was pointed out early on that Sol bringing Rachel along could make it 8, and doom their mission. Sol believes that Rachel, as a few-days-old infant, wouldn't count. But she wasn't the only addition to their party. We find out in the first story that Father Dure's cruciform, carrying his genetic code and able to resurrect him, is carried by Father Hoyt. That makes 9. Then we find out that Brawne Lamia is pregnant, which makes 10, and is carrying the personality of Johnny Keats in the shunt in her head, and that makes 11, and we're back to a safely prime number.

Two of the pilgrims, Brawne and Sol, are there entirely for the sake of someone else (Johnny and Rachel, respectively). Both of these actually carry the other person with them. Two of the pilgrims are there because of someone else, but for their own purposes (the Consul, who is there because of his grandparents, but whose desire is to destroy the Hegemony, and Father Hoyt, who is there because of Father Dure, but whose desire is freedom from the pain of the cruciform). Both of these carry the tale of the other person in the form of a journal. Two of the pilgrims are there for entirely personal reasons (Kassad, who wants revenge on Moneta and the Shrike, and the poet, who wants to finish his poem).

I found this symmetry interesting. (hide spoiler)]

I think if you look back at all the Hyperion threads, there were many more positive ones at the beginning of the discussion, and a more recent proliferation of negative threads in response to that. My overall impression is that more people liked this book than not.

(I'm with Rik and Ian - have loved this series for years, and this is my fourth or fifth reread. I'm about halfway through Fall now and debating whether I'm going to continue on with Endymion or switch over to Tigana.)

Jess wrote: "I think if you look back at all the Hyperion threads, there were many more positive ones at the beginning of the discussion, and a more recent proliferation of negative threads in response to that."

Interesting. I wonder if, like with me, the change came as more people came to the final tale/ending of the book, which most people seem to agree was at least in some way a weak point in the book. I wonder what could have been done to change that if the first two books had originally been intended to be separate. I'm looking forward to seeing how my perspective changes when I read the next book. I'm starting to feel more enthusiasm for it again.

@Tora, What's funny is that the way you describe the book makes me want to go read the one you are talking about, then I realize that I actually did start reading it and I had a completely different feeling...

Seeing as though I already mentioned what I didn't like, here is what I did like...

I liked not having just one character that was important throughout the book. While I couldn't finish Hyperion, I would have ended it much faster had the story revolved just around Father Dure or Father Hoyt... (I am one of those that found that tale boring and extremely predictable...)

I did however like the whole "Christianity is dieing in the future" stuff though, not because I'm a jerk and think religion sucks, but because I would expect Religion to start being pushed back in the world(s).

I totally Agree with the Kasaad's story, except I blamed him for his stupidity... I felt he was obsessing over someone that wouldn't even tell him her name, let alone a single word until he met her again later on.

As for the poet's tale, Alas, this is where I parted ways with Hyperion, but not because I didn't like the poet as many people here say. I actually found him the most interesting character, and I stopped halfway through it! Why? Because at this point I felt as though I was back at school trying to cram a book for a test...

Tigana on the other hand... Let's just say, I'm halfway done with it and I have loved almost every moment of it!

I loved Hyperion because I'm a sucker for interesting world-building.

I also loved the narrative structure allowing for all the different story types. It's not the kind of gimmick that would work in most books, but it was great for Hyperion. I'm a fifth of the way through Rise of Hyperion and already missing it.

Also, it's been a while since I read a good space opera book, and this is definitely a good one.

Interesting piont about the prime numbers, Tora!

FertileSpade wrote: "i like the tone of this thread - Opposing viewpoints CAN be discussed without people getting nasty! :)"

That's all I wanted, I was ashamed to be the OP on that other thread... :-/

That being said, the issue with Moneta and the timeline was bs to me... it seemed like simmons wanted us to take it as a leap of faith an trust him it was possible... I wanted to keep this thread positive though so I chose not to repeat that sentiment the first time. It was also a small issue I had with it as I am a firm believer that as an author you can write whatever you want in your story.

Adding to my voice to counter Lem-ment. Thought Hyperion was excellent.

FertileSpade: "what i enjoy most about Hyperion is the mysteries that are being cultivated. it reminds me of the beginning of Lost when i had no clue what the smoke monster was or what was in the buried structure that Locke found. My imagination is running wild with it. i keep ruminating on it trying out different theories in my mind."

Yes, this was a big part of the appeal for me as well.

And I think Simmons did a masterful job blending different genres into the overall science fiction-framework: the priest's tale is a 'stranded in the wilderness with natives' adventure tale that turns into a horror tale; Brawne's tale is a noir, complete with a ravishing stranger with a mysterious past visiting the hard-bitten detective's office in its first scene; Kassad's tale is an action-packed war adventure mixed with the cosmic mystery of Moneta, etc.

Note that I didn't have to like the character telling the story, to enjoy the story itself.

I found each tale well-written and gripping in its own right (except maybe the Poet's, which was a bit tedious), and all the more fascinating for being pieces of a larger Shrike-puzzle, with a looming intergalactic war on top.

I still find it funny that I actually liked the poet and everyone else seemed to struggle with that tale... Although that is where I stopped so I guess I can't really say anything about that...

I loved Hyperion. The only problem that I had was the ending. It felt awkward and rushed. I know that's probably because Simmons did not intend to end it there, so he probably had more a lead-in to Fall of Hyperion in the original, since it was supposed to be one book.
On that note, I ordered the Hyperion omnibus since I got Hyperion from the library, and unfortunately they did not have Fall of Hyperion, and if I am going to own it, I want the whole thing. I got it used on Amazon for a couple bucks in good condition.

Nimrod wrote: "@Tora, What's funny is that the way you describe the book makes me want to go read the one you are talking about, then I realize that I actually did start reading it and I had a completely different feeling..."

Yeah, that can certainly happen! I've had reactions very different from others on other books we've read. People have different tastes and interests, and come to books with different experiences. The Magicians was a really good example for that, where some people complained that Quentin was totally unrealistic, while others said that Quentin strongly reminded them of themselves or people they knew and he was one of the most realistic characters they've encountered.

When it comes to matters of taste, there's really no right and wrong. If you're not enjoying something, why torture yourself with it? So if you weren't enjoying Hyperion, lemming it is a good choice. Like it or hate it, praise it or criticize it, it's all good until someone claims that their personal taste is a universal indicator of what is objectively good or bad. Then we get problems.

I read Tigana when it first came out, which is long enough ago that I don't really remember it very well, except that I liked it. I got the audiobook, and having just finished an audiobook about half an hour ago, I'm downloading Tigana now and will start it later today.

Perhaps we'll agree more about that one. :)

Tora wrote: "When it comes to matters of taste, there's really no right and wrong. If you're not enjoying something, why torture yourself with it? So if you weren't enjoying Hyperion, lemming it is a good choice. Like it or hate it, praise it or criticize it, it's all good until someone claims that their personal taste is a universal indicator of what is objectively good or bad. Then we get problems."

THANK YOU! That's been exactly my point over at another thread Nick started... No point at all at trying to finish a book you can't enjoy! And I never said the book was garbage, just that I didn't like it, so I've been looking to intelligently discuss my opposing view!

I've actually got The Magicians in my "To Read" queue so if I ever get to it I'll see where I go with that one!

I Lemmed it the first time I read it. Could not get through the Priest's tale. I am only on the Poet's tale right now, but the story is growing on me.

One other book that did this to me was Lord Foul's Bane. I started and stopped it 3 or 4 times before finally getting into the series. Enjoyed all the books right up until the end. Hated the ending almost as much as I did for the Triumph of the Darksword.

I love Hyperion, but there were a couple of things that bother me. The 'skipping' in the end that just felt silly, and I'm apparently not the only one.
The other thing that got to me was that I don't think that the first scene fit that well with the rest of the book. It's not until you get to the last story that it starts to make sense. While reading the first 'scene', with piano playing in a seemingly hostile environment built the expectations of a grandiose space opera with great action scenes... which off course never came.

The reason that I still loved the book was very well captured by Joe: "I loved Hyperion because I'm a sucker for interesting world-building."
I'm a firm believer in that there is no ONE truth, but rather that truth depends on how you 'measure' it - sort of a macro-version of the uncertainty principle.
This fits very well with the world building of Hyperion, where each pilgrim have their own view on Hyperion and the Shrike. Each point of view creates a facet of the truth.

...also does anyone else find it strange that this book could win a Hugo with the ending the way it is?

I just finished and I thought it was great. I'll just paste my goodreads review.

(BEGIN)

If I hand't been warned about the ending, I would have been furious. Luckily I was warned so it didn't hurt too bad. Apparently this and the sequel, The Fall of Hyperion, were written as one book but the publisher split them up, so the ending isn't an ending at all.

It's told as a frame story Canterbury style, and I thought I might not like that but it serves as a great way to create a fuller picture of the world. Each story comes from a different corner of the universe and fleshes out a different aspect of the world. It's really effective. If you're familiar with long-form improv at all, it also has a similar feeling to a Harold. All the elements start far out from each other and all crash together. I also thought the multiple stories helped create an enjoyable pace and sense of progress. You finish a relatively short enjoyable story, and then return to the main story. The only real trade off is that you don't really care about a character until you hear their story.

The world is huge and there's a lot of mystery and I want even more background on the history and spread of it all. I don't need it I'm just saying it's good that I want it.

Some people didn't like some of the stories but I didn't have a problem with any of them. I think the most often disliked was the poets tale, and I guess it wasn't as good when compared to the others, but came to an interesting head.

I'm realizing now that much of it was pretty sad. It's interesting that the sadness wasn't overpowering. I guess since there's still a sense of taking action or motion at least, you don't get bogged down by it.

I'll have to read the sequel pretty much immediately because the whole book is basically a lead up to one moment and that moment is just over the horizon.

(END)

I'm going to dive right in to Fall of Hyperion. I have to know!

I thought it was a real pleasure to read a book by and author who can really write. Simmons is an excellent wordsmith evident in the differing styles of each tale. While I won't say I loved any of the characters, at least I didn't hate them all like I did with The Magicians. Four out of five stars from me.

Dustin wrote: "...
Some people didn't like some of the stories but I didn't have a problem with any of them. I think the most often disliked was the poets tale, and I guess it wasn't as good when compared to the others, but came to an interesting head.
..."

I also had issues with the poets tale, but not from how it was written - I just didn't find that character particularly likable. :-)

Martin wrote: "I also had issues with the poets tale, but not from how it was written - I just didn't find that character particularly likable. :-) "

I felt that was the point. =)

Brian wrote: "Martin wrote: "I also had issues with the poets tale, but not from how it was written - I just didn't find that character particularly likable. :-) "

I felt that was the point. =)"

I agree. I liked that he was an unlikable character, even though I hated him. I got thoroughly annoyed with the style in which he told his tale, and found it really hard to get through, like a lot of people, but it was so perfect for the character, so horribly pompous and annoying, that I couldn't fault it even though I hated that too. It was kind of fittingly horrible.

What people need to understand about Martin is that he is a character in need of redemption. He's made very unlikeable at first so that the reader will appreciate him if he changes for the better. I can't really say more without getting into spoilers.

I've decided to Lem Hyperion. I've been listening to the Audible version, so perhaps the delivery of the narration is getting me, but I just feel like I'm slogging through it. The Priest's Tale portion was really engaging, but the Soldier's Tale was really tough for me & although I finally just finished the Poet's section , I'm sick of his pontificating and am just too worn out to keep going. Maybe I'll try it again later. I rarely refuse to finish a book (especially if I bought it & didn't check it out from the library) but life is too short to read stuff for "pleasure" that I don't find interesting (quotes meaning I've def had to read books for school in the past that I didn't find interesting). I've heard the Saul & Brawne Lamia sections are good, so perhaps I'll *gasp* SKIP to those. Dunno. Eager to get started on the June book, though.

Ruth wrote: "Yes, I really loved the book up until the end, which left me cold, but I still loved the rest of book, so it's nice to hear good things about it too. :D I really liked the way each tale was told in..."

I definitely agree with you about the voices being perfect for each character. I felt like the characters were almost caricatures - they were just so intensely who they were. I found them very easy to imagine and liked the unique voice for each story.

FertileSpade wrote: "I'm two thirds through it and loving it! Ruth, not sure what it is you don't like about the ending (please don't tell me :)) but if its the cliffhanger/unfinished aspect of it you might want to che..."

That explains so much! To me the book didn't feel like a typical cliff-hanger, where the author has intentionally left you desperate to find out what's next. It felt more like he'd just stopped writing. Unfortunately my library didn't have the next book, but now I have to get my hands on it :)

And finally - my review is here, where I express some of these same ideas and also gush a little about the writing :)

I am usually a quick reader. I gobble them greedily, but this book will not let me do that. It is like a good whiskey that wants to be sipped, slowly.
I have just about finished the scholars tale, and it made me cry, in public.
The layers and discription and texture to this world are simply staggeringly good.
The use of food, and drink and music to set the scenes gives it a cinematic quality. I think when I finish this book I will read it again, and again and again.

Im onto the second book now but I realy enjoyed the first I enjoyed the frame story with each story building and adding tension to the over riding story, its very clever. His language is a bit high brow for me his vocabulary is huge thank god for the dictionary on my kobo.
Im very excited to see what happens next the first book promises so much lets hope that the second delivers aswell.

I just read the first one some time ago and I loved it. Will definitely want to get a hold of the rest of the series. I loved the stories, loved the emotions, loved the secret and the imagination. In other words - it was all I love in literature.

Chris wrote: "One other book that did this to me was Lord Foul's Bane. I started and stopped it 3 or 4 times before finally getting into the series. Enjoyed all the books right up until the end. Hated the ending"

You do know Donaldson went back and wrote three more books in that world, right?

@FirstName - I did see those but have not read them yet. What did you think of them?

Hyperion is one of my favorites. In addition to the world building, and the way the narratives are suited to the characters, I liked one thing enormously: The way that our view of the Hegemony gradually changes, over the course of the tales, from a science-fiction paradise into a static, parasitic culture ripe for destruction.