Fantasy Aficionados discussion

I've pulled the 2010 thread forward for ideas.

Please be considerate and mark spoilers!

Ideas from the prior thread: some questions to consider while you read and discuss. Doing so is totally optional, of course.

1. Setting: What are your thoughts about the setting of this book?

2. First Impression: Were you wowed at reading the first page of this story? Or less than impressed?

3. Characters: What do you think about the characters of this novel? Do you like or dislike them? Were they well-drawn?

4. Plot: Does this story have a strong plot? Do you like the plot?

5. Pacing: How does the pacing strike you with this novel? Too fast, too slow, perfect?

6. Underlying themes: What were the underlying themes in your opinion?

7. Overall impression: Did you like this story? Why or why not? What did you or didn’t you like about this story?

8. Would you read more books by this author? Can you recommend books like this to people who enjoyed this novel?

I read this once and probably won't be reading again. Especially now. But this was my first Kay book and I was impressed enough to read another but didn't think it shows off his true style. It wasn't very unique. Like he decided to write an adult fantasy mixing together the most known series. Lord of the Rings and Narnia. It was good though.

I thought Kay's work was superb in The Fionavar Tapestry (of which this is the first book), and his later work seemed a departure as he moved away from magic towards more realism. Personally, I found his other books to be less enticing, and this series to be better written than LOTR or Narnia.

I will pull it out for re-read once I finish that brick of The Way of Kings, but one of the things that struck me about the book is that it was one of the few fantasies that I've read that made me cry, even as I enjoyed or smiled at other sections. Kay is not afraid to have disaster befall his main characters. I think he also does well with the concept of sacrifice and honor.

My opinion only, standard disclaimers apply:

1. Setting: What are your thoughts about the setting of this book?
Standard alternate medieval world, with separately defined areas with elvish, dwarven, and Native American themed ethnic groups.

2. First Impression: Were you wowed at reading the first page of this story? Or less than impressed?
It starts off slow, in our world, and builds to the first action, when things begin to go wrong.


3. Characters: What do you think about the characters of this novel? Do you like or dislike them? Were they well-drawn?
The various characters started out prosaically, but appeared to be fairly unique by the story's end, even though their roles developed down classic fantasy career paths.


4. Plot: Does this story have a strong plot? Do you like the plot?
The plot was wonderfully scripted, with excellent foreshadowing and slow doling out of critical knowledge, so that there did not seem to be a sense of the dreaded infodump. At least that was my impression.


5. Pacing: How does the pacing strike you with this novel? Too fast, too slow, perfect?
The pacing was carefully plotted, and well designed for a specific beginning, middle, and end. It did not wander as much as many fantasy novels, even as the first book gathered apparently unrelated characters and set the stage for the rest of the story.


6. Underlying themes: What were the underlying themes in your opinion?
Victory can come despite terrible sacrifice, though many of the negative events in the first book do not play out until the second or third.

7. Overall impression: Did you like this story? Why or why not? What did you or didn’t you like about this story?
This is my favorite epic fantasy series, to date. Ever.


8. Would you read more books by this author? Can you recommend books like this to people who enjoyed this novel?
I have read several of his later works, including Tigana, A Song for Arbonne, The Lions of Ar-Rassan, the Sarantine Mosaic, and the Last Light of the Sun. I thought none of them held a candle to the Fionavar Tapestry, in terms of the elegance and crafting of the storyline and language.

I'll probably read in the next few weeks, I've been meaning to tackle it for quite a while.

I didnt care for this book or this trilogy.

Having read it after some of his later works it came off rather blah. It lacked the beauty and feel you find in Tigana or Lions, and seemed rather tropey and cliched.

Maybe at the time of original publication it was a fresh idea, but reading it now leaves me wanting.

Aww, that sucks. I hope I like it.. I've been wanting to read it forever. Maybe it'll help that I've only read Lions, Arbonne, and Tigana so far?

You might like it. I seem to be in the minority opinion with regards to this trilogy.

Probably because I went in expecting so much more. Doesn't help that I may have read it a long time ago and simply forgotten most of it.

I loved this book, and I also love Kay's later work.

For Fionavar, Kay drew off the mythic roots of MANY cultures, which is why it may seem tropish or cliche - but the depth of his awareness of may of the myths that preceded modern fantasy, and his ability to weave in so many of them (which will become plainer, if a reader chooses to pursue the complete trilogy) makes this a very neat, tight work, taken from a rich tradition.

I particularly liked that he pulled in some of the older references to matriarchal mythology and cultures that revolved around an earth mother concept. This trope is not something Tolkein used, and at the time Kay created this 'tapestry' of myths that all converge into one story, few of these avenues were pursued at all.

Every time I read this, I see another reference to the story bones we all draw from: everything from the celtic, to the faery tale, to the ancient welsh.

I don't think anyone needs to be aware of this to enjoy the story itself - but the very fact that what Kay set out to do was make a 'tapestry' of myths all come together - and when all gets said and done - reshaped to an astonishing finish - this work has always been dear to my heart for its beauty and as an appreciation of the cultural roots our genre springs from. I happened to have read very widely into these mythic works as a child, so each theme that was introduced as the story unfolded evoked a cry of delight.

No one has done it with the breadth and scope of Fionavar Tapestry. What also wins my applause is that Kay did it once, then moved on to other things. Many first novels don't hold up this well.

I also thought the way he presented the use of magic and the poignant (view spoiler)[ cost to Matt was unique. (hide spoiler)]

I haven't read anything by Kay before, but this book had me hooked right off. I am about half-way through and loving it so far.

So I finished the book and loved it. If this is an example of one of Kay's lesser liked works, then I am glad to start here and excited to read more by him.

Nicki--what a moving story. I wonder how The Summer Tree might stand the test of time for you? I've re-read a few favorites and it just wasn't the same. Then again, I've never lost enjoyment in The Blue Sword which has special meaning for me.

I've had this on the shelf for some time without reading it, and I dusted it off for this group read. I've read the first four chapters so far.

To tell the truth, I don't think I would continue if it weren't for the group read. To answer question 2 above, my first impression of the book is that I'm less than impressed. The initial situation is not all that interesting, and neither are the characters. The Narnia template is showing.

But mostly what I'll say at this point, so as not to get into spoilers, is that the writing is noticeably clumsy. No less than seven main characters are introduced at once, and to keep them straight I actually had to backtrack and keep a written list. In fact, at first, I had Marcus and Loren as separate characters. And, to top it off, the author doesn't even refer to them consistently. Sometimes by the first name, sometimes by the last name, and sometimes by both. C'mon. I wish a good editor had penciled this into shape.

And the constantly shifting points of view! It makes you appreciate how important a good POV is, to get you involved.

However, people say this is worth reading--it wouldn't still be around if it wasn't--so I will be continuing.

after reading Janny's comments, i don't have much to add except for What She Said. i love this trilogy. it was my first exposure to GGK, and went from there to Tigana, which i also loved.

that said, the first quarter (at least) of The Summer Tree was pretty tough-going for me. it was awkward. but after that rough start, i began to truly love it.

Didn't have much time for reading over the weekend, and only got through chapter 6. The book is interesting enough to keep going... (somewhat), but I continue to be struck by infelicities in the writing. For example, Kay, trying to avoid what he evidently considers to be a cliche, writes "his heart angled in his breast". LOL. And Kim's "bones seeming taut." As opposed to relaxed, I guess.

I think the author was trying too hard for originality in his language.

OK, I'm going to leave off the language gripes (unless Kay surpasses these gaffes, in which case I may have to share).

Those of you who love this book, forgive me. I'm only still at the beginning, you know.

I'm not very far into the book yet, and I have yet to be really drawn in. I trust mark's review that characters who first seem awkward and stilted grow to where they cannot be contained by the pages, but I don't think I'm at that spot in the book yet.

I definitely like the "earth magic" versus "mind magic" conflict. It's always interesting when a writer comes up with not one, but two solid magic systems that both have to operate in the same world.

I'm starting this today :)

Janny, I like your comment about Kaye creating a tapestry of myths. I'm about half through. The underlying feeling of melancholy and the way prices have to be paid are making this a step above a 'normal' fantasy story to me.

Janny-- I appreciate your insight--thanks for sharing. One of the aspects of the story that struck me on first reading was Kim's magic, and the magic of the earth. It was different from most of the 'high fantasy' I had read at the time, and remembered appreciating it, although not necessarily why. It would be a few years before anthropology class and myths.

I agree, Suzanne--I like the way there is a price to be paid, and not just in getting beat up or working hard for many years, but something above and beyond, touching on the spirit.

Suzanne wrote: "Janny, I like your comment about Kaye creating a tapestry of myths. I'm about half through. The underlying feeling of melancholy and the way prices have to be paid are making this a step above a ..."

Carol wrote: "Janny-- I appreciate your insight--thanks for sharing. One of the aspects of the story that struck me on first reading was Kim's magic, and the magic of the earth. It was different from most of the..."

Carol, I think you will find the book holds up nicely very re-read - it did for me. The more when you consider it was Kay's debut, as well.

Suzanne- I think this point is very often missed, or discounted when this series is weighed in. There are so many 'mythic' elements woven in - and some of the sources are very well used, and many others far off the beaten path, even still. I don't believe the story relies on scholarship at all to hold up - but the evident richness and diversity of the source material adds to the experience. I hesitate to list them, because some come in later in the trilogy and I'd not risk a spoil - but I recognized elements from ancient ANCIENT Greek, Welsh, Irish, Scandinavian, British - and yes, the earth magic and goddess lore was shunned by many other writers at the time.

Suzanne wrote: "Janny, I like your comment about Kaye creating a tapestry of myths. I'm about half through. The underlying feeling of melancholy and the way prices have to be paid are making this a step above a ..."

Hi Suzanne. I think you're dead-on with the feeling of melancholy. It appears (to me, at least) that one of the themes is sacrifice. Many of the characters have experienced sacrifice and I'm only 1/3 through. To me, that evokes early Anglo-Saxon literature, which dealt with loss, mortality, and sacrifice fairly often.

I just finished chapter 4 (about 10% in), and so far it hasn't made much of an impression on me. There are a lot of characters and the POV swaps around so frequently, I haven't had a chance to get a feel for any of them yet and they feel a little flat so far. I'm hoping that changes with time, as I continue reading.

For me, a lot of Kaye's books start really slowly - so many characters and so much description that I don't immediately get emotionally invested. However, always towards the end (so far with his books), I've grown to love/respect some characters deeply - moreso than in most books.

I just finished chapter 7 (42% complete).. (view spoiler)[It's finally starting to connect for me. The whole end of this chapter, with Kevin playing Rachel's song, and Paul hearing and going to the king and saying he would hang on the Summer Tree.. Very moving. I'm still not sure what the overarching plot is, but it's slowly unfolding and I'm starting to enjoy it. (hide spoiler)]

Dawn wrote: "I just finished chapter 7 (42% complete).. [spoilers removed]"

Sometimes the most moving works take time to build momentum - this is definitely true of Kay.

Well, it's not that I felt it was lacking in momentum.. I just didn't feel connected to the characters at all. There are a lot of them, and the POV bounces around a lot, so there wasn't time to form bonds with any of them. Plus, I was a little put off by (view spoiler)[the whole "hey, we're going to magically travel to a fantasy land, are you guys in?" thing. Seemed liked the all agreed really easily (except Dave of course) and then took it completely in stride that it wasn't all BS. (hide spoiler)] It started them all on a sort of unrealistic foot for me, so it took some time to get over that first impression.

Read chapter nine last night (last chapter in part II).. (view spoiler)[Man, the whole thing with Paul on the tree, reliving Rachel's death... The guilt he felt.. That was sort of powerful. I know all about that kind of guilt, so it was almost disturbing to me. But then when he was forgiven, when he realized he could be forgiven because he was only human, and humans err.. I felt actual relief for him. That's not an easy thing to accept.. That someone died because you're only human and couldn't be perfect enough to prevent it.. Most people don't ever get to a place where they can accept that, and it made me hope that someday I could maybe get there. Like I said.. It was sort of deep for me personally. (hide spoiler)]

Dawn wrote: "Well, it's not that I felt it was lacking in momentum.. I just didn't feel connected to the characters at all. There are a lot of them, and the POV bounces around a lot, so there wasn't time to for..."



That would certainly be a valid point.

With regard to your post, following - yes, Kay touches on powerful issues. It's one of the things that I find most meaningful. He doesn't just skim over the surface, or make the issue too pat.

Just finished, here's my review:

http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/...

I liked the review Dawn - I have been feeling the same way about being drawn in to the book as it progresses. I think Chapter 9 (view spoiler)[ and the views about guilt and forgiving oneself - that Dawn mentioned earlier (hide spoiler)] was when I really started liking it. And I'm loving the whole part with Dave - I think I prefer it to the first part, but part of that is the first part gave me context.

I'm about 80 pages in.

So far I think it's pretty. Kay has a beautiful way of writing. I also notice it's a really slow read for me! I'm only 80 pages in. ?! I read rather fast, lol.

I'm hoping this isn't going to be a cry book. I just got to the point (view spoiler)[that they tell you what the Summer Tree is. I kinda knew that's what it was...the book has a very solemn feel. (hide spoiler)] So please tell me that this isn't going to be a cry book. Cause if it is I want to put it down and go one to something else. I've got a Terry Prachett over here that I haven't read yet.

I also feel that it's strange (view spoiler)[that everyone is rather chill even though Dave is still missing. (hide spoiler)]

um... it sorta is. although it was actually in book 2 that i teared up. at a love scene! of all things. first time that happened, i swear.

I don't think it was cry at all... Lol. I mean it was touching, but nowhere near tears.

yeah, i guess maybe not. my mind jumped right to the second book. there is some dark stuff that happens, but nowhere near tears, until the 2nd book. keep plugging away, MrsJ!

and now that i'm thinking about the series, i teared up at a part in book 2, but i definitely cried at a sequence of events in book 3. that was fookin' emotional! other than book 3, i think the only other book i've cried over in who-knows-how-many years was Room.

Are yall sure? Cause I'm a wussy and I don't feel like crying right now. I just started to kick into a stride and I think crying would blow me, lol.

at this point, i dunno. things get dark & emotional, definitely. but like i mentioned, i didn't cry in this particular book. but like i also mentioned, i'm not a crier in general.

Dawn, are you? i think it is important that any self-identified criers answer this question!

I'm a crier and I didn't cry. I cried -- sobbed, really -- in Lions of al Rassan.

To me, the book has been solemn (at times) rather than sad - if that makes sense

I was doing great with this book--really loving it--until the end, with Jennifer. That's all I'm going to say (no spoilers!), but it really upset me. Still liked it and will definitely go on to book 2.

Ahhhhhhh....

So, let me say that I am enjoying Kay's work. I can see - even so far - why so many people like him. The writing is crisp and there's a mystery afoot. Kay's storytelling is great and I love the way things are slowly unfolding.

But I'm just getting out of a major reading funk. Crytime would put a major crimp in that, lol. I have to think about this.

mark wrote: "Dawn, are you? i think it is important that any self-identified criers answer this question!"

Pffft, then I'm a bad person to answer it. I'm a self-identified cold hearted non-crier :P

MrsJoseph wrote: "Ahhhhhhh....

So, let me say that I am enjoying Kay's work. I can see - even so far - why so many people like him. The writing is crisp and there's a mystery afoot. Kay's storytelling is great a..."

Books that are 'cry books' leave you there, wallowing in the tragedy and show you futility. Books that give meaning to events lift you out, show you the triumph or the change.

I don't pick up a Kay title if I don't want a moving read. But he doesn't ever leave you empty-handed. I'd say this trilogy is a poignant story - you will be moved, but I didn't find it 'depressing' in any way. The beauty is there, always, and the meaningful triumph.

There were points in the third book that made me cry for the incredible resolution.

I didn't cry during this book, but there were moments in books 2 and 3 that made me tear up, not because they made me sad, but because they were hopeful and glorious. I'm funny that way.

Why bother to read a book that doesn't move you in some way? I hardly ever do unless I'm bored to death and just want to pass the time. Or if I'm bound and determined to finish something to see what everyone's raving about.

Sandra aka Sleo wrote: "Why bother to read a book that doesn't move you in some way? I hardly ever do unless I'm bored to death and just want to pass the time. Or if I'm bound and determined to finish something to see w..."

Different books for different moods.

This is my first time reading The Summer Tree, and I think it's brilliant. At first, I didn't expect much from it because it seemed to move pretty slow, but I was pulled in to the story quickly. I love how Kay sets up each character and story line, then eventually all of the threads meet when you least expect it.
In the beginning of the book Dave was my least favorite character, but now he has become the one I connect to the most. He doesn't seem to be the selfish, stick-in-the-mud anymore.

Summer Tree was one of the first books from Kay that I read and I found it great. It is a lot like Tolkien and very classic in its story and characters.

I found it hard to get past his repeating Paul Schafer over and over. Everyone else was mentioned by their first name, but every time that character showed up it was Paul Schafer this, Paul Schafer that. It marred the book for me. Thankfully the rest in the trilogy were written much better.