The Sword and Laser discussion

I'm trying, I am. I was about 10% into the book, when I just couldn't take anymore and started to read Kim Stanley Robinson's 2312(which was a mistake in and of itself)

So I when back to Tigana I was 5% further in when I gave up and re-read Leviathan Wakes in expectation of Caliban's War.

I tried again and got in another couple of % before I got frustrated and 10% or so before I retired back to China Mieville's latest Rail Sea.

I started reading it again on Friday and didn't get far so I re-read Joe Abbercrombie's "Best Server Cold" I've started reading it again today, but... China Mieville's Embassytown is in my kindle queue.

For the review show, my review so far

- Language is stilted and feels forced. Not the accents(tho in literature this is a pet hate of mine)but the form of language he uses it seems amateurish

- Characters seem to be largely cookie cutter but with no flavor to make them unique. Quite disappointing

- So slow so damn slow, I think I'm about 20% into the book and the most interesting thing i know about the world is that evil dictators enforce a legal drinking age.

- anyways. My thoughts for the little they are worth.

Darren wrote: "Brian wrote: "I'm trying, I am. I was about 10% into the book, when I just couldn't take anymore and started to read Kim Stanley Robinson's 2312(which was a mistake in and of itself)

So I when bac..."

I dont know what your talking about... innocent look

+Darren, I'm not very far into 2312, but I'm enjoying it. It doesn't habe quite the same mechanic, but the naming of the chapters after characyers of importance is william faulkner esk as in As I Lay Dying

I have enjoyed contemplating this

+Darren What would you like to see in Tigana, for it to get better?

I am too facinated by how humans have adapted to life on Mercury. Maybe 2312 will get better for you. B-)

I also gave up on Tigana about a week ago. I had similar problems. I read all the way to somewhere in chapter 9 and just had to put it down. I felt I had given the book a fair shake and decided that it was just not for me.

I think it's a definite flaw for a book to take so long to get any sort of plot on the go. I understand the need to build up the world and characters first for the story this books now seems to be building towards, but that is one thing sub-plots are great for. I think an interesting one could and should have been introduced in the beginning to give us something to hang all the descriptions on until the main plot picks us up.

Personally, I've met my first two interesting characters in Dianora and Brandin. I dread returning to the rest of the crew who I have little interest in. We'll see.

I gave up on Tigana. After finishing 2 other books in the meantime, it became a chore to try to read it. I just kept remembering that line they read in one of the S&L shows on Geek and Sundry.... something about if you don't like a book it wasn't written for you...

Anyway, I have moved on from that and am happily entrenched in another book.

Walrus wrote: "+Darren What would you like to see in Tigana, for it to get better?

I am too facinated by how humans have adapted to life on Mercury. Maybe 2312 will get better for you. B-)"

**** mild 2312 spoilers like really really mild ****

2312 did not get better i finished it. It had some, if im quite frank, extremely questionable moral decisions in it.
The graphic and repeated explanations of sexual and gender orientation seemed completely out of place.

But most importantly the novel had no... point to it. There was what 4 or 5 chapters about whistling, and bird DNA and how that made people better whistlers.

I will go to my grave with the Lock and Key scene in my head, and not in a good way.

*** End spoilers ***

Yeah so all of those books mentioned are books i have started and finished while "reading" Tigana. If it counts i have also finished the audio book of Blue Remembered Earth.

Honestly, I think 2312is bubble gum candy.

I wonder if we fans are overanalyzing these books just a little bit.

what do you expect from our hosts, tom and veronica?

It's been a long time since I've read Tigana, but when I read it I was drawn in from the start and never bored. I still rank it among my favorite books. I agree Dianora and Brandon are the best characters, but I didn't really think any of them were "cookie cutter".

I had a hard time in the first 5 chapters with even understanding what was going on let, plus I was frustrated that just as I was getting into a character we'd leave them completely behind. Once it became clear what the title was about though that all changed. I'll admit that there were times that I've gotten frustrated with how closed the author keeps the plot from you, but the characters kept me going.

I can see why some people would find this a tough read, but the characters, the writing style and the general real feel of the story is what has kept me fascinated with this book and author. I'm about 8% from the end now and struggling to put it down to go to work. Now that I'm here, I'm also loving that I really don't know what is going to happen in the end. I don't know this author and I have no idea if the ending is going to work for me, but I'm curious!

+Mel I like your comment.

[We need goodreads.com to give us some form of a like or +1 button]

I'm still struggling back at chapter 3. I want to read further, since from the sounds of this thread, it gets better, but every time I pick it up, I put it back down within 10 minutes, bored. I was like this with Chapter 1 of Hyperion though, and by the end of that book, I couldn't put it down! *picks Tigana back up*

I think people either like his prose or find it boring. Tigana is his most famous. If you don't like Tigana, chances are you won't like his other books. A Goodreads friend find The Fionavar Tapestry a dreadful bore.

Honestly, it got better for me. This is not one of those books almost universally loved by everyone, and even some of the people who love it, don't love all its parts equally. But that's okay.

It was hard for me in the beginning, but I liked it enough to go on. After more than 50% of the book, I had my first "I can't put this down now" moment. And even now I have some "I dread to pick this up" moments, but they are gone soon enough. Today, I woke up and after grabbing my phone and doing the usual routine of checking social networks (guilty), I opened the ebook app without even getting up from the bed, which is a first for me. Then I rememebered it's monday…

I would probably not read this book if it weren't for The Sword & Laser, and I'm glad that I'm doing it. This is a book I want to reread, knowing what I know about the plot now.

Walrus wrote: "

[We need goodreads.com to give us some form of a like or +1 button]"

I agree Walrus! I've often wanted to like or + a comment.

Ruth wrote: "I think it's a definite flaw for a book to take so long to get any sort of plot on the go. I understand the need to build up the world and characters first for the story this books now seems to be ..."

Yeah, I can definitely see that. There are the initial reveals that set a vague course for the book, but there were times where Alessan and Baerd were playing so close to vest with their secrets, that I got a little annoyed and thought, "Come on, you really couldn't say something sooner??" But overall, I was really interested in the turns it took, and I don't think the characters were too cookie-cutterish; if anything, he played with our expectations of them and made us question them, like with Alessan and his crusade.

I guess I'm still a bit confused about what problem more than a few people had with the language. Was it all the talk about emotions and Devin's heart breaking? Or is it in his description? I feel like enough people are unhappy with it that I'm missing something.

Erick wrote: "Ruth wrote: "I think it's a definite flaw for a book to take so long to get any sort of plot on the go. I understand the need to build up the world and characters first for the story this books now..."

My problem is with his convoluted sentences that take forever to get to the point. Grammar exists to help the clarity of communication but Kay uses it to impress us with how he can twist a sentence but he ends up obscuring meaning. It is awkward and ungainly.

He was trained as a lawyer. :oD

THAT does not surprise me!

As far as the time it takes to get into actual plot of the book, or spent on backstories, think about all of those books which spend the first 1/3 of the book telling about the protagonist's childhood, which usually has VERY little to do with the actual story being told and is usually just character development. Any plot points during this long run-up could have been easily dropped in on the way, but I have to spend hours reading about how our poor hero was teased and humiliated, or pampered and indulged, etc.

I much prefer Kay's method of getting ramped up into the world. Any book which starts with the hero as a child I usually just put away and grab something else nowadays.

I just wish, after finally getting me interested after six chapters in the characters and the plot, he wouldn't whisk it all away in the next chapter focusing on a completely new character, who I so far couldn't care less about!

Vance wrote: "I much prefer Kay's method of getting ramped up into the world. Any book which starts with the hero as a child I usually just put away and grab something else nowadays. "

Funny, because they way Kay had barely introduced Devin before jumping to a flashback of his youth was something that frustrated me about this book. A stranger I didn't give two hoots about was reminiscing about his dull childhood, and I really didn't care at all. I think had the childhood scenes been introduced as actual scenes and not just memories, I might have been more inclined to pay attention to these incidents as part of charter development. At the time of the flashback, I was really more interested in finding out who he IS than who he was, something I still don't really know now, and I'm on chapter 9!

Ruth, you know my general take on this from the other thread! :0)

The books I am liking the most lately are those which start with adults doing adult things. Like the First Law Series, where we jump right into the action. We learn about the characters as we go along by their actions and internal dialogue, and only occasionally through flashbacks. Even with Lies of Locke Lamora, I could have done with about 1/3 of the "early timeline" portions.

I wanted to like this book, I really did. From everything I’ve read, and the number of people who’ve recommended it to me, I thought it would be right up my street, but I’m actually not really enjoying it. I’ve never “lemmed” a book before so I will finish it, but I admit I’m struggling.

I tend to get quite wrapped up in books, and fall into new stories quite easily, but this is the first book in a long time, that I just could not get in to. My main issue (and it may seem a bit silly) was that a lot of the plot felt too coincidental, that events / chance meetings / back stories seemed just a bit too convenient.

A few off the top of my head:

(view spoiler)[
+ Sandre admits he is a wizard and can conveniently pop off to help his son in prison, which really helps out the main cast a ton
+ Meeting Erlein on the road, who also happens to be a wizard
+ Baerd stumbles across a village and fights a battle in another dimension and wins, despite the village-people having tried for many, many years to defeat their foe
+ Dianora goes out for a walk with the intention of finding a Riselka, and does within what seems to be minutes
+ Alessan runs into Naddo (Baerd’s old friend) who has joined a band of outlaws. The outlaws then join Alessan’s cause. They also have wizards...

There were a few more, but they’ve slipped my mind as I write this. It may seem a little odd of me to say, but it just felt like a lot of things were happening, with little-to-no effort and just a whole lot of pure coincidence. I expect a bit of it, and it can be a good thing, but it seemed to happen just a bit too much for my liking.

It also really bothered me how one-track-minded Alessan is. Now, I’m only 70% of the way through, so I apologise if this gets resolved, but right now, the way he’s treating Erlein is despicable and has really made me dislike the character. Erlein was forced into slavery, without prior warning, forced to come along on their journey to bring Tigana back and forced to do magic at someone else’s whim. If he refuses, he suffers a great amount of pain. He doesn’t complain that often, and considering the situation he has been dragged into, I don’t blame him, but anytime he gets frustrated he is met with anger and a certain lack of sympathy from Alessan. I understand that Alessan wants to return Tigana back to the Palm, and it’s admirable that he’s trying to stop the tyrants, but he’s so one-track-minded, he doesn’t seem to care who he hurts, who suffers and who is brought into battle because of him.

Unlike most people, I actually found the Dianora plot-line the most compelling. Her story was really fascinating, and I thoroughly enjoyed reading her chapters. She seemed a lot deeper than the majority of the other characters, and I felt I understood her actions more than most.

For what it’s worth, I enjoy the language and have no problem with pacing. I’m just not sure about certain aspects of the plot... (hide spoiler)]

Vance wrote: "Ruth, you know my general take on this from the other thread! :0)"

Yeah, I thought about mentioning that - I actually had imagined when reading the other thread that your dislike of childhood back story would have turned you off this particular book due to the Devin flashback mentioned, so I was a little surprised. But I can see how we have the complete opposite view entirely. It's interesting.

Luckily, the Devin flashback was very short, so I could tolerate it! :0)

I have to say I was somewhat comforted to find that other people had trouble getting into the book. I was a bit lost at the start but decided to keep going until it clicked or I gave up in frustration. I loved the writing from the start, it was the story that was a bit... not confusing so much as unclear. After reading a few pages I actually came back here to read the summary, thinking "What is actually supposed to be happening in this book?"

Luckily I managed to make it to Chapter 5 and it did indeed click, and I'm enjoying it very much.

You all need a good dose of Steven Erikson. Then you'll never complain about another book being wordy ever again. Or having too many characters you don't care about. Or having too many story arcs that are pointless. Tigana's prose was like soothing balm after seven books of the Malazan series I'm in the middle of.

Honestly, if you have finished chapter 2 without getting drawn into Devin's story, than no, it really does not get any better. The story sucked me in at several points, but always dropped me again soon after. By the time it finally started building to a climax, I was long over it & ready to be reading something else.

Oh, my. Maybe I should hold off on the Malazan series.

David Sven wrote: "You all need a good dose of Steven Erikson. Then you'll never complain about another book being wordy ever again. Or having too many characters you don't care about. Or having too many story arcs t..."

Aloha wrote: "Oh, my. Maybe I should hold off on the Malazan series.

I love the Malazan books but I can understand that others don't. Part of the reason is that the books don't necessarily follow on from each other and you may need to wait 2 or 3 books to see a cliffhanger resolved or a particularly involving storyline continued.

His universe is incredibly rich and detailed and is not for the faint of heart but I found it incredibly rewarding.

David Sven wrote: "You all need a good dose of Steven Erikson."

Verily, David Sven, your literary fortitude doth impress me greatly.

Being but a lesser mortal myself, who, while possessed of the capacity to divine meanings obscured by dependent clauses most egregious, yea, even such atrocities as I have striven to pen here, shall full rightly continue to enjoy works of prose such as are placed down by the likes of Jim Butcher, B. Justin Shier, Scott Westerfeld, and Lindsay Buroker.

And within such works I may find that, at times, I shall smile in a pleasure not hard won from the jaws of bestial verbosity but given freely in clear language.

Not to say that I don't appreciate the occassional poetic turn for emphasis, nor to imply that I did not enjoy Malazan and Tigana (despite their best efforts) but, as always, to simply point out that for every thought there is a time, for every word there is a place, and for every reader there is a book. This may not be the book for everyone.

LOL. You've made your point very well, Sky.


Sky wrote: "David Sven wrote: "You all need a good dose of Steven Erikson."

Verily, David Sven, your literary fortitude doth impress me greatly.

Being but a lesser mortal myself, who, while possessed of the..."

Aloha wrote: "Oh, my. Maybe I should hold off on the Malazan series"

Overall I love the series. I must do, because I've just started book 9. There is a lot to complain about, but overall, Malazan's redeeming features outweigh the bad. Its definitely a unique experience. The world building is epic, the magic system is clever, and the action sequences are explosive and second to none, and the humour is hilarious. Give the first book a go. Its . . . different.

Tigana I could read over again just to savour the flavours. If I ever re read Malazan, it would be to try and catch all the intricate world building detail and lore that I missed the first time around. Then again, that's what the wikis are for.

Sky wrote: "David Sven wrote: "You all need a good dose of Steven Erikson."

Verily, David Sven, your literary fortitude doth impress me greatly.

Being but a lesser mortal myself, who, while possessed of the..."

I think Kruppe just fell in love with you. And Iskarel Pust would propose marriage if he leaned in that direction. Although Iskarel would then have to edit the holy scriptures of Shadow (again) to redefine how many spouses a priest of Shadow is allowed (again).

I guess no one's suggested it yet, so I might as well ... maybe the Tigana audiobook would be an easier read? and the answer is: yes, it does get better (honestly!)

I remember trying to pick this book up several, several times many years ago, but could never get past the first few chapters. Recently I was stuck in a car by myself for a really long time, so I got the audiobook ... and now I can't stop listening.

I don't care too much for the accents but they're tolerable. And I think what may seem unnecessarily convoluted when read sounds very natural when spoken. The story and characterization keeps building, if you just stick with it. When I'm done with the audiobook I'm definitely going to read it again myself ... it's now one of my favorite books of this genre.

Audiobook didn't work any better for me. Actually it put me to sleep once and almost twice (2nd time I was driving and that's when I decided I was done...not officially lemming it but not reading anymore anytime soon).

So what I'm hearing is that its chapter 3-5 that will make the book for me. Well past that now. Still like @Tifany will have to finish reading it as i paid for it.



@Malazan conversation. The Malazan books are wordy yes but they are also readable. Eriksons Malazan stuff is very readable as the sentences inspire vivd imagery. Tigana... not so much.

I find the wording in audiobook format very smooth and they got a top performer. The prose in this format reminds me of GRRM's but less verbose. I have found my mind wandering some but I do believe it's easier to tolerate slow bits when you can mulitask.

@Tiffany's spoiler section:
It's been a little since I read Tigana, but not quite long enough for me to want to reread it right now. Still, I actually remember being puzzled, then intrigued, and ultimately approving very much of the author's letting me make up my own mind about Alessan, particularly his attitude towards Erlein, his actions with regards to Erlein, and his own attitude towards his own actions.
I generally enjoy being a consumer of narratives, and sometimes finding myself at odds with a character I was generally rooting for up until such a moment can push me out of my comfort zone as well, but coming across passages that make me reevaluate characters' actions and motivations and have a more nuanced appreciation of them, having mixed feelings and being forced to think about it all, and what makes a character do certain things that they themselves have mixed feelings about as well, those moments can make a character and a narrative more complex, more 'real', and emotionally engaging. Thus it may be worth following up on your mixed feelings about certain characters' actions, perhaps find out and reconsider what causes those conflicting emotions and whether this was intended or at least left room for, and perhaps thereby enriching your encounter with and appreciation of the text?
Personally, I enjoyed Tigana quite a bit, all the more so because it made me pause and think a few times.

Syacelion wrote: " Thus it may be worth following up on your mixed feelings about certain characters' actions, perhaps find out and reconsider what causes those conflicting emotions and whether this was intended or at least left room for, and perhaps thereby enriching your encounter with and appreciation of the text?"

I totally agree with you! I likely had been a bit rash in my judgement against Alessan at that point, as I had just read a few chapters where his behaviour towards Erlein was hard to understand.

But as I'm not quite done with the book yet, there's plenty of time for some character development, and clarification of his behaviour and actions. I may find myself warming up to him nearer the end :)

Thanks, David. When I feel like a sword, I must give the series a try.

David Sven wrote: "Aloha wrote: "Oh, my. Maybe I should hold off on the Malazan series"

Overall I love the series. I must do, because I've just started book 9. There is a lot to complain about, but overall, Malazan..."

Darren wrote: "I lemmed Gardens... "

Very understandable. I almost did as well. For about the first third of the book I was thinking, "This guy can't write to save his life." But I was a little intrigued by the possessed puppet - and I liked Kruppe, and I thought Quick Ben was cool - so I hung on. And it all started making sense 2/3 in where you realize how clever he's been. However, he is still asking a lot of the reader to trust him till then.
But I'm still in at book 9.

Apart from Chapter one with Tigana, at no point did I feel disoriented - And I found myself very quickly growing interested in most the characters.
Tigana can make me cry - err nearly (man grunt man grunt).

But Erikson's action sequences are so badass its kept me in the series. If I could mix in Tigana's prose and characterization with Erikson's action it would be the perfect book.

I think that if you don't warm to Devin in the early chapters, it's pretty hard to like the book as a whole. I've finished the book now, but whilst there were parts I liked (Dianora and Brandon) I was bored by most of the other sections, and found that there were too many characters I just didn't care about taking up too much space in the story.

If I had picked this book up randomly one day and started reading, I don't think I would have gotten past the first few pages, where I think his verbose writing style is at its worst. When Devin was first introduced, he was like a life preserver for me and things started to get better. But if you're not hooked by the first 100 pages, I think you can safely toss it. One of my favourites and glad I was told it gets better.

Well, I finally finished the book last night and while it was enjoyable, after reading around the message boards here, most seem to have the same opinion... a good book, just unfortunately the way it is written... it's a wordy slog.

I refuse to Lem books, so because I put it down to read some other stuff in between, this one took me a while.

In the end, I don't feel it was time wasted... I just wish the author had one of those heavy handed editors that would've trimmed a lot of the fat in this sucker. It could've been much tighter and therefore a much more enjoyable read for me.

Tom's comment on the show about being sucked in once they hit the Hunting Lodge was pretty spot on for me. The beginning was okay, but not all that inviting. Incredibly verbose or "flowery" prose doesn't really bother me on its own, but that coupled with the total onslaught of people, places, gods, goddesses, and other information in the first few chapters had me feeling a bit overwhelmed.

Then, the famed Hunting Lodge chapter happened and I was hooked. You get to know the major characters better and the main plot not only becomes much clearer, but it really starts to move at that point. Loved it all in all.

I'm only half way through the book, clearly I'm not one of the sucked in persuasion, which is why I was checking out this thread.

Its nice to hear that other people found it rather bland, but I think my biggest beef with the book was that the entire 'adventure' is essentially based around a forgotten name. I just can't find myself enthused for something so incredibly trivial.
As I have read some more and its been made more clear how terrible the tyrants are I am just avoiding the whole tigana name BS and imagining the prince actually fighting for his people to free them from tyranny.

I'm a big fan of the author. I have read a bunch of his books, this one just doesn't seem his best work. But I will finish it...someday.

TFGamer wrote: "Its nice to hear that other people found it rather bland, but I think my biggest beef with the book was that the entire 'adventure' is essentially based around a forgotten name. I just can't find myself enthused for something so incredibly trivial. "

Yes, I felt that too. I mean, it wasn't just the name, but the history of the place and people that had been removed, so I can see why that would be upsetting, especially to those who were around when it happened but I still felt like more emotional weight had been given to the issue than was truly deserving. It didn't make sense to me that Devin would join the cause for that alone. Perhaps if the focus of the group had been more on the forgotten massacre than the forgotten name, it might have worked better, but none of them seemed all that fussed about that.