Should have read classics discussion

This is the discussion for part 2 of Atlas Shrugged. Please remember spoiler alerts.

just wondering what anyones thoughts were on James Taggart?

Hmm, he is difficult to like from my point of view, but I'm rather behind everyone.

Does it seem to anyone else that everything from book one has been turned on it's head and now we are starting from a totally different set of goals? The discovery of the engine has completly turned everything around. The mood and essence of the book has changed, maybe that is just me.

By the way, I just happened to read that the second part of the movie is coming out soon. Has anyone seen the first one?

Regarding James Taggart ( @Mpress 's question), he's clearly a villian, but not one who "knows better" like some other characters. He seems weak to me, and hypocritical, in contrast to Rand's heroes.

I would have to agree with you Mark. James Taggert is not one of my favorite characters so far. I'm just now reading about his wedding and he just sets my teeth on edge.
Has anyone seen the newest installment of the movie? The second part opened this last weekend and I was wondering if anyone had seen it?

Regarding Lisa's question about Atlas Shrugged (Part II), I both saw it and liked it! I recommend it. Better than the first movie (admittedly low bar, but I liked the first one as well). It seemed true to the book. All new actors. Like the first movie, the James Taggart character is good-looking: not at all what I pictured when I read the book. I pictured a "Newman" type: not as in "Paul;" as in "Seinfeld."

Warning: You had better hurry to the theater now. I hear that the box office receipts may not be keeping up.

I figured that it would not be in theater long, might have to rent it. How are you liking this part of the book? Any comments so far?

This is one of my favorite books, and I wish I knew your group was reading this earlier (I just joined). The movie will not be in the theater for long, just as it wasn't for the first segment. I'm afraid to say anything as I don't want to spoil the ending for anyone. How far along in this book are all of you?

Oh, I do so hope that you join us, this is a rather long buddy read since I can't seem to read this book fast. I'm on page 428, so not very far and I keep getting behind with all the other books that are popping up, but we will press on since there is not a finish date on this buddy read.

I am in the 3rd section. chapter V My brothers keeper. I would like to see the movie when I'be completed my reading.

Part 2 is my favorite part of the book. It's where things start to come together, and the reader starts to get answers. Part 1 introduced a lot of questions for me, and I think that was on purpose. While the whole book is very preachy (and I resonate with the points Rand makes through her characters), it's still clouded in a lot of mystery. I confess I really didn't understand her philosophy until I read her non-fiction. But I did, through Atlas Shrugged, engage emotionally with her philosophy before I understood it intellectually.

How exciting! I loved my brother's keeper, but Chapter 10, Sign of the Dollar, answers one of the main questions of the book...who exactly is John Galt? The story progresses from there. After reading Atlas, I researched ARand a bit. You see, she was born in Russia, hated communism, escaped to America. Although a screen writer, she decided to write fiction to state her philosophy of "we vs. I" or "collectivism vs. individualism". She started w/ We The Living, went onto Anthem. Did a fine job w/ the Fountainhead (very similar to Atlas), but felt that she didn't communicate her philosophy exactly the way she wished to. Therefore...Atlas Shrugged was her magnum opus, and she never wrote fiction again. She felt that she finally stated everything she wanted to state. With regards to the movie...it did a fine job w/ the basics, but I feel skipped too much out. I was let down w/ the ending of Atlas II.

I had no idea that Ayn Rand did not write another book after this one. Interesting! Thanks for the back story Julie!
I have been watching the stories of the men that built America on the History channel and I have been struck by how many of those men remind me of Rearden. I did not know much history of Rockefeller, Carnegie, J.P Morgan and such, they were incredibly driven. Such foresight.
Has anyone read the Fountainhead?

Dang it, I didn't know the History Channel was playing those stories now. Usually they have such junk on there I forgot to check when it was coming on.

Julie -- Thanks so much for the background. I would love to know why you were let down w/ the ending of Atlas II (and I take it that you mean the movie). I was let down too, not because it didn't show John Galt, but because what we did see was not the hero that I had envisioned when I read the book. What was your specific "let down."

Julie wrote: "Dang it, I didn't know the History Channel was playing those stories now. Usually they have such junk on there I forgot to check when it was coming on."

They are still showing the old ones right now. If you are still interested.

I watched the first part of Atlas Shrugged last night and really enjoyed it. My husband liked it also, but he said that it helped that I filled in many of the back stories of the characters. I can't seem to find who wrote that they were surprised that James Taggert was good looking in the movie. It shocked me also.

I'm not sure I understand why the movie Atlas I and Atlas II have different actors for each one. In Atlas I, Dagny (my hero) is exactly as I pictured in the book. Young, smart, beautiful. In Atlas II, she is perhaps 20 years older. All of the actors were older in II. Very odd.

I agree with Julie. The cast for Part II looked so much older, and I liked the first Dagny better. As to the changing the entire cast, I think it related to the movie business more than an artistic statement.

Interesting, I thought that Dagny in Atlas I was just perfect. Exactly like I pictured her, it was only James Taggert and Rearden's wife that did not jive with my mental images. I must hurry and read farther since the first movie covered everything that I have read so far. I'm sorry for the snail's pace with this one, but East of Eden is taking my awhile.

After watching the two before-mentioned shows, I can see that unfettered capitalism is not a good system and complete government control is not a good system either. I think that the hard part is finding a mixture that works, with freedom for people and still regulations that keep some control. Sorry this might just be my rambling and I realize that politics is a touchy subject, but this book puts it right out there and I hope that we can discuss it fairly without malice and pettiness. So far, everyone has been great and the comments are wonderful, so thanks to everyone for that! Gives me hope!

Thanks Lisa. Great to start that line of commentary. From Atlas Shrugged, how would you characterize Ayn Rand's view of the role of government in our society? What does she think it should be?

Granted, I have not gotten that far, but I would say that she is against a government that forgets about private property rights and the rights of individuals. She is railing against the rights of the collective and the power that comes with a government that becomes too large and intrusive. I'm not sure how she feels about other govermental entities like the military and such.

Lisa -- Thanks for your insight. I get that from Rand, too. I would say that Rand's villains don't "forget" as much as they intentionally embrace the role of government to take anything as long as it's in "the public good." Regarding military, Rand said that the role of government is to protect the individual from criminals and the role of the Constitution is to protect the individual from the government.

I just finished reading the Thanksgiving scene last night, which was rather appropriate for this time of the year. I was finally happy that Rearden finally spoke his peace and then in the next scene at the courtroom, I almost applauded out loud like the crowd. What does everyone think about sanction of the victim idea? I have never thought about it in that term. I wonder what Francisco was going to ask Readen before the smelter accident?

Great fun! So happy to hear your thoughts as you're encountering these phrases. I remember having similar responses. 'Sanction of the victim' was clear to me at first, then not, then even more clear. I too wanted to cheer. Not that these are sympathetic characters but they seems to have 'right' on their side. Please keep sharing.

I'm actually almost done, whew, and I must say that I had similar feelings at times. I would finally think that I understand something and then I would try to explain it to my husband and not be able to. It is frustrating to try and explain the ideas in this book, not that they annoy me, more to the fact, I'm not quite sure what to say about them.

How about the Directive 10-289? Why would anyone think that it would work, and not kill ambition and work? I would shudder to think of being stuck at some of the jobs that I have had, without the opportunity to leave or advance higher.

You have piqued my curiosity by referring to Directive 10-289. I know seems ridiculous and outrageous, as in "Why would anyone...?" but now I'm looking for examples in the news. Do you think it's akin to what many large unions do when they negotiate effective "can't fire anyone" initiatives. I use the word "effective" because it doesn't literally say that in the contracts; it has the same effect. (My dad worked on the assembly line at GM.)

I'm sure that the certain initiatives that are used in union contracts can sound similar to parts of the Directive. Now, I don't want to generalize about every union, and there is a huge difference between public sector unions and private sector unions(which are the ones that are described mostly in Atlas.) I think that an example that has recently been in the news was the Hostess bankruptcy. Both sides in that one seems to be unyielding and just crazy.

I appreciate your insights. I'm always interested to see contemporary parallels in older literature. It's amazing to think that Rand wrote in 1957. It seems like there are more examples today than at the time she wrote.

Wow, everyone has brought up so many interesting topics to discuss! The possible conversations are virtually endless, I love it!

Mark- I've been amazed almost from the beginning by the fact that Atlas was published in '57, and it remains very relevant today. The examples/parallels throughout are sprinkled throughout, and sadly, we're still dealing with many of those issues. We haven't gotten our act together yet..

Mark wrote: "You have piqued my curiosity by referring to Directive 10-289. I know seems ridiculous and outrageous, as in "Why would anyone...?" but now I'm looking for examples in the news. Do you think it's a..."

I have a question. Exactly how similar was the Directive to the "can't fire anyone" initiatives of certain unions? (I'd never even heard of such a possibility until now.)

Julie wrote: "How exciting! I loved my brother's keeper, but Chapter 10, Sign of the Dollar, answers one of the main questions of the book...who exactly is John Galt? The story progresses from there. After re..."

Thank you, Julie!:)

Lisa wrote: "Does it seem to anyone else that everything from book one has been turned on it's head and now we are starting from a totally different set of goals? The discovery of the engine has completly turn..."

Hi, Lisa!

I agree, the discovery of the motor really sets things in motion. There are different goals, and the overall mood and tone had to change, largely due to Dagny's discovery, IMO.


BTW, I felt like cheering for Reardon during the courtroom scene, as well. He finally stood up for himself, but most importantly, for what he felt was "right." I felt incredibly proud for him!

Thanks for the comments. Has anyone recently finished the book? I'm still interested to talk about parallels in today's headlines.

I'm very interested in discussing the book once I'm done, Mark. I'm still a little ways away, though.. at the start of Book III.

I'm up for it also, but I was waiting until more people finished.

Lisa wrote: "I'm up for it also, but I was waiting until more people finished."

Sounds wonderful, Lisa!:)

I saw that the producers of the Atlas Shrugged movie (Parts I and II) are working on Part III. Here is the link: Atlas Shrugged Part III . It's supposed to be out next year, but I don't want to wait. Hopefully, we'll all be talking about it before then.

I was hoping that they would be able to make the third part, nice to know that!

Mark wrote: "I saw that the producers of the Atlas Shrugged movie (Parts I and II) are working on Part III. Here is the link:
Atlas Shrugged Part III
. It's supposed to be out next year, but I don't want to ..."

Thank you so much for sharing this, Mark! I really want to see the film!

Dustin wrote: "Thank you so much for sharing this, Mark! I really want to see the film! "
Just to be clear, the first two parts are out on Netflix, DVD, etc. They were in theaters for a short time only. The first two parts were filmed a year apart, so they have an entirely different cast. There are favorable aspects to each one. The producers were working on a limited budget, and to some degree it shows. That said, I still recommend both of them.

Aw, thank you for your input, Mark! I knew that Part I was available on Netflix, but the last I checked, the second part wasn't there.
That stinks that the cast differs with each segment, though..

Dustin wrote: "That stinks that the cast differs with each segment, though.."

I hear you on the cast. I like some of the first actors better, but I think the acting is generally superior in the second. I miss Dagny from Part I.

Mark wrote: "Dustin wrote: "That stinks that the cast differs with each segment, though.."
I hear you on the cast. I like some of the first actors better, but I think the acting is generally superior in the sec..."

:)

GrrrrR! For some reason, every time we look for parts 2 and 3 of Atlas Shrugged, Netflix never has them. Only part 1 is available!!