The History Book Club discussion

Hello Everyone,

For the week of Sept 3rd - Sept 9th , we are reading chapters 58 through 63 of Catherine the Great.

WEEK NINE - Sept 3rd - Sept 9th > Chapter 58 - 63, pp 413 - 460
Part VI ~ Potemkin and Favoritism
Chapter 58 Vasilchikov, Chapter 59 Catherine and Potemkin Passion, Chapter 60 Potemkin Ascending, Chapter 61 Catherine and Potemkin Separation, Chapter 62 New Relationships, Chapter 63 Favorites

We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.

This book is being kicked off on July 9th. We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Borders and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, or on your Kindle. We offer a special thank you to Random House for their generosity.

There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to get started and/or to post.

Alisa will be leading this discussion.

Welcome,

TO ALWAYS SEE ALL WEEKS' THREADS SELECT VIEW ALL

by Robert K. Massie

REMEMBER NO SPOILERS ON THE WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREADS

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Glossary

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The author Robert Massie will not be joining the discussion.

by Robert K. Massie

I find it absolutely fascinating (and a little tragic) how motivated Catherine seems to be by love. It appears that she can't live for any length of time at all without some romance. For such an intelligent, driven woman the influence her lovers had on her (particularly Orlov and Potemkin) was astounding!

I was especially surprised by how she ended her relationship with Orlov. She never confronted him with the issues she had or discussed ending the relationship with him, she just shipped him off to a distant assignment and put someone new in his place. It seems rather cowardly.

Massie spends pages 429 to 430 discussing the possibility that Catherine and Potemkin were married.

He quotes the British ambassador to Austria, and the French ambassador to Russia. On page 430 he says that "the strongest written evidence appears in the language of Catherine's daily messages to Potemkin where "she addresses him as my dear husband" and "signs herself as your devoted wife".

He then says that "The hisTory of Russia offers the strongest evidence of all. After their physical passion had dimmed, Catherine and Potemkin continued a special relationship that was often incomprehensible to everyone around them. Marriage would provide an explanation."

An interesting case, but subject to speculation if Catherine's use of the words husband and wife were hyperbole.

Then, after closing the subject, in the next Chapter, on page 437, discussing the quarrels between Catherine and Potemkin, he quotes Catherine's letter, talking about herself. She says "Was she not attached to you two years ago by the bonds of Holy Matrimony?"

I would think that should have been in the prior Chapter as part of the marriage discussion.

Empresses do not play by our rules. One of the problematic aspects of writing "Catherine the Great: Portrait of a Woman" is that it runs the risk of over-emphasizing the woman and downplaying the head of state. It's clear that Catherine derives energy from "new love" (don't we all?) and, precisely because she is not tied to morality or convention, she is able to have a revolving door of trusted ex-lovers and useful favorites. If she were a man and an 18th-century head of state, her behavior would be normal and expected. The story of Lanskoy (pp. 453-455) is both touching and revealing. Theirs was a very human relationship, giving Catherine an opportunity to express herself as an Enlightenment Mentor/Mother. What if Lanskoy had lived? Would she have tired of him and this role too?

Kim wrote: "I find it absolutely fascinating (and a little tragic) how motivated Catherine seems to be by love. It appears that she can't live for any length of time at all without some romance. For such an in..."

Me, too. Elizabeth I, I think, was like this, too. You have a strong woman, but still falling in love. It could human nature.

It is interesting to observe how candid Catherine is about her personal thoughts and feelings...a rare window into the life of a current ruler. (chapter 59, page 423) She seemed to be so intensely focused on serving her nation and on what was best for it that perhaps she expected that all would support and follow her...and wouldn't possibly fault or use against her any personal feelings or actions that became public.

Chapter 63 (pages 458 and 460) suggests more of the same. Unlike most rulers, Catherine, because she had such a pure and righteous motivation to serve and better her country, appeared not to be able to imagine citizens faulting her for any of her private behavior. Yet, it does at times seem a bit reckless or naive in relation to some of the men in her life. But it was also another day and another place, and perhaps such behavior was more accepted in an absolute ruler than in many leaders and places today.

Kim wrote: "I find it absolutely fascinating (and a little tragic) how motivated Catherine seems to be by love. It appears that she can't live for any length of time at all without some romance. For such an in..."

She has an unusual and creative way of dumping the men in her life. On the one hand, I suppose there are at least 50 ways to leave your lover as the Paul Simon song suggests. On the other hand she is an imperial ruler but still human and subject to the vagaries of human emotion involved in any romantic relationship. I think she loved Orlov at some point but she also used him as a pawn when it was convenient for her.

Joanne wrote: "Empresses do not play by our rules. One of the problematic aspects of writing "Catherine the Great: Portrait of a Woman" is that it runs the risk of over-emphasizing the woman and downplaying the h..."

So true. Catherine in particular made her own rules, in fact created her own path to the throne! In that situation perhaps she came to believe she could do anything.

Lewis wrote: "Chapter 63 (pages 458 and 460) suggests more of the same. Unlike most rulers, Catherine, because she had such a pure and righteous motivation to serve and better her country, appeared not to be abl..."

I wonder how much visibility people outside the inner circle had to her dalliances. Not as much in today's information age. She could get away with more.

Bryan wrote: "Kim wrote: "I find it absolutely fascinating (and a little tragic) how motivated Catherine seems to be by love. It appears that she can't live for any length of time at all without some romance. Fo..."

Something enduring about human nature, eh?

What a woman was this Catherine. She seems to have had insatiable sexual appetite for young men. These men with the exception of possibly Lanskoy were after power and when that was not forthcoming soon grew tired of the demands placed on them. They all seemed to think that they were the masters of Catherine and her showering them with gifts led them to believe they could convince her to do their bidding. Lanskoy seems to be the only one who understood what is position was in the scheme of things. Only if he had lived would Catherine been a much happier person. The others were just pawns for her to use. It is a shame there is no documentation of Catherine's sexual habits. The way she went through men she must have been insatiable once she discovered the pleasure's of sex. Nothing is mentioned so far as to how she managed to avoid pregnancy or any types of STD's that were prevalent at the time. Another thought comes to mind is whether she was attracted to female companionship. To put it bluntly could she have had female loves as well as male. To think while all this was going on she still kept Potemkin and managed to rule a country during wars and insurrections. The more I read about her the more details I wish I knew.

I wonder if Catherine was an insatiable sexual person or just lonely. Being an absolute ruler, she really had no "friends" and as they say "it's lonely at the top". By always having a lover, she would be guaranteed close companionship. Of course, she used those lovers to her advantage, both politically and sexually but I think they also provided an island of security in a very public life where nothing was secure.

Jill wrote: "I wonder if Catherine was an insatiable sexual person or just lonely. Being an absolute ruler, she really had no "friends" and as they say "it's lonely at the top". By always having a lover, she wo..."

Yeah, I agree with Jill. I got the impression that she always had these relationships more for the emotional intimacy than the physical. "She wanted an indication of pleasure in her company, a desire to understand her point of view, a willingness to be instructed by her intelligence and experience, an appreciation of her sense of humor, and an ability to make her laugh. The physical side of her relationships offered only brief distraction" (p. 459, Ch 63).

Massie believes (and states in the second paragraph on that page) that this was because she was shipped off to a foreign country at a young age where she wed a young man who gave her neither physical nor emotional intimacy, her parents were dead, and her children were essentially taken from her at birth. She was always isolated. Because she was denied these types of relationships earlier in her life, she craved them constantly as she grew up.

These chapters had just too much bed hopping for me. I found myself not really all that interested in this section of the book. I found previous chapters were very interesting to read about Pugachev attempting to claim he was Peter The third. It was also fascinating in previous chapters to read about small pox inoculations and what life was like for the ordinary Russian. Catherine was so open about all these lovers and dumping young men one after the other that it was rather too much. I did find myself wondering how she avoided STD's since she was certainly a candidate for a number of diseases.

Due to unexpected circumstance, the chapter summaries are a little late and we apologize.

Chapter Summaries for Discussion

Chapter 58: Vasilchikov

After eleven year of faithfulness to Orlov, when Catherine refuses to marry him, he finds other women and Catherine ends the relationship. Panin supports a replacement, twenty-eight year old Horse Guards officer, Alexander Vasilchikov and he is installed as the favorite. Orlov returns and after trying to recapture Catherine's affections, he realizes that he has been ousted. Catherine soon find that Vasilchikov is no intellectual and she begins to find him boring. But she is kind to him and sends him away after twenty two months.

Chapter 59: Catherine and Potemkin Passion

Next to Catherine, Gregory Potemkin was the most powerful figure in Russia and his family had served the Russian sovereigns for generations. Although drawn to theology, he opted for the army as he felt he needed to command. Sponsored by the Orlovs, he appeared in court and his wit and engaging conversation attracted Catherine. She appointed him to various positions and he volunteered to fight in the first Turkish War where he excelled. Upon his return to court he began to pressure Catherine to rid herself of Vasilchikov but without success. He withdrew to a monastery and Catherine sent an emissary to bring him back to court. He became her lover and Catherine wrote "A Sincere Confession" outlining the details of her past life, to assuage his jealousy. Potemkin desired more than the role of favorite and wanted a life of action and responsibility. It was a passionate relationship and there was rumor of their marriage, although no documents have ever been found; however after the passion had dimmed they continued a special relationship that was often incomprehensible to everyone around them. Marriage may have been the explanation.

Chapter 60: Potemkin Ascending

Honors were heaped upon Potemkin once he took his place as the favorite and the court realized that he was not a mere puppet but a man to be reckoned with. Catherine consulted him about everything and he began to challenge the member of the Imperial Council. He also involved himself in matters of the church. King George III in the midst of fighting in America against his rebellious colonial subjects, requested that Russia assist him by sending troops. Catherine refused.

Chapter 61: Catherine and Potemkin Separate

Although a passionate relationship, things did not always go smoothly between the lovers and many tempestuous letters passed between them. Catherine began to tire of his outbursts and warned him that it would cause her to withdraw her love. Potemkin made a choice between love and power, and chose power.

Chapter 62: New Relationships

Catherine finds a successor to Potemkin is Peter Zavadovsky with Potemkin's blessing. But soon, Potemkin finds that the new favorite might be a threat and after less than eighteen months as favorite, Zavadovsky was gone. He returned later as a privy councillor and director of the state bank. Potemkin begins relationships with his three nieces. There was disapproval of relationships between uncles and nieces, but is was muted except by Potemkin's mother. Catherine envied their youth since she was approaching age fifty.

Chapter 63: Favorites

After Potemkin, Catherine's favorites only stayed for a short period and had no influence on government policy. Many were only decorative and there was keen competition for the role. Orlov marries but his wife dies after only four years. He returns to St. Petersburg and dies at age forty-six, leaving an immense fortune to Alexis, his son with Catherine. A procession of young Guards officers as favorites began to shock Europe, not for the number but because of their youth. All had a brief tenure: Simon Zorich; Ivan Rimskly-Korsakov; Alexander Lanskoy; Alexander Yermolov; and Alexander Mamonov. As she said many times, "I cannot live without love".

Thanks Jill, very much appreciated.

Glad to be of assistance.

I agree with Jill. I am also puzzled by Catherine's actions at this point. Could she has been so self-delusional to think that her attractiveness was the draw to very young men. Did she actually think she was still attractive? I know that many of her contempory male rulers were doing the same thing with very young girls but I was under the impression that Catherine was not hypocritical. Much like the trophy wives of today. I know that power is an aphrodisiac however she must have been aware of the fact that she was not being bedded because she was an attractive young girl. She said "I cannot live without love" but she mixed up lost and sex. She is like the cougars of today in that regard.

Barbara wrote: "These chapters had just too much bed hopping for me. I found myself not really all that interested in this section of the book. I found previous chapters were very interesting to read about Pugache..."

You will notice that as she got older, her favorites were not picked for their intellectual powers (Orlov and Potemkin) but for their purely "ornamental" appeal. They could probably be labeled "callow youths" who hoped to gain prestige/honors/riches and it is certainly doubtful that they were attracted to Catherine.
Age 50 in those days was considered old and bedding an "old" woman could not have been a particularly appealing proposition without the power that accompanied it.

I think that on page 449 Massie describes the crux of these chapters, "She wanted to love and be loved. She had lived with an impossible husband in an emotional vacuum. To read her letters to Potemkin is to realize that, as much as physical satisfaction, she wanted intelligent, loving companionship."

Those letters really show the human side, and I'm grateful the letters are around, because it is rare to see this.

Kathy wrote: "I think that on page 449 Massie describes the crux of these chapters, "She wanted to love and be loved. She had lived with an impossible husband in an emotional vacuum. To read her letters to Potem..."

I think this sentence really gets to the crux of what motivates her with these relationships. From the beginning in earlier chapters we heard about young Sophie's lackluster home life, that she had a limited relationship with her father, her mother Johanna almost resented her and demonstrated very little affection for her as a young girl growing up, when they went to Russia Elizabeth showed some feeling for Sophie but really viewed her as a means to an end. Sophie was just trying to be liked, and seemingly was looking for this for years. No wonder she continued to seek out companionship in her adult life. No one had ever shown her true affection. She wanted to be loved indeed.

Kim wrote: "I find it absolutely fascinating (and a little tragic) how motivated Catherine seems to be by love. It appears that she can't live for any length of time at all without some romance. For such an in..."

BY that time she was used to using statecraft to maneuver matters to her liking, but I was sad for him being dismissed that way. Maybe she was afraid he'd act like a traditional husband of the time and demand her subservience?

Alisa wrote: "Kathy wrote: "I think that on page 449 Massie describes the crux of these chapters, "She wanted to love and be loved. She had lived with an impossible husband in an emotional vacuum. To read her le..."

Kathy wrote: "I think that on page 449 Massie describes the crux of these chapters, "She wanted to love and be loved. She had lived with an impossible husband in an emotional vacuum. To read her letters to Potem..."

She wanted companionship, good advice (when asked for), and good sex too. I guess she figured she was as entitled to it as the male rulers of her day, but I was disappointed with all the bed-hopping too :/

Well said, Susan, she probably felt she was entitled.

Jill wrote: "You will notice that as she got older, her favorites were not picked for their intellectual powers (Orlov and Potemkin) but for their purely "ornamental" appeal. They could probably be labeled "cal..."

In some ways I get it though. She was a ruler, as an imperial she was out and about all the time, entertianing, theater, etc. It seems in keeping with the times that this mean she would naturally have an escort for all this. The idea of a woman alone for an 18th century ruler seems like it would be a huge hassle. No one seemed to hold her in scorn for having multiple successive dalliances, expect to the extent it was threatening to someone's political power. Even with the age differences of some of these later lovers, it still doesn't seem out of character for the time that this would take place.

Clayton wrote: "What a woman was this Catherine. She seems to have had insatiable sexual appetite for young men. These men with the exception of possibly Lanskoy were after power and when that was not forthcoming ..."

On the one hand I'm not all that interested in the details (a little TMI) but you have to think that either her childbearing ability had run its course or the nature of the sexual relationship was somewhat limited. I to wondered how she managed to stay healthy, as certainly these gentlemen were not exactly virgins themselves. I really took this all to be a sign of boredom on her part.

I get it too......but the intellectual quality of her later favorites declined and they indeed were more escorts than powerful favorites. It would be very difficult for a woman to rule alone without someone to lean on in private times. Elizabeth I of England may be the exception but she also had her favored courtiers although it appears that her liaisons were not sexual ones.

Jill wrote: "I get it too......but the intellectual quality of her later favorites declined and they indeed were more escorts than powerful favorites. It would be very difficult for a woman to rule alone withou..."

Older woman going through a boy toy phase, perhaps a woman before her time . . . snark aside, these later men in her life certainly lacked the intellect of her previous paramours. Maybe she was just bored and too distracted with other things to be horribly picky about her male companionship.