The History Book Club discussion

Hello Everyone,

For the week of Sept 10th - Sept 16th, we are reading chapters 64 through 68 of Catherine the Great.

WEEK TEN - Sept 10th - Sept 16th > Chapter 64 - 68, pp 461 - 518
Part VII ~ My Name Is Catherine the Second , Chapter 64 Catherine, Paul, and Natalia, Chapter 65 Paul, Maria, and the Succession, Chapter 66 Potemkin Builder and Diplomat, Chapter 67 Crimean Journey and Potemkin Villages, Chapter 68 The Second Turkish War and the Death of Potemkin

We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.

This book is being kicked off on July 9th. We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Borders and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, or on your Kindle. We offer a special thank you to Random House for their generosity.

There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to get started and/or to post.

Alisa will be leading this discussion.

Welcome,

TO ALWAYS SEE ALL WEEKS' THREADS SELECT VIEW ALL

by Robert K. Massie

REMEMBER NO SPOILERS ON THE WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREADS

Notes:

It is always a tremendous help when you quote specifically from the book itself and reference the chapter and page numbers when responding. The text itself helps folks know what you are referencing and makes things clear.

Citations:

If an author or book is mentioned other than the book and author being discussed, citations must be included according to our guidelines. Also, when citing other sources, please provide credit where credit is due and/or the link. There is no need to re-cite the author and the book we are discussing however.

If you need help - here is a thread called the Mechanics of the Board which will show you how:

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/2...

Glossary

Remember there is a glossary thread where ancillary information is placed by the moderator. This is also a thread where additional information can be placed by the group members regarding the subject matter being discussed.

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/9...

Bibliography

There is a Bibliography where books cited in the text are posted with proper citations and reviews. We also post the books that the author used in her research or in her notes. Please also feel free to add to the Bibliography thread any related books, etc with proper citations. No self promotion, please.

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/9...

The author Robert Massie will not be joining the discussion.

by Robert K. Massie

Summaries

Chapter 64: Catherine, Paul, and Natalia
When Catherine reaches the throne, she retrieves her son Paul but their relationship is a tenuous one. She proclaims him as heir to the throne. Although it was thought that he was fathered by Saltykov, as he grows older he begins to resemble Peter and reveres his dead father. He is a difficult young man and his Governor, Panin, feels that marriage will help mature him. Three Hessian princesses are brought to Russia and Paul chooses Princess Wilhemenia who is not enthusiastic about the marriage. However the nineteen year-old Paul and seventeen year-old Natalia (her Russian name from that day forward) are married. Panin who had significant influence over Paul is dismissed as tutor much to his distress. Natalia's extravagance and frivolous behavior irritates Catherine but she redeems herself by becoming pregnant; however, she and the child die and Paul's emotional state is precarious.

Chapter 65: Paul, Maria, and the Succession
Princess Sophia of Wurttemburg, great niece of Frederick II is the next choice as a wife for Paul. He travels to Berlin and is feted by Frederick, duly impressing him. Sophia comes to Russia, takes the name of Maria, and is married to Paul. Two boys are born within 22 months and the succession is assured. The marriage is a happy one and produces nine healthy children. Catherine strikes up a new friendship with Joseph II of Austria and Paul and Maria undertake a European tour to cement relationships. Panin dies after many years as Paul's adviser and friend. Catherine begins to resent Paul and he stays away from court, humiliated by her parade of favorites. She constantly finds fault with him and flirts with the idea of disinheriting him in favor of his first son, Alexander. Paul becomes progressively eccentric.

Chapter 66: Potemkin, Builder and Diplomat
Potemkin rules southern Russia like an emperor and begins developing cities which would become his lasting achievement. He is raised to Field Marshal and takes control of all military matters. Other countries began to court favor with Russia and Catherine signs a treaty with Austria pledging joint support in the event of war with Turkey. Catherine rejects a treaty with England for fear of being drawn into a European war. The Crimea is annexed to Russia without a battle.

Chapter 67: Crimean Journey and Potemkin Villages
Catherine goes on a historic journey to the Crimea which has been described as the most remarkable journey ever made by a reigning monarch and Potemkin's greatest public triumph. It gives rise to the myth of the "Potemkin Villages", supposedly fabricated towns used to deceive Catherine on her journey. Catherine travels over four thousand miles across a land that would be in Russian hands until 1941. Her heir Paul is excluded from the guest list of those accompanying the Empress. Catherine meets her former lover who she created King of Poland and is not impressed. The Turks prevent her from traveling as far as she had wished. Potemkin gathers the Black Sea Fleet in the harbor at Sevastopol to the admiration of all. Once Catherine returns from the exhausting trip comes the news that Turkey had declared war.

Chapter 68: The Second Turkish War and the Death of Potemkin
The declaration of war by Turkey takes Russia by surprise although the country was known to be hostile. Their objective is to retake the Crimea. Austria joins Russia in declaring war on Turkey. After two winters the city of Ochakov is sacked and is one of the bloodiest battles in Russian military history. Emperor Joseph II of Austria dies and his brother Leopold takes the throne and immediately signs an armistice with Turkey. Russia fights on alone. Sweden, seeing an opportunity to regain Finland, sends an ultimatum to Catherine but it only results in all borders remaining the same. The second war with Turkey adds to the legend of Potemkin. The American John Paul Jones, who was denied an admiralty by the Americans, comes to Russia and joins the Black Seas Fleet as a rear admiral. He is not successful and becomes embroiled in a sexual scandal. He dies in Paris, alone, forgotten and buried in a pauper's grave. After the peace with
Turkey, Potemkin returns to the Empress's side but her current favorite, Zubov is in command. Tired and ill, Potemkin succumbs to malaria at age fifty-two. Catherine is inconsolable.

The harsh realities of the monarchy are shown to us in chapter 64 (pages 471-472) when Catherine is primarily concerned with a potential future ruler than she is with the death of her own daughter-in-law. Catherine's dedication to the nation is noble and remarkable...but there can be a cruel side to it as well.

I think that the begetting of an heir was the only important thing and the loss of a daughter-in-law was a minor occurrence in the bigger picture...the bigger picture being Russia and solidifying her dynasty. It certainly seems cruel.

She had become Elizabeth by taking Alexander after he was born...maybe she appreciated why Elizabeth did it with Paul.

In this section, we see just how much power the reigning sovereign possessed when, until he or she drew his or her last breath, the succession to the Russian throne remained unknown. Catherine's increasing desire to skip her son, Paul, and name her grandson, Alexander, as her successor is not at all frivolous. Paul's eccentric and erratic behavior had the potential to undermine all her efforts towards progress and Enlightenment.

Agreed, Joanne. Since primogeniture was not the practice in the Russian court, Catherine was justified in considering Alexander as her heir. It appears that Paul was taking on much of Peter's attitudes/personality which certainly opens the question as to whether he was indeed fathered by Peter and not Saltykov as is generally accepted. Paul even developed the famous "Habsburg lip" as he matured which also gave credence to his actual parentage.

It must have been scary for Catherine to see Paul and see that all the work she has put into ruling Russia could be undone. I suspect you become very passionate about it.

I had heard the myth of the Potemkin villages (page 490) before, but had not realized it was in this context of Catherine's tour. I am impressed with all that Potemkin accomplished and can better see why Catherine was impressed with him and also how the two of them struggled with power issues in their relationship.

I'm impressed by Potemkin's accomplishments, as well. I don't think his accumulation of power (without being a direct ruler) is rare in history...

There is a short summary of Potemkin's life and many accomplishments on the Glossary thread.
Catherine gave him carte blanche in southern Russia and he indeed had a major influence in the development of that area which stretched to the Crimea.

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/9...

I was impressed by Catherine's refusal to send troops to help Britain during the American Revolution/war with France. I think Catherine had a keen eye on global affairs and knew she needed her troops home against the Turks.

I wonder if there was a second underlying reason for her refusal to help England. A revolution was happening in America and with revolution always waiting in the wings in Russia, she may not have wanted her soldiers subjected to revolutionary spirit/ideas and be influenced by them.

Well said,Jill, a good reason.

I continue to be amazed at Catherine's hold on men especially men of such capabilities that she surrounded herself with. Their loyalty not only to her but to the country as a whole, I think, supports my belief that she really did have the interest of Russia at heart. Being she was German and her refusal to align herself with Prussia is further proof that she held the empires interest foremost in her thoughts. The southern expansion and access to a warm water port still to this day is a major accomplish. I also enjoyed the little aside on John Paul Jones. I never knew of his adventures in Russia. So much tragedy for her. Not being loved by her husband the loss of a grandchild and the foolishness of her eldest Paul must have been disappoints beyond imagining. The loss of Potemkin only added to this. Lost at such a young age.

Jill wrote: "I wonder if there was a second underlying reason for her refusal to help England. A revolution was happening in America and with revolution always waiting in the wings in Russia, she may not have w..."

Good point, Jill.

So true, Clayton, there must have been some magnetism about her that is hard to capture in a book.

Jill wrote: "I think that the begetting of an heir was the only important thing and the loss of a daughter-in-law was a minor occurrence in the bigger picture...the bigger picture being Russia and solidifying h..."

I was disappointed she didn't try to do better by her daughter-in-law and son than had been done to her and Peter.

Clayton wrote: "I continue to be amazed at Catherine's hold on men especially men of such capabilities that she surrounded herself with. Their loyalty not only to her but to the country as a whole, I think, suppor..."

She really did value Russia's well-being. Given that she was a foreign-born ruler, her level of attachment must have been as deep as it appeared. She wasn't cynical about everything!

Jill wrote: "I wonder if there was a second underlying reason for her refusal to help England. A revolution was happening in America and with revolution always waiting in the wings in Russia, she may not have w..."

That's a very good thought! May have had a lot to do with it!

Susan, I agree. When Paul and Maria returned from their tour, Catherine treated them poorly.

Catherine may have feared / resented Paul as a rival, but I couldn't see any advantage in her demeaning them both. So often brilliant in her interaction with others, Catherine seems petty and similar to Elizabeth in this instance.

Bryan wrote: "She had become Elizabeth by taking Alexander after he was born...maybe she appreciated why Elizabeth did it with Paul."

Good point. I found Catherine's behavior unexpected, given what she went through. Surprising, and disappointing.

Clayton wrote: "I continue to be amazed at Catherine's hold on men especially men of such capabilities that she surrounded herself with. Their loyalty not only to her but to the country as a whole, I think, suppor..."

Great observations, Clayton. I wonder if she captivated imagination in a lot of men because of her power and her strength as a ruler, and intellect. I suspect they wanted something different out of the relationship (prestige and money) than what she wanted (companionship and attention) but she was no doubt battling a lot of previous disappointments in her life that carried over into her personal relationships.

I was surprised at the interest in acquiring the island of Minorca, which is only 250 miles east of Barcelona. I've been unable to find out any information on why Catherine and Potemkin would desire it.

Alisa wrote: "Clayton wrote: "I continue to be amazed at Catherine's hold on men especially men of such capabilities that she surrounded herself with. Their loyalty not only to her but to the country as a whole,..."

I'm going for the more cynical interpretation here: they saw her as a means of acquiring power for themselves. They may have been deluding themselves -- she was a very shrewd operator -- but with the exception of poor Stanisław Poniatowski (who Massie portrays as having genuinely loved her), the men in her life had agendas that they hoped to use her to fulfill.

Masie refers to Catherine's Crimean journey as "the most remarkable journey ever made as a reigning monarch" (page 489).

The size and splendor described were amazing. I found myself wondering about a comparison to Peter the Great's 18 month Grand Embassy, which included visits to Britian and Holland.

Masie covered it extensively in
by Robert K. Massie

Lisa I think that certainly explains the attraction to Catherine.

Brian wrote: "Masie refers to Catherine's Crimean journey as "the most remarkable journey ever made as a reigning monarch" (page 489).

The size and splendor described were amazing. I found myself wondering abou..."

She fancied herself after Peter the Great, that is an interesting comparison Brian.

Very true Alisa and Brian.......she emulated Peter the Great as a model autocrat. And as we move to the last chapters we will see how she translated her identification with Peter to something very tangible.
I got the impression that her journey was more to honor Potemkin but Brian has brought up a good point about the comparison with Peter's journey.

Alisa and Jill..

I was a bit curious as to Massie referring to it as the "most remarkable journey ever made as a reigning monarch" (not just Russian). It was clearly remarkable, but why the superlative, especially in light o the Grand Embassy?

Brian wrote: "Alisa and Jill..

I was a bit curious as to Massie referring to it as the "most remarkable journey ever made as a reigning monarch" (not just Russian). It was clearly remarkable, but why the supe..."

Good question. I just don't know. Literary license? Maybe to drive home the scale of it all.

I haven't the faintest idea but Alisa's comments make sense to me!

Brian wrote: "I was surprised at the interest in acquiring the island of Minorca, which is only 250 miles east of Barcelona. I've been unable to find out any information on why Catherine and Potemkin would desir..."

Brian, do you think it could be a good navy station? That is a major reason the powers gobbled up islands, so their ships have a way station.

Bryan, that sounds reasonable. My Marine Battalion visited Majorca when we were on our Mediterranean Cruise. It still seemed so far out - but then Catherine had sent ships from the Baltic Sea to the Med. Good catch - and why I love the group discussions!

Thanks Brian and Bryan! Makes sense . . .