Brain Pain discussion

The Oresteia – Part One, Agamemnon

A lone watchman atop the house of Atreus complains of boredom with his duty under the stars and the degraded state of King Agamemnon’s court when suddenly, a light appears in the East, signaling the victory of the Greeks over Troy. And so begins this chapter in the story of “The Doomed House of Atreus”.

Used as a teaching tool by fictional Professor Streibert, (see page 182-183 in Michener’s “The Novel”) the Doomed House of Atreus mural shows the bloodlines and associated crimes of the most infamous family in Greek mythology. There are many stories outside those of the Atreides, but as Streibert points out, a strong familiarity with their history will give any writer (and reader) an excellent foundation for understanding all of Western literature and creating their own fiction.

Through Homer’s Iliad and Odyssey, most people are familiar with the two brother kings – Agamemnon and Menelaus – who married the two sisters, Clytemnestra and Helen, respectively. Aeschylus begins his story as word of the Greek victory over Troy reaches Clytemnestra and her people. The Chorus gives us the back story of Agamemnon sacrificing their virgin daughter, Iphigenia, as an offering to the gods to give the Greek ships fair weather to sail for Troy. Ten years later, Agamemnon returns victorious, with the captured Cassandra as his mistress, to face his wife, Clytemnestra, who has a not-so-secret lover, Aegisthus, and a decade-long grudge to settle over Iphigenia’s murder. Let the play begin…

An ancient Greek amphitheatre stands at the Sanctuary of Apollo on Mount Parnassus.
(age fotostock / SuperStock)

http://www.budgettravel.com/slideshow...

Read more: http://www.budgettravel.com/slideshow...

The early passages remind me how old are some of the observations about human nature in Western literature (some of which I would have been more likely to ascribe to Shakespeare! lol!):

The watchman reminds of Hamlet and Macbeth. Then there are the lines about the cycle of life from physical dependence to physical frailty:

"In weakness youth and age are one:
The sap sleeps in the unripe bone
As in the withered. The green stalk
Grows without thorns: so, in the grey
And brittle years, old men must walk
Three-footed, weak as babes, and stray
Like dreams lost in the light of day."

Walking sticks are not a new invention!

I loved reading this book.

Jim wrote: "The Oresteia – Part One, Agamemnon

Used as a teaching tool by fictional Professor Streibert, (see page 182-183 in Michener’s “The Novel”) the Doomed House of Atreus mural shows the bloodlines and associated crimes of the most infamous family in Greek mythology. There are many stories outside those of the Atreides, but as Streibert points out, a strong familiarity with their history will give any writer (and reader) an excellent foundation for understanding all of Western literature and creating their own fiction.

Jim, thank you for that excellent summary of Agamemnon. It's been a very long time since I've read The Oresteia and I'm hoping we're going to have a discussion on each of the three individual plays here.

Sometime within the past year I reread Iphigenia at Aulis and Iphigenia in Tauris by Euripides. I love the three great Greek Tragedians -- Euripides, Sophocles, and Aeschylus, and I love Greek Mythology in general.

It's interesting to be rereading The Oresteia so soon after rereading the Iphigenia plays.

Jim, I didn't read The Novel by James A. Michener. Is the discussion on The Oresteia going to be based mainly on a comparison to James Michener's book? Or will we be discussing various aspects of the three plays??

I may be inspired to read The Novel if it will shed more light on reading amazing works such as The Oresteia.

Barbara wrote: "Jim, thank you for that excellent summary of Agamemnon...."

Agreed!

Barbara wrote: "Jim, I didn't read The Novel by James A. Michener. Is the discussion on The Oresteia going to be based mainly on a comparison to James Michener's book? Or will we be discussing various aspects of the three plays??..."

No, this discussion will be all about Aeschylus and his masterpiece trilogy. I used a few of the themes covered in Michener's book as an inspiration to read some great books, like the Oresteia. I mentioned The Novel in my intro statement above only to relate it to the House of Atreus for those who read it last month.

And yes, we'll discuss all three plays separately. We can/should include a discussion of the trilogy as a whole during our discussion of The Eumenides.

Enjoy!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia...



This is from his Wiki page. Other diagrams of that family tree that others would recommend, especially ones they found easier to decipher?

Greek School, Attic red figure skyphos depicting the abduction of Briseis by Agamemnon with Talthybios and Diomedes, c.480 BC. Location: Louvre, Paris, France.

Not really this play, but find I decided to share.

Lily, thank you for sharing the diagram of the family tree. It's great. And I LOVE the photos you shared in Message 2 and Message 9 in this thread.

I've spent a lot of time in the Ancient Greek and Roman galleries at the Metropolitan Museum of Art, so I've seen magnificent works of art similar to the piece you posted in Message 9.

Even though Briseis, Talthybios and Diomedes are not characters in this play, the story of Agamemnon's abduction of Briseis is an interesting and important story in terms of understanding the type of man Agamemnon is.

I'm very glad you decided to share!!!

Lily wrote: "The early passages remind me how old are some of the observations about human nature in Western literature (some of which I would have been more likely to ascribe to Shakespeare! lol!):

The watchm..."

Yes, the Watchman definitely reminds me of the Watchman in Hamlet. (It's been so long since I've read Macbeth or seen a production of it, that I don't really remember the Watchman very well in Macbeth.)

I'm not reading the version --
The Oresteia: Agamemnon / The Libation Bearers / The Eumenides which is probably the version that most of the group is reading. Business has been slow this summer, so I need to watch my budget, and I was able to get a free copy of Agamemnon on my Nook. (I haven't looked yet to see if there are free copies of the other two plays as well.)

This is a version that was available on the Nook (I didn't download it from anywhere else). It's a Gilbert Murray edition, called "The Agamemnon of Aeschylus Translated into English Rhyming Verse."

I like the translation you shared on the cycle of life better than the lines from the translation in my version:

"For the sap that springs in the young man's hand
And the valour of age, they have left the land.
And the passing old, while the dead leaf blows
And the old staff gropeth his three-foot way,
Weak as a babe and alone he goes,
A dream left wandering in the day."

I actually would have preferred a version that was NOT translated into rhyming verse. For these plays, there is no need for rhyming verse, but this was the best of all the "free versions" the Nook had to offer.

Hmmmmm. Maybe I need to find a different translation. I'm going to go to the thread on resources and questions regarding this trilogy to see if there are any recommendations of different translations.

Lily wrote: "

Greek School, Attic red figure skyphos depicting the abduction of Briseis by Agamemnon with Talthybios and Diomedes, c.480 BC. Location: Louvre, Paris, France.

Not really this play, but find I ..."

Nice pic, but please post this and other images in the resources thread. This thread is for discussion of the play.

@Barbara - I used to spend a lot of time in those Met galleries too. It's an amazing collection! The Louvre also has many Greek antiquities. I haven't been to the British museum yet, but definitely want to visit.

Barbara wrote: "Even though Briseis, Talthybios and Diomedes are not characters in this play, the story of Agamemnon's abduction of Briseis is an interesting and important story in terms of understanding the type of man Agamemnon is..."

While reading Clytemnestra's words of defense after she killed Agamemnon, I was thinking about the scene in the Iliad where Ag. takes Briseis away from Achilles, who then goes off to pout for many days while countless Greek soldiers die over Ag's capricious nature and Achilles' childish behavior. The ancient Greek audience would of course have known The Iliad well and would likely have thought Clytemnestra's murder of Ag was essentially justified not only for killing Iphigenia, but for being a not-so-great leader.

Jim wrote: "Barbara wrote: "Even though Briseis, Talthybios and Diomedes are not characters in this play, the story of Agamemnon's abduction of Briseis is an interesting and important story in terms of underst..."

Jim, I completely agree. Anyone who knows the Iliad can't possibly "feel sorry" for Agamemnon. To put it in "regular, everyday terms," my opinion of Agamemnon has always been that he's an egotistic, non-team-player, self-centered, obnoxious, mean-spirited jerk.

AND, quite frankly, (view spoiler)[ I never completely understood why Electra felt the need to "avenge" him by killing Clytemnestra, but I guess we'll be discussing that in the later plays of this trilogy. (hide spoiler)]

When it came to the arguments between Agamemnon and Achilles in The Illiad, I found Achilles to be extremely immature and obnoxious, but for some reason I always took his side over Agamemnon's because I thought Agamemnon had less "heart" than Achilles.

Barbara wrote: "AND, quite frankly, (view spoiler)[ I never completely understood why Electra felt the need to "avenge" him by killing Clytemnestra, but I guess we'll be discussing that in the later plays of this trilogy. (hide spoiler)]..."

First, am enjoying having you on this discussion, Barbara. Second, (view spoiler)[as I recall, vengeance for murder passed from generation to generation until revenge was accomplished. (hide spoiler)]

Lily wrote: "Barbara wrote: "AND, quite frankly, [spoilers removed]..."

First, am enjoying having you on this discussion, Barbara. Second, [spoilers removed]"

I would imagine, too, that in any king-based society, the king is to be respected, feared, protected, and if necessary, avenged no matter how flawed he might be. If he sacrifices his child to the gods, then his subjects must respect his decision - unless, of course, you're Clytemnestra!

Also, not only did Cly kill Ag, she took Aegisthus as a lover and de facto usurper of Ag's throne. Electra and Orestes desire to avenge Ag is then understandable despite Ag's character flaws. We'll be reading all about their motives and desires in the next play, The Libation Bearers.

Lily wrote: "Barbara wrote: "AND, quite frankly, [spoilers removed]..."

First, am enjoying having you on this discussion, Barbara. Second, [spoilers removed]"

Hi Lily!! Thank you for the nice compliment!! I'm enjoying this discussion with you and Jim as well!!

BUT, this is how I am feeling about Goodreads at this very moment: &^%^#$^*&+_)(*&^%$#@!!@#$%^&*!!!!!!!!!
BECAUSE, I just wrote a NICE, LONG, THOUGHT-PROVOKING (I hope) post about Clytemnestra here, and when I hit "POST" a window came up, informing me that my "post was not saved."

And I'm dealing with my own "Brain Pain" because I'm STILL suffering from daily headaches, so I can't rewrite the post again right now. I hope I can think clearly enough later to come back and rewrite as much of my post as I can remember.

However, one of the things that I did share in the post is that I have not been able to get a copy of Libation Bearers yet, but I'm hoping to get a copy and read it sometime this weekend.

AND, there are still many aspects of the first play, Agamemnon, that I would love to discuss.

SO, for now, I would love to ask Lily and Jim and anyone/everyone else who is joining in on the discussion of
The Oresteia: Agamemnon / The Libation Bearers / The Eumenides, what are your thoughts and feelings about Clytemnestra?? About her character and also about her action.

Again, I will try to come back later or tomorrow to share some of the things I wrote in the "lost post."

Barbara wrote: "BUT, this is how I am feeling about Goodreads at this very moment: &^%^#$^*&+_)(*&^%$#@!!@#$%^&*!!!!!!!!!
BECAUSE, I just wrote a NICE, LONG, THOUGHT-PROVOKING (I hope) post about Clytemnestra here, and when I hit "POST" a window came up, informing me that my "post was not saved." "

With Clytemnestra, the questions are, "Should she have taken a lover?" "Should she have banished Orestes?" and "Should she have killed Agamemnon and Cassandra?"

The flip side of these questions is, "Should Agamemnon have left his wife and children alone for ten years and enjoyed the company of X number of female spoils of war?" "Should Agamemnon have left Clytemnestra alone to raise her son?" "Should Agamemnon have killed their daughter Iphigenia to appease the weather gods?"

In his quest to support his brother and avenge his brother's insult at being cuckolded by Helen and Paris, didn't Agamemnon end up destroying his own household?

I think she had a reasonable score to settle...

Here's an old love song that seems appropriate to Clytemnestra:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klhK_4...

Lyrics:

A woman left lonely will soon grow tired of waiting,
She'll do crazy things, yeah, on lonely occasions.
A simple conversation for the new men now and again
Makes a touchy situation when a good face come into your head.
And when she gets lonely, she's thinking 'bout her man,
She knows he's taking her for granted, yeah yeah,
Honey, she doesn't understand, no no no no!

Well, the fevers of the night, they burn an unloved woman
Yeah, those red-hot flames try to push old love aside.
A woman left lonely, she's the victim of her man, yes she is.
When he can't keep up his own way, good Lord,
She's got to do the best that she can, yeah!
A woman left lonely, Lord, that lonely girl,
Lord, Lord, Lord!

Jim wrote: "...A woman left lonely will soon grow tired of waiting,
She'll do crazy things, yeah, on lonely occasions...."

In their sometimes over-the-top plots, the Greek plays still get at fundamental human challenges, not unlike the biblical ones of David and Uriah, Samson and Delilah, Joseph and Potiphar's wife, Sarah and Hagar,.... Sexual desire, ambition, jealousy,..., our Western scribes have been recording the stories thereon for a long, long time. At least we seem to have fewer about overt human sacrifice to appease occult powers.

With Clytemnestra we have the inevitable contrasts with Penelope on Ithaca -- but not sure one can say anything meaningful about the impact of the spouse of each upon the choices of these women. Still, the sacrifice of a daughter to appease the winds so an army can go to war? What might be our modern analogies? Is it stretching too far to even consider such? (Perhaps decisions about the care of a terminally ill child or spousal pressure to complete or to terminate a pregnancy? What might an author portraying a modern Clytemnestra put into his/her plot and characterization?)

This is from Clytemnestra's Wiki article. One sees that her myth evolves with time and from author to author:

"Clytemnestra was the daughter of Tyndareus and Leda, the king and queen of Sparta. According to the myth, Zeus appeared to Leda in the form of a swan, seducing and impregnating her. Leda produced four offspring from two eggs: Castor and Clytemnestra from one egg, and Helen and Polydeuces from the other. Therefore, Castor and Clytemnestra were fathered by Tyndareus, whereas Helen and Polydeuces were fathered by Zeus.

"Agamemnon and his brother Menelaus were in exile at the home of Tyndareus. In due time the brothers married Tyndareus' two daughters: Agamemnon marrying Clytemnestra and Menelaus marrying Helen. In a late variation, Euripides's Iphigenia at Aulis, Clytemnestra's first husband was Tantalus, King of Pisa (in the western Peloponnese), who was slain by Agamemnon. Agamemnon also murdered her infant son. He then forcibly made Clytemnestra his wife. In another version, her first husband was King of Lydia, which was known to the Greeks for its shrine of the labrys, the double-bladed ax that some say Clytemnestra used to kill Agamemnon."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clytemne...

Anyone here remember why A&M were in exile in the court of Tyndareus? (Maybe I'll get around to go looking? I'll report in if I do.)

Lily wrote: "What might an author portraying a modern Clytemnestra put into his/her plot and characterization?..."

I suspect this comment may be off-the wall, but when I saw this news clip tonight, I wondered if it had edges of a modern Clytemnestra story -- problems seemingly so overwhelming some woman chose to address them with murder? (Yes, but, Clytemnestra had all the issues that went with royal blood and genealogy and privilege.)

http://www.wcpo.com/dpp/news/local_ne...

Lily wrote: "Lily wrote: "What might an author portraying a modern Clytemnestra put into his/her plot and characterization?..."

...problems seemingly so overwhelming some woman chose to address them with murder? (Yes, but, Clytemnestra had all the issues that went with royal blood and genealogy and privilege.)"

What I wrote here was gnawing at me when that feeling was reinforced by what I read from Erich Auerbach's Mimesis this morning:

"Living in the nineteenth century, in a time of universal suffrage, of democracy, of liberalism, we asked ourselves if what is called 'the lower classes' did not have a right to the Novel; if that world beneath a world, the people, must remain under the literary interdict and the disdain of authors who have so far kept silent upon the soul and the heart which it may have. We asked ourselves if, for the writer and the reader, there were still, in these years of equality in which we live, unworthy classes, troubles too base, dramas too foul-mouthed, catastrophes too little noble in their terror...." From the preface of Germine Lacerteux by Edmond and Jules Goncourt, quoted on p. 495 of Mimesis: The Representation of Reality in Western Literature.

Barbara wrote: "Lily, thank you for sharing the diagram of the family tree. It's great. And I LOVE the photos you shared in Message 2 and Message 9 in this thread.

...Agamemnon's abduction of Briseis is an interesting and important story in terms of understanding the type of man Agamemnon is...."

Barbara, thank you for intuiting why I included the figures I did here rather than in resources. Sometimes (too often?) I throw things out in conversations just to get reactions rather than fully explaining why or my chain of reasoning or thought -- if such even exist, lol.

For Jim, I'm afraid this is at least the third time I've stuck my two left feet under the dance he was trying to lead! :-( So let me at least add a word or two about why a picture of the amphitheater in a discussion of the play itself. When I lived the Twin Cities, experimental theatre was at a height in the area. (Much of it subsequently migrated to San Francisco.) The first time I saw Antigone performed was in a small theatre in St. Paul. All parts were played almost helter-skelter by men and women (the directors probably parsed the lines with some careful thought, but h-s is the impression remaining across the years). It helped one think about those familiar lines and whether to continue to associate them with gender stereotypes. As I started thinking about this play and looked at the vast panorama of such an amphitheater, I found myself wondering the impact such certainly had on its production. (Now, could that all have logically been treated as background information. Sure. Just that my mind didn't do that. For reasons I can both articulate and cannot, the staging and the genealogy of the characters were much more front and center in wrestling with the play.)

Barbara, I do hope you will come back with at least tidbits of what was lost about Clytemnestra when you last tried to post.

Have I said, I was fascinated by the use of lighthouses and flares and fires to transmit news at the speed of light some 3,000 years before telegraph, let alone I-phones?

Lily wrote: "Have I said, I was fascinated by the use of lighthouses and flares and fires to transmit news at the speed of light some 3,000 years before telegraph, let alone I-phones?"

hahaha!!! Lily, I LOVE what you wrote about the use of lighthouses and fires to transmit news!!! It's so funny, because while I'm reading Agamemnon (YES, I am still on Agamemnon!!!) and I read about how everyone knows almost EXACTLY what happened in Troy just based on the flames, I usually stop and think about the unrealistic aspect of it, but only for a second or two and then I move on and continue enjoying the story.

Why am I still on Agamemnon??? Well, I had read it a few times in the past, so when I first downloaded the free edition to my Nook (which is not as good as the edition that's recommended by Jim in this group, but that's around $12.00 and business has been very slow this summer), anyway, I browsed through the entire play at first, just to "refresh my memory" of the story.

But then I realized that I want to read the entire story, word for word, because even though my edition is a "no frills" edition (no annotations, no explanations), I suddenly remembered all of the reasons why I love the Greek classics so much. I love the language, the stories, the big, dramatic moments, the characters, the gods and goddesses being so involved in the lives of the mortals.

SO, even though I know the whole story, I decided I wanted to read it over again, word for word. It takes me a long time to read because I work very long hours, so I don't have a lot of time to read each day, and I often juggle a few books at a time. (I'm STILL not finished with Gravity's Rainbow either!!!!)

I may be breaking Jim's rules as well, because I'm talking about my "overall reading experience" as opposed to just talking about the story of Agamemnon, SO, I will come back to Agamemnon now.

Lily, I will definitely come back and try to remember all the notes I wrote on Clytemnestra. I'm on a deadline for my work right now, but I just wanted to post here so that you and Jim know that I am still reading this book and I hope the two of you (and maybe some others) are still interested in discussing it.

I'm hoping to get the The Oresteia: Agamemnon / The Libation Bearers / The Eumenides, which is the recommended edition, within the next week or so. It's available on the Nook, and it's very much worth the $12.00, but I've needed to prioritize my spending this month.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that there is still a lot I'd like to share and discuss about Agamemnon before moving on to the next two plays, because there is SO MUCH TO SAY ABOUT IT!!!!

I will definitely be back with more thoughts. Lily, I'm so glad that you're still interested in discussing Agamemnon. There are so many aspects to this story, and so many different ways of looking at it -- between the three plays of The Oresteia I think we could be posting here for a year or more!!!

I'll linger on these. I, too, am juggling several books, but was enjoying reading parts of Agamemnon this afternoon. I have two version, Fagles and Vellacot (both Penguin), that I'd like to compare, especially for passages that escape me for their meaning. I don't know what my library may have for commentary on these, but right now I am finding myself wondering about the positions the Chorus is taking towards these events as they unfold and how the audience might react.

Jim wrote: "With Clytemnestra, the questions are, "Should she have taken a lover?" "Should she have banished Orestes?" and "Should she have killed Agamemnon and Cassandra?"

The flip side of these questions is, "Should Agamemnon have left his wife and children alone for ten years and enjoyed the company of X number of female spoils of war?" "Should Agamemnon have left Clytemnestra alone to raise her son?" "Should Agamemnon have killed their daughter Iphigenia to appease the weather gods?"

Hi all, I just finished Agamemnon this morning and have been mulling it over today and catching up on your comments. This is my first time reading The Oresteia. I am reading the Penguin Fagles translation.

The way I understand it, The House of Atreus is doomed under a gruesome and relentless curse. Can either Agamemnon or Clytemnestra change the course of their horrific destiny? In Aeschylus' view, it seems the answer is no. In that case then, there are no what ifs or should haves only what is. The characters are simply acting out their destiny (which seems pretty depressing, but in this case makes for great drama).

Lily wrote: "In a late variation, Euripides's Iphigenia at Aulis, Clytemnestra's first husband was Tantalus, King of Pisa (in the western Peloponnese), who was slain by Agamemnon. Agamemnon also murdered her infant son. He then forcibly made Clytemnestra his wife. "

Fascinating!
(Of course now I want to read Iphigenia at Aulis!)

Hey all! I just read Anne Carson's Agamemnon. I've previously read translations by Fagles and Ted Hughes. Hughes' is a little more difficult but fun anyway; Fagles is Fagles, dependable. I was quite fond of Carson's, which is similar in readability to Fagles.

Interested in y'all's thoughts about the unknowable Cassandra. (Which by the way, when we were cataloging crimes up there above - Agamemnon brought his sex slave home and was basically like "Oh and here's the slave I've been banging, she'll be staying with us." What purpose does she serve? (Uh, within the story that is?) I love her speech, but I don't fully get it.

Alex wrote: "Hey all! I just read Anne Carson's Agamemnon. I've previously read translations by Fagles and Ted Hughes. Hughes' is a little more difficult but fun anyway; Fagles is Fagles, dependable. I was quit..."

Cassandra recounts some of the bloody history of the Atreides to remind the audience about the curse and the Furies who dance on the palace walls, as well as telling the chorus that she and Agamemnon are about to be killed by Clytemnestra. Her vision prepares the audience for Agamemnon's murder, which the audience hears but doesn't see (approx. lines 1368 - 1390)

At another level, Cassandra (a priestess of Apollo) is a reminder of the Trojan loss (Troy was supported by Apollo) and the victory of the Greeks, who were supported by Athena. Greek Clytemnestra kills Trojan Cassandra. In yo face Apollo!!!

What is interesting is that in the Eumenides, it takes the efforts of Apollo to begin healing Orestes, along with the support of Athena to talk the Furies into abandoning the ancient vendetta laws and helping to cleanse the House of Atreus and break the cycle of vengeance killing. Two gods working together to bring balance and justice to the human realm.

Alex wrote: "I love her speech, but I don't fully get it."

Apparently nobody does.

Jim wrote: "Alex wrote: "Hey all! I just read Anne Carson's Agamemnon. I've previously read translations by Fagles and Ted Hughes. Hughes' is a little more difficult but fun anyway; Fagles is Fagles, dependabl..."

The Eumenides is my favorite of the three plays. I like the way that justice is handled in the end. Even out of a violent story like this one it is possible to have mercy.

Alex wrote: "Hey all! I just read Anne Carson's Agamemnon. I've previously read translations by Fagles and Ted Hughes. Hughes' is a little more difficult but fun anyway; Fagles is Fagles, dependable. I was quit..."

I read Ted Hughes translation and liked it, I enjoy his poetry. It is interesting that he translated these plays at the end of his life. My public library did not have Fagles translation but I have read other works he has translated and they are dependable and often more welcoming to a modern reader than some of the other translators.

I have the Carson and just read the introduction (and am reminded why I love Anne Carson). I'm going to try to read her Ag. today.

I'm looking for a good, annotated version. Numbers or letters throughout the dialogue that will take me to explanatory notes. (But a version that's available on the Nook.)

Fagels is available on the Nook. Are there good explanatory notes which are marked throughout the dialogue??

I finished the version -- "The Agamemnon of Aeschylus, Translated into English Rhyming Verse, with explanatory notes by Gilbert Murray" on my Nook. It was free on the Nook, and the explanatory notes are very good, but they're not noted in the actual text. Gilbert Murray wrote a great preface, and he does have notes in the back, but it's difficult to match up the notes in the back because since it's an e-book the page numbers don't match.

In all of the Barnes & Noble "Classics" books, most of which are $3.99 on the Nook, the notations are numbered in the text of the story or play or poem, and you just click on the number to get the explanation. The Fagels edition will be worth purchasing for $12.00 if it has that feature.

Jim, I'm sorry for talking about "editions" as opposed to the actual story in this thread. But it seems that a few more people have recently joined the discussion and shared (here) which edition they're reading, and if I put this post into the "questions and resources" thread I might not get any responses.

I have a TON of comments regarding my thoughts on the story and the writing, and on certain things I'm confused about in this story, and I know I keep saying I'll post them here, but, once again, I'm in "deadline hell" with my work. BUT, THIS WEEK -- as early as possible in the week, I will be back here to put in my thoughts about The Agamemnon.

I will say this much for now.... in most stories, plays, novels, etc., the reader usually sides with one of the characters (especially in a story such as The Agamemnon, where it involves someone killing someone else.) I'm guessing that most readers of this play will side with Clytemnestra, but for some reason I really do not like Clytemnestra. This does not mean that I'm on Agamemnon's side, but I feel that I "understand" him and understand his actions more than I understand Cly.

However, I wanted to share Gilbert Murray's comments about Clytemnestra, which are in the preface of the edition I read: "The greatest and most human character of the whole play is Clytemnestra. She is conceived on the grand Aeschylean scale, a scale which makes even Lady Macbeth and Beatrice Cenci seem small; she is more the kinswoman of Brynhild. Yet she is full not only of character, but of subtle psychology. She is the first and leading example of that time-honoured ornament of the tragic stage, the sympathetic, or semi-sympathetic, heroine-criminal." ~Gilbert Murray

WOW -- that is a VERY strong statement to make about this character, but I personally do not agree with it. (Maybe I need to read a different edition, which may help me "see" things differently.) Gilbert Murray is a scholar and certainly knows what he's talking about (a lot more than I do!!!) But his quote that I just shared is SO powerful, and I just didn't get such a "powerful" sense of Clytemnestra.

I'm wondering what the rest of you think about this.

Barbara wrote: "I'm looking for a good, annotated version. Numbers or letters throughout the dialogue that will take me to explanatory notes. (But a version that's available on the Nook.)

Fagels is available on t..."

In Fagles edition, the notes are not indicated within the text. Instead, they are at the end of the book and are indicated by line numbers - which are in the margins next to the text.

BTW, the Fagles edition weighs less than a Nook and I'm sure you could find a used copy in most good-sized bookstores.

Whether or not you "like" Cly, you certainly must respect her strength. She has a code of values and she sticks to it, warped as it may be by her outrage over Iphigenia's sacrifice. Where the logic breaks down for me is that she mourns the loss of Iphigenia, but sends Orestes into exile and keeps Electra at arm's length. So then I ask, does she really love her children or is she just angry that Agamemnon trespassed on her authority as "mother". And what exactly does "mother" mean if she pushes her living children away from her? But of course, these are 21st century questions...

Erika wrote: "I have the Carson and just read the introduction (and am reminded why I love Anne Carson). I'm going to try to read her Ag. today."

Agreed Erika, I thought Carson's introductions - to the book as a whole and also to each play - were really smart.

Jim wrote: "Whether or not you "like" Cly, you certainly must respect her strength. She has a code of values and she sticks to it, warped as it may be by her outrage over Iphigenia's sacrifice. "

Totally. I didn't find anyone in the play sympathetic, but I did find Clytemnestra magnetic.

Interesting point about rooting for someone, Barbara. It makes me think of Antigone, in which Sophocles carefully constructs a situation where both Creon and Antigone have points. I sympathize clearly with Antigone, but I've seen others go the other way. Euripides' Medea is similarly ambiguous. Maybe this is a theme for the Greek tragedians?

Alex wrote: "...Maybe this is a theme for the Greek tragedians? ..."

It seems to me that it is awfully true for life itself. Maybe the great observers and recorders help put that in our faces? Yet, we certainly know how to choose what we favor -- as campaign rhetoric shows us only too readily. Interesting to consider how our values interact with our reading.

Funky case in point: I received one of those interesting spam mails this week showing three animals, Bengal tiger, lion, and bear, raised together since cubs, captured in a drug cartel raid, and now still living seemingly in brotherly fondness together in a reserve (GA?). Those images were still with me when I read the passage in Agamemnon about the shepherd raising the lion cub that eventually turned on his family. From there, my mind jumped to the famous passage from Isaiah that the lamb and the lion shall lie down together. Unusual circumstance versus reality versus hope? Or is that too simplistic? Or overly wrought?

Jim wrote: "...warped as it may be by her outrage over Iphigenia's sacrifice..."

The place of human sacrifice in humankind's march through time is a haunting one. Certainly we can argue that we have forms of it today -- with what might qualify being highly variable. (For fun, ask Akin.) I think it is only in recent years that I have come to stand a moment in silence before the Gold Star wreath at Memorial Day observances. I know why my Grandmother wished the bomb over Hiroshima had been dropped a few days earlier (her son probably would not have been lost in the skies over Okinawa), even though we must live into a world still struggling with the consequences of it ever having been developed, let alone used.

It may be more of a paraphrase than a translation, but I am liking Ted Hughes' version very much:

Chorus:
"And when you made sacrifices
To rid your fleet of a bothersome headwind
And cheer up a demoralised army
Some called it a monstrous act.
But it seemed to work.
Anyway, all that's in the past.
Your victory is ours too.
A good enough end secured
Buys out all the interim that seemed doubtful."

Community and individual carry the burden of accountability? The gods will reckon? Or maybe not?

I don't quickly find a good timeline on the practice of human sacrifice, but Wiki has this: "...By the Iron Age, with the associated developments in religion (the Axial Age), human sacrifice was becoming less common throughout the Old World, and came to be widely looked down upon as barbaric already in pre-modern times (Classical Antiquity)...."

Jim wrote: Whether or not you "like" Cly, you certainly must respect her strength. She has a code of values and she sticks to it, warped as it may be by her outrage over Iphigenia's sacrifice. Where the logic breaks down for me is that she mourns the loss of Iphigenia, but sends Orestes into exile...


Jim, EXACTLY!!! It's the situation with Orestes and Electra that confuses me, regarding Clytemnestra!!

She kills Ag for sacrificing Iphigenia, but if she's in such pain over the loss of one of her three children, why is it so easy for her to be apart from her two living children?? If Iphigenia had survived, would Cly and Iphigenia have the same "non-existent" relationship that Cly has with Electra and Orestes???

And I think I need to seriously "brush up" on my Greek Tragedies. Here are some things I don't understand (I will look at the "resource" thread here to see if there is any background info), but for now, here are some questions I have:
1) Why was Orestes sent into exile??
2) Where is Electra??

Jim, I do agree with you, and yes, I do respect her strength. (Or, maybe I should say that I respect her strength regarding the way she defends herself for killing Agememnon.) And YES, I guess one of the reasons I don't like Cly is because she "speaks" so strongly of her "poor, dead child" yet if her maternal instincts are so strong, why isn't she being a mother to her other two children??

I also did not like the way, early in the story, Clytemnestra came out of the palace (before Agamemnon arrived) and she blatantly LIED to the elders who were gathered about her palace, telling them how "faithful" she has remained to Agamemnon for all those years and how happy she is that he is returning. THEN, she kills Agamemnon and Cassandra, and feels that it's perfectly fine to go out to the elders and tell them that she was dishonest with them earlier, which is when she reveals that she killed Ag and Cass, and the reason she killed Ag. (But never really explained why she killed Cassandra.)

Alex, as far as rooting for specific characters, maybe you're right -- maybe it is a theme for Greek tragedians. If that's the case, it proves that the Greek tragedians felt that their audience was smarter than many current writers feel about their readers/audiences. I don't like when a writer makes it SO obvious regarding how I should feel about the characters in a book I'm reading. I'm a 53 year old woman, and I'd like to think I'm intelligent enough and experienced in "the world" enough to make my own decisions regarding the characters. SO, Alex, I really like the examples you used -- Antigone and Medea -- I love the idea that we, as the audience/reader, can see different sides and points of view. (P.S. -- I somewhat sympathized with Polonius and Laertes in Hamlet!!! But don't tell anyone!!!)

As far as Agememnon, I go back and forth regarding how I feel about him, but I DEFINITELY do sympathize with him, for various reasons. Here's the main reason I sympathize with him:
For those of you who have read Euripides' Iphigenia in Tauris (or was it Iphigenia in Aulis -- I'm referring to the first one, where Agamemnon sacrificed Iphigenia -- sorry!!!! I'm afraid to leave this post to look it up, because I don't want to accidentally delete the post, but I'll be back with the correct one of the two plays -- the one I'm referring to.)

ANYWAY, for anyone who has read the Euripides play, we know how tormented Agamemnon was about sacrificing his own daughter. But when "the gods" ask for a sacrifice, the mortals are kind of left without much choice. Sacrificing a child to "the gods" or to "God" is something that had been happening in many cultures over many, many centuries.

AND, in the Euripides' play I'm referring to, Agamemnon even tried to stop Iphigenia from coming, but the message was crossed on the way. SO, let's just say that Agamemnon did NOT say "OK, sure, I'll be happy to sacrifice my daughter -- and make her death as painful as possible." He really was in a very confused, agitated, horrible state of mind over this. And when the ships were finally able to sail, he did NOT say "Yay!! I'm SO GLAD that I get credit for the winds blowing the correct way now, it just feels GREAT that I sacrificed my daughter for this."

I guess I just made my point pretty clear. LOL. I'm not trying to turn Agamemnon into the Dalai Lama, but I'm trying to show that the sacrifice of Iphigenia was not something he had much of a choice over. If anything, I would think Clytemnestra would understand that when a god asks for a sacrifice, in their culture, there's usually not much of a choice.

Having said all that, I think Clytemnestra uses Iphigenia as an excuse. Ag was gone for ten years, she took a lover who was an enemy of her husband, so she needed a good reason to get rid of Agamemnon for good, so she could live "happily ever after" in the palace with her new lover (who becomes her new husband.)

FINALLY -- If Clytemnestra or ANYONE wants to be angry with someone for the Trojan War, resulting in not only thousands of people on both sides being brutally killed, in addition to the sacrifice of Iphigenia, Agamemnon is not the one to blame!! Here are the people and gods to blame -- Aphrodite (for offering Helen to Paris), Paris for feeling he can just take another man's wife, Helen for going along with him, and Menelaus for using his power to get one thousand ships to set sail for Troy just to reclaim his wife (instead of dealing one on one with Paris.)

So THOSE are the people Clytemnestra should be angry with. I, personally, am not angry with any of them. Thank goodness for Aphrodite, Helen, Paris, and all the others -- think of all the fabulous literature (even up to this day) that's been written based on these amazing Greek writers!!!

Lily wrote: The place of human sacrifice in humankind's march through time is a haunting one. Certainly we can argue that we have forms of it today -- with what might qualify being highly variable.

Lily, I absolutely agree. LOL -- you managed to say in one short paragraph the same thing I just used a million words to write!!! (I think it's called Attention Deficit Disorder, on my part -- I'm thinking of so many different aspects of this discussion while I'm writing a post, that my brain just makes me keep going, hitting one key after another on my keyboard!!)

Barbara wrote: "I also did not like the way, early in the story, Clytemnestra came out of the palace (before Agamemnon arrived) and she blatantly LIED to the elders who were gathered about her palace, telling them how 'faithful' she has remained to Agamemnon for all those years and how happy she is that he is returning. THEN,..."

I found it scary to realize how little some aspects of politics and power of position have NOT changed over the millenniums!

Thx for your post. A lot crammed into it, including your questions! I may try to respond to a spot or two more some other times.

Lily wrote: "Barbara wrote: "I also did not like the way, early in the story, Clytemnestra came out of the palace (before Agamemnon arrived) and she blatantly LIED to the elders who were gathered about her pala..."

Lily's Response: I found it scary to realize how little some aspects of politics and power of position have NOT changed over the millenniums!

Barbara's response to Lily: This is one of the reasons I love the Greek Classics so much -- other than all of the modern "stuff" we have (transportation, communication, etc, etc, etc) not much has changed at all!!!

I would LOVE it if someone can answer my questions regarding why Orestes was exiled and where Electra was during all this time!!! Is there a play (written by Aeschylus or one of the others) that explains the story behind Orestes and Electra??? (Actually, maybe it's in the following play in the Oresteia -- In which case, I need to get the rest of this trilogy as soon as possible.)

Jim, thank you for the suggestion on the Fagels edition (and for letting me know that the paper copy is lighter than the Nook.) I'm on a tight budget, but I do have to say that if the Fagels edition is GREAT, it would be worth it to have The Oresteia on my Nook, even for $12.00. BUT, one of the best things about annotations in the Nook is that you can just click the number (which is usually in the text) and it takes you to the explanation.) If Fagels' Nook edition does not have this "luxury" I may as well get the paper edition (if I can get it for less than the $12.00 Nook price.)

Barbara -- I haven't had a chance to "dig" on your Orestes question, but you might take a look at his Wiki entry for a start. I found it confusing, but these lines particularly tantalizing:

"Orestes appears also to be a dramatic prototype for all persons whose crime is mitigated by extenuating circumstances. These legends belong to an age when higher ideas of law and of social duty were being established; the implacable blood-feud of primitive society gives place to a fair trial, and in Athens, when the votes of the judges are evenly divided, mercy prevails."

He particularly (even more than many other classical antiquity figures) seems to have different "bios", depending on the author?

Also, this: "He is the subject of several Ancient Greek plays and of various myths connected with his madness and purification, which retain obscure threads of much older ones."

(Bold added.)

Barbara wrote: "Barbara's response to Lily: This is one of the reasons I love the Greek Classics so much -- other than all of the modern "stuff" we have (transportation, communication, etc, etc, etc) not much has changed at all!!!..."

Barbara, I respond with mixed feelings to that comment. I think it makes a difference that Western civilizations have moved through scholasticism, the Enlightenment, collapse of feudalism and monarchies, the rise of nation states, the world wars of last century, globalization, post-modern thought,... -- but I am not certain I could articulate a single change that couldn't be rebutted with an analogy from Classical Antiquity.

I agree with Barabara's earlier comment that there is so much to discuss in this play! I have read the Fagles and Carson's translation now. I really love this play (and can't wait to read the next two)!

I just have to say that the dark irony in Clytemnestra's speeches is amazing.

I also wanted to get to the idea of justice which is so central to the play.

There is justice in the sense that "good will prevail" (Carson). Fagles says, "good will win out in glory in the end." (I like "good will prevail" because its simpler and more direct--using the word "glory" muddles the idea a bit, BUT I have no clue what the original says!). One thing I love about this interpretation of justice in the context of this play is the extreme irony of it. Is it at all possible for "good" to prevail amidst all of the murder and deception?

Of course, we also have to ask ourselves what "good" really means. Societal harmony? Divine authority? Fairness?

Obviously, justice as vengeance is a major aspect of the play. Hello Clytemnestra! I found the definition of Retributivism from the Wikipedia entry on Justice to be interesting:

"The retributivist will think the utilitarian's argument disastrously mistaken. If someone does something wrong, we must respond to it, and to him or her, as an individual, not as a part of a calculation of overall welfare. To do otherwise is to disrespect him or her as an individual human being. If the crime had victims, it is to disrespect them, too. Wrongdoing must be balanced or made good in some way, and so the criminal deserves to be punished. Retributivism emphasizes retribution – payback – rather than maximization of welfare. [...] it is sometimes argued that retributivism is merely revenge in disguise.[13] However, there are differences between retribution and revenge: the former is impartial and has a scale of appropriateness, whereas the latter is personal and potentially unlimited in scale." (emphasis mine)

I wonder if the whole Oresteia is dealing with the evolution from revenge (the curse of the House of Atreus) to retribution? I have no idea because I haven't read the whole cycle, but I'll be thinking about that and the limits of justice and the implementation of justice in society as I move on.

Does anyone else think Aegisthus is a buffoon?

It seems that this is one way that Aeschylus challenges the perceptions of the audience. I understand in other versions of the story it was Aegisthus who actually killed Agamemnon. Aeschylus gives all the power to Clytemnestra. She plans the murder and she executes it. HE brags and boasts and blows a lot of hot air, but doesn't DO anything.

I have another thought that I'm not going to articulate very well. But I was thinking about how all the major characters are in conflict with themselves. Agamemnon is faced (before the play) with the terrible internal conflict of having to choose between his role as king (kill Iphegenia) and father (do not kill Iphegenia). Later he has to choose to accept praise as a human king (do not walk on the red tapestries) or as the god-like hero Clytemnestra tries to convince him he is (walk on the tapestries). Clytemnestra is so smart, powerful, and articulate that she seems almost to be a man but she is completely consumed by her moral righteousness as a mother. She is morally righteous in seeking vengeance for her daughter's death and morally bankrupt in having an affair with Aegisthus. Cassandra is gifted with clear vision and searing perception and cursed with histrionic, incomprehensible speech.

Is this a classical view of human nature? Is it Aeschylus' view? In any case, it makes the characters more real and compelling and thought provoking for me.

Erika wrote: "Does anyone else think Aegisthus is a buffoon?

It seems that this is one way that Aeschylus challenges the perceptions of the audience. I understand in other versions of the story it was Aegisthu..."

Aeschylus casts Cly as the killer to heighten the dramatic impact/conflict of Orestes' later vengeance. If Aegisthus had killed Ag, then Orestes' vengeance would have been - I don't know - run of the mill? With Cly as Ag's killer, the conflict for Orestes gets cranked WAY up. I have to avenge my father, but I have to kill my mother to do so. Talk about a no-win situation! Plus, he has Apollo breathing down his neck, basically telling him he's screwed if he doesn't avenge Ag, but a little less screwed if he kills Cly. Should I stay or should I go now?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBtikM...

As far as the buffoon aspect, it increases the contrast between Ag, the beloved heroic king, and Aegisthus, the loser cousin who makes Cly's adultery even more distasteful to her subjects.

Jim wrote: Aeschylus casts Cly as the killer to heighten the dramatic impact/conflict of Orestes' later vengeance. If Aegisthus had killed Ag, then Orestes' vengeance would have been - I don't know - run of the mill?"With Cly as Ag's killer, the conflict for Orestes gets cranked WAY up.

Indeed! And again we are presented with the conflict that I ramble on about in my last comment.

"This indecision's bugging me....Exactly who'm I supposed to be?...Don't you know which clothes even fit me?" Ah, the Clash! Happy belated 60th Joe Strummer!


Jim wrote: "As far as the buffoon aspect, it increases the contrast between Ag, the beloved heroic king, and Aegisthus, the loser cousin who makes Cly's adultery even more distasteful to her subjects. "

Aeschylus is very effective there!

Erika wrote: "Does anyone else think Aegisthus is a buffoon?

It seems that this is one way that Aeschylus challenges the perceptions of the audience. I understand in other versions of the story it was Aegisthu..."

Erika, I had all types of "negative" thoughts about Aegisthus, but was not able to come up with a specific word to describe him. So, thank you for coming up with a PERFECT description of him -- a buffoon!!! HA -- and this is an understatement!!!

By the way, when I had discussed the reasons I didn't "like" Clytemnestra, I left out one of the most important reasons.... what on EARTH does she see in Aegisthus???!! Okay, so she felt she needed to kill Agamemnon for her own reasons, but to put a "buffoon" like Aegisthus on the throne in Agememnon's place????

And I also have to add that in spite of my "complaints" of Clytemnestra, now that I'm further away from finishing the play I realize that I do sympathize (somewhat) with Clytemnestra, and I do not "dislike" her as much as I did earlier. (This happens to me a lot with reading -- my feelings and opinions on certain characters or plots tend to change a few times while I'm still reading, and continue to change as I think about the story once I'm finished reading -- sometimes for many weeks and/or longer, especially in works as important as the Greek classics.)

In fact, although Aegisthus definitely acted like a buffoon, I can even somewhat sympathize with him. It was his father who was tricked into eating his own children (Aegisthus' two brothers, or half-brothers -- I think Aegisthus had a different mother.)

By the way -- in one of Clytemnestra's speeches, she mentions Helen, but I wasn't able to tell if she was defending Helen (her half-sister) or if she was against Helen. Did Clytemnestra resent Helen for being a cause of the Trojan War, which, in turn, was the cause of the sacrifice of Iphigenia??? Or did she sympathize with Helen and place all the blame on Paris??