In this episode of Mindful Leadership, Marc explores the theme “Live What You See, Not What You Know,” inspired by artist Ruth Asawa’s teaching and Zen philosophy. Marc begins with a guided meditation to help listeners settle in, then shares insights from his visit to the San Francisco Museum of Modern Art. Through personal stories, Zen teachings, and poetry, Marc encourages embracing curiosity, direct experience, and perspective-taking in daily life. Tune in for practical wisdom on living with openness, creativity, and mindful presence.

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EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

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[00:00:00] Marc: Welcome to Mindful Leadership with Marc Lesser, a biweekly podcast featuring conversations with leaders and teachers exploring the intersection of keeping our hearts open and effective action in these most uncertain and challenging times. Please support our work by making a donation at Marc lesser slash donate.

[00:00:37] Marc: This episode is called Live What You See, not What You Know, and we’ll begin with a short, uh, guided meditation just to help us settle and arrive. And from there, I, I share a short practice, something that jumped out at me when I was. At the San Francisco Museum of Modern Art recently, and I went to [00:01:00] see the Ruth Asawa exhibit.

[00:01:02] Marc: She instructs her students to draw. Draw what you see, not what you know. This simple directive reminded me of a simple, and I think profound zen or human instruction about. Living, living what you see, living with more directness and curiosity and wonder less about being in your head. It’s a way of opening doors.

[00:01:30] Marc: So let’s, um, but let’s begin with a short guided meditation and we’ll see. We’ll see what happens next. Uh, thanks for joining.

[00:01:48] Marc: Uh, let’s begin with a few minutes of sitting quietly together. And I’m gonna start by ringing my bell.[00:02:00]

[00:02:12] Marc: Yeah, the bell. It’s an invitation to stop, to pause.

[00:02:19] Marc: To, uh, let go of the busyness of the day. I’m remembering a, a phrase I recently came across from Suzuki Roshi who says that we all, we all have a lot of rubbish, a lot of rubbish in our minds, right? What, um, remembering to, to buy the coffee or like. Making an appointment with DMV or to do this or do that many, many things and these are all, you know, maybe important, but maybe not so much right now.

[00:02:56] Marc: Letting them go and [00:03:00] just being here. Just being here and with our breath and body hearts and mind.

[00:03:16] Marc: Yeah, just, uh, allowing, allowing the richness of the breath, the richness of, uh, our existence. What is it like to be here? What is it like to be alive? And nothing, nothing to accomplish or do or change, just.

[00:03:48] Marc: Breathing in and breathing out,

[00:03:59] Marc: you know, letting [00:04:00] you know thoughts, thoughts will come and go and great, great. That we notice. And, uh. Returning, uh, returning to the breath, returning to the body, but not, you know, not, doesn’t have to be neutral, can be with

[00:04:24] Marc: as much as possible a uh, a warm hearted. Warm hearted curiosity.

[00:04:38] Marc: Allowing and, uh, accepting ourselves. Whatever, whatever comes up, whether it’s grief or sadness, or joy, or patience or impatience, um, it’s all good. It’s all good here. Just noticing.[00:05:00]

[00:05:18] Marc: And leaning in, uh, leaning into the quiet, uh, to the silence. I wonder, you know, what will, what will arise out out of the silence?

[00:05:37] Marc: And no, no real effort required, and certainly no extra effort just being here.[00:06:00]

[00:06:03] Marc: And I am, I’m gonna ring my bell. This bell doesn’t feel like my bell. I’m not sure where this bell comes from. I’ve had it a long, long time, and it’s. Feel like my, my, uh, job is to take care of it, gonna bring it, to make a possible transition. You’re welcome to keep sitting or come join me in whatever’s, whatever’s next.

[00:06:52] Marc: So live what you see, not what you know. Now. This is the, uh, [00:07:00] topic of this, uh, next, uh, bit of time together. And, and this comes from, uh, I recently went to the. Uh, the Museum of Modern Art in downtown San Francisco, where I saw the, uh, Ruth Asawa, uh, exhibit, uh, Ruth Asawa, uh, is, uh, amazing, uh, revered artist who had a way of turning ordinary objects into artwork.

[00:07:31] Marc: Uh, there’s a, there’s a great, a large photograph, uh, on the wall of this exhibit of, it’s a photograph of her living room and. It’s, uh, her and, uh, four young children, and there’s just art objects everywhere. You know, just sim simple, you know, newspaper and blocks and painting and paintbrushes and just all spread out.

[00:07:59] Marc: And, [00:08:00] and this, you can feel the sense of creativity and joy and, and on the wall next to one of her. Pieces of art was, she says she instructs her students to, uh, draw, draw what you see, uh, not what you know. And when I saw this, I was captivated and I thought, oh, this is, this is a great zen practice or human practice, right?

[00:08:31] Marc: Um, and I, I kind of took draw and made it. Live. Live what you see and not what you know. Right. So this is, I think, a teaching and encouragement to, to get out of our heads and to be in our bodies, uh, to get out of, uh, kind of intellectualizing and, you know, which it’s important to intellectualize. It’s an important, maybe it’s the, [00:09:00] uh, the scientific mind that wants to.

[00:09:05] Marc: Wants to live and see beyond, beyond what we can just see. And that’s important. But this is a, this is another way of being in the world, another way of being of, uh, seeing everything as fresh and new and this aspiration, I think, to, to see, uh, more clearly. Right. So this, uh, this zen vow, this vow that comes from Buddhism, you know, delusions are inexhaustible.

[00:09:33] Marc: Uh, I. Uh, vow to end them. You know, there’s a, an image, an image from the zen world is that we, humans are, we’re like frogs at the bottom of a well looking up, right? It’s a great image of frog at the bottom of the well looking up, and we, we only see a small slice of the world. We know, we know that there’s this whole big, giant world out [00:10:00] there, but we can only see a small, a small part of it.

[00:10:03] Marc: And that’s, you know, that’s our, uh, that, that that’s what it’s like, you know, to be human right. We we’re often, we’re often very curious about other people’s motivation or other people’s experience. Well, it’s hard to even know our own. Even to know our own motivation or to, to, uh, this feeling of opening, opening up the doorway to our own hearts and mind.

[00:10:36] Marc: You know, a zen teacher, Dogan is a great expression where he says, you know, when you’re out, when you’re out in the middle of the ocean and you look around, the ocean looks round. But he says, uh, the ocean is not round. And, and he, he, he does some, uh, some beautiful, uh, metaphors, fish to a fish. The ocean is a jewel, you know, or [00:11:00] to a dragon.

[00:11:01] Marc: The ocean is, you know, is a, is a home in which to course through and I mean, it’s a great, you know, it’s a great image, right? Being in the middle of the ocean, it looks, it looks round. Wherever, you know, we look at a, uh, the other day I was actually, uh, camping in the Trinity Alps with some friends, and I was sitting next to a beautiful, beautiful mountain lake and there was a gorgeous tree, tree trunk that I was sitting next to, and the base of this tree trunk, it had like five or six big parts of the trunk that were all.

[00:11:44] Marc: Beautifully gorgeously, uh, going down into the, some half of them seem to be going right into the earth and the other half seem to be going down into the lake. Uh, ’cause this tree was perched right on the edge. And [00:12:00] I, I couldn’t help wonder how, how, how does this happen? How does this tree, uh, know to do this?

[00:12:06] Marc: And, and when I got home, I, um, I plugged into, um. To chat GPTI said, what is happening with a tree that is outside of my experience? What am I not seeing? Right? I wanted, I, I wanted to see, you know, this is, this is like, well from, you know, it looks, it, it looks, this tree looks like nothing’s happening. It’s completely, it looks frozen.

[00:12:37] Marc: But it’s not frozen. And, and what chat GPT answered me is there are many, many wondrous things happening in this tree that you’re not aware of. You know, the tree is growing and dividing and there’s photosynthesis and, and it listed like five or six different categories of all of the life [00:13:00] and activity of this tree that is, uh, beyond.

[00:13:05] Marc: What we think we know. And I think this is the kind of seeing that Ruth Asawa is encouraging us to see beyond just the, the surface, right? To be curious about what’s happening. And of course, you know, the same is true in our own, um, bodies and minds. Maybe even, um, as complex or perhaps even more complex than all of what’s happening inside of a tree.

[00:13:37] Marc: Our own, uh, our own feelings, our own motivations, our bodies, bodies, uh, and minds.

[00:13:49] Marc: There’s a, uh, a beautiful, um. Quote, uh, from Zen Teacher Suzuki about, [00:14:00] um, what I think of as this, this same practice, this practice of, uh, generosity and, and he says, every existence in nature, every existence in the human world, every cultural work that we create is something which was given or is being given to us.

[00:14:23] Marc: So this is again, another way of, um, accepting reality. Seeing reality beneath the surface to see that, you know, uh, these, I think of these hands that we think of as my, I don’t own these hands. I don’t own this body and mine. It was gift, it was given, given to me. Your body and mind given to you. Everything, the air that we breathe, the sky, right?

[00:14:52] Marc: So this first, the first part of this quote, uh, the first part, this quote is quite [00:15:00] beautiful. But then, uh, this is, I, I feel like, um, Zen teaching, Zen practice has a way of, uh, setting us up and then pulling the rug out from under us. In a good way. In a good way. So after he says, right, everything was given to us, then he says, but.

[00:15:18] Marc: As everything is originally one, we are in actuality giving out everything right as everything is originally one. So this is a statement of the statement of oneness or emptiness or lack of separation. It’s a profound and beautiful, and he says it so simply, but. Right as everything is originally one, we are in actuality giving out everything.

[00:15:55] Marc: Right? Moment after moment we are creating something. Yeah. What a, [00:16:00] what a beautiful, beautiful statement, and I think a beautiful description of reality and how things actually are right, that everything was given to us. Everything is originally one, and therefore we are, uh, creating something. And then to cap it all off, he says, and this is the joy.

[00:16:28] Marc: This is the joy of our life. This is the joy of our life. So he, you know, and Zen has a way of, uh, this distinction. Somewhat artificial, but important distinction, you know, small mind and big mind. So he’s taking us, you know, this is, this is a, I think, a beautiful expression of Big Mind, right? Big Mind says, realizes that everything was given to us.

[00:16:56] Marc: Everything is originally one, and [00:17:00] we are moment after moment. Everything we do is an act of creation and creativity, and this is the joy of our life. Uh, but this, um, this is true when we’re, uh. Writing emails or washing the dishes or, uh, go, going to get our driver’s license renewed, which I happen to be doing today.

[00:17:26] Marc: It’s on my mind. So that’s my part of my aspiration, right? I can, I can go down to the DMV, you know, just waiting to be frustrated, waiting for the long lines. The, but, or I can go down with a much more sense of, uh. Acceptance and creativity. And just to be curious, you know, to be curious about what’s gonna happen, how, uh, how will I be met there?

[00:17:54] Marc: How can I, how can I bring my own, uh, big mind [00:18:00] as much as I, as much as I can. There’s a ano another, um, another beautiful statement by a Zen teacher, Dogan, you know, the. Founder, one of the founders, early, early founders of a Zen in Japan in the 13th century. And, um, this is how he begins, uh, an essay that he wrote called, um, instructions for Meditation.

[00:18:31] Marc: And he says, uh, the way is basically perfect and all pervading. How could it be contingent upon practice and realization the whole body is far beyond the world’s dust. Who could believe in a means to brush it clean? What is the use of going off here and there to practice? So anyhow, he’s, maybe it’s a long-winded way of saying [00:19:00] similar to, uh, you know what Shinu Suzuki just said, you know, since we’re all one, we’re all one.

[00:19:07] Marc: Everything is, uh, perfect just as it is. Why, why, why practice? Why is there a need for practice? Uh, but then he, uh, answers his own statement with, um, and these are, these are two, I think, uh, wonderful profound words, uh, from Zen. And yet he then says, and yet, and yet, if there is the slightest discrepancy. The way is as distant as heaven from Earth, if the least like or dislike arises, the mind is lost in confusion.

[00:19:47] Marc: Right. And yet, and yet I think there’s a lot of, uh, power in this and yet Right. Uh, to see and yet, uh, as a way in seeing differently [00:20:00] this, and yet I think gives us, uh, some insight into seeing. With greater confidence and greater humility, you know, this and yet could describe our lives, right? Things are great, and yet there’s so much suffering.

[00:20:18] Marc: Uh, things are bad, and yet, right? There’s so much goodness, so much beauty. Uh, there’s so much to do, and yet, you know, why not, uh, stop and enjoy and appreciate this moment, and, and I think in some way. All of this can be, uh, under the heading of live what you see and not, uh, not what you know, live, what you see and not what, you know, there’s some poems, um, that also come from the, uh, zen world, uh, on the same, same topic, you know, just another other ways of.

[00:20:59] Marc: Some [00:21:00] getting at or trying to, uh, hold onto and understand or, and live this, uh, live what you see, not what you know. And this poem says, when the wind stops, flowers fall. When the bird sings, uh, the mountain becomes more calm. Right. So, you know, uh, the flowers are, uh, not, they’re, they’re supposed to fall, not when the wind stops.

[00:21:31] Marc: And, uh, when the bird sings, why, why is the, why does the mountain become more calm? But this is, this is the reality of the way things are not how we know them or how we want them to be. So this is, I. I’ve been speaking about this recently as I think maybe the, a practice of, uh, perspective taking, uh, [00:22:00] practice of, uh, perspective taking, which I think is one of the vastly, uh, important, uh, missing elements today in our, in our, uh, political discourse, but really in all parts of our lives.

[00:22:16] Marc: Um, being. Curious, being curious about other people’s perspectives. Being curious about our own perspective, right? Our own perspective. The, the ocean is not round and like a frog looking up, right? So having a, a, a limited, uh, a limited perspective on things and aspiring, aspiring to, uh, to see. Clearly, uh, more widely.

[00:22:45] Marc: I think I’m gonna, uh, conclude here with a short poem, which is really a poem I think about this practice. And I, I do think of it as a practice of a perspective taking [00:23:00] practice of living what we see, not what we know. Uh, maybe the practice of the, uh, the courage to. Allow for the, and yet, and yet, you know, whatever, whatever conclusion that we might be, uh, drawing espec, especially any, any limited conclusion that we might have about our own, our own success or failure or other people’s motivations.

[00:23:30] Marc: And this poem is called Things To Think by, uh, Robert Bly. Think In Ways You’ve Never Thought Before. If the phone rings, think of it as carrying a message larger than anything you’ve ever heard. Vast than a hundred lines of Yates. Think that someone may bring a bear to your door, maybe wounded and deranged, or think that a moose [00:24:00] has risen out of the lake and he’s carrying on his antlers.

[00:24:03] Marc: A child of your own whom you’ve never seen. When someone knocks on the door, think that he’s about to give you something large, tell you you’re forgiven, or that it’s not necessary to work all the time, or that it’s been decided that if you lie down, no one will die. Yeah. So some things to think. Yeah. This, um, practice of, uh, live what you see.

[00:24:36] Marc: Uh, not, uh, what, you know, everything has been given to us and since everything is one, uh, we are, we are giving, we are creating. Thank you.

[00:24:59] Marc: I hope you’ve [00:25:00] appreciated today’s episode. To learn more about my work, you can visit Marc lesser.net. And if you’re interested in enrolling in a self-directed course called Seven Practices of a Mindful Leader, please visit Marc lesser courses.thinkific.com. This podcast is offered freely and relies on the financial support from listeners like you.

[00:25:26] Marc: You can donate at marclesser.net slash donate. Thank you very much.

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