Lois’s answer to “Concepts of gender identity, being non-binary, and the pronouns used for them seem to be changing r…” > Likes and Comments

As a genderqueer person who uses they/them for their pronouns I am constantly baffled by other people finding they/them confusing. We already use they/them in the singular for a person whose gender we don't know and have done for a great many years. Why's it suddenly confusing now when someone who's not male or female asks you to use they/them? (This is not an attack on Lois, this is a question of genuine bafflement. Why is this particular usage so confusing?)

I've been trained for many years out of saying "they" to refer to a singular person of unknown gender, but rather "he or she" or other gender neutral descriptor. E.g., "My cousin is coming to visit this weekend." "Oh yeah? Where does your cousin live?" You can blame various English language style guides for this, and also law school. It is thus hard for me to get "they" to stick in a natural way.

I'm still trying, though. Just saying, it is legitimately hard.

I am one who has low tolerance for "they" as a gender-neutral singular pronoun. The word "one" can be made to serve this purpose, although it sounds hoity-toity upperclass Brit to do so. French has "on", similar to "one", but German has "man", which is spelled differently to the masculine pronoun, or the word for a male adult. But other things in German are odd: a young lady or girl has a neuter noun, as do children, but animals may have feminine or masculine nouns, irrespective of the actual sex of an individual under discussion.

I don't know for certain, but I get the feeling that these gender-specific worries are peculiar to English, and that the speakers of other languages have the attitude that this is just how the language works, and don't think that much about it. But I could be wrong about that.

"They" is a plural pronoun; using it as a singular pronoun is inaccurate and wrong. Just as using "you" for both singular and plural is inaccurate and wrong; I wish we'd never stopped using "thou". These days, if we want to distinguish between singular and plural you, we have to add other words: "all of you", "you three", etc. We shouldn't have to do that.

Of course there's plenty of precedent in English usage for the singular use of "they". Unfortunately, there's plenty of precedent in English usage for all sorts of bad practices.

No, Jonathan, it's not wrong. It's been in use as a singular pronoun for literally centuries.

Besides, a language changes all the time unless everyone speaking it dies, so that's a terrible take.

Michele, I already know that 'they' has sometimes been used as a singular pronoun "for literally centuries". So what? People have probably been writing "I should of won the race" for centuries, but it's still bad use of language.

However, English is an ungoverned language: it exists in an state of anarchy, and anyone can do anything with it (which explains why it's such a mess!). You're free to use it as you prefer, and I'm free to use it as I prefer. Even if we may disapprove of each other…

Jonathan, I don't disapprove you. I simply resent anyone who tells me I'm not allowed to use the pronouns *I* choose to describe myself. I am genderqueer and my pronouns are they/them. If you disapprove of that, feel free not to speak to/of me again.

Michele, I have absolutely no power to prevent you from using English as you please. But pronouns are part of the English language: you can use them as you please, but you don't own them, and you can't oblige other people to use them in accordance with your preferences. Any more than I can.

... just chiming in on the "ungoverned language". *chuckles* I know it's futile to start on this subject here, let's just agree that language should always be ungoverned, for mature usage.

Brzk, I'm not sure that I disagree with you. In any case, it's hard to govern a language; although the French Academy tries to do so. In its completely ungoverned evolution, English has evolved into a rather poor state: the spelling, the pronunciation, the grammar, and the vocabulary are all in a mess. But I don't know what could have been done to avoid these problems.

As LMB has written, English is in need of a gender-neutral singular pronoun (other than 'it', which by tradition isn't applied to people). The obvious solution would be to invent one, but no-one has the authority to do so. Reusing a plural pronoun for the purpose seems to me a bad solution.

In principle, 'it' would be a much better solution than 'they'; the problem is that applying 'it' to people tends to sound subjectively inappropriate, and perhaps even insulting.

I am sure I disagree on the state of the English language, it seems in a pretty good shape to me.
On the matter of a gender neutral pronoun for the singular - having one (as is the case with the German "man", as Shane has mentioned above) does not solve the practicalities of its usage. Gender neutral people may not be a novelty in the world, but talk of gender neutral people is. I assure you German people face exactly the same problems when talking with their non-binary (I'm really not the expert here) friends as English speaking people do. One convenient resolution would be to use the polite form of the second person plural pronoun indiscriminately for everyone :). No, not practical, or convenient. Sticking to the biological gender is decidedly not an option either. Word inventions are seldomly a quick task and almost always do not work as intended. So yes, like Lois said, creating some sort of a cultural reference would work better, over time.
Being old (of heart) and of misanthropic disposition, I haven't got the opportunity yet to offend someone by not addressing them appropriately (see how nicely "them" works in this sentence). Since gender is really not that important to me in casual, everyday settings, I most often choose to replace pronouns with the person's given name. If a pronoun must be used, I guess a proportionatately equal usage of "he" and "she" for the same person wouldn't be great, but is justifiable. Gender neutrality means inclusivity of roles, I guess, not double exclusion. Anyhow, when the opportunity arises, I will just ask. If "they" is the preferred term, I will have no difficulty in using it casually. My biggest problem is how non-binary people will react to my very much binary and absolutely rude and unpleasant self, since I know how - they will ignore me almost immediately :) I hear there is talk amongst university professors on the subject of language and gender, so I hope the scientific consensus will trickle down to the masses at some point.

Michelle, you know I don't know you. A very superficial look at your GR page (3 seconds tops) somehow would tempt me to call you a she (I know, I know, it's just for the sake of the argument). I personally am a 37 year-old female, heterosexual, childless, living with my partner of 12 or 13 years. I don't know of a single person who doesn't perceive me as an old man, especially online. For the longest time now I don't feel any need to correct anyone who's addressing me as "he" or even "sir" in any sort of written communication. (When you are 1.60cm, plump and shy, no issues of this sort arise in face to face communication). It was confusing to me when I was addressed as "ma'am" once though. Perception is a strange thing. My best friend of childhood and school years is very dainty, feminine and a marked counterpoint to my present appearance (back in the day we were of the same height and weight). My present appearance of an ordinary middle-aged woman is very much not how I perceive myself :D. You are talking with a dangerous, higly-trained assassin, if you haven't noticed :). So no matter how I get addressed, it's slightly off the mark :) .If you can think of a way to solve this curious situation with a pronoun, let me know!

Brzk, I'm 67, male, and married (with a son now aged 20). I've long reckoned that middle age doesn't start until at least 40: by my reckoning, you're still young. However, mental age doesn't always seem to align with physical age.

for you, Jonathan, I'll revert back to my male persona. Imagine me as a 47 year old man. Feel free to forget the above side note. For Lois - she can have me any way she prefers, i'll fill letterally any narrative she suggests for me to the best of my ability.

Singular they can be highly confusing. I recently read a short story that talked about "they" having green hair and walking into a coffee shop and so forth. It took me most of the story to figure out that there was only one green-haired person. (As I keep telling people: we should replace English with Hungarian. No grammatical gender, no gendered pronouns.)

Thanks, Juli, I didn't know that about Hungarian. However, it's quite useful for pronouns to distinguish between male and female, when we want to do so. What we want is to have the option of not doing so.

"English is desperately in need of a gender-neutral singular pronoun." Yes we do! I wish our leaders would get on this instead of passing their usual legislation.

Hello J, I don't know whether this is fortunate or unfortunate, but the English language is not governed by legislation; and in any case it's used in multiple countries with separate governments. What's needed is for one or more influential people to propose a new pronoun, and for the masses to take it up and use it voluntarily. This is simpler, in a way, than government legislation, but for whatever reason it hasn't happened yet.

The pronouns are bad enough, but I hope in the fullness of time and acceptance the gender non-conformers will allow the use of "Gender Benders" as a reference. It's mildly humorous and so it tends to be disarming. ...And the term is so much easier than the ever-expanding alphabet soup presently required for PC references.

Picking up on the subject of the Japanese gender-neutral "sensei": if you want a word that serves as "sensei" does, why not use "sensei"? The English language is largely made up of words imported from other languages; it could tolerate another import, I suppose.

However, it occurs to me that English already has at least one word for a person having mastery of a skill: "expert".