Lois’s answer to “Since the debut of the ebook have you "punched up" the "kindle sample" beginnings of your books, be…” > Likes and Comments
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Anyone who has shopped, or still shops, in a physical bookshop is able to read the opening of a book before buying. I always have and still do.
I would also say that for an author to put an artificially fast start on the book, which covers the sample size, and then the book goes naturally a lot more slowly, is setting themselves up for a lot of critical reviews.
I feel that our Lois is not one who "writes to the market" but rather writes what she likes and is fortunate enough to have found a market and publishers that agree. I will continue to buy copies whenever new ones appear. I can't say that about all the authors I have read, or still read. And, I don't need to read an excerpt first. (Not that excerpts have ever been a good indicator of readability for me,)
Are you referring to the opening hook? Because that's what it sounds like to me, but not sure?
It does appear that many writers are now writing with their hook and various acts in mind in a set and fast-paced sequence. I've always seen Lois's work as very organically having those things, and therefore not needing to rush to get me interested. She writes characters of a complexity which causes a lot of the act tension to occasionally (for example), be them, at times, just showing up...which is pretty interesting.
Does it feel like the market is moving away from more organic to more regimented and reality-show-like writing? As a reader I definitely see this in the YA market, it makes me kinda depressed.
When I wrote some short stories, there would be scenes I was excited to write (which I also enjoyed reading) and other parts that had to be written so the fun scenes would make sense.
I imagine that real authors feel somewhat similar. I think an author would be doing themselves some harm by not having one of those scenes very early in their introduction to a new reader.
A new author who did this very well is Nicholas Eames in his book Kings of the Wyld. One of the best things about the book is the humor, and the very beginning was one of the 2 funniest parts of the whole book. No reader who could possibly like the book would give it up after the sample.
Anyone who likes the idea of a book that is basically the Hunger Games for boys should read Red Rising. Unfortunately the Hunger Games part doesn't start until chapter 15 so some people who could love it never realize the fact. (Does not seem to have affected sales much.) Personally I gave up on the uninspiring beginning to Red Rising before years later asking where the "good stuff" started. Literally 2 pages of chapter 15 hooked me.
As a general rule, I have tended to most like books and stories that start "slow", building a world/situation/character and then providing a story. I have tended to resent those that dump one into a bunch of action, with people I don't know often doing violence or have violence done to them. From some authors, I have been willing to over look this, usually when they have used the trick in later books after I have become hooked. I do sometimes use the "look inside" sample to check out a book before buying, but I am usually looking for writing style not "amount of action". Now, I admit that I like humor, and if a book is funny I would like to see some of the fun early on. (I am thinking of Heyer here, for example, the opening of Venetia where we have V. talking at the breakfast table with her brother who isn't paying any attention. I laugh every time.
If you go through and read just the first pages of Lois' books, the beginnings all seem pretty carefully constructed to me. One of the things that I often interpret a "slow start" to be is an author giving you back information that was necessary for them to mentally develop the story but that is not actually the natural starting place of the *story* that they are telling. As if they don't want to waste the pre-work that they did. I think that Lois generally avoids this.
I prefer it when all parts of a story are important parts.
Any mention of The Bastard is good enough to hook me and drag me down the road. ^^
Rachel, for me the natural start of a story is often very slow, especially in fantasy. The young boy in an average village who is yet to start his great adventure doesn't give the author great scope to display the best that they are capable of.
I'm a beginning writer and I was told the draft of the first chapter of my novel was too slow - it needed a "hook" to grab the readers attention. Also that the chapter was too long. I was told that chapters should be short, so there were plenty of places to stop at the end of a chapter.
As another writer who began before ebook popularity, and a very old reader, I can deny any move to change books beginnings. On print or screen the need has always been the same - grab the reader. Pride and Prejudice begins with two pithy paragraphs and jumps right into the story. The first Miles book immediately establishes an empathy with Miles and curiosity about what will happen with him.
Laer Carroll I agree that "It is a truth universally acknowledged, that a single man in possession of a good fortune, must be in want of a wife." will immediately grab hold of all appropriate readers. Authors whose strengths are wit or prose certainly have an advantage when hooking readers from the very beginning.
I agree Warrior's Apprentice immediately attracts us with the delightful mind of Miles. Shards doesn't do so because the heart of the story is between Cordelia and Aral and requires a setup.
I understood the question to refer to the short description given of the story, not necessarily the opening pages/chapter. I don't have a Kindle, but the e-books on my Nook all give a short description as well as reviews, if anyone has made any. But it is a description of the story as a whole (admittedly sometimes rather brief), not just the opening chapter.
Susan sorry for the confusion. I was referring to the beginning of the story.
I started with The Vor Game. I was standing in Barnes & Noble, in the SF&F section, and I was just going to read the first page...and then I was hooked for life! The sample is extremely important.
On Amazon the sample is usually the first 10%, on the Baen site the first 25%.
Editors of Anthologies have been known to take this into account when choosing story order, both to include a good item and place a brand new one from a top author at the end.
I think the first few pages of a story have always been important. If the first few pages leave me thinking that I'm unsure whether to invest any more time in something that isn't grabbing me, then I'm probably not going to read the book. However, it's not a quirky story 'hook' that's going to make that decision for me - it's something less easy to define - something that makes me feel I want to hear more about this character and this story, or hear more of this author's 'voice'. Look at the first line of Pride and Prejudice - the acerbic, ironic tone of what on the surface looks like a very conventional statement was enough to make me snigger and want to hear more. But then there's Tolkien - LOTR didn't really get up a head of steam until after the Council of Elrond and he darn nearly lost me before that.
I give a book 100 pages. If I don't like it or any characters by then, I bail. Lies of Locke Lamora was one such that I was going to quit by page 95, and by page 100 was hooked.
That said, Shards, and in particular Cordelia, had me hooked almost from the beginning.
Also - for Kindles do they sometimes use a different prt if the book as a preview? Not the first chapter or 10% or whatever?
The notion of tailoring the opening of a book to ebook marketing is eye-opening to me.
My usual first exposure to a book or new author is at any of several branches of my public library or from the ”Look inside" feature at Amazon. I open to the first page, and if it captures me, I then turn to a couple of interior paragraphs for if the writing retains its attractive flavor.
Perusing the library shelves, my introduction to Bujold was Miles In Love, whose title I thought referred to an indeterminate distance. Upon opening the book, I was surprised by the copyright dates and overjoyed by ready certainty that I wanted to read all three stories of whoever is this author - not a ‘female author,’ but a master author, who happens to be a girl.
I cannot imagine that any writer could develop skill and magnetism by deeming it a priority how an ebook reader would view the first page of a work. I pray if this is a trend, something will nip it in the bud— or kill the nascent flower before it becomes explosive.
> I cannot imagine that any writer could develop skill and magnetism by deeming it a priority how an ebook reader would view the first page of a work.
Authors are often advised to have a 'hook' on the first page and the classic route of starting 'in medio res' is one way to this. Since it is hard to start at a random point in an ebook this advice gains a point.
In the same way, many first drafts start with a history of the last thousand years rather than inserting information as required as Lois does.
I don't know that Shard's opening wasn't just as quick as Warrior's Apprentice. Cordelia is captured by Aral within the first few pages, no? Unfortunately my books are packed away at the moment.
To Michawl Dolbear:
Read you. Thanks for the input. I guess I am out of my purview on this.
This has reminded me of Anne McCaffrey's Pern books, which all opened with an unabashed cut-and-paste chunk of background. After the first few, it was easy enough to skip over it, since it rarely (if ever) varied, though.
I think the change described in the question started a long time before e-books. Long ago, novels could proceed slowly on their way, but during the 20th century the pace has gradually increased—not necessarily from a conscious decision by the author. In writing a novel, authors are surely influenced by other novels they’ve read, and so our idea of what a novel is evolves gradually as time goes by.
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Anyone who has shopped, or still shops, in a physical bookshop is able to read the opening of a book before buying. I always have and still do.I would also say that for an author to put an artificially fast start on the book, which covers the sample size, and then the book goes naturally a lot more slowly, is setting themselves up for a lot of critical reviews.
I feel that our Lois is not one who "writes to the market" but rather writes what she likes and is fortunate enough to have found a market and publishers that agree. I will continue to buy copies whenever new ones appear. I can't say that about all the authors I have read, or still read. And, I don't need to read an excerpt first. (Not that excerpts have ever been a good indicator of readability for me,)
Are you referring to the opening hook? Because that's what it sounds like to me, but not sure?It does appear that many writers are now writing with their hook and various acts in mind in a set and fast-paced sequence. I've always seen Lois's work as very organically having those things, and therefore not needing to rush to get me interested. She writes characters of a complexity which causes a lot of the act tension to occasionally (for example), be them, at times, just showing up...which is pretty interesting.
Does it feel like the market is moving away from more organic to more regimented and reality-show-like writing? As a reader I definitely see this in the YA market, it makes me kinda depressed.
When I wrote some short stories, there would be scenes I was excited to write (which I also enjoyed reading) and other parts that had to be written so the fun scenes would make sense.I imagine that real authors feel somewhat similar. I think an author would be doing themselves some harm by not having one of those scenes very early in their introduction to a new reader.
A new author who did this very well is Nicholas Eames in his book Kings of the Wyld. One of the best things about the book is the humor, and the very beginning was one of the 2 funniest parts of the whole book. No reader who could possibly like the book would give it up after the sample.
Anyone who likes the idea of a book that is basically the Hunger Games for boys should read Red Rising. Unfortunately the Hunger Games part doesn't start until chapter 15 so some people who could love it never realize the fact. (Does not seem to have affected sales much.) Personally I gave up on the uninspiring beginning to Red Rising before years later asking where the "good stuff" started. Literally 2 pages of chapter 15 hooked me.
As a general rule, I have tended to most like books and stories that start "slow", building a world/situation/character and then providing a story. I have tended to resent those that dump one into a bunch of action, with people I don't know often doing violence or have violence done to them. From some authors, I have been willing to over look this, usually when they have used the trick in later books after I have become hooked. I do sometimes use the "look inside" sample to check out a book before buying, but I am usually looking for writing style not "amount of action". Now, I admit that I like humor, and if a book is funny I would like to see some of the fun early on. (I am thinking of Heyer here, for example, the opening of Venetia where we have V. talking at the breakfast table with her brother who isn't paying any attention. I laugh every time.
If you go through and read just the first pages of Lois' books, the beginnings all seem pretty carefully constructed to me. One of the things that I often interpret a "slow start" to be is an author giving you back information that was necessary for them to mentally develop the story but that is not actually the natural starting place of the *story* that they are telling. As if they don't want to waste the pre-work that they did. I think that Lois generally avoids this. I prefer it when all parts of a story are important parts.
Any mention of The Bastard is good enough to hook me and drag me down the road. ^^
Rachel, for me the natural start of a story is often very slow, especially in fantasy. The young boy in an average village who is yet to start his great adventure doesn't give the author great scope to display the best that they are capable of.
I'm a beginning writer and I was told the draft of the first chapter of my novel was too slow - it needed a "hook" to grab the readers attention. Also that the chapter was too long. I was told that chapters should be short, so there were plenty of places to stop at the end of a chapter.
As another writer who began before ebook popularity, and a very old reader, I can deny any move to change books beginnings. On print or screen the need has always been the same - grab the reader. Pride and Prejudice begins with two pithy paragraphs and jumps right into the story. The first Miles book immediately establishes an empathy with Miles and curiosity about what will happen with him.
Laer Carroll I agree that "It is a truth universally acknowledged, that a single man in possession of a good fortune, must be in want of a wife." will immediately grab hold of all appropriate readers. Authors whose strengths are wit or prose certainly have an advantage when hooking readers from the very beginning.I agree Warrior's Apprentice immediately attracts us with the delightful mind of Miles. Shards doesn't do so because the heart of the story is between Cordelia and Aral and requires a setup.
I understood the question to refer to the short description given of the story, not necessarily the opening pages/chapter. I don't have a Kindle, but the e-books on my Nook all give a short description as well as reviews, if anyone has made any. But it is a description of the story as a whole (admittedly sometimes rather brief), not just the opening chapter.
Susan sorry for the confusion. I was referring to the beginning of the story.
I started with The Vor Game. I was standing in Barnes & Noble, in the SF&F section, and I was just going to read the first page...and then I was hooked for life! The sample is extremely important.
On Amazon the sample is usually the first 10%, on the Baen site the first 25%.Editors of Anthologies have been known to take this into account when choosing story order, both to include a good item and place a brand new one from a top author at the end.
I think the first few pages of a story have always been important. If the first few pages leave me thinking that I'm unsure whether to invest any more time in something that isn't grabbing me, then I'm probably not going to read the book. However, it's not a quirky story 'hook' that's going to make that decision for me - it's something less easy to define - something that makes me feel I want to hear more about this character and this story, or hear more of this author's 'voice'. Look at the first line of Pride and Prejudice - the acerbic, ironic tone of what on the surface looks like a very conventional statement was enough to make me snigger and want to hear more. But then there's Tolkien - LOTR didn't really get up a head of steam until after the Council of Elrond and he darn nearly lost me before that.
I give a book 100 pages. If I don't like it or any characters by then, I bail. Lies of Locke Lamora was one such that I was going to quit by page 95, and by page 100 was hooked. That said, Shards, and in particular Cordelia, had me hooked almost from the beginning.
Also - for Kindles do they sometimes use a different prt if the book as a preview? Not the first chapter or 10% or whatever?
The notion of tailoring the opening of a book to ebook marketing is eye-opening to me.My usual first exposure to a book or new author is at any of several branches of my public library or from the ”Look inside" feature at Amazon. I open to the first page, and if it captures me, I then turn to a couple of interior paragraphs for if the writing retains its attractive flavor.
Perusing the library shelves, my introduction to Bujold was Miles In Love, whose title I thought referred to an indeterminate distance. Upon opening the book, I was surprised by the copyright dates and overjoyed by ready certainty that I wanted to read all three stories of whoever is this author - not a ‘female author,’ but a master author, who happens to be a girl.
I cannot imagine that any writer could develop skill and magnetism by deeming it a priority how an ebook reader would view the first page of a work. I pray if this is a trend, something will nip it in the bud— or kill the nascent flower before it becomes explosive.
> I cannot imagine that any writer could develop skill and magnetism by deeming it a priority how an ebook reader would view the first page of a work.Authors are often advised to have a 'hook' on the first page and the classic route of starting 'in medio res' is one way to this. Since it is hard to start at a random point in an ebook this advice gains a point.
In the same way, many first drafts start with a history of the last thousand years rather than inserting information as required as Lois does.
I don't know that Shard's opening wasn't just as quick as Warrior's Apprentice. Cordelia is captured by Aral within the first few pages, no? Unfortunately my books are packed away at the moment.
To Michawl Dolbear:Read you. Thanks for the input. I guess I am out of my purview on this.
This has reminded me of Anne McCaffrey's Pern books, which all opened with an unabashed cut-and-paste chunk of background. After the first few, it was easy enough to skip over it, since it rarely (if ever) varied, though.
I think the change described in the question started a long time before e-books. Long ago, novels could proceed slowly on their way, but during the 20th century the pace has gradually increased—not necessarily from a conscious decision by the author. In writing a novel, authors are surely influenced by other novels they’ve read, and so our idea of what a novel is evolves gradually as time goes by.
Personally, if a sample doesn't grab me, and I remain undecided as to whether I like or dislike it, then I don't buy the book.
That leads me to thinking that authors who are hiding their light under a bushell are costing themselves sales. So if I were a writer, I would try very hard not to start of slowly, even if that was how the story naturally goes.