Cleo’s Comments (group member since Apr 12, 2016)

Cleo’s comments from the Reading Classics, Chronologically Through the Ages group.

Definitely the verse (poetry) and Richmond Lattimore is the best translation if you want to get closest to the original. Have fun! I’ve read it three times and it’s in my top 5 favourites!

Louna wrote: "However, I think it's the best way to understand the world we currently live in and to develop a real and good character. Hence the need to embark on this journey along with you all.
..."

What a great statement Louna! I so agree! Welcome! I'll do my best to respond to any comments you have. I haven't read all the novel section but I've read all the biographies but one and I'm into the histories.

All the best in your classics journey!

Cleo wrote: "Satan's portrayal as the hero and main character of the story really is interesting. I, too, found myself rooting for him and rolling my eyes at those working against him. ..."

That's interesting. I didn't read it that way but you have good company with William Blake who called Milton "part of the devil's party." (However, Blake didn't seem entirely stable himself, in my opinion).

In any case, C.S. Lewis has a wonderful book of his lectures on Paradis Lost called A Preface to Paradise Lost Milton is such a consummate poet that the reader often misses what he is actually getting at and Lewis helps so much in this area. For example, for those who think Milton was making Satan a hero, Lewis said that if the reader chooses to admire Satan, he must only realize what he is admiring:

“No one had in fact done anything to Satan; he was not hungry, nor over-tasked, nor removed from this place, nor shunned, nor hated —- he only thought himself impaired. In the midst of a world of light and love, of song and feast and dance, he could find nothing to think of more interesting than his own prestige …..


……… Satan lies about every subject he mentions in Paradise Lost. But I do not know whether we can distinguish his conscious lies from the blindness which he had almost willingly imposed on himself ……


……. What we see in Satan is the horrible co-existence of a subtle and incessant intellectual activity with an incapacity to understand anything. This doom he has brought upon himself; in order to avoid seeing one thing he has, almost voluntarily, incapacitated himself from seeing at all. And thus, throughout the poem, all his torments come, in a sense, at this own bidding …..


……. the design of ruining two creatures (Adam & Eve) who had never done him any harm, no longer in the serious hope of victory, but only to annoy the Enemy (God) whom he cannot directly attack ……


……. From hero to general, from general to politician, from politician to secret service agent, and thence to a thing that peers in at bedroom or bathroom windows, and thence to a toad, and finally to a snake ——- such is the progress of Satan. This progress, misunderstood, has given rise to the belief that Milton began by making Satan more glorious than he intended and then, too late, attempted to rectify the error. But such an unerring picture of the ‘sense of injured merit’ in its actual operations upon character cannot have come about by blundering and accident. We need not doubt that it was the poet’s intention to be fair to evil, to give it a run for its money —- to show it first at the height, with all its rants and melodrama and ‘Godlike imitated state’ about it, and then to trace what actually becomes of such self-intoxication when it encounters reality.”

That was so powerful and made me realize how many subtleties can be missed. Indeed, these great books need to be read over and over again!

Kendra wrote: "Christianity has been used to control and oppress throughout history. ..."

I always see Christianity as being people. Every culture or society or religion has done terrible things and also done absolutely wonderful things. And the fact that we're part of a Judeo-Christian heritage allows people to be critical of parts of it ....... in other religions or societies there is not that freedom. We are all fallen. It's just too bad that the news only shows the negative aspects of it which tends to magnify them out of a sense of reality.

Oh, I wish I'd seen you were re-reading this before now; I would have loved a re-read!

Kendra wrote: "I'm also newly disturbed by Adam and Eve being told to avoid knowledge and understanding....."

I think it was a universal understanding they were supposed to avoid, but knowledge that was only for God and therefore, only understandable by God. When God has appeared, he is so powerful people are not able to look at him and that is only appearance. I can't imagine what all his knowledge would do for the human brain. So while it offends our modern sensibilities because we are used to getting and having access to everything we want, I believe this command was given for their protection out of God's love for them.

I just LOVE Montaigne. 💙 He’s such a unusual character and I respect the strength of his opinions and his thoughts. I didn’t always agree with him but I always enjoyed what I read.

Oh my goodness, Jenni, I struggled with the chapters on time the first time too! The second time was easier but I could probably read them one hundred times and still not completely understand them.

Such fun that you’re at this point in the biographies. I loved most of them. I can’t remember one that I didn’t like but I especially preferred the older ones. Have fun reading! 📚

I've read the essays recommended by The Well-Educated Mind: A Guide to the Classical Education You Never Had and so enjoyed them. While I don't agree with everything Montaigne says, his deep thought and honest delivery made me a fan. I would like to read more by him.

Hi Jenni! Nice to meet you! I'm a former homeschooler and I love discussing books. I've been through almost all of the TWEM biographies (except The Gulag Archipelago) but kind of stalled on The Histories, not because I didn't like them but because they were so interesting that I ended up doing posts on my blog for each chapter. I need to get back to reading The Republic and continue from there. In any case, if you'd like discussion, just post and I'll answer!

I would vote for written order in this case too!

Taylor wrote: "I think I’m going to stick it out with “Anna Karenina” first, as I think I tried to read it too fast in the beginning and burnt out because of it. Then I think I’ll read one of Thomas Hardy’s novel..."

It might help to be a little picky with your Russian translators. I read the Pevear-Volokhonsky translation of Anna Karenina and was bored to tears. Then I read the Aylmer-Maude translation (they knew Tolstoy) and it was like reading a new book; it was wonderful! Constance Garnett is good as well. Best of luck!

Nice to meet you, Taylor! Welcome to the group! What book from the list are you considering reading next?

Kendra wrote: "Oh no, don't get me wrong - as much as this one aspect bothered me, I really enjoyed this book as a whole. It was probably one of my favorites we've read so far. Thanks for sharing your post!"

Oh, yay! That's great to hear!!

Well, there were a few stories I quite disliked such as The Miller's Tale but there were many from which I drew a deeper meaning:

The Knight's Tale: "First, there is the obvious emphasis on fate or destiny or a higher power ..... there is a “blueprint” already in place for everyone’s destiny that man, in his puniness, cannot yet see. A life lived well is to submit to the inevitable, yet take opportunities when they come to you. ....... There is also an emphasis on nature and it’s interaction with man .... (then) it is love which achieves the ultimate victory ..... I’m certain there are many other themes included, such as pageantry, hierarchical Medevial structure, and not so much the capriciousness of the gods, the uncertainty of destiny, etc."

The Man of Law's Tale: "the storytellers are instructing us in the right responses in times of trouble and strife, while also illustrating the benefits that can come from our right actions during these times. Conversely, they also can illustrate the outcomes of wrong actions and their consequences."

The Clerk's Tale: "He likens Griselda’s story to Job so it appears as though he’s advocating for strength and perseverance in adversity. While Griselda’s mild responses to her husband’s torture are rather appalling, what would have happened if she had given a different response and stood up to his tyrannical machinations? At the least, her husband most likely would have disposed of her and at the worst, perhaps her children, as well. By her measured responses, but most of all, by keeping her initial promise to him, she eventually receives a life of happiness and contentment and love."

The Merchant's Tale: "January’s physical blindness certainly echoes his intellectual blindness towards the matrimonial state ..... yet even Chaucer mentions that Argus who had one hundred eyes was deceived, again implying that January’s blindness is not merely a physical condition, but a condition of the heart."

There are sooo many more examples. I took these from my review as I posted on each tale as I read. I so enjoyed this read so I'm disappointed that you had such an adverse reaction to it, Kendra. But each to his own and I hope you have more luck with your next read!! 👍

Here's a link to my review if anyone is interested and the links to the individual tales are contained within: https://classicalcarousel.com/the-can...

From what I remember, there were certainly tales that were tasteless in how they were presented. But what I did appreciate was that even though many of the tales were embellished, they still echoed of reality and I can respect that; life can be unpleasant and it's no help to whitewash reality. Chaucer seemed to be able to convey life lessons with humour and with ribaldry that can certainly be offputting but I came to appreciate his method.

Why do you think he was "unhealthily" obsessed?

I have this play buried around her somewhere. I'll have to dig it up!

Yes, I've read Margery Kempe and am very curious as to what you think about it after you read it. She was a very "unique" woman.

Ah, yes! I remember that one. I wrote this after I read The Miller's Tale:

"This tale seems a response and a parody to The Knight’s Tale, in that The Knight’s Tale was filled with chivalry, courtly love, honour and destiny, whereas in this tale, there is adultery, lust, and deception, depicted with obscenity and humour. As in The Knight’s Tale, The Miller’s Tale also presents another love triangle, but in this case, it is one that is base and immoral, instead of the Knight’s illustration of courtly love.

In addition to turning the virtues of The Knight’s Tale on its head, the Miller seems to be offering a commentary on the church, and not a very pleasant commentary at that. The Carpenter has the same trade as Jesus and Joseph, and is presented as a rather ingenuous, bumbling fool. Absolon’s position of parish clerk appears to offer more negative criticism. His dialogue seems to sometimes grow from Songs of Songs, as he uses some of the most beautiful biblical love poetry to seduce another man’s wife. I’m unsure as to whether his name is a lampoon of the biblical character Absalom, King David’s son who was known for his ingratiating manners and pretentious love of pomp and show. Everything meaningful about the biblical Absalom is portrayed on the outside, but there is no depth to his strength of character. The Miller’s Absolon obviously has a faith that holds little meaning for him and has no effect on his actions."

Who else is planning on reading this book?