The History Book Club discussion

The Passage of Power (The Years of Lyndon Johnson, #4)
This topic is about The Passage of Power
88 views
PRESIDENTIAL SERIES > 6. Presidential Series: PASSAGE OF POWER ~~ Oct. 22nd ~ Oct. 28th ~~ Chapters NINE and TEN (251 - 306); No Spoilers Please

Comments Showing 1-41 of 41 (41 new)    post a comment »
dateUp arrow    newest »

Bryan Craig This is the Week Six thread for the next Presidential Series selection (The Years of Lyndon Johnson: The Passage of Power) by Robert A. Caro.

The week's reading assignment is:

Week SIX - October 22nd - October 28th -> Chapters NINE & TEN p. 251 - 306
NINE - Gestures and Tactics and TEN - The Protege


We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.

We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Borders and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library.

There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to begin reading this selection and/or to post.

Bryan Craig is the assisting moderator who will be leading this discussion. We hope you enjoy this discussion of another great book in the Presidential Series.

REMEMBER NO SPOILERS ON THE WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREADS

Notes

It is always a tremendous help when you quote specifically from the book itself and reference the chapter and page numbers when responding. The text itself helps folks know what you are referencing and makes things clear.

Citations

If an author or book is mentioned other than the book and author being discussed, citations must be included according to our guidelines. Also, when citing other sources, please provide credit where credit is due and/or the link. There is no need to re-cite the author and the book we are discussing however.

If you need help - here is a thread called the Mechanics of the Board which will show you how:
http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/2...

Glossary

Remember there is a glossary thread where ancillary information is placed by the moderator. This is also a thread where additional information can be placed by the group members regarding the subject matter being discussed.
http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...

Bibliography

There is a Bibliography where books cited in the text are posted with proper citations and reviews. We also post the books that the author used in her research or in her notes. Please also feel free to add to the Bibliography thread any related books, etc with proper citations. No self promotion, please.
http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...

Table of Contents and Syllabus

Here is the link:
http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...

Welcome,

~Bryan

The Passage of Power (The Years of Lyndon Johnson #4 ) by Robert A. Caro Robert A. Caro Robert A. Caro


message 2: by Bryan (last edited Oct 22, 2012 06:37AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bryan Craig Chapter Overviews and Summaries

Chapter Nine: Gestures and Tactics


LBJ begins to reassert himself on the civil right issue. He is invited to a banquet at St. Augustine and he wanted African Americans at the dinner, mixed with whites at tables, and some sitting at the platform. The vice president also made a speech at the 100th anniversary of Lincoln's address at Gettysburg.

In Birmingham, civil rights protestors began a campaign and were met with hard response by city police. At first, JFK did not consult with LBJ on how to respond and what to do with a civil rights bill.

In June, Sorenson and LBJ talked. LBJ said it would be a big mistake to introduce a civil rights bill at this time because there were too many administration bills stuck in Congress. He argued to get the Senate involved, as well. Sorenson was impressed and LBJ was subsequently invited into the White House for more talks. It did not help the relationship between RFK and LBJ, though.

LBJ began to think he will be dumped by the president in 1964. He was seen as being less important in Texas politics, while Gov. Connally's stock went up. In fact, Connally and JFK bypass LBJ to meet about doing a fundraising trip to Texas. They agree to November 1963.

Chapter Ten: The Protege

In September, LBJ locked himself in his hotel room in Copenhagen. He was trying to control a growing political "fire" back in D.C. Bobby Baker, the Senate Majority secretary, was being charged for taking money from a vending company to come into a plant. Senator John Williams of the Rules Committee talked to Don Reynolds about this incident and found out that Baker gave him money in exchange for opening some doors for his own insurance company. Reynolds bought LBJ a new stereo and bought airtime from one of LBJ's radio stations. Reporters began to investigate LBJ's fortune, as well. The Washington Post had a headline about the story and called Baker, LBJ's protege. Baker also was a part of the "Quorum Clube" at a nearby D.C. hotel that involved prostitution.

One of the prostitutes allegedly had sex with JFK. RFK persuaded J. Edgar Hoover to pressure the Senate Rules Committee not to investigate because its mission was not to investigate sex matters. Life magazine ran a story on November 18 about the club and Baker. Life reporters also decided to dig deeper on LBJ's fortune.

LBJ was not part of a November campaign meeting. JFK's secretary, Evelyn Lincoln, claimed there was a conversation to drop LBJ from the ticket. He goes with JFK to Texas, though. He makes detailed plans for his ranch to host JFK and Jackie. LBJ was being snubbed by Senator Yarborough (D-TX) when the Texas senator would not sit with LBJ in his car. Yarborough was being seen next to JFK and Gov. Connally.


Bryan Craig Civil rights is a bit of a "game changer" for LBJ. What does this tell us about LBJ that he is willing to change his modus operandi, no longer so quiet and meek?


Bryan Craig LBJ's Gettysburg Speech:

On this hallowed ground, heroic deeds were performed and eloquent words were spoken a century ago.

We, the living, have not forgotten--and the world will never forget--the deeds or the words of Gettysburg. We honor them now as we join on this Memorial Day of 1963 in a prayer for permanent peace of the world and fulfillment of our hopes for universal freedom and justice.

We are called to honor our own words of reverent prayer with resolution in the deeds we must perform to preserve peace and the hope of freedom.

We keep a vigil of peace around the world.

Until the world knows no aggressors, until the arms of tyranny have been laid down, until freedom has risen up in every land, we shall maintain our vigil to make sure our sons who died on foreign fields shall not have died in vain.

As we maintain the vigil of peace, we must remember that justice is a vigil, too--a vigil we must keep in our own streets and schools and among the lives of all our people--so that those who died here on their native soil shall not have died in vain.

One hundred years ago, the slave was freed.

One hundred years later, the Negro remains in bondage to the color of his skin.

The Negro today asks justice.

We do not answer him--we do not answer those who lie beneath this soil--when we reply to the Negro by asking, "Patience."

It is empty to plead that the solution to the dilemmas of the present rests on the hands of the clock. The solution is in our hands. Unless we are willing to yield up our destiny of greatness among the civilizations of history, Americans--white and Negro together--must be about the business of resolving the challenge which confronts us now.

Our nation found its soul in honor on these fields of Gettysburg one hundred years ago. We must not lose that soul in dishonor now on the fields of hate.

To ask for patience from the Negro is to ask him to give more of what he has already given enough. But to fail to ask of him--and of all Americans--perseverance within the processes of a free and responsible society would be to fail to ask what the national interest requires of all its citizens.

The law cannot save those who deny it but neither can the law serve any who do not use it. The history of injustice and inequality is a history of disuse of the law. Law has not failed--and is not failing. We as a nation have failed ourselves by not trusting the law and by not using the law to gain sooner the ends of justice which law alone serves.

If the white over-estimates what he has done for the Negro without the law, the Negro may under-estimate what he is doing and can do for himself with the law.

If it is empty to ask Negro or white for patience, it is not empty--it is merely honest--to ask perseverance. Men may build barricades--and others may hurl themselves against those barricades--but what would happen at the barricades would yield no answers. The answers will only be wrought by our perseverance together. It is deceit to promise more as it would be cowardice to demand less.

In this hour, it is not our respective races which are at stake--it is our nation. Let those who care for their country come forward, North and South, white and Negro, to lead the way through this moment of challenge and decision.

The Negro says, "Now." Others say, "Never." The voice of responsible Americans--the voice of those who died here and the great man who spoke here--their voices say, "Together." There is no other way.

Until justice is blind to color, until education is unaware of race, until opportunity is unconcerned with the color of men's skins, emancipation will be a proclamation but not a fact. To the extent that the proclamation of emancipation is not fulfilled in fact, to that extent we shall have fallen short of assuring freedom to the free.
(Source: http://www.lbjlib.utexas.edu/johnson/...)


Ann D Finally - in Chapter 9 we get to see a good side of LBJ!

That is a wonderful speech, Bryan, and Caro said that most of it was written without the help of LBJ's speech writer. LBJ advised Kennedy that he needed to make Civil Rights a moral issue, which he certainly did himself in this Gettysburg speech.

I believe that Johnson's support of Civil Rights was sincere, as was proven by the fact that he followed through and got the legislation passed after the assassination.

I was appalled at RFK's very public humiliation of Johnson and the men who were working with him on the Civil Rights commission. It was completely unjustified. Did all that power JFK give him go to his head?

Why do we hear so much more about Robert Kennedy in this chapter than we hear about his brother John?


Bryan Craig It is a great speech, Ann. It seems civil rights was a spark for him to rise to his potential. Good to see.

I think Caro is try to trace the relationship between RFK and LBJ and that is why he focuses on the two. I do see your point about not fleshing out the JFK-LBJ relationship.


message 7: by G (new) - rated it 5 stars

G Hodges (glh1) | 901 comments Bryan wrote: "Civil rights is a bit of a "game changer" for LBJ. What does this tell us about LBJ that he is willing to change his modus operandi, no longer so quiet and meek?"

LBJ is letting his passion overrule his insecurities, thankfully. His non political instincts are so pure and it is good to see.

What rankles is that RFK and JFK felt the same way, really, and it is surprising that they are not grateful for the common ground. Well, maybe not so surprising considering how totally tribal they were.


Bryan Craig True, G. I don't think they saw that both of them are on the same page on civil rights. Maybe RFK still had political realities to face, but by 1963, the administration was changing.


Mark Mortensen I find it amazing yet not surprising how many politicians’ become very wealthy through government service. A classic example is LBJ, who on an annual salary of $35,000 was able to become a multi-millionaire. (pg. 286)


Bryan Craig Radio And TV stations with the right connections on the FCC helped build his fortune. The stations were under Lady Bird's name, I believe.


Bryan Craig The Baker story does seem pretty damaging. It seems pretty common today, which is a little scary, but harsh in those days.


Ann D "Life turns on a dime?" - well-put, Cheryl.


Bryan Craig Indeed, Cheryl, the world people knew in 1963 changed forever.


message 14: by Bryan (last edited Oct 23, 2012 06:21AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bryan Craig JFK's Civil Rights Address (June 1963):


This afternoon, following a series of threats and defiant statements, the presence of Alabama National Guardsmen was required on the University of Alabama to carry out the final and unequivocal order of the United States District Court of the Northern District of Alabama. That order called for the admission of two clearly qualified young Alabama residents who happened to have been born Negro.

That they were admitted peacefully on the campus is due in good measure to the conduct of the students of the University of Alabama, who met their responsibilities in a constructive way.

I hope that every American, regardless of where he lives, will stop and examine his conscience about this and other related incidents. This Nation was founded by men of many nations and backgrounds. It was founded on the principle that all men are created equal, and that the rights of every man are diminished when the rights of one man are threatened.

Today we are committed to a worldwide struggle to promote and protect the rights of all who wish to be free. And when Americans are sent to Viet-Nam or West Berlin, we do not ask for whites only. It ought to be possible, therefore, for American students of any color to attend any public institution they select without having to be backed up by troops.

It ought to be possible for American consumers of any color to receive equal service in places of public accommodation, such as hotels and restaurants and theaters and retail stores, without being forced to resort to demonstrations in the street, and it ought to be possible for American citizens of any color to register and to vote in a free election without interference or fear of reprisal.

It ought to be possible, in short, for every American to enjoy the privileges of being American without regard to his race or his color. In short, every American ought to have the right to be treated as he would wish to be treated, as one would wish his children to be treated. But this is not the case.

The Negro baby born in America today, regardless of the section of the Nation in which he is born, has about one-half as much chance of completing a high school as a white baby born in the same place on the same day, one-third as much chance of completing college, one-third as much chance of becoming a professional man, twice as much chance of becoming unemployed, about one-seventh as much chance of earning $10,000 a year, a life expectancy which is 7 years shorter, and the prospects of earning only half as much.

This is not a sectional issue. Difficulties over segregation and discrimination exist in every city, in every State of the Union, producing in many cities a rising tide of discontent that threatens the public safety. Nor is this a partisan issue. In a time of domestic crisis men of good will and generosity should be able to unite regardless of party or politics. This is not even a legal or legislative issue alone. It is better to settle these matters in the courts than on the streets, and new laws are needed at every level, but law alone cannot make men see right.

We are confronted primarily with a moral issue. It is as old as the scriptures and is as clear as the American Constitution.

The heart of the question is whether all Americans are to be afforded equal rights and equal opportunities, whether we are going to treat our fellow Americans as we want to be treated. If an American, because his skin is dark, cannot eat lunch in a restaurant open to the public, if he cannot send his children to the best public school available, if he cannot vote for the public officials who represent him, if, in short, he cannot enjoy the full and free life which all of us want, then who among us would be content to have the color of his skin changed and stand in his place? Who among us would then be content with the counsels of patience and delay?

One hundred years of delay have passed since President Lincoln freed the slaves, yet their heirs, their grandsons, are not fully free. They are not yet freed from the bonds of injustice. They are not yet freed from social and economic oppression. And this Nation, for all its hopes and all its boasts, will not be fully free until all its citizens are free.

We preach freedom around the world, and we mean it, and we cherish our freedom here at home, but are we to say to the world, and much more importantly, to each other that this is a land of the free except for the Negroes; that we have no second-class citizens except Negroes; that we have no class or cast system, no ghettoes, no master race except with respect to Negroes?

Now the time has come for this Nation to fulfill its promise. The events in Birmingham and elsewhere have so increased the cries for equality that no city or State or legislative body can prudently choose to ignore them.

The fires of frustration and discord are burning in every city, North and South, where legal remedies are not at hand. Redress is sought in the streets, in demonstrations, parades, and protests which create tensions and threaten violence and threaten lives.

We face, therefore, a moral crisis as a country and as a people. It cannot be met by repressive police action. It cannot be left to increased demonstrations in the streets. It cannot be quieted by token moves or talk. It is a time to act in the Congress, in your State and local legislative body and, above all, in all of our daily lives.

It is not enough to pin the blame on others, to say this is a problem of one section of the country or another, or deplore the fact that we face. A great change is at hand, and our task, our obligation, is to make that revolution, that change, peaceful and constructive for all.

Those who do nothing are inviting shame as well as violence. Those who act boldly are recognizing right as well as reality.

Next week I shall ask the Congress of the United States to act, to make a commitment it has not fully made in this century to the proposition that race has no place in American life or law. The Federal judiciary has upheld that proposition in a series of forthright cases. The executive branch has adopted that proposition in the conduct of its affairs, including the employment of Federal personnel, the use of Federal facilities, and the sale of federally financed housing.

But there are other necessary measures which only the Congress can provide, and they must be provided at this session. The old code of equity law under which we live commands for every wrong a remedy, but in too many communities, in too many parts of the country, wrongs are inflicted on Negro citizens and there are no remedies at law. Unless the Congress acts, their only remedy is in the street.

I am, therefore, asking the Congress to enact legislation giving all Americans the right to be served in facilities which are open to the public—hotels, restaurants, theaters, retail stores, and similar establishments.

This seems to me to be an elementary right. Its denial is an arbitrary indignity that no American in 1963 should have to endure, but many do.

I have recently met with scores of business leaders urging them to take voluntary action to end this discrimination and I have been encouraged by their response, and in the last 2 weeks over 75 cities have seen progress made in desegregating these kinds of facilities. But many are unwilling to act alone, and for this reason, nationwide legislation is needed if we are to move this problem from the streets to the courts.

I am also asking Congress to authorize the Federal Government to participate more fully in lawsuits designed to end segregation in public education. We have succeeded in persuading many districts to de-segregate voluntarily. Dozens have admitted Negroes without violence. Today a Negro is attending a State-supported institution in every one of our 50 States, but the pace is very slow.

Too many Negro children entering segregated grade schools at the time of the Supreme Court's decision 9 years ago will enter segregated high schools this fall, having suffered a loss which can never be restored. The lack of an adequate education denies the Negro a chance to get a decent job.

The orderly implementation of the Supreme Court decision, therefore, cannot be left solely to those who may not have the economic resources to carry the legal action or who may be subject to harassment.

Other features will be also requested, including greater protection for the right to vote. But legislation, I repeat, cannot solve this problem alone. It must be solved in the homes of every American in every community across our country.

In this respect, I want to pay tribute to those citizens North and South who have been working in their communities to make life better for all. They are acting not out of a sense of legal duty but out of a sense of human decency.

Like our soldiers and sailors in all parts of the world they are meeting freedom's challenge on the firing line, and I salute them for their honor and their courage.

My fellow Americans, this is a problem which faces us all—in every city of the North as well as the South. Today there are Negroes unemployed, two or three times as many compared to whites, inadequate in education, moving into the large cities, unable to find work, young people particularly out of work without hope, denied equal rights, denied the opportunity to eat at a restaurant or lunch counter or go to a movie theater, denied the right to a decent education, denied almost today the right to attend a State university even though qualified. It seems to me that these are matters which concern us all, not merely Presidents or Congressmen or Governors, but every citizen of the United States.

This is one country. It has become one country because all of us and all the people who came here had an equal chance to develop their talents.

We cannot say to 10 percent of the population that you can't have that right; that your children can't have the chance to develop whatever talents they have; that the only way that they are going to get their rights is to go into the streets and demonstrate. I think we owe them and we owe ourselves a better country than that.

Therefore, I am asking for your help in making it easier for us to move ahead and to provide the kind of equality of treatment which we would want ourselves; to give a chance for every child to be educated to the limit of his talents.

As I have said before, not every child has an equal talent or an equal ability or an equal motivation, but they should have the equal right to develop their talent and their ability and their motivation, to make something of themselves.

We have a right to expect that the Negro community will be responsible, will uphold the law, but they have a right to expect that the law will be fair, that the Constitution will be color blind, as Justice Harlan said at the turn of the century.

This is what we are talking about and this is a matter which concerns this country and what it stands for, and in meeting it I ask the support of all our citizens.

Thank you very much
(Source: http://millercenter.org/president/spe...)


Bryan Craig You get a sense from Caro that LBJ had a hand in, or at the very least, the president sought out LBJ's advice on this speech. Maybe not the specifics, but the tone, the need to present a moral commitment.

Would you agree that this shows LBJ understands the power of the presidency just as well as JFK?


Ann D A very strong speech. Thank you for posting it, Bryan.


message 17: by G (new) - rated it 5 stars

G Hodges (glh1) | 901 comments Bryan wrote: "You get a sense from Caro that LBJ had a hand in, or at the very least, the president sought out LBJ's advice on this speech. Maybe not the specifics, but the tone, the need to present a moral com..."

Unless I have the dates wrong, it certainly looks like JFK's speech was after LBJ's Gettysburg speech and so the president must have gleaned ideas from his VP, whether directly or peripherally is open to opinion. Clearly, according to Caro, LBJ knew the position of the Presidency had the prestige to impact policy - "the President is the cannon" (p 260)


message 18: by Bryan (last edited Oct 23, 2012 06:56AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bryan Craig You are correct, G, LBJ seemed to be ahead of the administration "curve." I was a little surprised because JFK was pretty cautious about civil rights.

LBJ's influence on JFK's thinking needs deeper examination. The literature discusses the impact of MLK and the Birmingham campaign that turned the administration around. However, Caro suggests something else: LBJ might have helped in this matter.


Bryan Craig Ann wrote: "A very strong speech. Thank you for posting it, Bryan."

Very welcome. I hope it helps with the context :)


Tomerobber | 334 comments The plot thickens . . . on to Dallas.

Although Washington DC is would be a great place to visit and soak up the history of this country . . . I don't think I'd want to live there. It's the covert history of the political machine that's too close to the surface that overpowers the events for which it's famous and sullies the atmosphere.


Bryan Craig When I considered living in D.C., I was more concerned with the traffic congestion, lol. There is a lot of great history there, though.


Bryan Craig No doubt, Cheryl, many people were tired of waiting, they had to act.

The Birmingham response by "Bull" O'Conner, the Commissioner of Public Safety, was hard-core.

The Bolsheviks had a joke: they should have given Tsar Nicholas the Order of Lenin, because of all he did to bring about the revolution. We could say the same of Theophilus Eugene "Bull" Connor of Birmingham.


Bryan Craig Well said, Cheryl, and LBJ saw the injustice pretty early in life.


Bryan Craig The Baker story, it seems the story is getting ahead of LBJ in chapter 10. And this was before 24/7 cable and social media!

Are you surprised by this story?


message 25: by Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bentley | 44291 comments Mod
Bryan in a way yes.


message 26: by Bryan (last edited Oct 24, 2012 10:49AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bryan Craig I agree, Cheryl, I think it does reflect his use of power. It is not uncommon that is for sure.

I guess I was a little surprised because on the surface LBJ does not equate with corruption like other presidents.


Tomerobber | 334 comments Well, in today's world all this behind the scenes drama would almost be expected . . . Politics and big business has never been known for clean laundry. And the Texas political scene at that time . . . it seems almost to be acceptable behavior.


Bryan Craig That is for sure, Tomerobber. Texas politics was getting heated.


message 29: by G (new) - rated it 5 stars

G Hodges (glh1) | 901 comments Cheryl wrote: "Bryan wrote: "...on the surface LBJ does not equate with corruption like other presidents."

Could you say more about this statement?

Bryan wrote: "Texas politics was getting heated."

There were ..."


Cheryl, I heard those comments in my New York high school as well. I just think as a country we are resistant to 'new' in politics, which is confounding, really.

Hanging over my thoughts as I read this chapter was how irrelevant it all seems. I am almost afraid to read forward. I don't want to relive it.


Bryan Craig Cheryl wrote: "Bryan wrote: "...on the surface LBJ does not equate with corruption like other presidents."

Could you say more about this statement?"


Some presidents have a legacy of corruption, real or not, like Grant and Harding. For LBJ, you think of the large events: Kennedy assassination, Great Society, Vietnam. I think these larger events covered up any possible corruption


message 31: by Bryan (last edited Oct 25, 2012 11:03AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bryan Craig When I read this part about Yarborough vs. Connally vs. LBJ, I didn't have much context. Caro didn't go into the Texas issue as much, so I found a good piece that is helpful:

In the Senate, Yarborough established himself as a very different Democrat than the majority of his southern colleagues. After refusing to support a resolution opposing desegregation, he became one of only five southern senators to vote for the Civil Rights Act of 1957. He defeated wealthy conservative Democrat William A. "Dollar Bill" Blakley in the primary and Republican Ray Wittenburg in the election to win a full term in 1958. In 1960 Yarborough sponsored the Senate resolution leading to the Kennedy-Nixon television debate, a crucial event in the election and a model for subsequent presidential campaigns. In 1963 Yarborough was present at the Kennedy assassination; many believe his feud with conservative governor John B. Connally led to his sitting in the second car in the motorcade rather than with the president. Yarborough defeated George H. W. Bush, future president of the United States, in the senatorial race of 1964. In his years in the senate Yarborough supported many of the key bills of LBJ's Great Society and pressed for legislative action in the fields of civil rights, education, public health, and environmental protection. He voted for the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and was one of only three southerners to support the Voting Rights Act of 1965. Yarborough served for years on the Senate Labor and Public Welfare Committee, of which he became chairman in 1969. He sponsored or cosponsored the Elementary and Secondary Education Act (1965), the Higher Education Act (1965) the Bilingual Education Act (1967), and the updated GI Bill of 1966. He was also an advocate for such public-health measures as the Occupational Health and Safety Act, the Community Mental Health Center Act, and the National Cancer Act of 1970. A strong supporter of preserving the environment, he co-wrote the Endangered Species Act of 1969 and sponsored the legislation establishing three national wildlife sanctuaries in Texas-Padre Island National Seashore (1962), Guadalupe Mountains National Park (1966), and Big Thicket National Preserve (1971). His interest in the preservation of Texas historical sites led him to sponsor bills to make Fort Davis, Jeff Davis County and the Alibates Flint Quarries national monuments.

Through his support of the social welfare legislation of the 1960s Yarborough further identified himself with the goals of the national Democratic party and further distanced himself from the moderate-conservative state Democratic party.
(source: http://www.tshaonline.org/handbook/on...)

-----------------

So, Yarborough was more liberal, moving against the larger trend in Texas with growing conservatism.


Tomerobber | 334 comments I'm reading ahead because I have another book I need to get caught up on . . . so I'm up chap. 13. But even though I wasn't sure about reliving all that history again . . . it was enlightening to read the facts that took place and the different impressions by the people who were there.


Bryan Craig I can understand, G and Tomerobber. It was one of the most iconic and emotional time in our modern history.

I'm glad you are sticking with it, though, I appreciate it.


Steven Harbin (stevenharbin) | 105 comments Bryan wrote: "When I considered living in D.C., I was more concerned with the traffic congestion, lol. There is a lot of great history there, though." Lol, that would be a major concern of mine as well. I think LBJ was looking for a purpose (perhaps even a "higher" purpose, as well as power most of his life. I agree with Ann in that I think LBJ's speeches on this period of his life regarding Civil Rights were sincere.
I also think the hatred between RFK and LBJ was so strong that it brought out the worst in both men, each of whom was flawed, but also good in different ways.


Steven Harbin (stevenharbin) | 105 comments Bryan wrote: "When I read this part about Yarborough vs. Connally vs. LBJ, I didn't have much context. Caro didn't go into the Texas issue as much, so I found a good piece that is helpful:

In the Senate, Yarbo..."


Thanks for posting this background information on Yarborough. I remembered him as Senator from Texas,but this information really helps put him in the context of the time and people and politics. It's interesting that his moderation/liberalism (at lease compared to other Southern politician) on civil rights didn't seem to hurt him in his re-election bids of 1958 and 64.


Steven Harbin (stevenharbin) | 105 comments Bryan wrote: "Cheryl wrote: "Bryan wrote: "...on the surface LBJ does not equate with corruption like other presidents."

Could you say more about this statement?"

Some presidents have a legacy of corruption, r..."


As a reader of science fiction and alternate history fiction, as well as history and biography, I think it's interesting to speculate what LBJ's fate might have been if JFK had not been assassinated. Would the burgeoning scandals of the articles on his wealth and Bobby Baker connections have given JFK a good reason to "dump" him from the ticket? And would he have then faded away to humiliation and political obscurity back in Texas, much as his father had? His one great fear realized?


Bryan Craig Your welcome.

It is interesting about '58 and '64. Maybe the part of the reason was his opponent.


Bryan Craig Steven wrote: "Bryan wrote: "When I considered living in D.C., I was more concerned with the traffic congestion, lol. There is a lot of great history there, though." Lol, that would be a major concern of mine as..."

Yes, the relationship seems so raw, so volatile. I agree, it did bring out the worst in both men.


message 39: by G (last edited Oct 26, 2012 07:48AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

G Hodges (glh1) | 901 comments Bryan wrote: "Steven wrote: "Bryan wrote: "When I considered living in D.C., I was more concerned with the traffic congestion, lol. There is a lot of great history there, though." Lol, that would be a major con..."

Yes, but what was it about each man that brought out the worst in the other? Lyndon hating Bobby because of his privilege? That can't be because he really did admire JFK to some degree. Bobby hating LBJ because of his political cronyism? That is possible. I don't just understand the deep antipathy. And they were that way before they even knew each other personally. I understand the cafeteria incident was bad, but did it warrant the depths of hatred Bobby showed and seemed to show before then? Usually hatred like that happens when envy is involved and I just don't see that here.


message 40: by Mark (new) - rated it 5 stars

Mark Mortensen I believe it is simply about power and control. Controlling personalities can be very tough to deal with.


Bryan Craig I do believe you can dislike someone without meeting or having known someone. RFK heard the stories about LBJ and his father, and being extremely loyal, RFK wrote this guy off. Now, they begin to interact, and it just gets worse.

I think Mark is also correct. Both Kennedys wanted to check LBJ's power because they had to beg to LBJ while JFK was in the Senate. Not good memories.

LBJ could have felt envious, too.


back to top

unread topics | mark unread


Books mentioned in this topic

The Passage of Power (other topics)

Authors mentioned in this topic

Robert A. Caro (other topics)