The Bridgeburners discussion

Last section of Forge, and as always I wasn't able to put the book down once I got to this point! :)

Lee I know your reading this section but you're not posting!! :(

The sh*t is hitting the fan now!! The Legion has completely become unhinged, killing anyone they want! But I have to say that I wasn't sad to see Orfantal's Grandmother go that's for sure, she was a miserable being! And what about Sagander's betrayal, he better hope Draconus doesn't find him!

There are so many people who just need to die already. Come on Rake! Get your angry on!

Sorry, lot of travel this week. So getting tons of reading on planes but not much commenting time.

Wow the Narad character has a complex character development. After raping to death (harsh but fair) Enesdia I thought he'd end up screwed in the head and become a real bad ass, instead we are treated to a roller coaster of emotions and a thoroughly fascinating read.

Lot of characters showing their short comings for Tiste, which is unusual.

Syntara is showing some serious intelligence and cunning, what a great read she is becoming.

Omg Urusander just got converted.

Oh no! Rint, Faran don't do it. Run away! Can't see this ending happy, Draconus houseswords are not going to be a push over, plus where are those three skanky daughters hiding?

"No more bread in this one"


Awwwww sisterly love at its finest.WTF draconus, what have you spawned?

Grizzen farl " I am not the one imposed upon, as the Tiste do not fall under my influence"

Wow, just freakin wow!

Just to keep my thoughts going; Farl gives us some interesting thoughts with the vitr. Calling it 'that caustic sea' and that T'riss was not known to him. That the Azathanai did not approve.

So that leads me to think that the Azathanai do not use the Vitr. So who the hell is T'riss?

Well, here is a young priest called Endest Sillan at the Citadel, I just looked back to TH and there he is as the old old man servant of Rake, once high priest/mage I think. The man given the task of settling the Moon Spawn in the lake. Obviously becoming Elient does a lot for your ageing process as currently he is about the same age as Rake, but in TH he is ancient.

Looking forward to the part where Draconus makes his sword and names it. If i remember rightly, Rake has 'Vengence' and Draconus has 'Dragonpur', but Rake takes Dragonpur and does the killing thing with Draconus.

So why does Draconus call it 'Dragonpur' given that Rake is later called Anomander Dragonpurake? Or does it become Dragonpur after Draconus is dead and pushing carts inside it?

So i guess i made up for my lack of posts.

Lee wrote: "Looking forward to the part where Draconus makes his sword and names it. If i remember rightly, Rake has 'Vengence' and Draconus has 'Dragonpur', but Rake takes Dragonpur and does the killing thing with Draconus. "

The scene where Rake names the sword "Vengeance" against the pleading of his brother to name it "Grief" was particularly poignant given the events of Toll The Hounds. The sword and Rake come full circle. Rake denies Traveller Vengeance by killing Hood after which Rake is killed by Traveller using "Vengeance" after which the name of the sword reverts back to "Grief."
Wow.

Now I'm going to duck before Shelley takes a swipe and brings all my theories down in ruin.

And should have added Rake frees Draconus from Dragnipur thereby relinquishing his own Vengeance. And then Mother Dark returns.

Hahaahahahahahahahahahahhahaahhahaaaaaaa....Lee, I'm gonna have to look at all these posts later this evening!!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAAAAAA so funny David!!! ;-)

Do we find out what or who the River God is. Is it Mael maybe?

I don't think that it will be Mael, if it was, I think he would have had more of a presence. Plus I think he is Sea God.

How is this for a jaw dropper; Grizzen Farl has just informed MD that Draconus has gifted her the The Gate of Kurald Galain, he then leaves and;

Outside the chamber he paused in the corridor.I forgot to warn her. With the birth of one gate, there will be others

er yeah, wtg Farl, just a small thing to forget.

Hahahahahhahahhhhaaaaa.... thanks Lee!!! There's really been little to laugh at the last few days, but I come here and this amazing series has brought all of us together, helping me to put reality away for awhile and just imagine! Then to find friendships there make it all the better! So thanks Lee and David for trully making me laugh today!

Soooooooo let's see which theories of David's I can knock down AND WHICH I can help stand up! ;-)

Mael is the sea god so I agree that's the argument against.

Can someone explain the deal with Gates and Warrens. Are gates the legitimate entry into the warrens? The normal mode of entering a warren in the Malazan series was basically to cut a hole in the side and slip through, and too many people doing it that way damaged the warrens - I think.

And if Draconus gives MD the gate, does that mean Krul gave Draconus access to the gate first? Or do the Azenthai already own the gates and Krul is providing a backdoor via warrens for anybody to be able to access magic?

Now I need some Aspirin

Lee wrote: "Wow the Narad character has a complex character development. After raping to death (harsh but fair) Enesdia I thought he'd end up screwed in the head and become a real bad ass, instead we are treat..."

Yeah Narad, not sure what he said to make Gripp Galas hit him like he did, which in the end sent him on the path he's on, typical Tiste so sad!

Syntara shows her ambitions to the fullest, she is GOING force her way to be Mother Light I think, or try to! And Urusander (since he's white now too) will become Father Light!

And that would be Olar Ethil and Draconus WHAT HAVE YOU SPAWNED??????

Yeah Faran and Rint, damn the man's anger! If he wasn't so angry he would have reasoned out that Draconus COULD NOT have ORDERED this attack! So many emtions for Tiste don't you guys think???

Lee wrote: "Just to keep my thoughts going; Farl gives us some interesting thoughts with the vitr. Calling it 'that caustic sea' and that T'riss was not known to him. That the Azathanai did not approve.

So th..."

AND what the HELL is the Vitr!!!????

AND what the HELL are the Azathanai!!!???

LOLLLLLLL.....

Lee wrote: "Grizzen farl " I am not the one imposed upon, as the Tiste do not fall under my influence"

Wow, just freakin wow!"

RIGHT!!!!! What was he really saying there???

Endest Sillan! Ahhhhh now there's a name you need to put into your machine Lee for Toll the Hounds, so you can re-read all his future thoughts about the past!! He's one of those forgotten favorite characters, one that I couldn't wait to meet, knowing he trully wins in the end! :)

But I think you are mixing things up Lee, Endest Sillan is not Eliant, for some reason the Tiste become long lived, a hand full become Eliant, but only like 20 Tiste overall, you can pass Eliant on to your children, thinking of Nimander Rake's son, but most were made Eliant to stem the tide of the civil war.

The thing about Draconus that struck me was that EVERYONE told him NOT to do this thing, yet he did it anyway saying that he would made a sword to contain the gate!

I'm not sure that Rake's naming of his sword had anything to do with Draconus'. The fact that SOME HOW Rake disarms Draconus and kills him with his own sword is what I can't wait to read!

And you guys are getting things mixed up here, Rake called his sword Vengence and Andarist asked him to name it Grief, which causes their astrangement. Later when when we actually first meet Andarist, on the Andii drifting Island, he gives Traveler the sword, before he dies, and Traveler asks what's the name of the sword? Andarist tells him the sword was known by two names, first Vengence, then Grief....Traveler says that he will too call it Vengence and you see Andarist almost sag with disappointment!

SO David you had it right untill you said Traveler killed Rake with Vengence, Rake killed Rake with Dragonpur which is how Rake ends up in the sword! :)

Shelley wrote: "Lee wrote: "Grizzen farl " I am not the one imposed upon, as the Tiste do not fall under my influence"

Wow, just freakin wow!"

RIGHT!!!!! What was he really saying there???"

The Tiste fall under Draconus' influence? Seeing's he's gifted them the Gate of Kurald Galain? Perhaps the Azethanai each control a different gate into a different warren or realm?

Shelley wrote: "SO David you had it right untill you said Traveler killed Rake with Vengence, Rake killed Rake with Dragonpur which is how Rake ends up in the sword! :) "

Rake turns Dranipur on himself and Traveller uses Vengeance to ram Dragnipur into Rake - yes I did remember that bit.

But you have me thinking now. Maybe this is how Draconus will end up in the sword. I'm thinking there's no way Rake can take Draconus. Maybe Draconus deliberately loses to Rake to send himself in . Perhaps he turns the sword on himself the same way Rake did in TTH. Draconus provokes Rake to attack him with Vengeance, Rake hits Draginpur, sends D in.

Maybe Rake learnt his stunt in TTH from the previous owner?

I'd forgotten that it was Andarist on the drifting Isle. Cool.

The Tiste become soletaken by drinking Elient blood from memory. Its one of the reasons MD turned her back on them. Or maybe it was that and Rake killing Draconus. She comes back after Draconus is freed, when Rake relinquishes his personal Vengeance.
Maybe Rake becomes soletaken so they can take on Draconus? Aaargghhhhh!!!! Too many questions. I'm going to have to read the whole series again!

Reading all these comments makes me want to get out the book and read it again :)

The Tiste become soletaken by drinking Elient blood from memory Tiams blood right? If I am right this is how Sukul and Meandore become sisters. I am sure this is how the Tiste become Elient.

And if Draconus gives MD the gate, does that mean Krul gave Draconus access to the gate first? Or do the Azenthai already own the gates and Krul is providing a backdoor via warrens for anybody to be able to access magic?

I dont think the Azantania are particularly happy with K'rul and his free gift of sharing magic. So I see that K'rul has created the warrens and the Azanthania are creating the gates.

I think Farls comments on talking about Tiste not falling under his influence, stinks of God like control. Maybe Drancous made the Tiste and they are his playthings.

Lee wrote: "Tiams blood right? If I am right this is how Sukul and Meandore become sisters. I am sure this is how the Tiste become Elient."

They drink Tiam's blood yes. But the Elient are dragons and a separate race to the Tiste. Then the Tiste who drink their blood become Soletaken Elient.

And Draconus is aspected to darkness so maybe the other Azathenai have their own aspects. Maybe Tris is aspected to Light? So maybe Triss and MD come to some sort of compromise where the Deniers and their River god become aspected to Shadow?

Lee wrote: "I think Farls comments on talking about Tiste not falling under his influence, stinks of God like control. Maybe Drancous made the Tiste and they are his playthings."

Well the Azathenai are basically Elder gods right? And the elder gods have supposedly created the other races?

I think they are grandfather elder gods. I am expecting the deniers to bugger off and become the Edur. But that is an interesting topic to bring up, shadow aspect.

Sorry I've been busy trying to catch up!

So the Azathanai!!! It all starts and ends with them! As you said Lee, the Azathanai aren't happy with K'rul and his "gift" to anyone who may like to use that magic, like they were Gods!! Then we have Errantas killing Hood's wife which ends up leading to another kind of bloody magic, giving great power to the individual Azathanai when they kill.

I believe from the Azathanai we've meet it's safe to say that they created peoples as their playthings. Draconus people are the Tiste (and by extention Edur and Liosan), Olar Ethal has the Dog Runners/Imas, Killanadras has the Forklan/Forkal Assail, now who made the Jaghut, and every other race? As to calling them Elder Gods, I would, it is what we refer to them in the future. I have some notes I took thru out Forge regarding the Azathanai, but I don't have it with me now, but this is the group I'm most interested in learning about!

As for the Gate that Draconus gives to MD at the very end of the book, WOW right, totally wicked scene! Everyone told him NOT to do this thing, yet he did it anyway saying that he'd make a sword to protect the gate, which we all know that didn't work out to his favor. But what I found interesting is that Mother Dark was scared by it! Draconus took MD to the gate befoe and into Darkness, so why would the gate scare her? And WHAT about the Dragons that entered the unexpected gate that appeared above the Vitr!? Crazy times are ahead!

Things that are standing out for me right now that we haven't talked about is Hood's war against Death itself. I thought is funny as shit that SE showed us which Jaghut made the Nachet!

I agree Lee about the Deniers being Edur, for it's the shadows they have always lived in! I think Tulas will lead the Deniers out of the forest, but as we know he doesn't make it with them, so I want to know what happened to Tulas!

... and the hell does Errastas survive for the next Millenium?

When does the crippled God fall in relation to time?

What about Kallor, I remember scenes where he is with 3 gods (I think) and they make it so he cannot asend. I wonder if we get to meet the young Kallor in the next book?

Lee wrote: "What about Kallor"

Thats an interesting point. Kallor gets cursed sometime between the Imass going Tlan(hasn't happenned yet) and Draconus being sent into Dragnipur. If we assume that Draconus is going to be sent into Dragnipur this series then Kallor's story has to be told somewhere in the trilogy - as well as the Imass story. And then there's the Crippled God's story because I believe from memory that the Crippled God's fall was engineered as part of the war with Kallor. I can't remember if Kallor brought pieces of CG down to destroy his own realm once he saw it was lost or if it was Draconus, Krull and Sister of Cold Nights (Tris?)

There's a lot to be packed into the last 2 books. I sure hope SE has his own lore together. Because I'm losing the plot.

Can you remember who curses Kallor?

I am impressed with your timeline knowledge.

Maybe the last two books will be 1200 page epics

Its not really time line knowledge. I just remember that Kallor cursed Draconus to be enslaved in a weapon of his making. And another vague recollection that the Tlan were around at the time. I could be wrong about the Tlan - Shelley will know.

But it was Krull, Draconus and the Sister of Cold Nights (AKA Night Chill) who curse Kallor to live forever but never ascend or regain his power. The 3 somehow siphon power off the CG to do it. So seeings there's no CG yet I'm assuming Kallors story is still coming.
And then Kallor in turn curses those 3. Krull gets cursed to obscurity, Draconus gets cursed to be trapped in a weapon of his own making, and Night chill to betrayal - I think.

I like how you say vague recollection then go on to describe the event in detail.

I had forgotten that Kallor cursed Draconus.

Here is my review, with no spoilers.

Lee wrote: "I like how you say vague recollection then go on to describe the event in detail"

Ha Ha, you caught me before I edited my own post. My memory's vague about whether the Tlan were around at the cursing- but I'm pretty certain on who was cursing who.

Then Kallor's realm becomes the Imperial warren.

"unhuman hands shall tear your body into pieces, upon a field of battle, yet you shall know no respite - thus, my curse upon you, Sister of Cold Nights"

Then at Pale a demon pops up and does just that, before her husband sticks her body parts in a sack and runs off into the desert. Then Tattersail finds them and does the whole soulshifting thing and they become Silverfox, who as we know becomes important to the Imass.

Shite, how freakin big is Eriksons imagination?

See, my memory is vague on the exact cursing too. How did I get betrayal? Probably because there was a betrayal at Pale, though it turns out that Nightchill was doing the betraying - I remember - I think.

And who can forget the possessed/soulshifted puppet?

Kallor Eidermann Tes'thesula – The High King (of the First Empire). His despotic rule over his empire on the continent of Jacuruku led to his cursing by three Elder Gods; K'rul, Draconus and the Sister of Cold Nights. As a result of this, Kallor was doomed to live forever, though he would never ascend. In turn, he used the power of hundreds of thousands of deaths caused by the collapse of his empire to curse K'rul, Draconus and the Sister of Cold Nights. He cursed K'rul to "fade from public eye", Draconus to imprisonment in a creation of his own making (Dragnipur), and the Sister of Cold Nights to die a at the hands of her friends (as Nightchill, the goddess was betrayed by Tayschrenn in Gardens of The Moon.)

Now all this happened before the Crippled God was chained, commonly refered to as "The Chaining", which happened about 1,000 years before the Malazan series.

Lee wrote: "...Shite, how freakin big is Eriksons imagination?"

Yes that is the question here isn't it!!! What I wouldn't give to read all of SE and ICE's short stories they wrote to each other all those years ago!! Or getting to listen to all those conversations they had on building the history of this wonderful world they created!!

The dedication to ICE in Gardens of the Moon says it all, "Worlds to conquer, worlds to share." LOVE THAT!!!

Wow I missed this all, very enlightening! I can't believe you remembered who cursed who!

I don't think humans are around yet, they were the children of the Imass - and we haven't yet met them. And I always assumed Kallor was human. The FoD takes place in very early times it seems.

Aren't the Eleint from Chaos? I think the Vityr is a connection to there. But it's been awhile since I've thought about it.

David Sven wrote: "Lee wrote: "What about Kallor"

Thats an interesting point. Kallor gets cursed sometime between the Imass going Tlan(hasn't happenned yet) and Draconus being sent into Dragnipur. If we assume that ..."

Don't we know exactly who exactly Triss is at present? In the malazan books she's described as the sometime companion of rake and osserc, and more often as the goddess, queen of dreams. she makes a couple of appearances during the whirlwind remember?

@Danaja - We are doing a reread of the series over here http://www.goodreads.com/group/invite...

We just started last week and are doing 4 chapters a week - so feel welcome to join.
We would have had the reread in this group but it doesn't look like there is an active moderator here at the moment so we started a new one.

You are right about Triss. It doesn't look like I remembered too much the first time round - hence the reread.

Danaja wrote: "David Sven wrote: "Lee wrote: "What about Kallor"

Thats an interesting point. Kallor gets cursed sometime between the Imass going Tlan(hasn't happenned yet) and Draconus being sent into Dragnipur...."

Hello Danaja! Actually we didn't know who T'riss was, because she was never refered to as T'riss! Here's where SE/ICE have gotten back at us! They NEVER use the same name twice and I didn't know WHO T'riss was until I read Blood and Bone last month and in that ICE calls her the Queen of Dreams/Enchanctes/T'riss!

Lori wrote: "Wow I missed this all, very enlightening! I can't believe you remembered who cursed who!

I don't think humans are around yet, they were the children of the Imass - and we haven't yet met them. And..."

Hey Lori!

It's a by-product of having read the series so many times and moderating a group read of the series! The Imass are around because Olar Ethel is their Goddess or Azathanai! When they refer to the Children of Imass I always laugh because ALL humans are the children of the Imass! :)

As for Kallor, he is an Azathanai!

The Vitr is going to be a huge part of the next two books and I can't wait!! What I was trying to get everyone to do was make the connection between the Vitr and Krull! Towards the end of Forge, the Azathanai are commenting about Krull's actions (making magic available to everyone) and all of a sudden things were poping up in the Vitr!!

Shelley, hee yes you are certainly well versed! I am also most curious about the Vitr, I think it will explain Chaos and the Eleint.

What makes you think Kallor is Azath? I was convinced he was human.