Linguistics Discussion 2013 and Beyond discussion

One of the most fascinating topics of linguistics in my view is 'how we acquire language'. Many theories exist about the universal grammar and the language acquisition device of the brain. I want to discuss that here and also the idea of bilingualism and acquiring multiple languages. I know family friends who have a child who has picked up several languages because he lives around people who speak them. He speaks English the two variations of Chinese and one other Asiatic language. If anyone is bilingual it would be fascinating to hear your input or if you know bilingual people. Also how many languages can you 'naturally' pick up before they start to jumble around in your head?

This interests me. My children are both adopted and not born in the USA. We brought them to the USA at about one year old. They are not related and had very different foster-mothers for the first year of their lives. Both started talking relatively late compared to their peers in their native country and their peers in the US. They sound just like any other citizen of the USA now, born here or not at 5 and 7. (Now it's getting them to stop talking that's more of an issue.)

So, I always wonder if spending their first year with an entirely different learning environment then moving to a new one made any difference in their speaking ability, or their ability to comprehend the spoke word etc. Does this make things easier for them to be "bi-lingual?" (no evidence of that that I've seen.)

If they started over, what happened to all of that knowledge about language that they developed in their first year of simply making and responding to sounds?

There are apparently cases where people have been locked away from society until they were 15. When they were re-introduced to society they could pick up only handfuls of language. There appears to be something built into humans that allows us to pick up language easily, right up to a certain age and then we lose access to that and struggle to learn. Then again there are always exceptions to the rules.

English is an acquired language for me. I think it makes the mind more active having to go through the learning process of acquiring a new language. I think they would most likely have an affinity for multiple languages. They might forget their birth language, but the brain stimulation is a positive effect for any other future applications.

from memory, our ability to produce all phonemes is pruned in the first year to the language we are actively exposed to, and our ability to aquire an initial fluent language tapers off at 7. Don't quote me on those ages though, as my brain doesn't "do" numbers very well, and it's been 3 years + since I've studied this stuff.
I agree with Aloha, they may find it a lot easier to aquire other languages at a later date thanks to their early exposure to several languages.

I'm a poliglot (5 languages and a half). In my case I grew in a Hartford, CT household with a very particular characteristic: though both my parents were bilingual, they only spoke to me in their first languages. My mom taught me Spanish (she's Puerto Rican) and my father always spoke to me in Liverpool/Dublin English (he was born in Puerto Rico but grew up in England and Ireland). As such, I cannot say that I'm either a native speaker in any of both languages, or that I have a vernacular as both of them as my "mother tongues". I'd rather say that I'm "native-like" in both of them, and leave it at that, though I'm beyond expert level in both.

As to French and Italian, I learnt them when I was in college. The University of Puerto Rico has a brilliant language immersion program, where they teach a language from Monday to Friday (and some Saturdays) for an hour and a half. When you exit class, you go into a language lab for one more hour. It was absolute immersion. Plus, the rest of the Humanities Faculty lends in to give the language professors a hand by assigning books and material written in the original tongues (not translated). Thus, I read Simone du Beauvoir, the writings by Duchamp and Proust in the original French, and Pirandello, Stefano Benni and Draio Fo's literature in their original Italian.

American Sign Language is my 5th language, and though I consider it a "reactive language" (in the sense that ASL "reacts" to English as much as "Lenguaje de señas" is the deaf language that responds to Spanish), sign language per sé is considered an official language in its own, given that it relates to a specific culture. I learnt ASL in 2002. I had a deaf boyfriend named Víctor Luis (he was actually hard-of-hearing, though his conditions progressed to complete deafness). This language presented two particular problems for me: 1) I suffer from ADD, and as such, it was very difficult for me to "close my ears" and "open my eyes," and 2) the ASL grammar was challenging because verb signs are left for the end of the sentence (ergo, "I want to eat", would be Yoda-rephrased as "eat I want").

My 6th language, though only halfway as I've been trying to learn it for years, is Japanese. It represents two specific challenges: 1) I have practically nothing to hold on to in order to learn it, as Japanese resembles neither Spanish, nor English, nor French nor Italian; and 2) the four writing systems!!! Japanese can be written 4 ways, that is: 1) hiragana, which is the original Japanese script, 2) katakana, which is used mainly for words admitted from other languages, 3) kanji, which is Chinese characters brought into Japanese context, and which is mainly used for sentimental reasons (as stated by my Japanese professor, I don't know how much of that is true...), and my favourite: 4)romaji, which is Japanese in Western letters, and is mainly used for the sake of foreigners.

Then, there's political resistance. In Puerto Rico, there has always been political resistance towards learning English.

Some people say the same thing about Texas.

There are a lot of Puerto Ricans in Texas... I wonder...

I, Curmudgeon wrote: "This interests me. My children are both adopted and not born in the USA. We brought them to the USA at about one year old. They are not related and had very different foster-mothers for the firs..."

well...part of the fact that they are not currently bi-lingual is because you are not speaking to them in their native(respectively) languages....however...because they did grow up begin life in foreign countries...and then learnt English....they definitely should have a relatively easy time learning any language(including their birth language)...because they should have an "ear" for it... :)

David wrote: "I'm a poliglot (5 languages and a half). In my case I grew in a Hartford, CT household with a very particular characteristic: though both my parents were bilingual, they only spoke to me in their f..."

wow! I am impressed! I only know Italian and French...and of course English. I know a little Hindi...but not enought o carry on a conversation....I would love to learn it more thoroughly...an I would love to learn Japanese and Mandarin an Cantonese....because I think they are beautiful languages :)

Catherine wrote: "I, Curmudgeon wrote: "This interests me. My children are both adopted and not born in the USA. We brought them to the USA at about one year old. They are not related and had very different foste..."

I'm impressed too. Somepeople say I even have trouble with English.

Catherine wrote: "David wrote: "I'm a poliglot (5 languages and a half). In my case I grew in a Hartford, CT household with a very particular characteristic: though both my parents were bilingual, they only spoke t..."

well... thanks! :'-)

My first language is spanish and I've been studying English since I was in middle school. I still have problems with it because I couldn't really practice (lived all my life in Mexico), but now that I live in the US, I get to practice and am improving, but then again I live in Texas and many many people speak Spanish, so it's not like I'm totally immersed in English.

Reading helps certainly but the practice is more important.

I was also learning French, but hate that language (sorry) and when speaking it, I always got confused and mixed it with English...

So then I tried German and I really love that language, and have no problems with it.

I don't know why is that, probably my will to learn.

David wrote: "I'm a poliglot (5 languages and a half). In my case I grew in a Hartford, CT household with a very particular characteristic: though both my parents were bilingual, they only spoke to me in their f..."

Wow, David, you really have variety in your language immersion. With sign language and Japanese, I can see a connection with the visual/spatial side of language. What I mean by that is we use our visual imagery while reading.

BTW, I used to live in West Hartford, CT.

Aloha wrote: "David wrote: "I'm a poliglot (5 languages and a half). In my case I grew in a Hartford, CT household with a very particular characteristic: though both my parents were bilingual, they only spoke t..."

:-) so close!

Around the world, bi and multilinguilism is the norm. Unfortunately, like many native English speakers, it is not the norm for me. I know enough French vocab to be useful (though my grammar is very ropey) and basic holiday phrases in Spanish, Italian and Mandarin, but that's all. My son is almost fluent in Spanish and is interested in linguistics; maybe one day I'll have bilingual grandchildren!

Yes, as with you Cecily, I know handfuls of words from other languages but not enough to read or speak them. I do want to attempt to learn a new language though I know at my age it would be like trying to rewire my brain - in other words difficult.

I once read, in John Le Carre's Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy actually, that possessing another language is like possessing another soul. The idea has stuck with me.

An interesting analogy, but I'm not sure I'd want to have a second soul... that's really got me thinking!

Jonathan....if you already speak more than one language...it is not that difficult to pick up another....yes....of course there is the initial difficulty...but once you get past that....it should be smoothe sailing.....because if you are already multilingual.....you have an "ear" for it.....no need to rewire your brain! :)

Jonathan wrote: "One of the most fascinating topics of linguistics in my view is 'how we acquire language'."

Or how we don't?

Jonathan wrote: "Yes, as with you Cecily, I know handfuls of words from other languages but not enough to read or speak them. I do want to attempt to learn a new language though I know at my age it would be like tr..."

You know actually that's true, many people "change" their personality unconsciously when speaking another language.

Erika wrote: "Jonathan wrote: "Yes, as with you Cecily, I know handfuls of words from other languages but not enough to read or speak them. I do want to attempt to learn a new language though I know at my age it..."

not only that... i've discovered that my voice is deeper when speaking Spanish and English, and higher when speaking French. It goes up several octaves.

Catherine wrote: "Jonathan....if you already speak more than one language...it is not that difficult to pick up another....yes....of course there is the initial difficulty...but once you get past that....it should b..."

I've been told that. It's one reason why people who do possess two or more languages will often pick up more. It's a reason why Tolkien picked up so many!

David wrote: "Erika wrote: "Jonathan wrote: "Yes, as with you Cecily, I know handfuls of words from other languages but not enough to read or speak them. I do want to attempt to learn a new language though I kno..."

Wow, that's fascinating!

I have a technique... The first thing I tackle when learning a new language is the verb tenses. Take that out and the rest will just follow.

David wrote: "I have a technique... The first thin I tackle when learning a new language is the verb tenses. Take that out and the rest will just follow."

Huh. I know Spanish but I still have trouble with some of the more difficult tenses. I'm trying to learn Latin right now. Maybe I will try to do it that way.

David wrote: "I have a technique... The first thin I tackle when learning a new language is the verb tenses. Take that out and the rest will just follow."

That's an interesting tactic, and I suppose it depends partly on your reason for learning a language and how proficient you want to be. If you just want tourist-level stuff, I find vocab more useful than correct grammar. On the other hand, a language like Mandarin, where almost all the verbs are regular, make your approach quite easy.

I speak 3 and a half languages. Besides my native language(which is called Azerbaijani) I speak English and Turkish and Russian. Or rather I understand Russian. I understand pretty much everything written and spoken in Russian but i have trouble speaking it. Maybe because I haven't practiced enough, I really don't know. I think Russian is one of the most difficult languages to learn.

Narmin wrote: "...I think Russian is one of the most difficult languages to learn. "

Surely there can't be an objective measure of the hardest or easiest language to learn, because it will be hugely dependent on what other languages someone already knows? I don't know what languages are most closely related to Russian, but I presume a fluent speaker of one of those would have less difficulty than someone who only spoke, say, Maori.

Cecily wrote: "Narmin wrote: "...I think Russian is one of the most difficult languages to learn. "

Surely there can't be an objective measure of the hardest or easiest language to learn, because it will be huge..."

I agree, people who speak one of the Slavic languages would find it relatively easy to learn Russian. But I'm not one of those people, so it's difficult to me, and mind you I'm living in one of the former Soviet states so it should be easier for me to speak Russian but it's not. I'm not exactly saying Russian is the most diffult language in the world but it's definitely the hardest language I've ever attempted to learn.

Hi all! if I may contribute something :)
Someone up mentioned the case of people who have been languageless up to 15 and found language difficult to acquire.
I know of studied cases of two women - one of which was Genie, found after being terribly abused by her father and spending most of her life chained in a small room. She was exposed to language at an age way "after" Lenneberg's proposed critical period for language acquisition and indeed her performances were poor when it came to syntax, but she was able to memorise huge lists of words.
however, Genie had an atrophied left hemisphere so that may in fact explain her poor performance. therefore, it has not been taken as a conclusive evidence for there being a point up to which you "had to pick up language" or you wouldn't pick it ever "properly".

The other woman also had a problem - she started in her 30s and she had hearing problems. Similarly, she had no trouble memorising words, but her syntax remained poor. However, it is hard to make inferences when the individual has another "problem" that may influence language.

(if you're interested in Genie story, Curtiss wrote about it in 1977 "Genie: A psycholinguistic study of a modern day 'wild child'")

However, it is hard to speak of there being a proper "critical period" - according to Aitchinson it's perhaps better to refer to it as a sensitivity period in which early exposure is a strong advantage (p. 95, The Articulate Mammal)

I'd wholeheartedly recommend reading Lenneberg (1967) for more on critical period as well as Newport (1991) who also addresses the issue if you're interested. For a short overview of these two cases and the debate of nature v nurture, I'd recommend the aforementioned The Articulate Mammal - Chapter 4 in particular although 1-3 and 5 may also be interesting. :) It's also fairly easy and fun to read. :) and it's a good place to start.

**as for me**
I am not bilingual. XD My native language is Croatian, but I speak a few languages - Czech and English (in which I have degrees), German and Modern Greek (although I haven't used them in a while and I'm much better at comprehension than production).

Currently I am learning Dutch. I can grasp the majority of Slavic languages to some extent, but I wouldn't claim to "actively" speak any of them.

I also did a full course on Old Church Slavonic and Old English.

In response to Cecily and Nermin - When I tackled Czech, being a native speaker of a Southern Slavic language, I didn't find it relatively easy. The degree of overlap was just about "right" to muddle the learning and the pronunciation remained a problem for a while. I would be very careful to forward a claim about "the ease of learning a language". I personally find Dutch to be "easier for me" than Czech :D

Ana-Marija wrote: I can grasp the majority of Slavic languages to some extent, but I wouldn't claim to "actively" speak any of them.
."

It's kinda the same with me, you know, my mother tongue belongs to Turkic languages family so I can understand many other Turkic languages easily but yeah, I can't actively speak any of them either. The same goes for the Slavic languages similar to Russian.

Agreeing with Ana-Marija, I don't think there is a cut-off age at which people become "unable" to learn a language. Of course, it does become much more difficult, as many SLA studies have shown, and beyond the critical period the speaker will be more likely to have an accent in the target language(s). I think SLA research is so interesting. I took a course on it a few years ago and I'd like to continue with it at some point.

I'm bilingual (English & Japanese) and I speak French decently. I studied Russian for a while in college and got pretty good at it, but I haven't had the chance to use it in quite a while now so I'm not that great at it anymore. I also speak basic conversational Korean because I lived there for a while, and I can read it, but I'm nowhere near fluent. I was in my early teens when I started learning Japanese, so depending on who you ask, I was either still within the critical period or just outside it. I believe I was still within it because I have been told by native speakers that I have virtually no accent, which is really unusual for foreigners who speak Japanese. But at the same time, I didn't become completely fluent at that time, and I learned a lot of grammatical structures and vocabulary years later, so I still make some grammatical/lexical errors.

Also, linguistics research makes it clear that there is no "hardest language." It all depends on your native language and the target language. For native English speakers, level-1 languages (the easiest) are Spanish, French, etc. because there are many cognates and a lot of the grammar is similar, whereas Japanese and Korean are level 4 because the structures are so different and there are hardly any cognates between the two. And even so, the levels really have more to do with the approximate number of hours of study it would take you to become proficient. I wonder if the number of hours of study required would be different before the end of the critical period? Or if the levels matter as much for young children?

Erika wrote: "I was also learning French, but hate that language (sorry) and when speaking it, I always got confused and mixed it with English...

So then I tried German and I really love that language, and have..."
You´re completely right: you´ve learned German because you like it! Motivation is very important to learn other language!

Diane wrote: "You´re completely right: you´ve learned German because you like it! Motivation is very important to learn other language!"

That's one thing my Italian professor always reiterates; you have to want to learn the the language. Not just want to know it, but want to go through the process of learning it.

I can't help but wish it was as easy as plugging our brains in, like the Matrix. Boom! New language!