Fans of British Writers discussion

Today we're starting our common read of Fated, the first book in Benedict Jacka's Alex Verus urban fantasy series. It's a brand new series, the first three books having been published for the first time only last year. (At times, it's been compared to the Harry Dresden series by U.S. author Jim Butcher, so that might be a topic for discussion.)

Jacka was born in London in 1980. He's a graduate of England's prestigious Cambridge Univ. (majoring in philosophy), and writes speculative fiction for both the adult and children's markets.

How does the discussion work? I've not participated in an online book group before.

LeAnn, in the groups where I've taken part in common reads, it's usually been pretty much an open free-for-all, where anyone who's reading the book can share reactions, thoughts, questions, background information, links to reviews, or whatever he/she feels might be worthwhile or illuminating; and others can respond to it if they want to. Sometimes they get into running debates, if people have different perspectives. :-) (Some groups will designate a leader, who's responsible to keep the discission going and sometimes suggests questions to be answered; but I've personally never thought that's necessary.)

One important point to remember is that people are at different stages in reading the book, since not every participant starts on the first day of the month, and we read at different speeds. So, if to make a point you need to refer to something that might be a spoiler for folks not so far into the book as you are, it's a good idea to hide that part of your post with spoiler tags. For an explanation of how to do that, click on the "some html is okay" link above the box where you type your comment. That will create a "view spoiler" link in your post, which those who want to can click.

Thanks, Werner! I think I'll wait a bit and see what percolates. It was a nice change of pace from what I usually read for guilty pleasure.

I finished this one a while back and have added it to my favorites. This is probably (this is the first book in what is probably) my second favorite Urban Fantasy series.

I'll wait to link my review to give people time to finish. I can however endorse this book, I really liked it, and I've read the second already.

I liked it, too, Mike. I haven't read straight fantasy since high school (other than the childrens/YA books I've read with my children). Now I'm glad to be reintroduced to the genre.

Without spoiling anything (I hope), I was pleasantly surprised that Jacka chose to use his fantasy as a commentary on reality, which brings it closer to literature. I found Alex's early descriptions of the Council of white mages, who won a Pyrrhic victory over black mages in a past war, relevant to modern politics. In fact, I can't help but think about Neville Chamberlain and appeasing Nazis.

I see you've given it the illusive 5 stars Mike . I guess that means its going on my to read list :)

LeAnn wrote: "I haven't read straight fantasy since high school". The Alex Verus series, of course, is called "urban fantasy;" that's the standard term for its subgenre, and that's the way booksellers and readers universally recognize it nowadays. But I'm of the opinion that there are conceptually significant differences between magic-based fiction set in our own world vs. fantasy like that written by authors such as Tolkien or Lewis, set in an essentially invented world.

Shakespeare said, "A rose by any other name would smell as sweet," and too much wrangling over literary classification may not be the most practical critical exercise. But taxonomy has its place; classification can be a fruitful way of recognizing similarities and differences among individual works, which helps us to better understand them and their relationships. The term "urban fantasy" suggests that we're dealing here with a sub-species of the same genus as the Narnia tales or LOTR, or the same genus as "swords and sorcery." But is "urban fantasy" the most felicitous term? Or are series like this one, Butcher's Harry Dresden tales, de Lint's Newford stories, etc., really more akin to something like Harry Potter, Twilight, or the older supernatural/ghost story tradition? (Or does the question just occupy nit-picking theorists with nothing practical to do? :-) ) What do you all think?

No Werner I wouldn't call it "nit-picky" it just means more to some than others. I've been in groups where the question absorbed large numbers of posts. LOL

There are a lot of "sub-genres" of fantasy, high fantasy, low fantasy, sword and sorcery, urban fantasy, paranormal romance, horror, on and on. Urban fantasy is a relatively new genre (as it would be set in the modern world). Personally I'm mostly into UF for the escapist value...There are lots of other books for relevance. :) Though I'm glad you found it.

Werner wrote: "LeAnn wrote: "I haven't read straight fantasy since high school". The Alex Verus series, of course, is called "urban fantasy;" that's the standard term for its subgenre, and that's the way booksel..."

Well, I didn't stop to think about what kettle of fish I was frying when I wrote "straight fantasy." I appreciate the distinction but when I wrote this, I actually had in mind a fantasy literature course that I took in college that had covered a much broader range of works than I had previously considered as "fantasy" (A Midsummer's Night's Dream and The Mouse that Roared were on the syllabus, for example). So when I wrote "straight fantasy" I was thinking magic and magical beings, whether set in our world or an invented world.

So while I actually like picking nits in order to better understand the range of what constitutes fantasy, I think Harry Potter and The Hobbit are more alike than Harry Potter and The Eyre Affair or The Yiddish Policeman's Union, both set in alternate universes, one fantastic and the other realistic but sans magic.

Does this make sense?

Sure I suspect most us see what you're getting at...of course that does not presuppose they all agree with you. :)

Mike, I think ALL fiction (even if it's set in a completely alien world) has some real-world relevance, or we couldn't relate to it. Characters in a fantasy world like Middle Earth or Alagasia still grapple with the same existential questions we do, with ethical conflicts, with questions about the uses of power and the kind of society they want to have. All of those things have carry-over significance. (Of course, all fiction also has some function as an escape from our own reality.) When I draw a distinction between what I call fantasy, set in a made-up world, and what I call supernatural fiction set in a world that's essentially this one (even though, obviously, it has fictional elements), the distinction for me isn't between escapism vs. relevance. It's more a subject-matter/setting taxonomy: with the former, a writer has a whole different set of problems and challenges (involving the creation of an entire new world), plus a different literary tradition and set of tropes.

LeAnn, a lot of people, including serious critics (Anthony Boucher was one) use "fantasy" for ANY fiction that involves magic; so your college teacher wasn't way out in left field. :-) (Though I'd say The Mouse That Roared would be a stretch; far-out and improbable humor isn't the same thing as magic!) I draw a distinction, but that's just me.

Whether they're set in this world or an invented one, all fictions that involve the supernatural, as do both the Harry Potter series and LOTR, DO share that basic commonality, which sets them apart from those that don't. If we think of fiction as being like a tree, they grow from the same big branch (I'd say it forks along the way). Something like The Yiddish Policeman's Union (from what I've read about it) grows from a different branch altogether --though they'd both be on the "speculative fiction" side of the tree. Personally, I think of alternate world fiction (if the world doesn't involve magic) as a branch of science fiction. Again, just me!

Werner, I almost think we also read Twain's The Celebrated Jumping Frog of Calaveras County in my college course, but when I looked up the synopsis for that story I couldn't believe that I'd remembered that one right.

By the way, The Eyre Affair, although set in an alternate universe, really doesn't feel like science fiction. Although there are DNA clones of extinct animals (Thursday Next has a pet dodo, for example), and the use of discarded technology options (as in steampunk, the method of air travel is by zeppelin), Thursday Next's ability to enter into the narrative of Jane Eyre using her uncle Mycroft's "invention" smacks of magic more than believable science (also, she runs into a Japanese woman who had developed years before the ability to enter into narrative through her own natural abilities). And, in Thursday Next's "alternate universe," characters from books routinely escape their fictional constraints to run around the "real world" much as Greek gods run around in mythology. In fact, the rules of this alternate universe seem to allow for phenomena that would fall into the supernatural or magical in our own real universe. (So, though not exactly Tolkien's Middle Earth, more fantasy than science fiction.)

No wonder Fforde had a terrible time getting published. I don't know where he's shelved in the library or sold in a bookstore.

I get that Werner, I was simply commenting on my own take here. While many Fantasy books have a great deal of relevance to me that's often a secondary consideration. I've read many books by people who's worldview and beliefs differ from mine 180 degrees, but I can still enjoy the story...sometimes. :)

Well, LeeAnn since Science Fiction and Fantasy are usually shelved together I start there, but you're right. I've seen Fforde shelved with the romance. Often there are bleed overs in the "horror" genre to...book stores seem at a loss as how to shelve a lot of books. That is I suppose a consequence of of having to fit every book into a category.

This book is frankly fantasy much like Jim Butcher's Dresden books or Aaronovith's fantasy. These take place in a version of the world we live in where everything "is as it is" with a deeper reality that goes on out of sight of the "mundane population". This one does it very well to. It's a world we can get involved in with characters that seem like "people" or "folks" if you prefer. Their problems and dangers are of an arcane nature but still have to be dealt with. They know there are things, places and people that are better avoided and so on.

LeAnn, your comment made me think of Sir Arthur Clarke's famous observation, to the effect that a sufficiently advanced technology would seem like magic to those who didn't understand it --though, of course, it wouldn't actually BE magic. In the realm of "soft" SF, where the writer is only limited by his/her own imagination and doesn't have to believably explain how any of these devices or processes work, it's a lot easier to achieve seemingly "magical" effects than it would be in the real world. :-) The difference from fantasy is sometimes more in the mindset and worldview of the writer/readers than in the actual effects themselves.

I've got The Eyre Affair in one of my to-read piles. Luckily, I don't shelve novels by genre; and on Goodreads, I can use multiple shelves! :-)

Werner wrote: "LeAnn, your comment made me think of Sir Arthur Clarke's famous observation, to the effect that a sufficiently advanced technology would seem like magic to those who didn't understand it --though, ..."

Yes, I remember that comment. Still, there is a place where it's very hard to tell. After all, a magic ring that enables children to "wish" themselves somewhere else in the real world (Half Magic) might just be a device that uses teleportation and speech recognition.

Yes, Leann --we might paraphrase Clarke by saying that a sufficiently advanced system of magic might be confused, by stubbornly materialistic Muggles, with very advanced naturalistic super-science, though of course it wouldn't BE super-science. :-) And seriously, there are books that are so genre-bending that the lines do get very blurred.

Mike, since this thread's been quiet for awhile, I'm going to go ahead and post the link to your review: http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/... . Folks have had time to get further into the book by now, and you don't give any spoilers in your review, anyway!

Below, I'm also posting links to a couple of more critical reviews, from outside our group, which I thought raised issues that might spark more discussion. Warning --the first review uses spoiler tags in one place, but both of them (especially the second) have unhidden content that could be a spoiler for some readers, depending on how far you've read or how little you want to know ahead of time!
http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/...
http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/...

Okay. I like the book, not sure if it got much interest or if just nobody has had much to say. LOL

I'm being tentative because I don't know where everyone is in reading and I'm afraid I'm too distracted these days to be as careful as I should be with my comments and questions.

Werner, I'll take a look at those reviews when I get a chance.

Sounds good, LeAnn!

If you're concerned just post under a "spoiler tag". If you haven't used one before the instructions for that and other "stuff" like italics, underlining , striking out and so on are under the (some html is ok) header above ^.

Mike, thanks for that pointer! I already knew "some html" from back in the day when I maintained a Web page when Java and Flash were only the twinkle in some developer's eye. But I didn't remember a "spoiler" tag!

One thing I'll say, which isn't very helpful for a discussion about Fated, is that I preferred Storm Front a bit over it.

In both cases, there's something appealing to me about the loner who does the right thing even if it gets him in trouble most of the time.

I said basically the same in another thread (there's a Dresden group with a thread called 'What to read while you wait for the next Harry Dresden book"). The Dresden series is my favorite Urban Fantasy series, but I think these are my "second favorites", :), at least so far...

So I looked at the reviews. One reviewer disliked the "sexism" and the other thought a diviner should be able to foretell what someone else is going to say (among other issues with the believability of the story).

I don't know what to say about the sexism complaint. I guess I don't see it. There are male and female characters who are dark and that seemed about equal in number. (view spoiler)[I didn't really think about Alex's three other apprentice companions in terms of gender and strength, but if I had to assign strength, I would have said a male and a female ended up the strongest from the group given who survived the apprenticeship. One could argue that Alex isn't entirely balanced after escaping Richard -- he lives on the fringes of magical society after all and has nightmares -- and the most villainous characters are men. I think anyone reading this for sexism is already biased toward finding it. (hide spoiler)]

As for the abilities of a diviner, I thought Jacka handled that pretty well. Alex's limited abilities to see the future make sense if you accept that there are any number of probable futures based on decision points. That seems to explain why he couldn't read minds or predict what someone would say -- those aren't really decision points.

From a pragmatic standpoint, I believe that he wouldn't have enough time to "know" what someone would say anyway in the situation. How someone chooses between options seems more believable than being able to predict the exact words someone would say. It also seems as though Alex's powers of divination are limited to analyzing a single actor in a given situation, probably also because he doesn't have infinite time in which to analyze all the probabilities. Having a mage whose abilities are limited makes for the best storytelling.

(view spoiler)[As for the second review and the complaint about Alex always returning to his apartment or taking Luna to the ball, I have to say that I felt the same way. He seemed to be inviting attack. And his use of an air elemental was also a little too convenient. (hide spoiler)]

The air elemental gets filled out (I won't say more because of spoilers). As for Sexism I don't see it, but there was a reviewer who got positively livid over the Dresden books because of sexism (Harry's proclivity to be protective toward women. He admits that it's not PC and knows he dare not try to protect the women characters [Murphy and some of the other regulars]). The reviewer saw it as sexist even though it was written as a character trait making Harry a bit old fashioned. Things like this hit different people different ways. If a person is bothered, then they're bothered. I don't see what was referred to in the Jacka book(s). Just me.