Bright Young Things discussion

Welcome to July's group read of Kim by Rudyard Kipling.

Enjoy!

Has anyone started this? I read a few pages at the library to see what I would think. So far it was OK, but I think the footnotes are annoying.

We have this, so I may try and read it, but I'm not sure yet...

I'm hoping to join in for the month

I'm going to start this weekend, I have no idea what to expect.

I have started it but so far it is slow going. I think I get tripped up by the unfamiliar Indian names and places.

I've flicked through my copy and I'm a little daunted by the 3 page glossary and 2 pages of place names. It makes me think there will be a lot of unfamiliar words to me, also my copy doesn't reference these notes in the text which will make things even harder. I'm beginning to slightly regret this choice and I haven't even started, I'll give it a good go though.

I got Kim out of the library but just wasn't in the mood for it so took it back.

That said, the reviews are generally very positive and, for those six BYTers who voted for it, and anyone else who is attracted to reading it, I suspect it will be a very enjoyable book.

I also had a look on Wikipedia to get an idea of the plot - that can be worth doing if you're planning on reading it and you want to know what's going on. Admittedly there would be no surprises however I think the charm of the book will be mainly in the writing, and the evocation of India and the era.

Here's to a great discussion.

Susan wrote: "I was listening to a R4 podcast the other day and they were talking about choosing books from the BYT era and there was almost a resentment against choosing Maugham. I feel he is considered old style now, very out of fashion, and yet his themes are universal."

I was just reflecting on how Rudyard Kipling, author of our fiction choice, is yet another who once enjoyed enormous popularity - one of the most famous people in the UK at one time - and is now deeply unfashionable. Far more so than WSM I would suggest.

As well as being an enormously popular writer Rudyard Kipling also won the Nobel Prize for Literature. Amazing eh?

Yesterday I read Orwell's essay on Kipling, which was interesting, though quite scathing. It addressed how popular authors go in and out of fashion and how they're perceived as either heroes or villains. It was probably good preparation for this book.

Isn't Kipling still the youngest recipient of the Nobel Prize for literature?

^ Yes Pink, well according to Google from info dated 2009....


To date, the youngest Literature Laureate is Rudyard Kipling, best known for The Jungle Book, who was 42 years old when he was awarded the Literature Prize in 1907

Surprising that nobody younger has won since, though I think Nobel Prizes for literature seem to be awarded for life achievement of work nowadays.

I found this site which was quite interesting.

http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prize...

I've read the first four chapters of this and am really enjoying it so far. Great descriptions of the Grand Trunk Road and the train ride. I've never been to India but the writing here makes it sound like the mental picture I've developed from books, films, and my daughter's experiences there. I'm fascinated by the mix of religions and cultures that Kipling writes about.

The book was in the children's section of my library, but all the philosophy seems a bit advanced for a kid to understand...

Jennifer W wrote: "Has anyone started this? I read a few pages at the library to see what I would think. So far it was OK, but I think the footnotes are annoying."

I'm reading the Modern Library edition which has all the notes in the back. I'm reading the notes for each chapter before i start that chapter. That way I get acquainted with unfamiliar terms right away and don't have to keep flipping back and forth between text and notes. It's making it easier for me.

Barbara, I wish the notes in my edition were organised like that. Unfortunately the terms are just in alphabetical order, so I'll have to flick and forth as I'm reading when I hit a word I don't know. Going to start as soon as I get off here :)

Good news, I've started reading and I'm really enjoying it. The first 15 pages were very slow and I thought I'd hate the book, but then I started to get into the story and language. I'm still only on chapter 4, about page 50, so quite a bit to go yet. The foreign words are in italics, so I can look them up easily enough in the notes. Plus I found chapter summaries at the very back of my edition, so I read these short paragraphs after each chapter, so check that I'm understanding the main points.

I finished chapter 1 today and I think I'll like the book all right. I'm looking forward to the "road trip" aspect of the book and also that Kim is just a pawn in other men's plans.

This book really surprised me. I knew it was supposed to be a coming-of-age story, set in India, but I had no idea it was going to have so much spiritual content. I suppose I imagined something like one of those old swashbuckling adventure movies about the Khyber Pass. Of course, there WAS some adventure in the book, but it really seemed more about Kim finding his own personal way in life. The relationship of the streetwise boy and the old lama was quite lovely.

Kipling's descriptions were colorful and really made the scenery and characters come to life. I liked how Kim had such an open spirit and could live among both Sahibs and Indians and was comfortable with a variety of religious views.

Occasionally I felt Kipling's imperialism and feelings of superiority as a white man come through, but for the most part, I thought he was positive about Indian culture and far less jingoistic than I expected.

I'm glad I finally got around to reading this.

It was interesting to compare the lama's desire to escape the Wheel of Life with Waugh's description of life at the center of the Wheel in Decline and Fall...

^ Very interesting. Thanks Barbara.

I felt the same as Barbara - the book wasn't what I expected; it was much better. I also felt that Kipling's imperialistic attitudes were there, but they didn't seem to colour the book the way I thought they might. It's the only book I have read by Kipling apart from Stalky & Co., which I read when I was about 11. I would like to read more.

Incidentally, although I knew that Kipling had spent some years in the States, I didn't know he was a friend of Teddy Roosevelt. I have just read a fascinating article by Christopher Benfey in the New York Review of Books about the relationship between the two and how they exemplified very different types of imperialism. If anyone is interested, here's the link:
http://www.nybooks.com/blogs/nyrblog/...

Cool information.

BTW I went to get a copy of the book and thought I'd start reading -- and I don't own a copy. Guess to the library or book store I'll go.

There is a free copy Kathy on Goodreads ebooks. Though, you've probably worked that out already. : )

Fascinating discussion so far and l've just started reading this. Thanks for the article Mike. I can see what the writer is saying, and makes an interesting point, but I'm sure many will not see a positive side to modern imperialism, charitable work, NGOs and foreign businesses, which sometimes uproots individuals from their land, encourages 'brain drain', creates dependancy of bad governments through debt, poisons the water supply in the name of modernisation and globalisation.

The author does note criticisms of American policy. American foreign policy abroad is highly imperialistic and has resulted in extreme ideologies taking root, backing coups, trying to kill democratically elected people, e.g. Hugo Chavez, U.S. back organisation tried to drop him from a helicopter, and cause a coup.

However, I take the author's point that it does depend on your point of view. : )

Orwell gives some quite interesting notes and interpretation on some of Kipling's poetry, from http://gaslight.mtroyal.ca/Orwell-B.htm

'And yet the "Fascist" charge has to be answered, because the first clue to any understanding of Kipling, morally or politically, is the fact that he was not a Fascist. He was further from being one than the most humane or the most "progressive" person is able to be nowadays. An interesting instance of the way in which quotations are parroted to and fro without any attempt to look up their context or discover their meaning is the line from "Recessional," "Lesser breeds without the Law." This line is always good for a snigger in pansy-left circles. It is assumed as a matter of course that the "lesser breeds" are "natives," and a mental picture is called up of some pukka sahib in a pith helmet kicking a coolie. In its context the sense of the line is almost the exact opposite of this. The phrase "lesser breeds" refers almost certainly to the Germans, and especially the pan-German writers, who are "without the Law" in the sense of being lawless, not in the sense of being powerless. The whole poem, conventionally thought of as an orgy of boasting, is a denunciation of power politics, British as well as German. Two stanzas are worth quoting (I am quoting this as politics, not as poetry):


If, drunk with sight of power, we loose
Wild tongues that have not Thee in awe,
Such boastings as the Gentiles use,
Or lesser breeds without the Law —
Lord God of hosts, be with us yet,
Lest we forget — lest we forget!

For heathen heart that puts her trust
In reeking tube and iron shard,
All valiant dust that builds on dust,
And guarding, calls not Thee to guard,
For frantic boast and foolish word —
Thy mercy on Thy People, Lord!'

My edition like Barbara's has interesting footnotes too.

Liking your comment Roisin.

I'm still only half way through the book, as I'm taking it one chapter at a time. I am liking it and I'm not finding it as problematic as I expected. Still a way to go yet though and I have my concerns for Kim.

Pink is correct that Orwell was quite scathing of Kipling, but he is clearly trying to be fair when thinks necessary. Interesting...

Ta! Well I started reading the book and wasn't going to read the intro by Said until after, however I've started reading the intro, which has some fascinating information.

As for the story it is engaging so far. What find interesting to is that Kim is white he hasn't chosen a Indian as his main character. If Kim had been Indian I suspect that might have changed the story.

Those that do not have the intro to the penguin edn, here it is:

http://jan.ucc.nau.edu/~sj6/SaidIntro...

Thanks for posting the Said introduction, I don't have that edition. I'll read it later, but I find it very interesting that they chose him to write the intro for this book. I suspect it gives a different look at things.

From what I have read so far, he analyses the story and connects it to Kipling's beliefs. One expects it to be an anti-imperialistic rant, but instead you get a fascinating, well thought look at the things that influenced the ideas and how some characters are represented.

^ You must be breaking off from the book every few minutes to post here Roisin - very impressive multi-tasking

:-))

Sounds good Roisin, I think I'll read it once I've finished the book.

Nigeyb-hehehe! I'm rather impressed myself. : ))

Yes do Pink! I'm looking forward to reading the rest of the book.

Orwell's essay makes some very good points and he does acknowledge that Kipling was writing at a time when imperial rule was the accepted way of governing the world. (There were independent dominions in the Commonwealth in Kipling's time, but the rulers were still white at the highest levels.) I'm not sure that Kipling was quite as naive as Orwell thinks in not seeing 'empire' as about wealth and exploitation though. Kipling would have been comparing imperial rule by the British Government with the earlier rule by the East India Company, which was about wealth and exploitation and led to the Indian Mutiny, he would have seen the colonial administration as better for the Indians without any sense that his attitude would later be seen as paternalistic and patronising.

Yes, good point Val. I think you are right.

When I read this as a child I saw it as an adventure story with added colour from the setting and some mystic bits I didn't really get. As an adult I am less interested in the story and got much more from the setting and mysticism.

I'm through chapter 4. I think the snarky old lady is my favorite character so far!

Yes, she is quite a colourful character, quite comical.

Last night I read to where Kim has come under the control of the army. It's not what I was hoping for. It also seems like, so far, Kipling is more critical of the Brits rather than the Indians. He is making Kim's time with the Brits very stifling. I hope he gets away soon.

Is he critical of the Brits? Kim feels stifled, yes. He is desperate to get out of his situation, but I'm not sure that Kipling is that critical of the British. There isn't a rash of revolutionary characters wanting to change the status quo.

Perhaps critical is too strong a word. He does not make Kim out to be a savage for having been raised by the Indians, whereas he does show a lot of empathy for him for being thrust into the "civilized" world where he is extremely uncomfortable and doesn't fit in. He doesn't fundamentally change who Kim is by taking him out of his element.

Ahh! I kind of see what you mean. Yes, the author does sympathetically show Kim's plight, but Kim is not threat in anyway. He is not a revolutionary, fighting for independence from the Brits.

...but I take your point. : )

Just to update...I'm still reading this but haven't picked it up in over a week. Not sure when I'll finish it, but I'll post my thoughts when I do.

One question for now. Is this actually a children's book? I really don't think of it as a book for children, even teens, at least not any more than other 'adult' fiction novels. I guess there doesn't seem to be any sex or violence in it (at least so far) but is this the only thing that makes it suitable for a younger audience? I'd say that older children are capable of reading and understanding the themes, to an extent, but I don't understand why it is marketed in the children's section. Is that how Kipling wrote the book?

I don't think I would consider this a children's book. It seems too philosophical. I don't think I would have enjoyed it as a child, or even a teenager.

A few years ago, I read Kipling's Just So Stories which I think are more geared towards children, but I didn't care for them much. I'm liking Kim a lot more.

Pink wrote: "I don't understand why it is marketed in the children's section. Is that how Kipling wrote the book? "

Very interesting question. I imagine it must be used for GSCE level English? The copy I got (but - ahem - didn't read) was from the children's section of the library.

Interesting. The copy I have was in the adult section of the library.