Classics and the Western Canon discussion

Hans Castorp’s first day at the International Sanatorium Berghof.

Ahhh.. This thread IS here. We have been so busy posting on the first two, I think it got buried. Maybe says something about time and space as Mann explores the concepts?

In terms of structure, it is interesting that Mann devotes, what, two chapters to Day 1 and the remaining five to the seven years Hans C. spends at Davos? Are there writers among us that can comment on that technique and its significance?

Seven is one of those so magical numbers overlaid with symbolism in at least Western culture. (Anyone know about Eastern?) It starts with its position as one of the prime numbers, i.e., a number that can be divided evenly only by 1 and itself. But why its choice here by Mann?

Were we reading about a seven-story mountain not so long ago?

Almost too embarrassed to ask this on-line (rather than go check), but was Purgatory seven stories? I had totally missed that allusion for Thomas Merton's The Seven Storey Mountain (I haven't read it). How dumb can one get?

Why is a week seven days?

Lily wrote: "Seven is one of those so magical numbers overlaid with symbolism in at least Western culture. "

And it is so here. Not only seven chapters, and another seven you mention which is perhaps a teeny spoiler but let it pass, but also seven tables in the dining hall. And wasn't Hans seven when his grandfather died, and maybe also his father? I'm not clear about the exact timing, but we are told that he lost all three "between his fifth and seventh years," so at the age of 7 he was an orphan. I wouldn't be surprised if we see more instances of seven as the work proceeds.

Laurele wrote: "Were we reading about a seven-story mountain not so long ago?"

Ah ha. The International Sanatorium as Purgatory? Where one's bodily sins are cleansed (or not)?

Thomas Mann mentioned that he had (among others) the fairy tale "Little Longnose" (or "Longnose the Dwarf") by Wilhelm Hauff in mind. German original title is "Zwerg Nase".

http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/86...

It is about young Jacob who is stolen from his family by a wicked witch and transformed to a dwarf with a long nose, and who serves in her household for seven years (together with hamsters and squirrels as cooking and cleaning personnel) without noticing that seven years pass by.

It was my favourite fairy tale when I was a child. Find some nice pictures on the story on this page (aren't the hamsters and squirrels cute?):
http://sankt-georg.schulen-hattingen....

Thorwald wrote: "Thomas Mann mentioned that he had (among others) the fairy tale "Little Longnose" (or "Longnose the Dwarf") by Wilhelm Hauff in mind. German original title is "Zwerg Nase".."

Here is one translation of the story:
http://digital.library.upenn.edu/wome...

Select The Dwarf's Nose from the contents.

Lily wrote: "Almost too embarrassed to ask this on-line (rather than go check), but was Purgatory seven stories? I had totally missed that allusion for Thomas Merton's
The Seven Storey Mountain
(I haven't ..."

Check the diagram here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purgatorio

A week is seven days because of Genesis 1 and 2: six days of creation and one day of rest. The French revolutionists tried to change the week to ten days, but even the horses could not handle it.

“7” No spoilers.

(view spoiler)[

I hadn’t noticed or even thought about “7” until I saw that Sue in post 64 wrote “It is, indeed, as if we have entered a magic place where the rules have shifted.”

Somewhere I read that Mann was called “the Sorcerer.”

And as pointed out here… what a tremendous number of 7s. I’m sure I’ve missed some too.

(1) From Chapter 1, I managed to force Everyman’s cigars into the number 7:

I hadn’t noticed the “Two days travel separated the youth from his own world.” (L-P 3-4) until Everyman had pointed that out. Good catch. So 21 days + 2 days (going there) + 2 days (return trip) + ?? another 3 days perhaps???

Here’s my thinking: When we first see HC he is 2 days from home. Then it does seem as though he still has to travel most of THAT day, arriving at Davos-Dorf at 8:00 pm. (L-P 5).

So that would be 1 extra day on the trip up and 1 extra day on the trip down.

Joachim is there to meet HC, BUT Hans Castrop had NOT EXPECTED to get off the train there. “’But I’m not there yet!’ said Hans Castorp, taken aback, and still seated” (L-P 5). Joachim kinda picks him up early. A shorter route to the sanitarium then HC had expected.

Therefore, Hans Castorp might well have included that one additional day’s supply of cigars. Hans Castorp would not have wanted to risk not having enough cigars. Therefore, 21 days of vacation + [2+1] days for the journey up = [2+1] days for the journey back down + 1 more day---just to be sure there would be enough cigars since HC hadn’t expected Joachim to pick him up “early”= 28 days. 200 divided by 28 = 7.1


(2) As you pointed out, “seven tables”


(3) From Chapter 2:

The plate that went with the christening bowl: “On the back, engraved [play on words with “grave”?] in a variety of scripts, were the names of its successive owners, seven in number” (L-P 22).

(4) As you pointed out, “the seven-year-old child” (24)


(5) at Grandfather’s funeral. The candelabra. They traditionally have seven branches. (L-P 27)


(6) From Chapter 3:

“Joachim shook his head. A little later he took the thermometer out of his mouth, look at it, and said: ‘Yes, when you watch it, the time, it goes very slowly. I quite like measuring, four times a day; for then you know what a minute—or seven of them [that’s how long it takes him to take his temperature] –actually amounts to” (L-P 65-66).

(7) My favorite: Hans Castrop is put in room number 34. 3+4=7.

(hide spoiler)]

Adelle wrote: "(7) My favorite: Hans Castrop is put in room number 34. 3+4=7."

Good catch! Did Mann chuckle when he wrote that?

H.C. no longer cares for his cigar and is feeling palpitations... altitude or ? (i.e. the body putting on such airs with no connection to the soul!) ha! H.C. seems to be taking well to certain aspects of the way of horizontallers.
Some of the language is quite delightful...I have not heard the word "zounds" for ever so long (not sure if all our translations would have that word) and Settembrini's statement that "curiosity is another of the prescriptive rights of the shadows" is interesting. Settembrini is a curious fellow indeed....

Sue wrote: Some of the language is quite delightful.

There are a couple of phrases that took my breath away so far.

"Fluctuating permanence"... He goes on to amplify what he means by that but the phrase is beautiful.

The second phrase that stopped me cold also in The Baptismal Bowl is: " 'license of old age' the kind of carelessness that age either consciously and merrily permits itself or brings with it, cloaked in dignified oblivion."

I view my parents and in-laws in a new way having reflected on "the license of old age".

What have I missed so far?

Sue wrote: ".Settembrini is a curious fellow indeed.... "

Isn't he though. I'm quite drawn to him myself. Sigh. 'Though I suspect that he might not actually be a good influence. But so engaging. So entertaining.

Mann has the man with the limp at the beginning of MM, *** as Dante had the man with the limp at the beginning of Inferno. info from next reading section: (view spoiler)[ And then Settembrini clearing alludes to the Virgil of Dante. (LOVED IT!)

But then...the reason for my sigh...is that I remember there was a scene in Inferno...Dante had been listening, quite engaged, to somebody in Hell talking. It was so interesting. So engaging. And Virgil became angry said something like "to have a taste for talk like this is vulgar."

I wonder if Settembrini might not fall into that category. All that great gossip--with a little edge to it. So fun to listen to. But...not sure how S is going to be a good influence on HC. (hide spoiler)]

Btw. I googled "seven in Italian." Answer: Sette. Cool, eh?

*** EDIT ADDED: Just thoughts/musings. (view spoiler)[ The man with the limp. That does seem to be there for meaning. (for me).

I believe that Mann wants me to look for meaning. Early on Hans Castorp tells Joachim "my face burns shockingly--just feel it!!" (12)

The narrative continues, "This demand was entirely foreign to the young man's nature--" [those dashes, I believe are SO important; they often say more than the sentence which contains them]

Here's Hans Castorp. A young man who doesn't go by just a first name (too familiar) who doesn't even like to shake hands. Here he is actually demanding --- not asking, but demanding -- that Joachim physically FEEL his face.

Hans Castorp, it seems, realizes that something is wrong with him. He seems to be asking Joachim to tell him what the problem is. A page or two earlier, Hans Castorp had been talking about the air. On one level, HC seems to be suggesting to Joachim that there is something about the air there above the tree line that has physically caused his face to burn.

Joachim responds, "That is the air -- it doesn't mean anything " (12).

On a different level, I believe Joachim is telling HC that the air is just the air ... and doesn't mean anything in regards to the burning of Hans Castorp's face. Where then IS the meaning?

Hans Castorp, it seems to me, will have to dig deep within himself to find the meaning.




(view spoiler)[





Because of the placement --- near the beginning -- as Dante had the limp at the beginning. And we see in Chapter 3 that Mann references Dante and Virgil.

Mann has pointed out that spiritual/moral issues can manifest themselves as physical issues. Dante was limping -- (I think) -- because of his spiritual/moral issues.

But here's why I'm adding thoughts. I'm trying to read the Bible this year in Spanish. And this morning I was reading Psalms 73.

"Ciertamente bueno es Dios para con Israel, para con los limpios de Corazon!"

I couldn't help but notice that word, "limpios."

And I wondered if there might be a connection between "limp" and "limpios."

Limpios/limpiar in Spanish means to clean...or to cleanse...or to purify.

Maybe? one level of meaning here is to suggest (like Dante) that when we are limping spiritually/morally, we need to cleanse or purify (limpiar) in order to get better --- morally and physically.

As I read it, you know, that's why Hans Castorp (?Europe?) is there at the International Sanatorium. He hadn't realized that he was so ill.

I do agree with Thorwald. Hans Castorp's character -- once he realizes he's ill --- can grow.

(hide spoiler)] (hide spoiler)]

Lily wrote: "Adelle wrote: "(7) My favorite: Hans Castrop is put in room number 34. 3+4=7."

Good catch! Did Mann chuckle when he wrote that?"

:)

Adelle wrote: "Btw. I googled "seven in Italian." Answer: Sette. Cool, eh? "

Settembrini: From Italian "settembre" = September.

Ending -ini is diminutive and plural.
Cf. http://italian.about.com/cs/grammar/h...

So "Settembrini" = "the small Septembers".

What ever this means ...?!

September was the 7th month in the Roman calendar, therefore the 7 in the name.

! Of course! I should have thought of that. Didn't.

Thx Thorwald.

For what it is or isn't worth, September is also the beginning of fall, the season before winter. Whether there is any symbolism carrying over into MM??

Since we are playing with seven, let us also keep in mind those seven ledges of Dante's Purgatorio:

First terrace (the proud)
Second terrace (the envious)
Third terrace (the wrathful)
Fourth terrace (the slothful)
Fifth terrace (the covetous)
Sixth terrace (the gluttonous)
Seventh terrace (the lustful)

These correspond to the "seven deadly sins"?

"Beginning in the early 14th century, the popularity of the seven deadly sins as a theme among European artists of the time eventually helped to ingrain them in many areas of Catholic culture and Catholic consciousness in general throughout the world. One means of such ingraining was the creation of the mnemonic "SALIGIA" based on the first letters in Latin of the seven deadly sins: superbia, avaritia, luxuria, invidia, gula, ira, acedi."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_de...

"The main entrance was on the south-west side of the white building, the central portion of which was a storey higher than the wings, and crowned by a turret with a roof of slatecoloured tin."

Laurele wrote: "Were we reading about a seven-story mountain not so long ago?"

Settembrini refers to the doctors as "Minos and Rhadamanthus" when he asks HC how many months he has been saddled with. "Our smallest unit of time is the month. We measure on a grand scale -- it is one of the privileges of shades."

Thomas wrote: "Laurele wrote: "Were we reading about a seven-story mountain not so long ago?"

Settembrini refers to the doctors as "Minos and Rhadamanthus" ..."

Aaah, "Minos" and "mountain", now I see another connection:

In Plato's Laws the dialogue participants climb up a mountain on Crete while talking. It is the way to the cave of Zeus where king Minos received the laws from Zeus!

(Remember that according to legend the founder of Islam also climbed up a mountain to a cave where he received the laws of god, i.e. the Quran.)

As we learn from Plato's Gorgias, Minos and Radamanthys were considered to be the judges over the dead in the afterlife.

Thorwald wrote: "As we learn from Plato's Gorgias, Minos and Radamanthys were considered to be the judges over the dead in the afterlife..."

Yes, and we've also met them in the past few group readings here: Homer, Virgil, and Dante. It seems we can't escape them!

On an entirely different topic, I was really struck by all of the physical descriptions of apparently minor characters in this chapter. And then there's HC deeply offended by the blatant sexuality of the couple nextdoor. And the woman who can whistle from her pneumothorax (really??). The physical body is really important, not just as something that dies, but also as something that lives and something that, as with Hans's grandfather's body, is normally avoided or covered up, but apparently not here in the sanatorium. By the end of the chapter, Hans's heartbeat is too rapid and he's stumbling ("falling ill"?) as if his body, too, is failing him. I don't know what to make of it all, except to say that it's clearly important...

And then there's this curious quotation from Joachim: "I sometimes think that illness and death aren't really serious matters, that it's all more like loafing around, and that, strictly speaking, things are serious only down below in real life."

Sue wrote: "H.C. no longer cares for his cigar and is feeling palpitations... altitude or ? (i.e. the body putting on such airs with no connection to the soul!) ha! H.C. seems to be taking well to certain as..."

The cigar thing is very interesting, and I think if we had the energy to study it carefully would be instructive.

Even as a schoolboy (? or later? not clear) he would take a leisurely Sunday breakfast with Joachim, have the old port that had been prescribed for him, and "then lean back in his chair and puff devotedly on his cigar." (Woods 31). Still in the section "At the Tienappels" we read the suggestion that "for him, work was simply something that stood in the way of the unencumbered enjoyment of a Maria Mancini." Then early in the "Teasing/Viaticum..." section we have the paean to smoking, "I can actually say that I only eat so that I can smoke" (55) and "a day without tobacco, that would be...a totally wasted day."

But now, suddenly there are moments when the cigar satisfies, and others where he finds it failing to please or even disgusting, and throws it away. These episodes have to mean something, but I'm not yet sure just what. (I suspect that this pattern may continue, and its meaning may at some point emerge more clearly. Or maybe others have already figured it out?)

Kathy wrote: "On an entirely different topic, I was really struck by all of the physical descriptions of apparently minor characters in this chapter. ... The physical body is really important, "

Nice point. And Mann not only describes the minor characters, but he has the trick, as Shakespeare did, of being able to take us into their characters with a few lines of dialogue. These minor characters aren't just background, but they seem integral to HC's experience.

At 24, Kathy, I agree. Feel free to disagree with my take.

No spoilers. Longish. Maybe off-track. (view spoiler)[
That sentence: "this curious quotation from Joachim: "I sometimes think that illness and death aren't really serious matters, that it's all more like loafing around, and that, strictly speaking, things are serious only down below in real life."

Two levels of meaning here, I think.

(1) Joachim is suggesting that due to the curious way in which time passes on the mountain...and, as J says, “Good Lord, they are so FREE—I mean, they are so young, and time is nothing to them, and then they may die—“ (51) that the people in the sanatorium are in some ways less serious. That it is the people down below in real life---back in Hamburg, etc., who take life so very seriously.

(2) From a psychoanalytical point of view, Joachim is suggesting (I think) that the it's not our surface lives and deaths that are truly important. At least…how good can your life be if it’s spiritually/morally/psychologically messed up? Mann had in an earlier chapter that passage about one’s spiritual/moral illness/emptiness taking on physcial manifestations. So I think on some level his book must deal with the spirit. Indeed, as Settembrini himself says, “Somebody must have some espirit” (59). Maybe Hans Castorp can discover his.

What's really important is find what is in our unconsciousness ("below"). Hence the psychoanalysis Joachim has already mentioned. Along the lines, I think, that Jeremy posted on: Hans Castorp currently lacks self-awareness.

Hans Castorp was shocked when Hermine "whistled." Joachim said to him, "You looked rooted to the spot" (50).

Yet again Mann use of that word "rooted." The roots of our consciousness are in our unconscious, "down below" our surface consciousness.

"These subliminal aspects of everything that happens to us …in dealing with expressions of the unconscious… are the almost invisible roots of our conscious thoughts" (From Man and His Symbols, by Carl G. Jung)

Another thought. Settembrini says to Hans Castorp: "Zounds! You don't say? Then your are not one of us? You are well, you are but a guest here, like Odysseus in the kingdom of the shades? You are bold indeed, thus to descend into these depths peopled by the vacant and the idle [loafing?] dead--" (58).


Hans Castorp, like Odysseus, won’t have to stay.
Hans Castorp, like Odysseus, will descend (Hans Castorp…will ? descend [hopefully] into his unconscious…fix his spirit…return to the world a better man…maybe even be that hero Everyman put forward as a possibility.

Mmm. I forgot. WHY did Odysseus descend into Hades?

(hide spoiler)]

At 25 Jeremy wrote: "He can't understand why he can't enjoy his cigar

Good points.

Two quotes.

HC: “but when a man has a good cigar in his mouth a man is perfectly safe, nothing can touch him—literally” (48).

Since he says nothing can "literally" touch him---maybe? the cigar is some sort of talisman of Grandfather for him --- and as long as he has the cigar he won't be touched by the emotional pain in his life.


“You can be very miserable: I might be feeling perfectly wretched, for instance; but I could always stand it if I had my smoke” (49).

The CARE Hans Castrop puts into his tobaco.
Perhaps he is very miserable indeed. 7-8 cigars per day.

And he’s not smoking NOW. Or at least less and less. Maybe now he will have to feel his miserableness. ???
Maybe find out what's making him ill?

EDIT ADDED: Ah! Another appropriate quote. Hans then says, when his cigar doesn't taste right, “But what is the matter with me” (52)

Adelle wrote: "The CARE Hans Castrop puts into his tobaco.
Perhaps he is very miserable indeed. 7-8 cigars per day."

Then Mark Twain must have been really miserable. (22 cigars a day, reportedly.)

LOL!

Regarding the business aspect of the Internation Sanatorium Berghof.

No spoilers. Just possibly interesting background/sideground info.

(view spoiler)[

. “…near it stood a flag-pole, painted red-dish-brown, on which the flag fluttered open now and then on its cord. It was a fancy flag, green and white, with the caduceus, the emblem of healing, in the centre” (39).

Googled.

“The caduceus, the traditional symbol of Hermes featuring two snakes around an often winged staff, is often mistakenly used as a symbol of medicine instead of the Rod of Asclepius, especially in the United States of America. The two-snake caduceus design has ancient and consistent associations with commerce, eloquence, trickery, and negotiation”.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caduceus...



"The long-standing and abundantly attested historical associations of the caduceus with commerce, theft, deception, and death are considered by many to be inappropriate in a symbol used by those engaged in the healing arts. This has occasioned significant criticism of the use of the caduceus in a medical context.

“ As god of the high-road and the market-place Hermes was perhaps above all else the patron of commerce and the fat purse: as a corollary, he was the special protector of the traveling salesman. As spokesman for the gods, he not only brought peace on earth (occasionally even the peace of death), but his silver-tongued eloquence could always make the worse appear the better cause. From this latter point of view, would not his symbol be suitable for certain Congressmen, all medical quacks, book agents and purveyors of vacuum cleaners, rather than for the straight-thinking, straight-speaking therapeutist? As conductor of the dead to their subterranean abode, his emblem would seem more appropriate on a hearse than on a physician's car. ”
—Stuart L. Tyson, "The Caduceus", in The Scientific Monthly



“One Greek myth of origin of the caduceus is part of the story of Tiresias,[16] who found two snakes copulating and killed the female with his staff. Tiresias was immediately turned into a woman, and so remained until he was able to repeat the act with the male snake seven years later. This staff later came into the possession of the god Hermes, along with its transformative powers” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caduceus.

[see T.S. Eliot’s ‘The Waste Land’ from about this same post-WWI time period]

[also, since Settembrini has brought up Odysseus's descent into Hades, I remember that Odysseus in Hades spoke with Tiresias]

(hide spoiler)]

Satana [Why is this section called that?][Thoughts on]

No spoilers.

(view spoiler)[

Google says: A possible reference to Satan. But then, why? Because of the hymn to the Devil Settembrini said his great master had written? Because Hans Castorp brings mentions the Devil? “

Settembrini saying, “all work IS hard, isn’t it, that deserves the name?”

Hans Castorp responding, “That’s true enough, God knows—or the Devil does” (59).
Is this an important line?

There is an entry in Wikipedia for “Satana:” “A word in Sinhala language which is used in Sri Lanka. The meaning of it is Battle.”

Is there going to be a battle within Hans Castorp between good and evil/ God and the Devil?

Settembrini says of Hofrat Behrens, “He’s a devil of a fellow, our Rhadamanthus!” (61).
Hofrat, says Settembrini, had invented the summer season’; “One must give the devil his due” (62). Settembrini praised “their acquisitive talents with mordant sarcasm” (63). And I think back to the caduceus and business .

And then, too, going back further, there wasn’t just a christening bowl and a model ship and cigars in Grandfather’s etagere; “right at the bottom a rat-trap” (21). Google tells me that the German word for “rat” can also be “rat.” Is Mann early on hinting to us that the things that Hans Castorp treasures may be in danger? Is Mann giving us advance notice that Hofrat Behrens might be a rat?

Just wondering.





Possibly of note: Settembrini says, “Let us go together, our way is the same: [then he quotes Dante]: the path on the right that shall lead to the halls of the mightiest Dis” (62). When Hans Castorp and Joachim began their walk “the way they took—it was they only one they could take—rose by gentle ascent to the left” (47). Therefore, in approaching or returning to the sanatorium one would be going downward and to the right---just in the Inferno one descend and turned right to reach Dis.

(hide spoiler)]

At 7 Thorwald wrote: "(aren't the hamsters and squirrels cute?):


They are! They are! (The little animals reminded me of Redwall, which my daughter had so enjoyed.)

Thanks.

at 7, Thorwald wrote: "without noticing that seven years pass by.


So...time had that Magic Mountain quality there too.

At 8 Everyman posted a link: from the English translation:

"What strange things dreams are!" said he.

Steven wrote: "The second phrase that stopped me cold also in The Baptismal Bowl is: " 'license of old age' the kind of carelessness that age either consciously and merrily permits itself or brings with it, cloaked in dignified oblivion."


What a fabulous sentence.

Life on the Mountain
(view spoiler)[People on the mountain live under the shadow of death. But are encouraged (even forced) to go on like everything were normal. And mostly they succeed in doing so: they chatter and eat (a lot) and are as superficial as anyone. Or even more, because they have no normal worries and occupations. Joachim declares that people on the mountain don't take anything seriously.

Still, they can't completely ignore the fear. Some, like poor mr. Blumenkohl (Cauliflower, why?) and mrs. Tous-les-deux grieve in silence. While just now and then somebody freaks out: poor Barbara Hujus, and that brazen mr. Albin, threatening suicide. Joachim abhors such undisciplined (uncultured) behaviour, but HC thinks one should have a special respect for the dying.

What is more, HC gets weird feelings imagining the freedom derived from the approach of death. Later he will have exactly the same experience dreaming about mrs. Chauchat. Something in him longs to throw off the yoke of conventional culture. He may be disturbed hearing his Russian neighbours' lovemaking, but he is not as inhibited as Joachim.

Dr. Behrens seems to think that HC would be an easy patient, better than Joachim (who can't take his mind off the lowland and the army). But the mountain puts HC in fact under a lot of stress. Other than Joachim, he takes life more serious here. He is not satisfied anymore with his infantile addiction to Maria Mancini. On the verge of a nervous breakdown, HC is advised by his new acquaintance Settembrini to take the first train home. (hide spoiler)]

A table for good Russians and one for bad Russians.

We have yet to find out what is the reason for this division on the mountain. But often the good one are those who want to become less 'barbarian', more like 'us'. While the bad ones cling to their own ways. Still, sometimes our sentiments get the better of us, and we let 'deep' Russians like Dostoyevsky or Solzhenitsyn figure among the good ones.

Wendel wrote: "Life on the Mountain
People on the mountain live under the shadow of death. But are encouraged (even forced) to go on like everything were normal. And mostly they succeed in doing so: they chatter..."

When I read this or that posting here, I have the feeling that people read a totally different book than I do :-)

Many put stress on the desease, on illness and death. Somehow I must have missed this topic while reading ... well, not factually of course, but for me it looks like decoration only, whereas the important part of the story is something else: The development of Hans Castorp.

Or is it that I as a reader am so close to Hans Castorp who does not take so much notice of this all, at least on the surface, and I identify myself too much with him? Or is it that I just take the freedom like Settembrini to ignore it because I don't like it? It is so necrophile ...

Thorwald wrote: "Wendel wrote: "Life on the Mountain ...but the important part of the story is something else: The development of Hans Castorp. ."

Thorwald, you already read the book, but we can only take one step at a time. And isn't it the peculiar quality of life on the mountain that sets HC's development in motion?

Wendel wrote: "Thorwald, you already read the book, but we can only take one step at a time. And isn't it the peculiar quality of life on the mountain that sets HC's development in motion? "

Hm, I am only some chapters ahead.

I think the story could take place in a hotel, too. I think of "Evil under the Sun" by Agatha Christie :-) There are strange characters, too, united in an extraordinary situation, and development is possible.

So far I have not understood why the setting of illness and death is so important to the story.

What about Katherine Anne Porter's Ship of Fools? It has been a long time since I read it, so I'm not really making an argument for a connection, just throwing it out there... another big cast of somewhat odd characters isolated together on a ship (mountain). This is a great, classic set-up for many stories. Christie's And Then There Were None, too, as I recall (an English country manor). We could go on and on...

Adelle wrote: "At 24, Kathy, I agree. Feel free to disagree with my take.

No spoilers. Longish. Maybe off-track.
That sentence: "this curious quotation from Joachim: "I sometimes think that illness an..."

Hmmm, interesting psychological reading. I think I took a more naturalist approach to the quotation, at least at this point, as if what Joachim is saying is very detached, almost as if spoken from beyond death, telling us that very little really matters at all. We spend our lives "down there" so very seriously, and we are misguided to do so. [All that really matters is a good cigar? ;)]

Thorwald, others.

I DO think that this is going to be a book about the growth of the character Hans Castorp. Similar to Jeremy's view (I think) in post 43: {Symbolic of a sick and dying society, maybe? This is indeed the story of Hans' growth and maturation, but that occurs during a specific time and place.]

I just happen to believe that his growth will be a result of his psychological growth.

And I DO realize that my posts aren't concise.
And I DO realize that I do a good deal of reading, as it were, between the lines, or just under the surface.

I believe Mann intends for me to. I believe that is why there are those tantalizing little details....to prompt me as a reader to think.

And yes, my thinking may be well off the mark.

And because my posts run lengthy---that's the only way I can think the book through, and because my reading may run counter to the readings --- the totally legitimate readings --- of others, I have been trying to remember to enclose longer or more ... questionable ... posts in "spoiler" mood so that people can easily skip them should they choose.

Ah, yes, Kathy, I really do lean towards that sort of reading. But I don't wish to influence people away from their own readings/interpretations.

I am really loving this book.

Adelle ...

You try a lot of possibilities of interpretation and thus you have a great chance to find something we others could not find, because we did not try ...

Adelle wrote: "Satana [Why is this section called that?]

"

Perhaps Settembrini is a rebel angel? Mann has a bit of fun with the comparison --

"Yes, yes, yes" [Settembrini] repeated, hissing the s all three times...

"We are creatures who have fallen to great depths, are we not, lieutenant?"

"Sarcastic? You mean malicious. Yes, I am a little malicious. ...Malice, sir, is the spirit of criticism, and criticism marks the origin of progress and enlightenment."

I love HC's reaction to all this: "What a windbag."

Thorwald wrote: "Adelle ...

You try a lot of possibilities of interpretation and thus you have a great chance to find something we others could not find, because we did not try ..."

Oh, good. ;) anyway, I can find, maybe, whar I'm looking for. ha ha.

Thomas wrote: "Adelle wrote: "Satana [Why is this section called that?]

"

Perhaps Settembrini is a rebel angel? Mann has a bit of fun with the comparison --

"Yes, yes, yes" [Settembrini] repeated, hissing the ..."

Mmm, I like that. That maybe Settembrini is Satana?

And that line you quoted. Maybe? The s sounds are to make us think of the snake in the Garden of Eden. Mann does seem to mention gardens every so often.

Jeremy wrote: "...He [Hans Castorp] is quite immature, and I find him quite annoying...."

LOL! I am quite sure if I were reading MM on my own, by about now I would have set it aside, neglecting to return to it. (In fact, I think that is what happened to me in the past -- there was a very old musty copy on some storage shelves that I finally discarded a year or so ago, but I did remember thinking -- you should really read this.) I have always said likeable characters weren't particularly important to me in assessing a book, but Hans Castorp challenges the truth of what I have mouthed. (On the other hand, an atmosphere of illness and death isn't particularly appealing either -- unlike Thorwald, I haven't been able to dismiss it as decoration only [see msg 40&42].)

Thorwald @42 wrote: "So far I have not understood why the setting of illness and death is so important to the story. "

Because we just started out, I don't think it's possible to be very concrete. But here is one attempt at an answer, for what it is worth.

Mann starts out telling us that HC is an average young man. So while most literary heroes come with a whole bag of problems that need to be solved, HC does not. That is, until unusual things start to happen to him. Another way in which this book contrasts Death in Venice?

Sure, a single body in the library might have done the trick. But it would have been another story (Settembrini as Poirot). We can be sure of that, even though we don't know which direction developments will take. HC's personal development may become an issue, and it may turn out, as Jeremy suggested, that the mountain represents pre-war Europe. We will see.

Meanwhile I did wonder whether the people on the mountain really differ from any random group (and maybe that's what you had in mind too). To me it seems that the peculiar quality of life on the mountain is a matter of degree. Think of the difference between a pan and a pressure-cooker.