Modern Good Reads discussion

I was recently asked a GREAT question, how much darkness should be presented in YA books?

What do you think?

Is there a line of too much sex, too much darkness? Or is all teenage angst good?

I think the answer may differ depending on age, and I am curious about what you think...

For me, darkness yes (ages 12 and up) sex no. I think young people are bombarded with that now days and I don't need it to tell a good story.

Glad to see we are on the same page!
I think that social acceptance has really dropped for what is appropriate for what ages. :) YA covers such a range of ages, maturity, and experiences, I think it's important to keep that same range in terms of exposure.

In counterpoint, tasteful sex or sexual activities are not necessarily bad since they are part of the landscape of young adults learning about the world. I would not recommend hardcore porn, but a bit of implied or evasively described sex certainly can be okay. I actually liked that in books when I was 12-14 since I was just edging into the waters of 'grownup' books in some ways. I admit that it always bafles me that parents are more pkay with violence than sex...

GAH TYPOS. Baffles and okay.

I have battled on this front, both the darkness and the sex, because my writing always tends in both directions. So my YA (still in editing), is both dark, and a little sexy.

But I really enjoy YA novels that are not overly dark or sexy. I also enjoy the more edgy YA books. So I can go either way and see the value of both without being bored or offended by either.

But in my own work I drew the line at an actual sex scene. My teens are pretty frisky, but no actual sex.

There's just no cutting out the darkness though. It is a paranormal thriller, after all, it should be a bit dark, in my opinion.

If I were to ever write the things I saw, heard, the friends I hung out with, and the things we actually did at the age of 16, it would NEVER be publishable as a YA novel.

YA, by and large is idealized fiction. It is not really intended to be true to life. Many teens today are living very adult lives, doing a lot of adult things. Not my teens, *wipes forehead in relief* but many--some of my neighbor's kids.

Everyone thinks teens are so different today, and with technology, there are some differences, but some things never change. Teens are just as obnoxious, mischievous, and wicked as they ever were before, but there's a little bit more accountability for their behavior today. The schools and legal/social services have a tighter grip on teens who misbehave.

And lets face it, if the teens in YA novels don't misbehave, at least a little, then you're not really getting anywhere near real life scenarios.

:)

Feed is a really good example of one of my favorite YA books that handled things quite well. I recommend it.

What about the violence in Harry Potter, and some of the themes of child abuse, rape, murder, anger, etc--compared to the more overtly violent Hunger Games? Neither directly included a sex scene, but both got pretty dark. (The Chamber of Secrets was certainly a bit scary to me in 7th grade.) HP certainly got a lot less flak than THG.

How does context have an impact on how much violence we are willing to tolerate in YA?

I think YA should contain material that is actually going on in the life of a teenager. Flirting, puppy love, dating relates to their lives but not actual sex scenes.

As for dark, the YA crowd likes fantasy and some of that gets quite dark but needs to be written within reason.They get enough death and violence on TV, movies and computer games. Books should be an escape from reality, not a manual on how to get rid of your classmates.

There's really a big gap for who reads YA. There's the older, soccer-mom readers who love the sexy horror stuff, and then there's the much younger readers who are a little too old for middle grade, but who don't need, (or want) a lot of sex in their stories. (I'm referring to a direct quote from my 12 year old grandson who said he'd read my book if there wasn't any kissing in it). Now a 12 year old girl might feel differently and that's why I say my books are targeted for boys. They don't mind violence, but the good guys win and when someone dies it is always respectfully, and no one kills in battle because they love to kill but rather because they have to and war is not a good thing. In fact, my MC's dad even tells Ian that "War never makes men good, or righteous. War’s tough on people." I think letting kids that age know they're going to experience dark things in life is being honest with them, but showing them how your characters deal with those kinds of issues (death, loss, betrayal etc) in a healthy way is a tool we can use to help them deal with their own struggles. And it doesn't have to be preachy. It can be completely entertaining.

I love your response Dianne!

Thank you Michelle.

Greta,

I'd like to believe that sex is out with teens, but then there are shows like "16 and Pregnant" that say otherwise. When my nine year old came home and told me about how you have sex (and got most of it right) then told me he learned it from a girl in class, I about had a stroke. They are nine and know how to have sex, it won't be long... unless I keep him locked up in a broom closet... not the worst idea I've ever had!

Personally I have learned (as a mother) that it really is a parents job to know their children and what they can handle. My 9 year old wants to read YA, because he is bored with most midgrade fiction, but (and especially after his latest experience) I absolutely do not let him read stories about any kind of infatuation issues (like kissing, holding hands, any of that) My 13 year old wanted to read The Hunger Games because all his friends were. I knew he couldn't handle it, but let him try. Nope, balled about it. He wasn't caught up in the "romance", he liked the action.

Heidi,
I know that today's kids know more about sex than I did at their age. It's just my personal opinion that sex doesn't belong in a YA book. In the books I write, teenagers are awkward about crushes and such stuff. I'm old-fashioned, I guess, but I like to read as an escape from reality and write that way too. :)

Dianne said it best!

I have never been a fan of reading an all-out sex scene. Work up to it and cut to the next chapter. We all know it happened, but I don't want to read 4 pages of quivering loins and that kind of drivel.

That being said, I don't think it is necessary to include sex in a YA book. If handled like it is above, I can deal with it. We all know that kids don't wait until they are 21 to have their first sexual encounter, so there is no point in avoiding the subject entirely.

A dark story is fine with me. Bad things happen. People do bad things. Life is not always fun and sunshine. Nothing my kids read will ever match the crap that is available on the TV. To be honest, most of the dark stories I have read are balanced by good morals or a strong message. I think this is oftentimes more beneficial to a YA reader. Yes bad things happen, but you have the strength to get through them.

"A dark story is fine with me. Bad things happen. People do bad things. Life is not always fun and sunshine. Nothing my kids read will ever match the crap that is available on the TV. To be honest, most of the dark stories I have read are balanced by good morals or a strong message. I think this is oftentimes more beneficial to a YA reader. Yes bad things happen, but you have the strength to get through them."

Yakara,
Beautifully said!!

I think that a certain amount of darkness is important in stories - it would be wrong for novels to create the impression that the world is perfect. However, what's nice and 'safe' about novels is that they will invariably have a happy ending, so any darkness is usually balanced with positive experiences.

My 13 year old sister read the hunger games and loved it, but I think that, because of her age, she perhaps didn't really pick up on some of the more important themes and topics in the work. I think that the same could be said for the Harry Potter books - I was fortunate enough to grow up at the same pace that the novels were being published, so could always cope with the darker elements to them. But kids now will start the novels at the same age I did (6) and then read all the way through straight away, perhaps missing out on a lot of what makes the stories special in the first place.

I also think that - in the right story - characters having sex is fine in YA novels, but more as an implicitly implied thing, rather than an actually description of what's going on. Annoyingly, I can't think of an example off the top of my head, but I know I've read some great YA novels where it's obvious the characters have had sex, but the author has sort of skipped over the moment itself. That keeps the realism, without putting off readers.

Greta wrote: "I think YA should contain material that is actually going on in the life of a teenager. Flirting, puppy love, dating relates to their lives but not actual sex scenes.

As for dark, the YA crowd lik..."

Hi Greta,
I'm a high school teacher, and I've worked with teens since 1997 in various capacities, and I'm sorry to disabuse you of the notion that sex isn't going on in the lives of teens, but... well, it is. For an extreme example, I had a student two years ago who had her first child at 12 and got pregnant again at the age of 16. And while that is unusual, I would say that most of the kids I currently work with are having sex. Not all of them. But most. As a teen myself, a hundred years ago, I and most of my peers were having sex. Girls lost their virginity usually between the ages of 15-17 in my peer group. Again, there were exceptions. Nowadays it's not uncommon for middle schoolers to have sex. So while many adults would like to think that sex is outside the experience of teens, they are misled.

Two of the most troubling trends I've seen among the students I have (who tell me things because I am their English teacher and they write blogs with personal stories) are:
1) Girls getting pregnant on purpose, because they want someone to love them. News of someone's pregnancy is not greeted by their peers with shock, horror, or derision (not that that was especially constructive back when it was the case), but with squeals of joy.
2) Girls must seduce the boys. As in, at a party, the girls will voluntarily do strip teases or bj competition in order to win the boys' favor. The boys then treat them as you might expect, with derision, rating them, dismissing the girls who are "ugly," etc. There's a serious power imbalance, and I don't know what happened to create a world where teenage boys are being catered to like this.

Sophia wrote: "Greta wrote: "I think YA should contain material that is actually going on in the life of a teenager. Flirting, puppy love, dating relates to their lives but not actual sex scenes.

As for dark, th..."

Sophia,
I am aware that sex is the "in" thing with teenagers now. I know a number of very young mothers. I used to work in a developmental preschool and worked with these kids having kids.

But I was speaking as an author of MG/YA books and my personal style of writing. I guess I am idealistic when I do not want to include sex in my books. When I was in junior high and high school, there were girls getting pregnant but it was not the norm back then (in the dark ages).

My books are fantasy and deal with other issues such as the characters working together to get out of sticky situations. As an ex-public school teacher, I try to sneak in lessons that kids that age need to understand like trust and working together. The readers may not notice the lessons but they are there.

Yes, sex is a part of being a teenager but it doesn't have to be in the books they read. That's all I meant.

Hi Greta! I completely agree.

What a great discussion, and so many great points. I think that's why YA is such a great genre. It spans a range of age, maturity levels, and experiences... and the books within cover that same range of emotion and depth.

A lighter feel and less explicit for the younger in this category, and more for the older range.

Something that many writers do not realize is the impact of the common core curriculum on book selections for YA. Because of the increased rigor requirements in this curriculum, there is now a stronger demand for books that have increasing complexity but still retain the required innocence of its readers' developmental ages. As a teacher in a southern state rural area, we are in a pinch trying to find appropriate books for our students that have the rigor and complexity required PLUS must have a message that our community values. For instance, Lois Lowry's book, The Giver has a Lexile range too low for its content. It floated to the high school level here, but common core assessment slapped it back down to seventh grade. Parents of seventh-graders are choosier about book content than high school parents. It can narrow book choices and force teachers back to the good ol days when books were both challenging and innocent. Here in the Bible Belt, putting a sexually explicit book (or one with foul language) could get one in hot water. How much influence do teachers have on the reading purchases of rural, poorer than most consumers? I think it is substantial.

I'm finding lately that I need a break from the YA genre due to the overwhelming amount of angst and darkness. It's too much. As far as the sex goes I prefer for that to stay in adult/contemporary novels. When they are too young I almost feel uncomfortable reading it. Sure we all had hormones then so it's okay for it to be inferred but at the same time sometimes I feel like a creeper reading about teenagers getting it on. ;)

For the Win is a YA book with little to no explicit sex iirc, but imho despite its flaws may be much better than most YA books these days in dealing with real world issues. I don't think some sex & violence in YA fiction is bad per se although I can understand why some ppl do not like them, however I do think there may be a trend among some YA authors that confuse explicit sex & violence with depth or subversiveness or realism.

Hello, I'm 17 years old and I was wondering if you knew any good YA books that didn't contain graphic sex. I don't want a childish book that you know, doesn't even imply it just a book that's not graphic like Breaking Dawn or others. I agree with Glenn when saying that you don't need that to make a good story, so if you knew any good books like that please share (like The Hunger Games that's what I'm talking about)

Hollie wrote: "I'm finding lately that I need a break from the YA genre due to the overwhelming amount of angst and darkness. It's too much. As far as the sex goes I prefer for that to stay in adult/contemporary ..."
Me too

Andrea wrote: "Hello, I'm 17 years old and I was wondering if you knew any good YA books that didn't contain graphic sex. I don't want a childish book that you know, doesn't even imply it just a book that's not g..."
I completely understand... I say leave the graphic stuff to erotica, and give us the story, the tension, and the characters. I'm interested to see what is recommended as well.

I also understand and I write adult level books. Most of the time explicit sex IS unnecessary though many of my colleagues would scream over that, LOL! I wish I could suggest something but I haven't read YA--well--it really wasn't around when I was that age, LOL! My stories are dark and have been called "not for the faint of heart" though I don't really write horror or paranormal. You might have to try a YA group here on GR.

Andrea wrote: "Hello, I'm 17 years old and I was wondering if you knew any good YA books that didn't contain graphic sex. I don't want a childish book that you know, doesn't even imply it just a book that's not g..."

If you thought Breaking Dawn had a graphic sex scene, I suggest you stay away from paranormal fiction. The trend today in YA paranormal is for some rather steamy scenes, even if they don't "go all the way".

Adult paranormal fiction is trending into the zone of erotica. Stay away from that for sure.

As a writer in this genre, I can assure you that Stephanie Meyer couldn't write a graphic sex scene if you paid her to. LOL.

Book suggestions: Fire, and Graceling, both books are YA Fantasy by Kristin Cashore, no sex scenes, but there's some romance:



And our very own mod, Kirstin Pulioff has a great YA/MG Fantasy series, about Princess Madeline, and there's no sex scenes to worry about, but there is romance:


Its becoming difficult to find YA novels that don't contain some level of risque material.

:)

P.I. wrote: "I also understand and I write adult level books. Most of the time explicit sex IS unnecessary though many of my colleagues would scream over that, LOL! I wish I could suggest something but I haven'..."

This is a YA Category.

Members, Please remember that self-promotion of your own books in these reader discussion boards is clearly transgresses our posting rules. Please don't do it.

Chris Shields,
Modern Good Reads,
Founder

Then what am I doing here? I'm sorry! And I meant no promotion when I posted!

Julie Kagawa The Iron Fey Series is light on implied sex and serious violence. There is violence and sexual tension etc, but quite a good series.

Among the books I read recently I think The Shattering and Stolen: A Letter to My Captor are YA books that as far as I remember do not contain graphic sex.

So besides sex, what is too much? What limits do you like to see on drugs, death, suicide, running away, abuse... do these have a place in YA?

Yvonne wrote: "Something that many writers do not realize is the impact of the common core curriculum on book selections for YA. Because of the increased rigor requirements in this curriculum, there is now a stro..."

Balance is the key. My YA/NA's do have sexual situations, but I never include the the F word, although there are references to the F word. I try to balance those with scenes and discussions of religion, because most people are religious. It is not unusual for a teenager to engage in sex on Saturday night and then go to church on Sunday and sincerely pray. That's how people are.

Some great points here and recommendations here. It's a very complicated issue. Thanks to the internet "darkness" is easily accessible and is often free, so it'll take a lot to shock young people. How this darkness is presented is also important: no one will pay TOO much attention to a very poorly written book about a homicidal maniac who tortures people, but a persuasive, strongly written book that encourages teens to lie and steal could be something concerned parents should think about.

I watched and read about a lot of violent and insanely sexual stuff (both fictional and real) in my teens and, on the surface anyway, didn't turn out too screwed up. What really affected me wasn't what I consumed through books, movies and videogames, but the darkness of reality. After graduating from high school I entered a world where I realised that the things I watched in movies actually DID happen and happened quite frequently to myself and those I cared about.

May I ask why it is called young adult if it is for minors? An adult is an 18+ year old... Just a curiosity...

I think the YA label needs removed altogether.

When I was a kid, YA didn't exist. I read whatever I could get my hands on. As with television, many of the programs geared toward children are terrible examples of entertainment for children. Bottom line, parents should be monitoring what their children are exposed to, and if we need to label books in any way, perhaps we should revert to movie ratings: PG, R, etc.

Jen wrote: "I think the YA label needs removed altogether.

When I was a kid, YA didn't exist. I read whatever I could get my hands on. As with television, many of the programs geared toward children are terri..."

I agree, and I note that, in Japan, manga is often rated OT for older teens.