Classics and the Western Canon discussion

Many developments!
HC and M. Chauchat -- flirting??
Two grandfathers in black, but for very different reasons.
And -- is HC going home after three weeks as intended? Or???

That passage about the two grandfathers is one of the most beautiful yet. Earlier, we had an image of Hans Lorenz Castorp over the baptismal bowl. Complemented by Settembrini's description of his own grandfather, Hans Castorp's memories assume cosmic significance. The opposite characters of the grandfathers are mapped on to an idyllic picture of a boat ride on a lake on a summer evening. There is such a vivid description of this image that I can imagine a painting, or better still, an old German woodcut, showing this scene, with HC in his boat in the middle, and the light/dark symmetries of the still water underneath and the sky above, with the sun setting on one side and the moon rising on the other.

Peter wrote: "That passage about the two grandfathers is one of the most beautiful yet. .."

I agree. But I also think it is one of the most significant. We have, I think, the first instance of such a stark difference, both in generations (here are both of them thinking about their grandfathers) but also in what their grandfathers represented (and both very much pre-WWI). One representing political agitation, a rebel, a "brother in arms with all peoples thirsting for freedom" and the other representing the core establishment, the old German order, with the generations of baptisms, the family heirlooms, the pillar of society.

Both wearing black but for almost opposite reasons, one in rebellion against society, one in respectful conformity to it. One struggling, as HC says, for rights which the other possessed.

To what extent do these grandchildren reflect their grandfathers' beliefs and values?

I'm curious about the curious paragraph that ends the chapter "Growing Anxiety." The opening phrase, "What a piece of work is a man" echoes a famous speech of Hamlet's and must be intentional.

What a piece of work is a man! how noble in reason! how infinite in faculties! in form and moving how express and admirable! in action how like an angel! in apprehension how like a god! the beauty of the world, the paragon of animals! And yet to me what is this quintessence of dust? Man delights not me- no, nor woman neither, though by your smiling you seem to say so.

When anthologized the speech is usually (I suspect) cut off after the word "neither." This lends it a profundity that anthologizers like, and matches Hans attitude at the start of the paragraph.

However, in context, the speech is part of Hamlet toying with Rosencrantz and Guildenstern. It could be interpreted ironically.

So Mann begins this strange paragraph with this allusion. And as I read the paragraph it seems to morph from the pseudo-sublime to the ridiculous.

I'm scratching my head.

Perhaps it is just me, but it seems that Settembrini is simply wrong (in hindsight) about much of his political analysis. To choose one example: technology is proving the way to bring nations closer together, "destroying prejudices, and leading at last to the brotherhood of nations."

He also holds a Manichean view of things that he divides into an "Asiatic principle" and a European one. Shades of Clash of Civilizations.

This would seem inconsistent with the the inevitable progress towards brotherhood.

Obviously, given Mann's seriousness, he is not meant to be portrayed as a buffoon. Yet Mann is also said to be an ironist. Could he be teasing us with Settembrini's platitudes in a manner comparable to Hamlet's teasing of R&G mentioned above?

Zeke wrote: "Obviously, given Mann's seriousness, he is not meant to be portrayed as a buffoon. Yet Mann is also said to be an ironist. Could he be teasing us with Settembrini's platitudes in a manner comparable to Hamlet's teasing of R&G mentioned above? "

Or is he using Settembrini to put forth, and perhaps suggest his disapproval of, some views which were popular at the time?

Zeke wrote: "Perhaps it is just me, but it seems that Settembrini is simply wrong (in hindsight) about much of his political analysis. ..."

Doesn't Mann suggest that he agrees with you? From the last paragraph of "Growing Anxiety" that you cited, "with the best of intentions he [HC] tested the man's [Settembrini's] views on reason...and was prepared to be influenced by them. And each time, he found it all the more permissible afterward to let his thoughts and dreams run free in another direction, in the opposite direction."

Can we read this as Mann himself disagreeing with Settembrini?

One commentator noted that Mann is very good at presenting philosophical ideas without judging them. But here he seems perhaps to be judging S and finding him falling short?

Zeke wrote: "Perhaps it is just me, but it seems that Settembrini is simply wrong (in hindsight) about much of his political analysis. To choose one example: technology is proving the way to bring nations close..."

Settembrini is an idealist, and like many idealists his notions are to some degree incompatible with reality. He may believe in the "brotherhood of nations" in a theoretical way, but in daily life he looks askance at his neighbor "Mongolians".

HC senses Settembrini's hypocrisy, but at the same time he is willing to "be influenced" by him. Why? Does he stand something to gain, or is he merely amused?

I think Mann probably is setting Settembrini up as a paragon of sorts, an avatar of idealism, but I'm not sure how he is going to use him. Maybe as a punching bag?

Does anybody want to try to summarize Settembrini's philosophy as we've seen it so far?

Everyman wrote: "Does anybody want to try to summarize Settembrini's philosophy as we've seen it so far?"

Excellent question! I can't wait to see what others make of it! I have been thinking about this all morning. I am in the middle of chapter 5 now and there are some very telling discussions between HC and S in these sections, but I'll try to stick to what we know of Settembrini by the end of Ch 4. Here goes.

Settembrini has taken it upon himself to be Hans Castorp's educator, I think because he can sense HC's "pleasure in experiencing" (if I can put it like that). To me the idea of Placet experiri is very Nietzschean. I wonder if there are any Nietzsche scholars in this group who might be able to shed more light on this, but my understanding of Nietzschean Placet experiri is as follows.

For Nietzsche, the defining feature of the modern world is that God is dead, and it is we who have killed him. There is a famous bit in Thus spake Zarathustra where this is proclaimed by a madman -- you can probably google it if you don't know it. The enormity of this insight had certainly not been fully appreciated in Nietzsche's time, and, in my view, still has not. Hence the ongoing (increasing?) interest in Nietzsche. The church and its teachings have become corrupted. Rather than a return to nature, Nietzsche argues we must transcend nature by remaking ourselves. All morals and values must be subjected to a process of revaluation. Zarathustra is the prophet of this new philosophy, the aim of which is the well known Ubermensch, or overman, sometimes translated as superman. One achieves this by a rather scientific process of experimentation with ideas. Much of what Nietzsche wrote is in the form of aphorisms. Nietzsche scholar Walter Kaufmann suggests that Nietzsche's intention with these is that they are provisional attitudes or vague philosophical propositions that the philospher can bring to bear on real-life situations. They are guidelines for philosophical experiments. They are far from commandments -- they should themselves be questioned and potentially discarded. They are seldom straightforward. To see the spirit of these experiments, consider this one, No. 113 (nice and short), from Beyond Good and Evil:

"You want to prepossess him in your favour? Then pretend to be embarrassed in his presence--"

There are often connections between consecutive aphorisms but this one comes pretty much out of the blue. What is its point? Is it merely to suggest a means of getting by in social situations, maybe a way of impressing the boss? Why the quotation marks? Who is saying it? But try it! Maybe you will find out!

The true philosopher never is anything. Philosophers of the "old school" think they know the truth. But now that God is dead, they are redundant. The true philosopher is always becoming. Consider this: (No. 42 from Beyond Good and Evil, from the chapter entitled The Free Spirit)

A new species of philosopher is coming up: I venture to baptise them with a name that is not free of danger. As I unriddle them, insofar as they allow themselves to be unriddled -- for it belongs to their nature to want to remain riddles at some point -- these philosophers of the future may have a right -- it may also be a wrong -- to be called attempters. The name itself is in the end a mere attempt, and, if you will, a temptation.


I am convinced that Nietzsche's philosophy, or at least some of his central ideas, are key to understanding Settembrini, and perhaps Settembrini can help us understand Nietzsche as well. Settembrini talks about the progress of humanity towards perfection. Things are good or bad depending on the extent to which they help us along that path. When it comes to music, Settembrini "suspects it of quietism" (suspects that we use it too much as an anaesthetic, or narcotic, for merely therapeutic purposes), but admits that it can stir people to strive for greater things.

One thing that Nietzsche says that is particularly apt for the discussion about "One word too many" (I think it is from The Genealogy of Morals, I got it from Kaufmann's indispensable biography) is that the philosopher who experiments in this way will, "in view of the human limitations of his insight, have to be unjust, in spite of all his striving for justice". Hans Castorp, e.g. in saying "one word too many" about Marusya, offends Joachim, but he then knows that he cannot talk about such things with Joachim. He blunders into making statements he cannot defend, despite not being an especially unjust person, and the redoubtable Settembrini has taken it upon himself to correct him. In this respect, Settembrini is both devilish and messianic: He incites corrosive questioning of one's presuppositions, and yet he wishes to help lead humanity towards a golden future.

Nietzsche also sees Eastern religions like Buddhism as being world-denying, in the same way as music can be. He accuses Eastern philosophies of being slave moralities, in that they encourage people to cultivate resignation and withdrawal from the world, which would lead to stagnation, since mensch must ceaselessly strive towards ubermensch. They attempt to escape suffering, or see it as being evil, when in fact suffering has its function in the economy of things. The true philosopher should be world-affirming and would not shrink from any aspect of life.

The take-home message of all this? It is never explicit, but Settembrini has a very Nietzschean attitude to life. He is very modern in his faith in technology and the ultimate goal of humanity. BUT I certainly don't want to say his philosophy is limited to this, or that the character of Settembrini has purposely been designed to represent Nietzsche's philosophy, because this is patently untrue -- there is much more to his character than that, and we have really only just met him!

PS: a disclaimer: I am very interested in Nietzsche, but I find him very difficult to understand. I apologise if I appear not to do his ideas justice in any way. I know Thomas Mann himself thought a lot of Nietzsche, and Freud, many of whose ideas are prefigured in Nietzsche's writing -- about dreams for example -- said of Nietzsche "that he had a more penetrating knowledge of himself than any man who ever lived or was likely to live" (quoted from the Jones biography of Freud by Kaufmann).

Peter wrote: "...They attempt to escape suffering, or see it as being evil, when in fact suffering has its function in the economy of things..."

Peter -- your antecedent of "they" in this sentence?

VERY nice info re Nietzsche. It does give me another way to look at Placet experiri. Thank you.

Jeremy wrote: "Settembrini has plenty of contradictions. He seems opposed to the whole philosophy of the Sanatorium, and yet he hangs around it. Why doesn't he move on?"

Great question. I'm not sure how to answer it yet, but I think his philosophy and his character become a little clearer in next week's reading (in the section "Encylopedia" especially.) I'm sure we'll return to this next week!

Peter wrote: "Everyman wrote: "Does anybody want to try to summarize Settembrini's philosophy as we've seen it so far?"

Excellent question! I can't wait to see what others make of it! I have been thinking about..."

Wonderful post. One comment I had is this: you wrote "The true philosopher never is anything. Philosophers of the "old school" think they know the truth. "

I'm not sure how you define the old school, but certainly Plato didn't think he knew the truth (though I think he thought he knew more of it than he admitted to), but I think many of them viewed themselves, as you say of the new philosophy, also as in the process of thought development. One thing that happened is that theology and philosophy got intermingled, to the detriment of philosophy, but I think they were getting unlinked well before Nietzsche.

But overall, you did a very nice piece of analysis there. I also agree with you that Settembrini is not a pure Nietzchean, but has more to his thinking than that.

Hm, Nietzsche and Settembrini, this doesn't work for me. Humanism in classical tradition and Nietzsche do not fit.

Maybe Settembrini suffers from the typical problem of classical humanists: He thinks a lot, but acts almost never. Whereas the Nietzschean type acts more than he thinks. Just my 2 cents.

Thorwald wrote: "Hm, Nietzsche and Settembrini, this doesn't work for me. Humanism in classical tradition and Nietzsche do not fit.

Maybe Settembrini suffers from the typical problem of classical humanists: He th..."

After more thought, I have decided it is not quite right to call Settembrini Nietzschean. Rather I think that what is going on, placet experiri, has parallels with the Nietzschean philosophy, but it is the experimenter himself, HC, who is determining his own values. Settembrini's role in the process is as educator, as he himself keeps saying, and as you say, he is a classical humanist. He provides a classical humanist sounding board for HC's experiments. But I don't have a very detailed picture of what it means to be a classical humanist and I want to think about this more. I think this is Everyman's original question -- we know what Settembrini does but why does he do it?

I don't think it is quite fair to say simply that S acts almost never, however. What should he be doing? In many ways he does what he can -- he sees himself as a teacher and propagator of humanist virtues, and he is sick. He is intellectually independent. He also recognizes that he is not the man of action that his grandfather was.

Lily wrote: "Peter wrote: "...They attempt to escape suffering, or see it as being evil, when in fact suffering has its function in the economy of things..."

Peter -- your antecedent of "they" in this sentence?"

By "they" I meant the Eastern religions.

Everyman wrote: "Peter wrote: "Everyman wrote: "Does anybody want to try to summarize Settembrini's philosophy as we've seen it so far?"

Excellent question! I can't wait to see what others make of it! I have been ..."

By "old school" I meant those philosophers who in the Nietzschean scheme actually become something i.e. hold on to certain values as being fixed. I agree that in this sense Plato is not strictly "old school".

One thing that happened is that theology and philosophy got intermingled, to the detriment of philosophy, but I think they were getting unlinked well before Nietzsche.

I appreciate this point, and I felt twinges every time I felt I was using "philosophy" and "religion" interchangeably. I am not a qualified philosopher, so my terminology is probably sloppy, and, if I am honest, my understanding of the history of theology and philosophy comes mostly through the lens of what I have been reading about Nietzsche.

Since HC is now extending his stay at the sanatorium, I must say I appreciate the use of the term sostenuto back on page 111. HC was listening to the concert.

The word means a note played as long or beyond it's value. I rather thought that was a bit of foreshadowing.

Peter wrote: "Settembrini's role in the process is as educator, as he himself keeps saying, and as you say, he is a classical humanist."

Well, at least that's what he keeps calling himself. Whether or not he is that is up to us to decide, isn't it? [g]

Adelle wrote: "Since HC is now extending his stay at the sanatorium, I must say I appreciate the use of the term sostenuto back on page 111. HC was listening to the concert.

The word means a note played as l..."

Very neat!

Well, now that I'm obsessed, I'm noting the 7s.

On the off chance you aren't watching for them:

Page 142: "On the sixth occasion" between himself and Frau Chauchat...and then there was the next occasion.

Page 143: "Hans Castorp was in the seventh heaven."

Page 145: HER room..."number seven"

This may be nothing direct. Or it may be no more than the feeling of the time...the Zeitgeist, if I remember my German.

The Lowe-Porter translation uses the word "hollow" quite a bit. Much more frequently than I would normally expect to find in most novels. I notice it repeatedly in MM.

Eliot's "The Hollow Men" was published AFTER "Magic Mountain." Was Eliot privately passing the poem about? I don't know. Perhaps it was simply a concept that was being used at this time--and so the word of choice when Lowe-Porter translated MM. Certainly HC feels a bit hollow to me at this point.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holl...

Hey! The name meant nothing to me, but when I googled I found Brunetto Latini in the 7th Circle of Hell (Inferno).

http://danteworlds.laits.utexas.edu/c...

EDIT ADDED: mmm. Speaking of Hell. Mann writes of HC listened to Settembrini "with the best of intentions.....He was entirely receptive" (160).

My dad (German parents) said so frequently to me, "the road to hell is paved with good intentions."

Have we fully dealt with the role of thermometers in the book? I have a couple of additional reflections to throw in, though they may seem insignificant compared to the elevated tone of so many interesting comments in these threads. Still, perhaps the prosaic can lead to something.

First, in a motivational speech somewhere I heard the speaker say, "Everyone has to choose whether to be a thermometer or a thermostat." Recalling this got me thinking about the characters in the book and which each might be.

Second, a trainer at my gym always points out that when a person is trying to lose weight, the worst thing they can do is weigh themselves each day.

Can one ever really say too much about thermometers? I think not. I like the thermometer/ thermostst quote. Apt.

Page 164. Hans Castorp is listening to music.

Carmen. The downfall of Don Juan.

Freischutz. marksman who, by a contract with the devil, has obtained a certain number of bullets destined to hit without fail whatever object he wishes. As the legend is usually told, six of the magic bullets (German: Freikugeln, literally "free bullets"), are thus subservient to the marksman's will, but the seventh is at the absolute disposal of the devil himself.

From Wikipedia.

Adelle wrote: "Page 164. Hans Castorp is listening to music.

Carmen. The downfall of Don Juan.

Freischutz. marksman who, by a contract with the devil, has obtained a certain number of bullets destined to hit w..."

Wow!

Music is suspect to Settembrini and alien to JZ. Yet Hans allows it in. To what effect? We don't yet know.

Zeke wrote: "Have we fully dealt with the role of thermometers in the book? I have a couple of additional reflections to throw in, though they may seem insignificant compared to the elevated tone of so many int..."

During Behren's examination of Joachim, HC appreciates Joachim's "gymnast arms" and thinks, "Look at him, a perfect adult male, an absolute Apollo Belvedere, to a T. But inside, Joachim is ill, and outside he's too warm -- because of illness. Illness makes people even more physical, turns them into only a body."

There is a lot of focus on the body in this scene -- HC's focus on JZ's body, (Adelle?) and HC's focus on his own body. The thermometer seems to be a psychosomatic instrument, the medium by which HC becomes ill. One moment he has a common cold, and the next he is institutionalized with a life-threatening illness. Largely in thanks to a thermometer, and the doctors who advocate for his illness.

On a different note, what is the meaning of "lambent" in this scene? Behrens tells Joachim, "Still on the lambent side, my good Ziemsen," and HC echoes, "He's still lambent, still toxic..." It's used three or four times, and I don't quite understand what it's supposed to signify. Is the German just as ambiguous?

lambent

1: playing lightly on or over a surface : gliding over : wavering, flickering < a fire of resinous wood … began to crackle and throw lambent shadows about the brass andirons — Hervey Allen >

2: softly bright or radiant < her eyes are lambent with love — Francis Yeats-Brown >

3: light and brilliant < the play of the author's lambent wit reminds one of the effect of sunshine on rippling water — B.R.Redman > < the coda … is brisk and lambent — Vernon Young >

Origin of LAMBENT
Latin lambent-, lambens, present participle of lambere to lick — more at lap

First Known Use: 1647 (sense 1)

“Lambent.” Webster's Third New International Dictionary, Unabridged. 2013.. Web. 12 Apr. 2013.

I know this is not what you asked, Thomas. It's just where I went for a baseline.

At 30 Thomas wrote: ".On a different note, what is the meaning of "lambent" in this scene? Behrens tells Joachim, "Still on the lambent side, my good Ziemsen," and HC echoes, "He's still lambent, still toxic..." It's used three or four times, and I don't quite understand what it's supposed to signify. Is the German just as ambiguous? .."

Lowe-Porter has that translated as "Point 7,point 9....Still a little too much lighted up, my dear Ziemssen.....Not free from infection" (177). IF I'm looking at the same passage.

During Behren's examination of Joachim, HC appreciates Joachim's "gymnast arms" and thinks, "Look at him, a perfect adult male, an absolute Apollo Belvedere, to a T. But inside, Joachim is ill, and outside he's too warm -- because of illness. Illness makes people even more physical, turns them into only a body."

HC does note the well-develped body of JZ. But his heart won't pound over Joachim's body. JZ is too old. The operative word is "adult."



(1) just for what it's worth, Apollo Belvedere is a Greek sculpture which depicts Apollo having shot a death dealing arrow. But the most perfect body.

(2) Yes, Joachim there has a healthy- looking body. (A lie. There are so many lies. And the foreign phrases used to avoid having to speak plainly or bluntly, I think.) I think that First line means Not that the body develops, but that soon one is putting all one's thought and attention into the body... The body becomes the whole focus.

I was sad when HC was considering sending word to Behrens that he didn't need the exam. But then Frau Chauchat smiled at him. The idea of cancelling "had presented itself to himin an advantageous light, but now withered away under that searching smile" (176).

Don't go to the exam, Hans Castorp, I want to say to him. Don't go there. Go home.

Adelle: I was sad when HC was considering sending word to Behrens that he didn't need the exam. But then Frau Chauchat smiled at him. The idea of cancelling "had presented itself to himin an advantageous light, but now withered away under that searching smile" (176).

Don't go to the exam, Hans Castorp, I want to say to him. Don't go there. Go home.

Could we have some sort of Garden of Eden thing going on here? Temptation...dangerous knowledge...

If this is, in fact, a novel about the education of Hans Castorp, he can only get it by eating the thermometer (err. apple). Would the character really be better off going back to the life of a ship building engineer in Germany?

Zeke wrote: ".If this is, in fact, a novel about the education of Hans Castorp, he can only get it by eating the thermometer (err. apple). Would the character really be better off going back to the life of a ship building engineer in Germany? .."

You are very probably correct about that.

Spiritually/ for the growth of Hans Castorp HC, probably has to stay.

Sigh. But it's as someone posted above, it is extremely probable that HC wasn't particularly -- if at all -- infected w TB. He's being ripped off financially.

Sanatorium International/Behrens/etc likely Wants him to stay. He would, indeed be a "good" patient in many respects.

He's a pushover. He didn't complain to the establishment (he half-heartedly, kinda sorta complained to Joachim) about either of his bills--though he didn't use the services charged, though he thought he was overcharged.

He speaks of tipping generously-- to keep friendly face around him.

The woman who sold him the thermometer said something to the effect "I know you're not one to quibble over your bill."

To tell you the truth, initially I wondered whether the thermometer sold to him might be not be improper--might not be setup to run a little higher than "true"... Had HC bought his thermometer in the village instead, might he have gotten different results?

Sigh. And as someone posted, HC likes doing nothing.

Aside: Something wrong with those people. Hours to spend resting every day. Where are their stacks of fabulous books to read? HC brought ONE book--just one--for a three-week stay. Can you imagine?

EDIT added. well, I see on page 189 that there is a library there.

I have not finished reading chapter IV yet, but these are my observations thus far.
On a light note, there was earlier discussion (somewhere) about the appearance of Madame Chauchat (i.e. the heedless one). In my mind, she always appeared more like Kirsten Dunst but perhaps somehow less lovely/perhaps bigger boned. ('the braid she wore wreathed round her head-they were reddish-blonde..." Lowe-Porter p. 143).
I do tend to regard HC as very Germanic (as of that time/correct me if I am wrong) in thought...("feel respect for conditions of duration and stability' and the more respect, the longer they lasted" (p. 119). HC is troubled by S's ideas especially in his dreams ( "a disturbing influence" p. 147) (of course, dreams are when a person tries to sort things out in a fluid and floating manner) and when hearing about S's grandfather, HC encounters new thought never entertained by him before that "rebellion should go paired with civic virtue" and the gleaning that the contribution of technical progress might have some play on morals and global "brotherhood". pp. 153-154. Thus indeed..it perhaps may be that HC is receiving enlightment or at least exposure of ideas new to him, wrong or right ...as a result of being at the sanatorium wherein people from various locations arrive with their differing thoughts/ideas. The sanatorium being a microcosm of global ideas .. the world made small in essence here by shared disease. Such perhaps represents the world and the impending conflagation of ideas....and the new proximity of new ideas via "new means of communication" and expanded means of travel.
The distinction of the two grandfathers and the wearing of black is interesting..."But whereas the one had assumed it in token of his pious reverence for the past and the dead, to whom he felt himself with his whole being to belong, the other had worn it as a sign of rebellion, in the name of progress, and in a spirit of hostility toward the past". (L-P p. 152) Likely a result of experiential learnings.....resulting in those who find the status quo acceptable and those who do not.

Adelle wrote: "HC does note the well-develped body of JZ. But his heart won't pound over Joachim's body. JZ is too old. The operative word is "adult."
."

I think this is taking it a bit too far. Assuming that what HC felt for Hippe was a romantic crush (and that is not absolutely clear) then HC was the same age. Where are you seeing that HC, as an adult, has a romantic attraction to children? I see no foundation for that whatsoever.(There is another story by Mann in which this would be the case, but this is HC, not Aschenbach.)

Or am I completely misunderstanding you?

Thomas wrote: "Adelle wrote: "HC does note the well-develped body of JZ. But his heart won't pound over Joachim's body. JZ is too old. The operative word is "adult."
."

I think this is taking it a bit too far. ..."

No, I don't think you misunderstood me. I admit to being influenced by background information on Mann himself. Still, such a take could be inferred from the story itself, I think. Maybe I only see that because of the video (Modern Scholar) on Mann at the time of his writing MM. Possible.

Well, You know you specifically asked me. (Adelle?).

So it seemed I should answer. And I had to what I think, 'cuz, otherwise there wouldn't be any point in answering.

Adelle wrote: "No, I don't think you misunderstood me. I admit to being influenced by background information on Mann himself. Still, such a take could be inferred from the story itself, I think..."

I think Mann introduces a lot of innuendo here to ramp up the sexual tension in the story, but I don't see that the text supports HC having pedophiliac tendencies. (The absence of children in the story would be the first problem.) If you're reading stuff in from Mann's life that isn't in the text, that's another thing altogether.

Thomas wrote: ".I think Mann introduces a lot of innuendo here to ramp up the sexual tension in the story, but I don't see that the text supports HC having pedophiliac tendencies. (The absence of children in the story would be the first problem.) If you're reading stuff in from Mann's life that isn't in the text, that's another thing altogether. .."..."

That informarion is in Mann's background information.

But I think that supposition IS supported by a close reading of the text.

Especially in a book such as MM in which there is layer after layer of lies [p100: Settembrini: "Have you been making purchases?" HC: "No,"... minutes after he purchased the blanket.]






and half truths and partial truths---in which the most important elements are left unspoken [p151. The mother comes to get her son. "...she got word of his goings on, in Baccho et ceteris...". The true phrase is "Baccho et Venere," but though everyone knows the phrase ... All accept the substitution of a more acceptable phrase, as Madame Chauchat is a more acceptable substitution for Hibbe...as I read MM.]


The true truths are unspoken by unspoken agreement. [ "By common consent they let the subject drop" (131). ]

The things of value in this story ARE what can be pulled from beneath the innuendos and lies and the adumbrated conversation allowed by proper society. There is no story here worth reading unless we read between the lines and below the surface.

Adelle wrote: "Well, now that I'm obsessed, I'm noting the 7s.self and Frau Chauchat...and then there was the nex..."

That's several. There are many more!

Zeke wrote: "Have we fully dealt with the role of thermometers in the book?"

Not at all. We've barely scratched the surface of them.

I like your comment on being the thermometer or the thermostat. Can you link it to MM?

The thermometer is certainly an oral obsession. Along with the cigar. But what amazes me is that the temperatures are so modest compared to what we now think of as normal temperature (98.6). These are only slightly elevated temperatures they're talking about, and could easily be caused by wrapping oneself tightly in multiple blankets. No doctor today would have any concern for a 99.3 degree temperature.

But I suppose if you are indeed confined to the sanatorium for months on end it's one of the few things you could do to occupy your time and mind.

Adelle wrote: "Don't go to the exam, Hans Castorp, I want to say to him. Don't go there. Go home. "

[g]

That's the mark of good writing, isn't it?, when you get involved enough to want to advise the characters, to talk to them and try to persuade them do act differently!

Thomas wrote: "I think this is taking it a bit too far. Assuming that what HC felt for Hippe was a romantic crush (and that is not absolutely clear) then HC was the same age. Where are you seeing that HC, as an adult, has a romantic attraction to children? I see no foundation for that whatsoever."

I have to agree with you. After all, the only female that HC seems attracted to is a married adult woman. It's for her that his heart pounds. I can't see any child relationship here.

"...Where are you seeing that HC, as an adult, has a romantic attraction to children? ..."

Isn't there a distinction to be made here between "adult," "adolescent," and "child"? Despite the actress/film linkages, Madame Chauchat has come across to me as somewhat adolescent in actions and even appearance.

Given that Mann claimed MM as at least initially started as a parody to A Death in Venice, how much is it legitimate to bring his larger oeuvre (as opposed to his biography) into consideration in looking at MM?

I know this is really Adelle's discussion, but I got confused on the introduction of "child" or "children" into the conversation.

At 44, Thank you, Lily.

Now I'm like Settembrini. "Permit me to preface this. I may well be mistaken in my interpretation."

I have never suspected HC as being sexually interested in children. I think his interest, his intense interest, is in Hibbe---and, possibly, in young men of a similar age. We shall see. Perhaps.

No spoilers. (view spoiler)[

I don't know if there was an "age of consent" in 19th century Germany...I suppose a 14- or 15-year-old isn't technically an adult. That's the age bracket that I think attracts HC.

There are no teenaged boys at the sanatorium. That fact in and of itself means nothing in regards to whether or not HC is interested in teenaged boys.

The eyes, etc, that reminded HC of Hibbe are what initially attracted him to ... the body that has those eyes.

I could be mistaken, but I don't think there is anything in the text to suggest that HC is attracted to Madame Chauchat...as Madame Chauchat...as a woman. She is a substitute.

HC never, or scarcely ever, refers to her, or thinks of her as a woman. She is more often a "creature." Some sort of being. And perhaps she's a "creature" because HC views her as having the "wrong" sex. IF the heart of HC beat for Madame (and I don't think it does), it beats then only out of physical lust. HC doesn't like the creature. She is "heedless." It's not her society he wants (144), "while as for the rest (unspoken wink, wink, nudge, nudge )--well, however the thing turned out" (144). HC thinks of her as of the wrong class. He doesn't care at all about her as a person.


Madame Chauchat has the eyes of the teenaged Hibbe, the broad cheekbones of the teenaged Hibbe. She has such hands as not usually associated with women (small and feminine), not yet the hands of a grown man (large). She has the hands --- most importantly she has these hands in the dream --- of a teenaged male: "not overly well kept, rather broad, with stumpy fingers, the skin roughened next to the nails" (92). How many women who can afford to stay at the sanatorium keep their nails in such a state? How many teenaged boys have such hands?

She has the voice of a teenaged male, the exact wording used to describe the voice of Hibbe: "slightly husky" (115, etc.) The voice of a grown man would probably have deepened with the years. Now maybe the attraction to this voice is specific to Hibbe. Maybe it's an attraction the voices of young men.

HC's eyes are never drawn to the Madame's "small, maidenly (ie, young girl) breasts," but rather, repeatedly to the her back (her "flaccid" back) and her arm: "His eyes remained fixed on Madame Chauchat's back" (129, etc.).

From "Sudden Enlightenment" Not a spoiler---simply details that aren't yet mentioned at the close of Chapter 4: (view spoiler)[ She was about the height of a teenage boy before he starts growing: "She was only of middle height--a thoroughly proper and delightful height, in Hans Castorp's eyes-- but relatively long-legged (like a gangly teenaged boy) and narrow in the hips (like a teenaged boy)" (213) (hide spoiler)]

And then, the more I think on it the more meaning the scene Thomas posted seems to have:

During Behren's examination of Joachim, HC appreciates Joachim's "gymnast arms" and thinks, "Look at him, a perfect adult male, an absolute Apollo Belvedere, to a T.

(1) What is the point of telling us that this is the body of an "adult male." We know Joachim is an adult. How much more natural it would have been to have written, "Joachim had the perfect body," Or, perhaps, "Joachim had the perfect male body." But "perfect adult male"...seems a bit much.

Unless perhaps we are supposed to think about WHY we are told this is the body of an adult male. Therefore, specifically not the body of a teenaged boy.

(2) Apollo Belvedere. Initially I had thought this was due to the connection of Apollo Belvedere with "this sculpture depicting Apollo as having shot a death dealing arrow." I had thought it was to put the thought of death (Whose?) into our minds.

But on further reflection, no. It seems more and more likely to me that Apollo Belvedere is mentioned here to put the reader in mind of the ancient Greeks. Their preference for young men. And this phrase placed so close to "adult"? That must mean something. Another hint--a virtual shove, actually--that Hans Castorp isn't interested in the bodies of "adult" men. But Apollo Belvedere---which is where the thoughts of HC turned... I think that tells us something as readers. At the least, I think it suggests something to us as readers.

Hans Castorp isn't even consciously aware of this. It seems likely he's suppressing. This is not the society or time that celebrates personal sexual freedom. So nothing of this would be clearly spelled out. It's not even clear to HC! He doesn't know himself yet. Ever?



But where do HC's eyes, and thoughts turn? That, I think is where we, too, have to look for clues.

And I could so easily be wrong. But I don't believe I am.

(hide spoiler)]

Everyman asks me to try to link my comment about thermometers and thermostats to MM.

So far, most of the patients seem like thermometers (hence the obsession). They rely on others (and instruments) to tell them how (who?) they are. JZ is the one character who actively resists this. He defines himself as a soldier (and is tauntingly referred to that way by Behrens) and wishes to take action and leave.

The closest exception so far would be Settembrini. (I suspect we will meet others.) A thermostat controls the temperature. Settembrini is trying to do this for society but is ineffectual.

Ambiguous for me are the doctors. As professionals they should be trying to influence things. But, somehow, I don't think they really want to (or know they cannot?).

I like that, Zeke.

I find I like rather like the thermostat characters.

EDIT ADDED: I want to use a different word choice. I want to say, not that I "like" the thermostat characters, particularly, but that I'm drawn to them. They're engaging. I worry, however, that me and Hans Castorp are drawn to them like moths to the flame.

Shortly before the end of the long Two-grandfathers passage the first crucial turn in the whole story happens (at least IMHO): Hans Castorp starts to open his mind for Settembrini.

Hans Castorp does this in a very wise and philosophic way: He just lets the teachings of Settembrini drop into his mind, without knowing which results this will show! When I read this I felt urged to embrace Hans Castorp and to say: Good boy! Congratulations!

Lowe-Porter: "... Well, all that young Hans Castorp found worth listening to; not precisely overwhelming, of a value largely experimental, but still worth listening to. ... But Hans Castorp good-naturedly took cognizance of Settembrini’s point of view and tested by it his own inner experiences; from which self-examination it principally appeared that the waking man has anadvantage over the sleeping and dreaming one."

Interesting also the deeper reasons for Hans Castorp's decision: "Indeed, to give expression to all that we suspector divine, we think it not unlikely that Hans Castorp hearkened to Herr Settembrini’sdiscourse in order to get from his own conscience an indulgence which otherwisemight not have been forthcoming. But what—or who—was it that drew down theother side of the scales, when weighed over against patriotism, belles-lettres, and thedignity of man? It was—Clavdia Chauchat"

So, the desire for the woman creates the need for a counter-balance and results in the creation of culture :-)

But I think (or at least wish) that it is more. Hans Castorp just enhanced his horizon, and especially the comparison of the two grandfathers widened his horizon and made him opening. By the grandfathers, both respectable, he had a possibility to compare the two cultures face-to-face without the feeling of being inferior. And he found that both had their reasons and values. It's not only the lust ... at least I hope this. I would like the thought!

Zeke wrote: "Everyman asks me to try to link my comment about thermometers and thermostats to MM.

So far, most of the patients seem like thermometers (hence the obsession). They rely on others (and instruments..."

Adelle wrote: "I like that, Zeke.

This also seems to connect to the discussion on Sophie Scholl made in another thread. She would perhaps look with disdain on the thermometers and approve only of the thermostats?


I find I like rather like the thermostat characters."

at 48mThorwald wrote: "Shortly before the end of the long Two-grandfathers passage the first crucial turn in the whole story happens (at least IMHO): Hans Castorp starts to open his mind for Settembrini.

.."


Well, Thorwald, you certainly made me go back and re-read and re-read and re-read that section. And oh my.

Postive: I really do like the aspects of this section in which it seems that Hans Castorp is not just mindlessly following the rules simply for the reason that such rules exist.

Negative: He doesn’t seem to be thinking the situation through and deciding whether breaking the rules is the RIGHT thing for him to do. He seems only to want to do what he wants …because he wants to. That’s not reason enough…in my opinion. I want more from Hans Castorp. You posted that HC may very well be a real hero in Magic Mountain. Now I’m rooting for him to become a real hero. And for me, he can’t have an affair with, he can’t pursue Madame Chauchat and be a hero unless he finds a truly ethical reason to do so--a reason that brings integrity to HC. We’ll see.

I, too, really liked the comparison of the two grandfathers. Actually, for much the same reason you did: “both had their reasons and values.” I loved that both grandfathers wore the same color—and that the wearing of that color represented almost exactly different values to the two men. How can this be?

That should give Hans Castorp something to mull over. That really could be one of the turning points for HC. It really is possible that this could lead to positive growth for HC.

But oh my gosh!

(view spoiler)[

My endorsement, if I might be allowed to lift the words of Joachim and Hans Castorp, is full to the brim with qualifiers. “that at that time, and in that situation, it might have been conceivably possible” (153) that this MAY be a good thing for HC. It could be good if he would follow through and think about it and make his own judgment about it.

And then what a thing! I had almost the opposite reaction to the way Hans Castorp listens to Settembrini. I’m so apprehensive for HC. Perhaps it will work out for the best. I don’t know. But I’m concerned for Hans Castorp.

I so go back and forth on Settembrini. P152 finds HC “critical of what {S} said, and put off by it”…BUT…and this seems as though it MAY be a positive.. “yet he listened receptively…for it opened to his understanding a world utterly new and strange.” Maybe good. Maybe bad. But it COULD be good. If he would truly think about it and decide what he thinks about it.

As it is, I think it’s dangerous of HC to just let the words of Settembrini drop into his mind.

There’s that worrisome sentence: “He honourably refrained from judging what he did not understand, but simply made mental note of the contrast and let it go at that” (154).

Yes, one can’t make an informed judgement without understanding. However, (1) sometimes one has to anyway—to the best of one’s abilities, and (2) I hate that “let it go at that.” I just feel that that is all HC is ever going to do. He’s not, I feel, going to think it through. I think he just pats himself on the back and gives himself kudos for “honorably not judging.” I hope I’m wrong!

And hasn’t this been shown so often to be an … issue (I honorably refrain from using the word “weakness”) for Hans Castorp?

“I won’t try to judge yet” (41).

Joachim has suggested he’s “rather flabby-minded” (49).

HC to Settembrini: “I am not very quick in my judgments. I am inclined to look at people and say, ‘So that’s you, is it? Very good.’” {!}(“good” without judgment?) Settembrini to HC: “This is apathetic of you. You should judge—to that end you have been given your eyes and your understanding” (64).

“why should I try to judge” (87)

I tell you, Thorwald, sometimes I feel that Settembrini is going to be a good influence, perhaps just what Hans Castorp needs. And other times I think he’s painting a path full of pretty words that will lead HC down a negative road. Maybe he’s going to be a bad influence. “and Hans Castorp, for his part, fairly yearned to be influenced” (149). So this could turn out badly.

On the other hand, Settembrini, turned on the light. Although he doesn't always do so, he appears capable of saying exactly what he thinks. He thinks. That alone makes me want to put him in the good influence column.

But on the other hand, I keep going back to Hans Castorp’s dreams. Dreams being the channel through which the unconscious tries to warn the conscious self. In his dreams, “he had railed at him…and tried to shove him away because he was a disturbing influence” (149).

But on the third hand, I think, mmm, disturbing is not necessarily evil or bad---it’s just disturbing, and since I know Hans Castorp doesn’t like to be disturbed…maybe it’s just what he needs.

But on the fourth hand, even though he was “honorably not going to judge,” HC’s conscience bothered him while he listened to Settembrini (156) and he “mistrusted” (157) “Herr Settembrini’s sonorous flow of words.”

I don’t [most of the time] see Settembrini as evil, or as trying to be a bad influence. I wonder if perhaps it’s not unlike the example of the grandfathers both wearing black—each associating a different meaning to the choice. I think Hans Castorp may be getting a different meaning from the words of Settembrini than what Settembrini intends.

Oh, that last bit: : "Indeed, to give expression to all that we suspect or divine, we think it not unlikely that Hans Castorp hearkened to Herr Settembrini’s discourse in order to get from his own conscience an indulgence which otherwise might not have been forthcoming (160)

That’s the bit that really worries me—it gave me a chill. To me, that says that Hans Castorp knows—his conscience has told him—that pursuing Madame Chatchat is not the right thing to do. But HC is going to find in Settembrini’s words what HC wants to hear. He’s going to push away the HC dream warning because the awake HC is stronger. “What a creature is man….How easy it is for him to think he hears…a license to passion” (160).

(hide spoiler)]

Adelle wrote: "Postive: ...
Negative: ..."

You are right that Settembrini's influence is questionable. I read further on and found that ... well ... this has to be discussed in a later thread.

But listening is never bad :-)