Into the Forest discussion

Warning there are spoilers in this post!
I am reading Tam Lin by Pamela Dean
Have any of you read it? It is based on the Scottish Ballad but set in a small Midwestern college in the early 70s. I am a huge fan of Terri Windling ( aren't we all?) and have loved most of the novels in her Fairy Tale Series.
I am almost half way through and am seriously considering dropping it. Up to now there has been nothing fantasy-like, no fairies, just talk of a ghost. At first all the literary references and university talk were interesting, but now they are getting boring.
Does this novel get better?
Have any of you read other Tam Lin re-tellings? If so, how do they compare?

I thought it was readable but not as wonderful as everyone else seems to think. I kind of agree with you -- way to many literary references which is a weird thing for me to say because I loved Among Others. Maybe because the references were so obscure? I just didn't buy that college freshman would spend so much time quoting/talking about obscure literature and it all seemed very contrived.

It does eventually incorporate some magic and the Tam Lin story at the end of the book. At the very, very end.

Thanks for the quick reply Melanti! I appreciate it. I loved Among Others so that is why at first all the references did not bother me.
Maybe I'll skip to the very end!

I actually loved all the English lit bits, but the actually saving lover from fairy plot didn't wow me.

Chris, at first I also enjoyed the English lit parts but at a certain point after having 3 plays described in detail, I got really tired of it. I guess I am disappointed because the only similarities with the original ballad up to now are the names; Janet and Carterhaugh is Carter Hall and I take it Thomas will be the one needing rescuing. Okay, there is the herbal remedy Nick gives her for birth control as well as the night ride..... What else?

I love the Tam Lin tale and am always on the lookout for others. I liked Tam Lin by Pamela Dean okay.

I have also read Tam Lin by Jane Yolen which so far has been my favorite of these.

Here is a list of several Tam Lin like stories:
http://www.goodreads.com/list/show/17...

The Perilous Gardand Fire and Hemlock were probably the most interesting Tam Lin versions I've read, but both are YA.

Lee Anne wrote: "The Perilous Gardand Fire and Hemlock were probably the most interesting Tam Lin versions I've read, but both are YA."

Yes, both of those are good ones. Come to think of it, almost all of the Tam Lin stories have been YA.

Jalilah wrote: "Chris, at first I also enjoyed the English lit parts but at a certain point after having 3 plays described in detail, I got really tired of it. I guess I am disappointed because the only simil..."

Again, a lot of the more magical, mystical stuff happens toward the end of the book. I liked it a lot myself, but was a theater/English major, so I wasn't bothered by literary OR theatrical plot discussion :) At the risk of giving away too much (not sure how far along you are) there are other herbal references, interactions between The Boys, some Spooky Situations, etc. I'd say to keep reading; the ending does seem a bit anticlimactic as far as fairy tale adaptations, but I was delighted by one particular aspect of it. Let us know when you're done so we can discuss it!

Delanie wrote: "Jalilah wrote: "Chris, at first I also enjoyed the English lit parts but at a certain point after having 3 plays described in detail, I got really tired of it. I guess I am disappointed becaus..."

I was delighted by the lit references myself and I was a Mathematics major.

Thanks for all the encouragement everyone! I am glad that I stuck it out and read to the end because my over all impression, in spite of all my complaints, is that it was an enjoyable read, even though it dragged on at parts.
Finally it was not so much the literary references as it was the detailed descriptions of Janet's freshman year that started boring me. At least 2/3rds of the novel takes place her first year and then the story practically fast forwards to her final year. This is too bad because it would have been a much better novel had it been better paced.
That being said, what made me appreciate this adaptation is the fact that in spite of the contemporary setting, in many ways it is actually closer to the original ballad than the other 2 adaptations I read.
It would take forever to recount all the similarities, but for example:
In the Ballad, when Janet and Tam Lin first meet they argue over a rose in Carterhaugh and In Dean's novel it is over the book the Romance of the Rose.
In both the Ballad and novel Thomas questions Janice's right to the rose and both cases Janice feels she is entitled to it.
Thomas came into the Fairy Queens servitude by falling off his horse in the woods and has to serve for 7 years, ending it by being sacrificed for the Tithe.
Janice gets pregnant, and her pregnancy is what helps to free Thomas, as well as having to throw his burnt ashes into the river.

Kathy and Lee Anne thanks for the other suggestions! I am in the mood for more Tam Lin!
Delanie, I would love to discuss it more! I realise now that there was lots of magical stuff going on underneath the surface that I did not pick up on at first.

Now I keep thinking about this book and I have so many questions! It is my understanding that both Nick and Robin were human having gone "under" the Fairy Hill around Shakespeare's time and having come out in the 60s. Is this correct? What about the others, Melinda Wolfe, Professor Ferris, the two sisters Anne and Odille? Were they human or fairy?

Jalilah wrote: "Now I keep thinking about this book and I have so many questions! It is my understanding that both Nick and Robin were human having gone "under" the Fairy Hill around Shakespeare's time and having ..."

I am going to have to re-read and think about this.

I know, once you are done you want to go back and reread it to pick up on all the little nuances you might have missed the first time around, right?

Melinda Wolfe, *definitely* fae, as Professor Ferris is, for sure. I think Anne and Odille might be, just owing to their reactions over things; that, and it seems like if you really get into that group they have a long, long, LOOOOOOONG history. I loved the Shakespeare's players having been men to run with them!

I think it leaves a lot of questions, which I found eminently unsatisfying at the time, but I like that there can be theories and speculations about a lot of it. What about the ghostly books, for example?

Delanie wrote: "I know, once you are done you want to go back and reread it to pick up on all the little nuances you might have missed the first time around, right?
.."

Considering the fact that I wrote that I felt like abandoning Tam Lin in the middle, I must seem ridiculous, but I felt that way! Now I'd really like to re-read! I now realize I missed all kind of things when I thought Dean was going over-board describing all the details of Janet's daily life.
The ghostly books...I did not really get that except that they are the ghosts of young women impregnated by men who were in the same situation as Thomas, in servitude to the Fairy Queen. Remember when Melinda Wolfe took the books that Janet found? That was really strange...also I never really understood what was going on with Peg. Definitely have to re-read but still can't believe I am saying it!

LOL, I had EXACTLY the same reaction the first time I read it--WHERE IS THE FANTASY, MS. DEAN?! I wanted to yell. Then got to the end and was completely blown away. She's very subtle. There ARE things that I think are overboard, unless there are hidden things about dietary decisions regarding the faeries in a college cafeteria setting I don't know ;) But I think she really makes you question everything you read up to the end!

Delanie wrote: "LOL, I had EXACTLY the same reaction the first time I read it--WHERE IS THE FANTASY, MS. DEAN?! I wanted to yell. Then got to the end and was completely blown away. She's very subtle. There ARE..."

I think that is part of the mystery of the fae with this story. What is normal life and what is fae? Well done, and I am not sure that I caught all of the differences. In fact I am sure I did not.

Jalilah, thanks for starting this thread. I am enjoying the discussion.

Delanie wrote: "LOL, I had EXACTLY the same reaction the first time I read it--WHERE IS THE FANTASY, MS. DEAN?! I wanted to yell. Then got to the end and was completely blown away. She's very subtle. There ARE..."

At the time I started this thread I really did think that Tam Lin had perhaps been wrongly categorized and was not even a fantasy book at all!

I think Anne and Odille are not fae , rather like Nick and Robin have been in service to the Fairy Queen. Remember at the end Medeous says "next time there will be two" and Janet took this to be possibly Nick and Robin or Odille and Anne.

WHOAH! You are so right! So based on that assumption, since the tithe HAS to be human, they must have been. So do you think Anne and Odille were around the same time period as the Shakespeare Players? Or have they been around a shorter time, or longer?

So, the Peg thing? Thoughts?

(Sorry, this is the first place I've met someone [albeit online] who has read this, and I am ALL wound up about getting to explore/discuss/expand!)

Delanie wrote: "WHOAH! You are so right! So based on that assumption, since the tithe HAS to be human, they must have been. So do you think Anne and Odille were around the same time period as the Shakespeare Pl..."

Except for the fact that they were mentioned as possibly being sacrificed for the next Tithe, I am not sure at all about Anne and Odille. I am definitely going to re-read. In fact I have renewed my library copy and will start after I finish the other books I have, probably in a few weeks. I have also ordered Jane Yolen's YA version to compare, so if any of you care to join me, we'll definitely have more to discuss!

I went through a period of reading all the Tam Lin versions I could get a hold of. I really enjoyed Jane Yolen's version, but I would say it is a bit more elementary than YA, but I loved her version. It is more traditional to the ballad. I haven't read Susan Cooper's picture book version, but have heard it is beautiful.


by Jane Yolen



by Susan Cooper

Kathy wrote: "I went through a period of reading all the Tam Lin versions I could get a hold of. I really enjoyed Jane Yolen's version, but I would say it is a bit more elementary than YA, but I loved her versio..."

That is what it looks like, in fact it seems most of the Tam Lin versions are YA or younger. This is interesting since in the original ballad Janet gets pregnant. I find it fascinating that something written so long ago has such an atypical heroine. I mean Janet defies orders not to go to Carterhaugh, she gets pregnant, is the one who does the rescuing! I am surprised there are not more adult retellings!

Here is a site that I found that is a website of Tam Lin Ballads. Both music and legends.

http://tam-lin.org

A photo of Caterhaugh



Tam Lin Synopsis
Most variants begin with the warning that Tam Lin collects either a possession or the virginity of any maiden who passes through the forest of Carterhaugh. When a young girl, usually called Janet or Margaret, goes to Carterhaugh and plucks a double rose, Tam appears and asks why she has come without his leave and taken what is his. She states that she owns Carterhaugh, because her father has given it to her.

In most variants, Janet then goes home and discovers that she is pregnant; some variants pick up the story at this point. When taxed about her condition, she declares that her baby's father is an elf whom she will not forsake. In some variants, she is informed of a herb that will induce abortion; in all the variants, when she returns to Carterhaugh and picks a plant, either the same roses as on her earlier visit or the herb, Tam reappears and challenges her action.

She asks him whether he was ever human, either after that reappearance, or in some variants, immediately after their first meeting resulted in her pregnancy. He reveals that he was a mortal man, who, after falling from his horse, was rescued and captured by the Queen of Fairies. Every seven years, the fairies give one of their people as a teind (tithe) to Hell and Tam fears he will become the tithe that night, which is Hallowe'en. He is to ride as part of a company of knights, and Janet will recognise him by the white horse upon which he rides and by other signs. He warns her that the fairies will attempt to make her drop him by turning him into all manner of beasts (see Proteus), but that he will do her no harm. When he is finally turned into a burning coal, she is to throw him into a well, whereupon he will reappear as a naked man and she must hide him. Janet does as she is asked and wins her knight. The Queen of Fairies is angry but acknowledges defeat.

In different variations, Tam Lin is reportedly the grandson of the Laird of Roxburgh, the Laird of Foulis, the Earl of Forbes, or the Earl of Murray. His name also varies between versions (Tam Lin being the most common) as Tom Line, Tomlin, Young Tambling, and Tam-a-line.

(Source: Wikipedia, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tam_Lin)

The Tam Lin Synopsis Kathy posted (thanks!) confirms that although it is set in the Mid-West in the 70s, Pamela Deans version is definitely the closet to the original ballad. I have since read several others and still prefer Dean's. I have also re-read and I still think the pacing is off. It is what keeps it from being a 5 star book. I gave it 4. I loved all the hidden magical stuff but it really bothered me the way Janet's freshmen year takes up 3/4s of the novel.

What is still don't "get" is Janet's relationship with Nick. Did he ever even care for her? Was he using her? Did he want out of Medeous's group? I can't help but wonder what became of Nick and Robin.

Oh my! This is the kind of book that one keeps thinking about long after one has read it. Would it not be great if Dean did a sequel?

It was not a 5-star book for me either. Liked it, but just wasn't quite right for me.

Found this

http://www.goodreads.com/list/show/11...

Two really good versions of Tam Lin that I have come across are An Earthly Knight by Janet McNaughton and Thorn Jack by Katherine Harbour.

Alicia wrote: "Two really good versions of Tam Lin that I have come across are An Earthly Knight by Janet McNaughton and Thorn Jack by Katherine Harbour."

I've read An Earthly Knight and am definitely going to check out Thorn Jack. I love finding new Tam Lin retellings.

Thorn Jack is the first in a trilogy. It's similar in feel to Tithe by Holly Black, which is also loosely based on themes from the ballad