The History Book Club discussion

One of our group members Danna thought it would be fun to have a thread where folks could talk about legends (fact or fiction), folklore, fictional characters like Pope Joan and Mulan (smile).

Or you could talk about different books and movies and talk about how historically accurate they really are or how outlandish they were.

Another possibility is to talk about how history would have been different if certain things had happened rather than others. Like what would have happened if the South had won the war? Or any other time in history if something else happened instead of what did.

The sky is the limit as long as the conversation is civil, respectful, clean and fun. All of our rules and guidelines must be followed and citations are required here too; book cover, author's photo and author's link.

DISCLAIMER: The History Book Club does not vouch for the authenticity of this thread - posts could be fictional, folklore, and not true. This thread is just for fun.

Probably one of my favorite legendary(?) character is Robin Hood. I remember seeing the film with Errol Flynn and the tv series with Richard Greene.

I can even remember the theme song:(Just another piece of useless trivia in the memory banks.)

"Robin Hood, Robin Hood
Riding through the glen
Robin Hood, Robin Hood
With his band of men.
Takes from the bad, gives to the good
Robin Hood, Robin Hood"

The book cited below is one of hundreds that tells the tale of Mr. Hood and his Merrie Men but it is one that has had some popularity.

The Adventures of Robin Hood

by Roger Lancelyn Green

Synopsis

Robin Hood is champion of the poor and oppressed against the cruel power of Prince John and the brutal Sheriff of Nottingham. He takes refuge with his Merrie Men in the vast Sherwood Forest, emerging time and again to outwit his enemies with daring and panache. This classic version brings sense and clarity as well as excitement to the varied myths, ballads and legends about Robin's adventures.(

Oh dear, I now have that theme song running through my head and I remember the music too (smile) - I seem to remember the television theme song I think.

I know because it is happening to me now....Robin Hood, Robin Hood...........yikes!!!!
Have they every really decided if there was a Robin Hood or someone whose deeds resembled those of Robin? I have read a bunch about it but never came to a conclusion.

And here it is in all of its glory: (Jill, for your listening pleasure)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2w7ALM...

You devil :0) .......now I won't be able to go to sleep because this will be running through my head!!!

My favorite Robin Hood movie is ROBIN AND MARIAN with Sean Connery and Audrey Hepburn as the couple in their later years . . . great love story!

Tomerobber wrote: "My favorite Robin Hood movie is ROBIN AND MARIAN with Sean Connery and Audrey Hepburn as the couple in their later years . . . great love story!"

I loved that one!

My what if contribution . . . I've been buying up books on Eisenhower since he's been selected in the last pole as choice for the next candidate in our discussion series and found 2+ hr. program from American Experience on YouTube that I had never seen.

What if Francis Gary Powers had not been shot down by the USSR after there had been such a successful meeting between Eisenhower and Kruschev and Eisenhower got to visit the USSR as planned?

What would have happened if that event had been successful? Would there not have been the Arms Race and buildup of nuclear weapons? A missed opportunity . . .

Great alternative history questions - I hope somebody jumps in and starts discussing.

This is one of the great legends of West Virginia and is right up there with Bigfoot for southern Appalachian people.


A Mothman: The Facts Behind the Legend

by Donnie Sergent Jr. (no photo)

Synopsis:

On the night of November 15, 1996, two adventurous youngcouples drove into the TNT area north of Point Pleasant, WV. What they saw in the countryside that night has evolved into one of the great mysteries ofall time: just who--or what--was the Mothman?This book will answer many questions regarding just what those couples saw outside the abandoned North Power Plant that night. Culled from a variety of sources, the materials presented inside are not conjecture--the authors are careful not to cross the line between fact and fiction--leaving any decisions regarding the truth behind the Mothman legend solely up to the reader.

The text features eyewitness accounts, newspaper clippings, and previously unpublished information.

It is sure to be of interest to readers as a tie-in with the January 2002 release of Sony Pictures' "The Mothman Prophecies" starring Richard Gere.

___________________________________________________

This large statue stands in the downtown area of Point Pleasant, WV where the Mothman "appears" periodically.

Re: the post above. One of the prophecies of the Mothman as interpreted by the author of this book, was the collapse of the Silver Bridge at Point Pleasant, WV. Today marks the 46th anniversary of the actual collapse of that bridge which claimed 46 lives. Coincidence or over active imagination of the author? You make the call.

The Mothman Prophecies

by John A. Keel

Synopsis:

West Virginia, 1966. For thirteen months the town of Point Pleasant is gripped by a real-life nightmare that culminates in a tragedy that makes headlines around the world. Strange occurrences and sightings, including a bizarre winged apparition that becomes known as the Mothman, trouble this ordinary American community. Mysterious lights are seen moving across the sky. Domestic animals are found slaughtered and mutilated. And journalist John Keel, arriving to investigate the freakish events, soon finds himself an integral part of an eerie and unfathomable mystery...

My favorite legend is King Arthur, with Merlin and Excaliber.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0082348/

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1199099/?...

I would like to know what is beneath all of those beautiful and historic buildings in Washington DC. From the works of Dan Brown to popular movies like National Treasure there are incredible tales of under ground networks and secret chambers that were used by our former leaders. So what really lies beneath our most sacred political sites? Tunnels and artifacts or just good ole Mother Earth? Anyone?

It used to be a swamp. I am guessing not a lot.

The speculations offered here on the Gary Power shoot down make no sense because they fail to take into account Soviet motivations.

The Soviets were on a collision course with the U.S. in their competition to extend their spheres of influence. The politburo felt the need to militarily confront the U.S. so that the Soviets could, in their minds, show they could stand toe-to-toe with the U.S., and were the power of the future. This trend, recognized in the State Department, resulted in the Cuban Missile Crisis.

Power's shoot down, at best, was a pothole in the history highway.

Great drama, though.

I do admit I hate to post this, but it is applicable to this thread...

Abominable Science: Origins of the Yeti, Nessie, and other Famous Cryptids

Daniel Loxton

Synopsis:
This book covers the origin of Bigfoot, Lock Ness Monster, the Yeti, and other sea-creatures. It was enlightening and somewhat disappointing, not because the book was bad, but because of the things you hope/wish really existed, well, Loxton explained where the myths really started from. The conmen, movie inspirations, and the myths with the wink-wink-nod-nod. It's a interesting read, and a surprisingly heavy book weight-wise.

I did enjoy the book, Loxton didn't 100% slam the door on some of these creatures, but I think at least one of them is pretty much 100% fake, but I won't tell which one.

Looks like it is applicable to this thread and thank you very much Marc.

Does anyone know if it's true that Chief Crazy Horse had light curly hair?

I started reading~ which is historical fiction,but I was blown away to start reading in this book that the son of CCH had blonde curly hair and his mother called him Curly! I had never heard or even imagined such a thing and I am from the west[Idaho].

I did a search and the results said it is CCH himself and not a son who had light curly hair,but there are no known photos of him.

I have no idea why the author-Sam Morton,changed the facts for his book to make it the son with the light curly hair,but now I'm just curious and wondering if anyone knows of any books that mention this? I find it hard to believe that a full blooded Souix could have such hair!!!

Hello: I found this for you. "There was never a photograph taken or a likeness made from first hand witness of Crazy Horse," so said Mari Sandoz in the biography, Crazy Horse, the Strange Man of the Oglala.

Her book was published in 1942. At the time there was little reason to doubt her words. From eyewitness descriptions, we know that Crazy Horse was five feet, eight inches tall, lithe and sinewy, with a lean face and a thin, sharp nose. His countenance was of quiet dignity, but morose, dogged, tenacious and melancholy. It was said that he always wore a white buckskin shirt and dark blue leggins, with two feathers hanging loose in his hair and his long braids wrapped in beaver fur almost the color of his hair.



He was known throughout his life as "the light-skinned warrior," In his youth he was called "Curly" for his light, loose hair, the "color of a young prairie chick." In The Killing of Chief Crazy Horse (1976, A.H. Clark Co. of Glendale, California) is a reproduction of an alleged portrait of Crazy Horse. The book was a collaborative effort of Robert A. Clark of Spokane, Washington, and Carroll Friswold.

Thank you Helene,sounds interesting.
I will have to check that book out.I did find this statement odd "his long braids wrapped in beaver fur almost the color of his hair." I never saw or heard of a blonde beaver,either!

Thanks Christine and Helene. Don't forget to use proper citation:

by Sam Morton

by Mari Sandoz (no photo)

by Robert A. Clark (no photo)

Christine wrote: " I never saw or heard of a blonde beaver,either! "

I wish I could click a like button on that comment!! LOL!

From Michael:

What are the best alternate history "FANTASY" books (deal with materials from the past, present and also future) you have read that the time line spans from past to present and from present to future or in any sequence (necessarily including future)?

PS: Cloud Atlas is not about alternate history right?

by David Mitchell

Alternate histories and all sorts of "what-ifs" are wonderful to contemplate.

I was trying to remember one such science fiction novel, but could recall neither the author nor the title. It involves a Native American in World War II who traverses a dimensional warp in Romania and ends up in a war between Blodland (England) and its other-worldly counterpart to Germany. But no rubber, because the Americas were not continents; instead, a chain of moderately small islands where no rubber plants evolved. Landing planes on wooden wheels is not recommended.

I've enjoyed some of the works of Heinlein where he discusses alternate universes, some of which match the stories of our fiction.

Robert Heinlein (no photo)

But my more intense interest in myths and legends involves those which may be based on real events.

From the age of 10, I have been fascinated with the legend of Atlantis. In high school, I even wrote a paper in 3rd-year Spanish class on the Basques and their relationship with the legendary lost island empire. What's amazing is that there has been a great deal of scientific and historical evidence gathered in support of Atlantis, but so many scientists treat the topic as the secular equivalent of "blasphemy."

One researcher (Dr. Greg Little) found ruins off the coast of Bimini Island, not far from the Bimini "road" breakwater. He invited a friend at a nearby, Florida university to investigate, but the archaeologist refused, because it would jeopardize his career.

Science by ego and intimidation! In my researches, I've found it to be surprisingly common amongst scientists. Michael Cremo's fascinating search of the scientific literature, Forbidden Archaeology, comes to mind.

Michael A. Cremo

The professional "forbidden zone" of Valsequillo, Mexico is another such travesty. I've seen one YouTube video on the topic and it makes me hungry to read a book on the events surrounding the Valsequillo finds.

Christopher Hardaker (no photo)

It's sad to see grown men let their egos make wimps of them. The problem, I suppose, is that ego has the nasty habit of tricking its owner into thinking that they are their ego, thus the person feels all of their ego's vulnerabilities.

Such behavior is easy to understand, if you've been around the block a few times. James Gleick, American author and journalist, warned us about such things. In his bestselling book, Chaos: Making a New Science, he wrote, "Shallow ideas can be assimilated; ideas that require people to reorganize their picture of the world provoke hostility."

James Gleick

It's obvious to me, now, that he was talking about ego -- what Buddhism and Kabbalah describe as the source of selfishness. It is what Yeshua described as that which hungers to be "first" and is cured by acceptance of being "last" (humility).

And this brings me to one other fascinating topic: the wisdom hidden in the Bible. Take Noah's Flood, for instance. American clairvoyant, Edgar Cayce, once said that the Flood occurred 28,000 BC.

Edgar Cayce

A look in science reveals that one species went extinct at that time. Curiously, that species resembles the description of the "daughters of men" mentioned in Genesis 6 and opens the door to understanding the possible purpose that was protected by the Flood. Was the Flood a real, world-wide inundation? Who knows? But it may well have been a real event for which the word "water" was only a convenient metaphor. Then again, it may have been a real, water flood. One species seems to have paid the ultimate price. And the movie Noah may now need to be redone.

Thanks for that interesting post, Rod.

You're welcome, Jill. History seems to become more and more interesting the more I learn.

Harry Turtledove has written several fictional alternate history series. I think he's very good at coming up with legitimate "what if?" questions, and explores them with a solid grounding in history. They're sometimes fascinating. His weakness, however, is characters. Very flat. Oh, and he feels he has to summarize too much each time he returns to particular characters.

In short stories, Mike Resnick has edited several anthologies that are fun. Some of the stories are better than others, but if you like to explore alternate possibilities, you can visit many possible worlds in "Alternate Presidents," "Alternate Tyrants" and Alternate Kennedys."

In non-fiction, there's nothing like getting serious historians to tell about key points in history that could have gone more than one way. That's what Robert Cowley has done in collecting essays by historians who "imagine what might have been."

Harry Turtledove

by Mike Resnick

by Mike Resnick

by Mike Resnick

by Robert Cowley

by Robert Cowley

Here is the grandaddy of all the theories about ancient aliens. This book caused quite a stir when it was released.

Chariot of the Gods

by Erich von Däniken

Synopsis

Erich von Daniken's Chariots of the Gods is a work of monumental importance--the first book to introduce the shocking theory that ancient Earth had been visited by aliens. This world-famous bestseller has withstood the test of time, inspiring countless books and films. But here is where it all began--von Daniken's startling theories of our earliest encounters with alien worlds, based upon his lifelong studies of ancient ruins, lost cities, potential spaceports, and a myriad of hard scientific facts that point to extraterrestrial intervention in human history. Most incredible of all, however, is von Daniken's theory that we ourselves are the descendants of these galactic pioneers--and the archeological discoveries that prove it...
* An alien astronaut preserved in a pyramid
* Thousand-year-old spaceflight navigation charts
* Computer astronomy from Incan and Egyptian ruins
* A map of the land beneath the ice cap of Antarctica
* A giant spaceport discovered in the Andes
Includes remarkable photos that document mankind's first contact with aliens at the dawn of civilization.

Wow, Jill, I remember seeing some documentary on cable many years ago talking about this. I'm sure it inspires many Sci Fi stories. I'm not sure it works for me, though.

Doesn't work for me either, Bryan but it was an extremely popular book. I don't know if the author actually believed what he wrote or was just causing controversy. He surely did the latter!

This is the legend that won't go away. This author is a believer......are you?

Bigfoot

by B. Ann Slate (no photo)

Synopsis:

Many people scoff at the reports of a huge manlike creature prowling America's wilderness. Yet hundreds of giant footprints have been seen. . .and authenticated.

For the first time, here is the amazing truth about the mighty Sasquatch--its incredible size--and its unexplained behavior. Is it a throwback? Does it hold a special key to man's future? Here are the true facts, facts you should know, about the controversial creature that may be lurking near your town--at this very moment.

That one has been around for awhile but have not heard much lately.

We know that a man hijacked a plane and then jumped out with $200,000. After that the story begins to take on mythical proportions. One of the great mysteries of the 20th century.

Skyjack: The Hunt for D.B.Cooper

by Geoffrey Gray

Synopsis:

“I have a bomb here and I would like you to sit by me.”

That was the note handed to a stewardess by a mild-mannered passenger on a Northwest Orient flight in 1971. It was the start of one of the most astonishing whodunits in the history of American true crime: how one man extorted $200,000 from an airline, then parachuted into the wilds of the Pacific Northwest and into oblivion. D. B. Cooper’s case has become the stuff of legend and obsessed and cursed his pursuers with everything from bankruptcy to suicidal despair. Now with SKYJACK, journalist Geoffrey Gray delves into this unsolved mystery uncovering new leads in the infamous case.

Starting with a tip from a private investigator into a promising suspect (a Cooper lookalike, Northwest employee, and trained paratrooper), Gray is propelled into the murky depths of a decades-old mystery, conducting new interviews and obtaining a first-ever look at Cooper’s FBI file. Beginning with a heartstopping and unprecedented recreation of the crime itself, from cabin to cockpit to tower, and uncanny portraits of characters who either chased Cooper or might have committed the crime, including Ralph Himmelsbach, the most dogged of FBI agents, who watched with horror as a criminal became a counter-culture folk hero who supposedly shafted the system…Karl Fleming, a respected reporter whose career was destroyed by a Cooper scoop that was a scam…and Barbara (nee Bobby) Dayton, a transgendered pilot who insisted she was Cooper herself.

With explosive new information and exclusive access to FBI files and forensic evidence, SKYJACK reopens one of the great cold cases of the 20th century

Michael I am sorry - no self promotion

This might be my new favorite (or least favorite) legend.

Say the name William Howard Taft, and people will certainly first think of him getting stuck in a bathtub. In the White House. A co-worker of mine even suggested that Taft died in a bathtub.

For all his troubles--including his souring relationship with his predecessor Teddy Roosevelt and his pitiful showing in the three-way election of 1912--Taft was not a horrible president. That he is remembered for a bathtub story breaks my heart, but he would likely find some humor in it.

Unfortunately, historians mostly agree that the bathtub story is fit for the rubbish bin, with the only evidence being the word of White House usher Ike Hoover, who used it in a book two decades later.

Reports from the time suggest that bathtubs were custom-made for Taft in the White House and elsewhere, making the tale hold even less water.

Sadly, the two-volume biography I recently finished on Taft did not address it (Henry F. Pringle's Life and Times, published not long after Hoover's memoir). It did provide an old photo from just after Taft left his assingment in the Philippines, showing several children sitting inside the bathtub Taft had used, but it provided no other context for the photo.

Most damning of all for the legend, for me, is that Taft was not one to shy away from talk about his girth, and even poked fun at himself about his weight from time to time. If the bathtub event had really happened, I believe he would be among the first people to promote it!

The Life and Times of William Howard Taft

by Henry F. Pringle [No photo]

42 Years in the White House

by Irwin Hood Hoover