Miévillians discussion

Ok, guys, I'm going blind with this one! This specific group discussion looks like it's going to be a bit of a free-for-all, which is perhaps not a bad thing, eh?

Mievillians belongs to all of its members, so, guys, if you've read any of Railsea yet and have any thoughts, go for it, say what your first impressions are.

I've barely started, and my first thoughts were that it seems a bit dark for a book tagged as YA.

Since many of us have not read much yet, let's go about 60 pages at a time to avoid the spoiler thing.

Allen, you've just read 100 pages- any thoughts? ..and Derek, you've read it before?

Any other members who have started by now?

In my original review, I said "Despite being marketed as a Young Adult novel, I don't see it. The protagonist is, presumably, a youngish adult. Not so young that it seems inappropriate that he frequents pubs, though, and he could in any case be fully adult without anything changing.

So, I agree - not very YA. It's pretty much required of YA stories that they feature YAs, but just because the protagonist is young doesn't make it YA.

Oh, damn. "Frequents pubs" is already a spoiler on my first post...

I'm going with Traveller and Derek on the YA bit. Struggling to understand why - very adult in terms of action, themes, etc. And here, at least in my part of the states, where we have rampant school-library-censoring parents, I'm surprised it's making the rounds. Maybe the YA is for the slightly less than adult reading level - although admittedly I have already had to look up a couple new words.

Anyway. First thoughts? Thoroughly enjoyable. After the usual first couple of chapters of getting my head wrapped around CM's invented reality - no water, just a sea of rails - it settled down and I picked up the pace. Typical witty, staccato, to-the-point narrative with invented words. Don't really like the ampersand, but beginning to not notice. (There's supposedly a reason.) And loved the different sounds a train makes that he termed "clatternames."

We find out that Sham is meandering, sort of aimless like many high school graduates or just-started-college students, and I felt a sympathy pang of regret for not "joining up" with the Navy to see the world or taking a few months to hitchhike Europe. I thought CM summed it up nicely on page 20: "Sham sat on deck, his legs dangling over the rushing dirt. He waited for epiphany." So there, his character appeals to all of us, for no matter our age, aren't we all waiting for that moment?

Since this has been compared to Moby Dick, I wonder, since I have never read it (insert gasp here), what others who have read it think about the parallels? Obviously there's one with Captain Naphi. How about Sham? Or the doctor?

I also liked the vagueness of whether this is earth or another world like Embassytown. The passage about good air and bad air, the "upsky" made me wonder if this is earth destroyed/millenia in the fture, and whether we will get into a dystopian or apocalyptic diatribe later.

I'm sure there's a lot to talk about concerning the first kill, the Medes and train versus sailing ship comparisons, the weird creatures, etc., and of course all the names for moles - I love moldywarpe - but for now I'm just thrilled to be experiencing another Mieville world (and world of prose), and wondering what you all think!

Maybe the "YA" is specifically intended to throw the "school-library-censoring parents" off the track?

I think I had the same reaction as you the first time I read it - awkward start with the weirdness, but it settles in and feels as cosy as, well, train travel, fairly soon. I never did get to liking the ampers&s. If he'd just replaced every single full-word 'and', I'd never have noticed (which, I presume, is why he didn't) but replacing any string of a-n-d was annoying.

I'm a poor person to comment on the parallels with Moby Dick - I really disliked it, and had to pretty much force myself through it. The parallels are certainly there, but it's obvious Miéville likes Melville much more than I do.

Oh, good, I am not alone with regard to Moby Dick, never managed to get past chapter 2 though not for lack of trying.

Awesome intro, you guys! Ugh yes, the &'s! It struck me as bad editing and I wondered if my copy was the only one with them.

I've always avoided Moby Dick bc I adore whales, but Railsea has me contemplating having a look at it out of curiosity to see the parallels.

I've also been wondering how much Sham's interest in salvaging has to do with the way his father had died. Maybe that will came in more strongly later in the book, so let me not jump the gun.

..but yeah, maybe the YA part also comes in bc the book seems to be at least in some degree a bildungsroman.

LOL. There's an explanation for the &s much later.

I wouldn't avoid Moby Dick for the love of whales - the whales give as good as they get - but I'd avoid it for being poor literature (except that the literati all seem to think it isn't...). I bet I'd have enjoyed it more if I had read Railsea first.

"Bildungsroman?" Explain that to the YAs and you're sure to scare them off!

Allen wrote: "I also liked the vagueness of whether this is earth or another world like Embassytown. The passage about good air and bad air, the "upsky" made me wonder if this is earth destroyed/millenia in the fture, and whether we will get into a dystopian or apocalyptic diatribe later..."

Yeah, I also wondered -initially I thought it was a dystopian earth future, what with the pollution and all the wrecks to salvage and so on, but the four layers and the creatures adapted to live in the poisonous sky made me wonder.

I really like Sham's attitude re the animal fights the people do for sport. Just made me realize again how much I love CM. XD

I don't want to discuss too much yet, though, since I know many members haven't started with the book yet, and some are waiting for library copies to arrive and so on.

Derek wrote: "LOL. There's an explanation for the &s much later.

I wouldn't avoid Moby Dick for the love of whales - the whales give as good as they get - but I'd avoid it for being poor literature (except that..."

Hmm, that was part of the point of what I disliked about it... where have you ever seen a sperm whale attacking humans? It's just silly, making them out to be monsters while back at the ranch, the real reason you kill them are commercial reasons.

I doubt anybody alive has seen a sperm whale attack a ship, but back in the days of hunting whales with hand-held harpoons, most species of whales would fight back. They still would, except that whale hunting progressed to the point that the whales never had a chance. So, it's not so farfetched to believe that Moby would have a special hate for a certain ship.

I loved that this opening might be difficult for a YA reader and that it would be something more unpredictable for my son to read. Unfortunately the mere mention of Moby Dick put him off..!

Sarah wrote: "I loved that this opening might be difficult for a YA reader and that it would be something more unpredictable for my son to read. Unfortunately the mere mention of Moby Dick put him off..!"

I can certainly understand that. If I hadn't already forced myself to read Moby Dick, it would have put me off. As it was, I'd recently read The Scar which I thought was far too Moby-Dickish (yes, that's a word! ... Now.) and was reluctant to tackle Railsea.

Traveller wrote: "Awesome intro, you guys! Ugh yes, the &'s! It struck me as bad editing and I wondered if my copy was the only one with them.

I've always avoided Moby Dick bc I adore whales, but Railsea has me c..."

Okay, two confessions. One, when I got the sample copy sometime last year on my kindle, I thought all the &s were electronic mistakes - they're frequently used in html coding, for example, and I started to get annoyed. Only a few internet searches later did I realize.

Two, I thought I had enjoyed a decent amount of literature classes in my day, but I had to look up Bildungsroman to find out it was a coming of age story. Trav, do you steal Mieville's thesaurus? :)

I really like Sham's attitude re the animal fights the people do for sport.

Yeah, I really liked that too. Classic hardened sailor/soldier/ghetto-er versus the soft-hearted nube, but China does it so well. I'm thinking we'll see more of that and it will come into a serious part of the character/plot development later. (view spoiler)[And I loved the pet bat, but that's probably skipping ahead past chapter 10. (hide spoiler)]

Speaking of which, I've noticed the chapters are rather short, and just ran across one that's a total of two pages. Maybe more pages per topic thread? Do it by parts? Just a thought ...

Derek wrote: "Sarah wrote: "I loved that this opening might be difficult for a YA reader and that it would be something more unpredictable for my son to read. Unfortunately the mere mention of Moby Dick put him ..."

Now that you mention it, The Scar was a bit Moby-Dickish (loving the word), considering the creature involved ... but I never really got there because I got so caught up in the "armada" and the lovers and wrapping my brain around the magic/mystic parts.

Anyway, wonder if that switch to a hand-held harpoon in the mole takedown was a nod to the old whalers?

Also, I kinda got the impression that using moles in place of whales was CM's way of subtly (or not so subtly) pointing out the folly of our past ways - taking a creature so harmless, just like a whale, and forcing us to read as people invade their territory and slaughter them. Using the absurd to drive a point home? Or is that just me reading way to much into a fun YA book :)

You're probably partly right about the reasons for using moles - though I think it's also partly just that moles really do dig tunnels very quickly.

As a non-biologist who's spent far too many years working with biologists, and taxonomists in particular, I thought I'd reflect on the names used here.

Talpa ferox rex is not a 'proper' scientific name, but Talpa is the genus of the largest number of species of moles. ferox is a very common species name (in other genuses), simply meaning "ferocious", and rex, of course, is the king of ferocious moles.

"baby bottletop moldywarpes & moonpanther moldywarpes & wriggly tarfoot moldywarpes" seems like they may all relate to cetaceans, but only because "bottletop" makes me think of bottlenose dolphins.

Does anyone have a guess as to the origin of "moldywarpe"? Google only apparently recognizes it in conjunction with Miéville, so I presume he used it first. "Mole des warps"? "Mole of the [rail] lines?"

Allen wrote: "Speaking of which, I've noticed the chapters are rather short, and just ran across one that's a total of two pages. Maybe more pages per topic thread? Do it by parts? Just a thought ... ."
There are 10 "Parts" and the first part is from chapter 1-10. So I initially thought we could maybe do it in parts yes, though 10 threads would probably be a bit much. How about we divide part 2 up a bit and go up to...how about the end of chapter 19 for this first thread then?

My paper book from the library has 375 pages, and end of chapter 2 would be page 89. Then we could perhaps divide the discussion into 4 parts- that sound good to you?

Yeah, I thought he was using the moles as a 'land' counterpart for whales. Since the Railsea is standing in for the real sea, he is of course using all sorts of land animals instead of sea animals. ...and it would appear, bats in lieu of birds.

Sarah wrote: "I loved that this opening might be difficult for a YA reader and that it would be something more unpredictable for my son to read. Unfortunately the mere mention of Moby Dick put him off..!"

Well, it's adult enough for adults to read, so you might have more fun out of it than he, Sarah!

In fact, I think adults will catch the subtle satire better. I like the little digs at the captain's "philosophy" for instance.... :D

Derek wrote: "As a non-biologist who's spent far too many years working with biologists, and taxonomists in particular, I thought I'd reflect on the names used here.

Talpa ferox rex is not a 'proper' scientific..."

Good catch! I love all these little special touches that China makes, and I really enjoy the illustrations in this novel. Quite a talented guy, yes?

Bottletop also made me think of bottlenose dolphin, so these are all very fun little touches.

Traveller wrote: " ...and it would appear, bats in lieu of birds. "

I was going to say, "not really", since the first "birds" we're introduced to, iirc, are penguins. Then I realized that "penguin" is probably just a word they use — possibly even with it's original meaning from Welsh, "white head". The description we get of the penguins swimming in the dirt makes them sound more like a duck-billed platypus than a penguin.

Other notes:

On this first trip, the Medes is travelling Northward into warmer climes. The reverse of what we can expect is normal for most readers (simply based on the fact that Earth has a lot more land & population North of the equator).

Sham's an orphan, & was raised by relatives. Voam was a "relative on his mother's side by a thread of unsnarlable connections". That sentence made me stop dead — wouldn't we normally think someone who's relationship to us is unfathomable is connected by a snarled thread? As always, I'm certain CM intended to say exactly what he said.

The upsky made Allen "wonder if this is earth destroyed/millenia in the fture, and whether we will get into a dystopian or apocalyptic diatribe later." It seems to me that this really is a future Earth — though the biophysics of the railsea don't seem possible — but I don't think we created the upsky. "That high, the air suddenly goes dinge-coloured, & more often than not roils with toxic cloud. That is the border of the upsky, in which hunt oddities, ravenous alien flyers." This, & the corresponding description of highland creatures: "poison-breathing parvenu predators", makes me think that "alien" is literal, here. It's also interesting that the upsky is not always cloudy, which is what I thought the first time I read this.

Yes, China likes to upend the conventional, to "subvert" as the postmodern literature people would call it.

Okay people, it seems like four or five threads would be a good number for this discussion, eh? So here is the next thread, whenever you're ready to move on and comment there: http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...

I always despair the first few chapters in Mieville's books cause it takes a while to land firmly in his universe, I feel dizzy and lost the first chapters and often it is the small details that will reel me in and make me love the books. Here is was the simple messenger kite, something familiar I can wrap my head around. So I say 'oh, let's get on with it then' and settle down for a few more chapters and then I am hooked.

Jeanette (jema) wrote: "I always despair the first few chapters in Mieville's books cause it takes a while to land firmly in his universe, I feel dizzy and lost the first chapters and often it is the small details that wi..."

How true! For instance, I hated the ampersands to start out with this one, but now I don't even notice them anymore...

Traveller, sounds good on the thread divisions. I'll catch up in the other threads as soon as I can - traveling a bit these past couple of days.

Derek, something for your taxonomists from Wikipedia regarding the eastern mole and "moldywarpe" ... "The first part of the common name, "eastern", refers to the species' range, and the second part, "mole" is from the Middle English molle which in turn is related to another Middle English word, mold-warpe, which means "earth-thrower." So, Chaucer meets Mieville :)

Oh, and I found out in a later chapter about the upsky - he was surprisingly blunt about it.

Jeanette (jema) wrote: So I say 'oh, let's get on with it then' and settle down for a few more chapters and then I am hooked.

Jeannette, love that! Exactly how I read Mieville!

"Chaucer meets Mieville"

Yay! I always knew that when I didn't actually understand a Miéville word it was my ignorance, and not the fact that he was just making it up! That one find is enough to make re-reading this worthwhile to me (but there's so much more).

I know what you mean. I googled moldywarpe, but just Mieville stuff came up so I thought he had made it up. It was only later when I researched moles a bit that I found it as a surprise halfway down the wikipedia page!

Also, I found it hard to believe that mole pelts would be sought after, even in CM's world. Then I found this gem:

"Queen Alexandra, the wife of Edward VII of the United Kingdom, ordered a mole-fur garment to start a fashion that would create a demand for mole fur, thereby turning what had been a serious pest problem in Scotland into a lucrative industry for the country."

If we had just half the trivial knowledge he seems to have, think of the stories we could write!

LOL. Everybody tells me I'm a veritable font of trivial knowledge (actually, they usually say "useless"), but I'm nowhere near China's level.

Joining late - as usual. (I have reasons! (a) The downside of borrowing books from the library instead of buying them is that it's sometimes hard to get your hands on a copy again in time, and (b) work and a licensing test I just took have eaten quite significant chunks of what I thought was supposed to be my 'free time').

Derek wrote: "I'm a poor person to comment on the parallels with Moby Dick - I really disliked it, and had to pretty much force myself through it. The parallels are certainly there, but it's obvious Miéville likes Melville much more than I do."

He has to! After all, they share an almost-identical name, right? Gotta love your almost-namesake.


As for 'Moby-Dick' - I've read that book twice (age 9 and age 28, to be exact), and so I can pretend to be an authority here ;)
The parallels Miéville draws are of the obvious sort, the type that's easy to spot for people who have not read 'Moby-Dick' but have heard about the themes of that book (which is, I think, unavoidable for most people; it'd be hard to find anyone completely unfamiliar with the premise of Melville's book, I think). So we have the general shape of a quest consisting of a hunt for a large magnificant animal that is a source of obsession for the captain who has lost a limb (and quite a bit of pride!) to it - as well as the idea that it's the obsession that matters and not the whale (or in this case, the mole) itself.

And I love that 'moldywarpe' was not actually made up by Miéville.

Pretend authorities are the best kind, imo! (in literary criticism — not perhaps in a Doctor)

Ok, a little late to the party this time. It took almost three weeks for the library to get the book in, then to collect it a 200km round trip drive. I am so glad I am enjoying it.

Most of what I might have said about this first section has already been mentioned, but I would add I like that because the names are unfamiliar, I cannot tell any one character's gender upon introduction and that it seems to be almost equally possible to be either male or female. Also whenever 'men' might be used 'ordinarily', CM says women & men and both genders really do appear to be up for any job description.

Welcome, Ruth! Better late than never.

Ruth wrote: "Ok, a little late to the party this time. It took almost three weeks for the library to get the book in, then to collect it a 200km round trip drive. I am so glad I am enjoying it.

Most of what ..."

Yes, CM is a wonderful with that. He seems pretty egalitarian, he isn't so feminist as to appear unnatural; to me he sets a good example of how to be nice and balanced and fair regarding the whole gender issue.

Nice to see you on board, Ruth! I've been having so little time to read lately, that you'll soon catch up with me at the very least.

I don't know what happened to Joseph and the other people who said they were reading along, since so far it's just been me, Allen, Derek and Nataliya, so, hopefully you will have lots left to say as you progress to the next threads. :)

In chapter 12, he writes "Manihiki … & the democracy of which it crowed so loud was a sham, they added, in hoc to money."

Is this a typo, or does CM know something else I don't? The usual phrase is "in hock", & the latin "in hoc" doesn't seem relevant. That Miéville might have deliberately used 'hoc', incorrectly, just doesn't bear thinking.

Derek wrote: "In chapter 12, he writes "Manihiki … & the democracy of which it crowed so loud was a sham, they added, in hoc to money."

Is this a typo, or does CM know something else I don't? The usual phrase i..."

You're right, Mieville simply does not make mistakes when it comes to that kind of thing, though he does love to play around with words and meanings, & to subvert things. So I'm guessing he altered the original word for some reason which might take a bit of sleuthing to discover.

& of course, I mean 'typo' in the true sense: that of a mistake introduced after the author has finished his work.