Miévillians discussion

Hey guys, a nice split for the second thread would be (in my book from pages 90 to 184) to the end of part three, which ends with Chapter 41. So, have at it, whenever you're ready.

I love it. He said "Siblinghood" instead of "brotherhood". I can't believe I have a GR friend who actually accused CM of being sexist. He is the probably the most egalitarian author that I've read.

Well, everything's sexist, isn't it :)

I once heard someone say, in all seriousness, "if someone says a thing is racist, then it is." On that line, someone's always going to find something racist or sexist if they look for it. I'd say, though, that Railsea might be the hardest for anyone to find sexism in. There seem to be no gender roles on the mole trains. It's not always obvious what sex any particular character is when first introduced, and I was surprised this time around that the captain of the Medes was a woman — I'd completely forgotten, because her gender is irrelevant.

This guy has such a cool sense of humor!
Pitted & oxidized mechanisms from the Heavy Metal Age; shards from the Plastozoic; printouts on thin rubber & ancient ordinator screens from the Computational Era: all choice arche-salvage, from astoundingly long ago. & the less interesting stuff, too, that discarded or lost anything from a few hundred years ago to yesterday—nu-salvage.


Also, this book is very obviously meta-fiction. (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/meta...)
For instance the bit about narrative.

I love the playful way that Mieville engages us in this novel. So far it seems to me his most playful work yet?

I agree. Something of a blend of those two definitions — definitely "playful" & definitely "discusses, describes, or analyzes a work of fiction" (Moby Dick).

& I've been struck by his constant use of double negatives.

This section begins in the Vivacious Weevil, where recently returned Captains hold "ruminatively forth about the bloodworm, the mole rat, the termite queen or angry rex rabbit or badger or the mole, the great mole..."

One thing I've wondered: in our world, the badger is by far the largest of those. There's a biological phenomenon known as "Island Dwarfism" in which species restricted to island habitats tend to breed to a smaller size. Is Miéville inverting this to an "Ocean Gigantism"?

Still, dangerous rabbits seem even sillier than Moby Dick moles. I mean, Monty Python!

An onlooker says "I come for all the good philosophies.... Of course. Naphi & Mocker-Jack, Mole of Many Meanings."
 "What's her philosophy, then?" Sham said.
 "Ain't you listening? Mocker-Jack means everything."

Please tell me that this is a tweak to the noses of all the literati who think that Moby Dick is ... well, about everything.
——
Why the sudden introduction of the narrator in Chapter 21, with stories of stories: "mise-en-abymes."
——
We hear, "salvors" call themselves "the Diffuse College...; the Scattered Siblinghood [again, Trav]; ... the Universal Diggers.

That last sounds like a shout out to Miéville's Marxist roots. The Diggers "were a group of Protestant English agrarian communists,... who became known as Diggers, because of their attempts to farm on common land."

Derek wrote: "I agree. Something of a blend of those two definitions — definitely "playful" & definitely "discusses, describes, or analyzes a work of fiction" (Moby Dick).

& I've been struck by his constant use..."

Agreed, very playful ... you might say I'm really digging this novel.

Ouch! China wouldn't stoop to such low puns.

Derek wrote: "Please tell me that this is a tweak to the noses of all the literati who think that Moby Dick is ... well, about everything...."

I have not a shred of doubt in my mind that indeed it is a 'dig' (sorry :D) at the much touted 'philosopical' import of Moby Dick. This is why I said that as far as I'm concerned, Mieville obviously wrote this novel with a huge tongue in his cheek...
This is part of the playfulness to me;-note that he makes these little digs at all the moling (whaling) captains.

"Why the sudden introduction of the narrator in Chapter 21, with stories of stories: "mise-en-abymes."

This is one of the metafictive aspects I was talking about earlier. Post-modern fiction seems to have, as a requirement, these days, that it must have metafictive, self-referential qualities, and I'm not sure if CM is putting it in just to poke fun at the genre, but it does seem to enrich the novel and its setting as well, don't you think?

I didn't really feel that this insertion of the narrator was "enriching", as I found it quite jarring, but the next one worked for me.

Derek wrote: "I didn't really feel that this insertion of the narrator was "enriching", as I found it quite jarring, but the next one worked for me."

I did that too. The second one felt like it fit in more. Should have realized from the very first sentence ... "A meat Island! No. Back a bit." ... that a narrator would be inserting observations in here and there, but I had forgotten about that by then.

Traveller wrote: "Post-modern fiction seems to have, as a requirement, these days, that it must have metafictive, self-referential qualities"

This is the first time I've heard about metafiction, so thanks for the link. In that light, I bet you're right. We'll see him use it to enrich - my guess, or hope, is that he uses it less to poke fun and more to push us past barricades of bias or conventional beliefs, that subverting as you mentioned in the last thread.

I'm at about a third (page 136), and one thing that's stood out, which I like, is how we know the characters' motivations and they know each other's. Sham wants salvage, maybe to become a salvor. The captain wants to catch up to her mole/philosophy.

And CM treats the reader pretty honestly about all this, like how the captain sees through Sham's attempt to steer the Medes to Manihiki and how Sham knows pretty easily how to push her buttons. It would have been awful if CM had resorted to literary trickery, making us assume/pretend/believe that either character could get fooled so easily. Just makes it so much more real. At the same time, he keeps us interested, and hooked, with this seemingly magical photo of unheard of single rail crossing the sea. (And it sets up the theme of this 'bildungsroman' is going to center on: it's the journey, not the destination. At least in my interpretation.)

Derek, you mentioned the Vivacious Weevil, which for many reasons I really liked that scene. Don't we all want that kind of bar around the corner?

Anyway, what is it with the word "philosophy" in this context. Is that something from Moby Dick? Is it used so we will understand right it front that it's not the whale, er, mole that's the key to what happens?

I totally agree about Sham pushing Naphi's buttons. She knows he wants to go to Manihiki, & even knows her buttons are being pushed, & still knows that she is going to have to do what he wants. I did think she should have tried to get Sham to convince his friend to sell hers (which would have led to other issues since it wasn't hers to sell, & is maybe just too large a side-track to get past the edit stage).

I definitely want to have a "Vivacious Weevil. As it is, all of my neighbours are actually non-drinkers, so the VW would be a complete failure here.

I don't think that philosophy is from Moby Dick, I just think it's an inversion of critics' reading of Moby Dick. They'll tell you it's not a story about hunting whales, but about seeking (often vainly, & to the exclusion of everything else): thus, it's philosophy.

Ah, I highlighted a passage later on that sort of says that too. I find CM is explaining things a bit more in this one & maybe that's why it got the YA stamp?

I noticed Derek embraced the 'sand' so I think I'll see if I like it to, but years & years of writing will probably win out. Liked his explanation of it, finally, about how it represents the twisting movements of the rails that take you all over only to arrive pretty close to where you started - on the other hand, I've always thought of rails as the more direct route, with little bending involved. Oh well.

One thing that bothered me around Chapter 40 or so ... Sham's good about reading people, catching on that he's being watched or going to get mugged in the market, etc. So why in the world did he not realize what the "pirate" was up to. Maybe had there been more one on one with the character, them developing a relationship, I would have bought it. But unless I missed something, Sham should not have been fooled so easily.

Also, That Apt Ohm ... T.A.O... tao? Hmmmmmm.

Derek wrote: "I don't think that philosophy is from Moby Dick, I just think it's an inversion of critics' reading of Moby Dick. They'll tell you it's not a story about hunting whales, but about seeking (often vainly, & to the exclusion of everything else): thus, it's philosophy."

I think you just hit the nail on the head. Whale hunting is just a premise for Melville to ruminate about every aspect of the world and human desires and motivations and obsessions and stuff like that. And this philosophizing about philosophy is exactly what endears critics to 'Moby-Dick' - which would not have happened had it been a story of the ocean adventures of a whaling ship crew. But this obsession with 'philosophy' in Moby-Dick makes it a perfect target for Miéville's humor.

Derek wrote: "Please tell me that this is a tweak to the noses of all the literati who think that Moby Dick is ... well, about everything."

Haha, 'Moby-Dick' IS about everything. Supposedly.

Lovely discussion! Yes, and absolutely, about the "philosophising". I can see the huge dollop of sarcasm just dripping from that word philosophy every time CM mentions the word in the context you've all been discussing. :P

I also wondered about the Shroakes and what they're part is, why bring them into it. Maybe to explain the world we're in, what happened, stoke the fires of what really interests Sham, assist him in his coming of age (and their own for that matter) ... but then the action started swiftly picking up from here. And I got so distracted from the action and "fun" of this book - the clattering of the plot along the rails - that i rushed to finish it. Gonna have to back up and look at some of my highlighted passages ... but I found the description and the reasoning of the ampersand cool. Most people highlighted the main paragraph about it but I liked the one a few sentences later that it "switches on its way to where it's going, as we all must do."

And then the fact that aliens treated the earth as a giant "tip" - I love British words - is very intriguing. I want to know more about this. Although I think CM would tell us we're all a bit alien sometimes, ruining our world (or others worlds) by throwing off our stuff, and I would feel ashamed. :)

Nataliya wrote: "Whale hunting is just a premise for Melville to ruminate about every aspect of the world and human desires and motivations and obsessions and stuff like that. And this philosophizing about philosophy is exactly what endears critics to 'Moby-Dick' - which would not have happened had it been a story of the ocean adventures of a whaling ship crew...."

Not having been able to read more than a dozen pages of Moby-Dick before giving up, I had not made the association there, but now that it's staring me in the face I can appreciate the humour far more. It also explains why I couldn't stand Moby-Dick.

From a story point of view, it does make me wonder how the concept and culture of philosophy-hunting evolved on the railsea. Was it simply a means to legitimize base revenge against killer animals as a noble pursuit of the officer upper crust, or something else?

J. wrote: " Was it simply a means to legitimize base revenge against killer animals as a noble pursuit of the officer upper crust, or something else?
"

Well, let me use this opportunity to re-iterate my whole point about sperm whales ; being, that they have never been known to attack humans without provocation. We are not natural prey to them. They eat squid, which they dive very, very deep (up to 3 kms!!!) to catch.

They will of course defend themselves when attacked, which is what had been happening in earlier whale-hinting days when they were being cruelly harpooned with less efficient equipment than is being used today by humans for their ambergris (used for perfumes) and spermacetti oil. Of course, their meat and blubber etc was also used, as were their bones for ladies corsets... so my point is that hunting them was actually purely a commercial thing; you'd never find that a whale would just randomly attack a boat or ship that was minding its own business.

So, all those angry captains with their missing limbs, lost them while hunting on a commercial basis, and they would have attacked first.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sperm_whale

(Btw, welcome - nice to see you joining the discussion, J!)

Allen wrote: "And I got so distracted from the action and "fun" of this book - the clattering of the plot along the rails - that i rushed to finish it."

I must say that this is the most 'fun' CM novel I have read thus far. :)

Allen, as to Sham being fooled so easily by the young pirate, I think he was desperate for a friend and was willing to ignore the cues he usually paid great attention to. I can understand that, I may have done it myself, and I am sure YA readers would.

A quote I particularly enjoyed from this section of the book is most of chapter 30:

Humans like nothing more than to pigeonhole the events & phenomena that punctuate their lives.

Some bemoan this fact:"Why does everything have to be put into boxes?" they say. & fair enough, up to a point. But this vigorous drive to divide, subdivide & label has been rather maligned. such conceptual shuffling is inevitable, & a reasonable defence against what would otherwise face us as throroughgoing chaos. The germane issue is not whether, but HOW to divide.

Ruth wrote: "Allen, as to Sham being fooled so easily by the young pirate, I think he was desperate for a friend and was willing to ignore the cues he usually paid great attention to. I can understand that, I ..."

Yes, I just finished another YA book where I commented that this sort of behavior in an adult seems stupid — & suggests an author is just trying to force the plot — but works better with adolescents, because we all did stupid things at that age, & we were all having trouble fitting in.

Derek wrote: "Ruth wrote: "Allen, as to Sham being fooled so easily by the young pirate, I think he was desperate for a friend and was willing to ignore the cues he usually paid great attention to. I can unders..."

Yeah, I think CM certainly gave the reader enough clues to suspect that the guy was leading Sham into a trap, but one also sort of understood why Sham fell for it, and one couldn't help despising Robalson for it. I think Robalson himself felt ashamed of it.

Ruth wrote: "Why does everything have to be put into boxes?" they say. & fair enough, up to a point. But this vigorous drive to divide, subdivide & label has been rather maligned. such conceptual shuffling is inevitable, & a reasonable defence against what would otherwise face us as throroughgoing chaos. The germane issue is not whether, but HOW to divide.
"

That is a very good point, actually..

Ruth wrote: "Allen, as to Sham being fooled so easily by the young pirate, I think he was desperate for a friend and was willing to ignore the cues he usually paid great attention to. I can understand that, I ..."

Good point. Plus he's just so 'worldly' that Sham's sure to try to befriend. I should've thought back to the good ol' days of trying to fit in myself!

"Humans like nothing more than to pigeonhole the events & phenomena that punctuate their lives."

I also liked that quote, especially the fact that I perceived "puncuate" as a sort of double entendre or literary pun considering the ampersands :)

Derek, as far as Robalson feeling ashamed of it, I think in a much later chapter (view spoiler)[ when Sham's a prisoner on the pirate train (hide spoiler)] he indicated that without really saying so. Would be interesting to see how a young adult today would characterize their interaction.

Allen wrote: "Derek, as far as Robalson feeling ashamed of it..."

Traveller said that - but I agreed with her (and didn't have the time to seek out the the passage where (view spoiler)[he keeps quiet when Daybe appears (hide spoiler)])

Derek wrote: "Allen wrote: "Derek, as far as Robalson feeling ashamed of it..."

Traveller said that - but I agreed with her (and didn't have the time to seek out the the passage where [spoilers removed])"

I think CM cleverly indicates these things with the character's body language, actually...