Bully discussion

I don't care what's happening at home. No one should feel good about making someone els feel like shit. Don't get me wrong I loved the book but it kind of irritated me how she could just put it to one side and give him her cherry instead of a middle finger. I can't see how someone could hurt the person they claim to love for 3 years??? I tried to like him I really did but it just would not happen. I found myself hoping he would get clap or warts from the slapper piper.

Yep, I did. Because it's YA - I am extremely vigilant on the abusive themes that seem to prevail.

(The same with Beautiful Disaster - Travis is a bully who bullies people to give up their seat and is violent to men who take an interest in the girl he likes).

Below are a few paragraphs of my review of Bully:

..the one dimensional characters in this book and the fact that there are serious issues such as school bullying which are not handled appropriately. If the book was targeted for an older audience, I don't think I'd be that concerned about that, however, in this instance it influenced my score.

I'm more than happy to revise my score if the sickly Mills & Boon clichéd parts are removed, the characters are given some depth and the bullying issue is addressed.

Bullying is the use of force or coercion to abuse or intimidate others. The physical manifestation is not the only form of bullying. Psychological bullying can have a far more detrimental impact. The target of bullying is to hurt, humiliate and degrade the victim. Unfortunately, in many in stances of bullying - the victim is considered culpable - with suggestions to "man up" and "fight back", which are all very well, however, if your a young female and your opponent is a 6 foot + male - it's not always viable. I urge all to report incidents of bullying, whether at school, the workplace or home.

Although the protagonist, Tate does stand up to her bullies, however, after several years of systematic bullying, what I found surprising was her constant attraction to her abuser, even when he was humiliating her. I think I would have preferred the story if the attraction she felt for him was gradual - it slowly began developing as she begins to engage with him. But throughout the book she's drooling over him and it becomes rather annoying rendering the story a cheap romance. If her attraction was paced better, than the chemistry would have been intensifying and given credibility to her character.

Jared was a rip off of that 50 Shades pervert. I think many people will find the sexism in that book reflected in this book to some degree. Jared, we are constantly reminded, is a totally hot, tall, dark, brooding cliché who doesn't seem very bright. Also, authors - no man ought to use "my mummy/ daddy didn't love me" as an excuse for mental or physical abuse. It does not justify it. However, I'm wiling to forgive and move on, but seriously - give the guy some depth. He's just a caricature of a trashy romance novel.

All the other male characters appear to be a foil against Jared. No one could of course be as hot or as manly as him. I think if the author had a genuinely great guy pursuing our Tate (who ticked all the boxes) but she was reluctant to date him (because of her unknown feelings for Jared) then perhaps it would have given far more credibility to their romance. But instead every other male character is either too dumb, pretty, silly and mean or annoying while Jared is the most manly hot beast around **yawn**. When Tate goes to college - she's in for a shock with all the different specimens she'll meet there.

I think a lot of people had issues with the book, specifically, as Goddess says in that this is marketed to a younger age group.

The main place I disagree with Goddess is in Tate's feelings toward Jared. Because of her past history with him and the puppy love she had already felt toward him, I thought it was easier to understand her current interest in him. She was still trying, even after it all, to find that boy she cared for under it all.

Believe me, you can be bullied by someone and still think they're hot.

IDK I related a lot to Tate. I was tormented from 2nd grade to 8th grade by one particular boy and all I wanted was attention from him, just not the negative attention. I think its definitely possible to just forget all the bad things to get a bit of good. Especially when you're in high school and still trying to figure yourself out.

Sarah wrote: "IDK I related a lot to Tate. I was tormented from 2nd grade to 8th grade by one particular boy and all I wanted was attention from him, just not the negative attention. I think its definitely pos..."

Sarah, there were a lot of things about Tate and Jared that are very real and happen a lot when it comes to bullying. There is no doubt about that. Other parts of the story were quite weak. Again, I think that the major issue with this book is that it is marketed to an age group that, as you say, is still trying to figure themselves out. Glorifying bullying, as this book does (and so you know, I too was bullied for a long time), is not something we should be doing.

Monique wrote: "Sarah wrote: "IDK I related a lot to Tate. I was tormented from 2nd grade to 8th grade by one particular boy and all I wanted was attention from him, just not the negative attention. I think its ..."

Thats true, I guess after reading I was so wrapped up in my personal feelings from my youth I didnt even make the glorification connection.

Ye I suppose it could be me that's not understanding the relationship that can accrue between the two people then. Iv only ever been bullied once at school and it only lasted a week till I had a go back and it was a girl not a boy but we all know how bitchy girls can be. But to this this day I still can't stand her and I'm almost 30 lol. This is the reason I thought this book was a bit strange and yes I agree the age rating is wrong for this book.

Sarah wrote: "Monique wrote: "Sarah wrote: "IDK I related a lot to Tate. I was tormented from 2nd grade to 8th grade by one particular boy and all I wanted was attention from him, just not the negative attentio..."

Sarah, I had the same reaction at first. I had to stop and think about it before I started making connections. I really like the book, really like the characters and identify and empathize with Tate very strongly. She had the strength to do something I never was able to do - fight back.

I work for a publishers and we are required to be clued up on bullying (including attending seminars) in order to ensure there are no abusive themes in the books we publish for the YA market), hence I can say that my employers would be horrified by this book - I would not allow my teenage cousins to read this.

I don't care what adults wish to read. As a staff publisher I oppose censorship. However, I would never encourage a young girl to find her abuser attractive or glorify bulling. If a 6 foot + male humiliated and intimated me this way - I would call the police on him. It's an assault.

I was also disturbed by some of the sexist and Misogynistic themes that prevailed in this book.

Anyway, this is a really interesting article which discusses these issues:

"this is a post about how and why words matter a whole heck of a lot, especially in YA lit, when we know that they are being consumed by readers whose identities and views about the world are in the process of forming. I don’t say this in an attempt to leverage any kind of hand-wringing save-the-children defense! Rather, I say it because YA lit is essentially about identity-formation and, therefore, any of us who read it go through similar identity-formations."

http://crunchingsandmunchings.wordpre...

Hi, it's the author here. I am not crashing the conversation! I swear. You all have very good input and this is a useful discussion.

I would like to clarify one thing so that there is no misunderstanding. I never marketed this book as a YA novel. On Amazon, I listed it as New Adult since they were 18. I agree that anyone under the age of 18 should not be reading something with such harsh language and sexual situations. I'm an adult who enjoys teen angst and thought others would, too. Carry on:D

Penelope wrote: "Hi, it's the author here. I am not crashing the conversation! I swear. You all have very good input and this is a useful discussion.

I would like to clarify one thing so that there is no misunders..."

Well, I for one liked it. No, I don't agree with bullying but the storyline followed through. Penelope Douglas feel free to read my review. I left one out here.

I can't see why someone who is 16/17/18 wouldn't enjoy this book. Its fiction, yes things like this really happen but once again it is fiction and not to be taken seriously.

Stephanie wrote: "I can't see why someone who is 16/17/18 wouldn't enjoy this book. Its fiction, yes things like this really happen but once again it is fiction and not to be taken seriously."

Because some people do take it seriously what their teenage daughters read and are influenced by. Hence we have Parental Guidance.

As per the below:
"this is a post about how and why words matter a whole heck of a lot, especially in YA lit, when we know that they are being consumed by readers whose identities and views about the world are in the process of forming. I don’t say this in an attempt to leverage any kind of hand-wringing save-the-children defense! Rather, I say it because YA lit is essentially about identity-formation and, therefore, any of us who read it go through similar identity-formations."

http://crunchingsandmunchings.wordpre...

Anyway - the retailers need to review the sub-genre here. Because the whole NA and YA is becoming confusing as I found this book in my 11 year old cousins kindle and her mother ok'd it because she understood it to be YA.

Dear Author - thanks for the clarification! And apologies!

Jeanna-Has Probably Read It! wrote: "Penelope wrote: "Hi, it's the author here."

I noticed you rated your own book 5* ;-)

Btw - apologies for the confusion. But i think the reason why some parents confused this as
(a) because NA and YA are rather misleading (my aunt bought this for her tween) and
(b) this was based within a school setting.

If it were at university than I think it would have been easier to identify.

Apologies again. And I understand it is your first book hence it's not easy taking in feed back. I admire that you were not rude like the Beautiful Disaster author! Good luck with your second book! And no hard feelings!

Stephanie wrote: "I can't see why someone who is 16/17/18 wouldn't enjoy this book. Its fiction, yes things like this really happen but once again it is fiction and not to be taken seriously."

Well I'm the one that started this discussion and it was not ment to drag the book or the author down, the book was good. All I was saying is does anyone see a problem with how she could get with him after the things he's done to her. Yes it is fiction and yes I suppose this thing could also happen in real life as well. But the real meaning behind the question was could you see yourself getting with your bully if you had gone from best mates to 3 years worth of bullying?

Penelope wrote: "Hi, it's the author here. I am not crashing the conversation! I swear. You all have very good input and this is a useful discussion.

I would like to clarify one thing so that there is no misunders..."

Hi the question was not ment to put you or the book down. If I did not like the book I would have given it a 1 star or even a 0. I liked the book the meaning behind (anyone els see a problem with this) was ment to mean does anyone els see a problem with her getting with him after everything he's done to her. Another words would you yourself get with him after. It did not mean did anyone els see a problem with the book it's self or the age or anything els for that matter. Just the outcome of there relationship. Sorry if you thought I was putting your book down.

Keep on talking ladies. I knew the score when I put the book up! As long as people aren't cruel, then you have every right to say what you want to say. And I appreciate the feedback. This book isn't perfect. Happy Reading!

My review mostly explains what I think. I'd add that the intended target audience may have been a bit older, but I read Peyton Place and The Painted Bird at 16, put in my hands by my father. When something is called NA, I look at the age group of the protagonists as jr in school to 25. Therefore, the audience reading it is likely to somewhere between 15 and 30. I am actually outside the age range but that's ok. And clearly much younger people are reading it too.

Penelope, if you read my review, I'd urge you to read the passage in the spoiler tag. That's the main crux of the issue for me. It's why this book, as much as I enjoyed it, in my personal view, is not suitable for NA readers. Because identities and sexual identities are still forming at those ages. I'm not even saying the scene isn't believable. My own experience says it is, but stuff like that gets internalized more easily in the 15-25 age range.

Actually, this book was kind of cathartic for me. As a victim of long-term bullying someone who was bullied for a long time, it helped me empathize with those who hurt me and let go of the last of my anger and hurt. I'll always be marked by what happened, but I don't have to let it control me. So, I'm not in the least sorry I read it.

Keeley, I'm less convinced it could happen in real life, but I thought the book set up their getting together perfectly. He was always in love with her. She was always in love with him. It was masked for 3 years and in that age group, boys are known for teasing (note: he bullied and sometimes there's a very fine line between the 2) the girls they like. Given the circumstances of the book, I had no problem with her forgiving him and being with him.

Goddess wrote: "Jeanna-Has Probably Read It! wrote: "Penelope wrote: "Hi, it's the author here."

I noticed you rated your own book 5* ;-)

Nope, I wouldn't do that! Kind of sleazy:) If you go to my page it shows that I read my book (several damn times) but didn't rate it. And of course, no hard feelings. Constructive criticism is welcome!

I am sure I am older than most of you posting, but I have experience with young adult literature since I taught the class at a university level. The most accepted definition of "young adult" is ages 12-18. The author has made it clear that Bully is for 18+, and I agree with her insight because by the time we've reached 18 years ("new" adult, which is a "new" label), we are able to understand the many destructive layers of bullying. The criticism I see here could have been avoided if the setting were at the college level rather than high school, but that would have changed the story.

I liked Bully very much because an 18 year old reader will readily see all of the wrongs you all have pointed out and how sick it was that Jared did those things to Tate. I think it is important to focus on the fact that Jared and Hope are definitely flawed characters. They have to overcome their flaws before they can accept who they are individually and as a couple. This is the good part of the book--the struggle to overcome and be a better person. For Jared, it means giving up his pain, and for Tate, she has to become stronger and stop living in fear--both very important themes for young and new adult.

I also think you are underestimating 16-18 year old readers--most who have experienced bullying. What Jared does is horrible--he is a meanie even if he is hot. The added punch to that is the relationship Tate and Jared had prior to high school. I think older young adults will get that and understand why Tate is hopeful of the boy she loved someday returning to her. He was critical in her life during a horrific time in her life.

Paula,

I agree with you. You aren't saying anything I don't already know and I'm pushing 40. Sure. People are going to see he is a meanie. They aren't going to like it. But, that doesn't mean that they are going to reject the dynamic. There are plenty of girls, even at 18, who will read that and think "Oh, he is mean, but see, he only did it because he really loves her." The fact is, 9 times out of 10, if they translate that to real life they will be wrong.

But, the core of my issue has little to do with the relationship between Jared and Tate. My biggest complaint and issue is the scene with the Grandmother. She all but tells Tate that Tate has been a terrible friend to Jared. And then, even worse, in my eyes, she basically tells Tate to feed the troll. A bully thrives on the pain of the person they are bullying. Deny them the reaction and often they will find someone else, though not always as I certainly learned. Jared is not immune to this need. He admittedly thrives on Tate's tears. And yet, Grandmother tells Tate to show Jared how hurt she is? Really?!

I really liked the story as evidenced by both my rating and my review. I agree that it is not marketed toward those under 18. I will never agree with glorifying bullying. I spent way too many years being bullied to sit back now and not challenge things when I feel like there is glorification going on.

I don't think I am underestimating 16-18 year old readers. Given my own personal experience, I know two things: I was never strong enough to fight back as Tate did and I know that systemic and long-term bullying will strip a person of their sense of self worth. That combination tells me that there are plenty of 16-18 year olds out there who have been bullied but who will internalize the Grandmother's message and/or that bullying can be done out of love. Neither are healthy messages.

Paula wrote: "I am sure I am older than most of you posting, but I have experience with young adult literature since I taught the class at a university level. The most accepted definition of "young adult" is age..."


I agree with Monique here. I work for a major Publishing House and we're required to consult all types of supervising bodies if there's any controversial issues within our books. Bullying is a huge issue which still isn't being tackled at schools appropriately.

As for underestimating kids - studies have illustrated that Schools and Governing bodies have underestimated the seriousness of bullying and it's impact later in life.
Some people have attributed bullying as a major factor as to why they believe that they struggled later in life - many victims believed that it was their own fault for being bullied because they were weak/uncool/ugly/fat, etc (which is why more often than not - it doesn't get reported).

Now if I remember correctly - Tate herself believed that she had to grow stronger in order to overcome being bullied therefore believing she was culpable. I also don't see how Tate was a "flawed" character - she didn't ask to be bullied and live in fear. And I don't blame her fearing an intimidating 6 foot plus guy who lives within close proximity - although I do think she ought to have reported it.

That's the only reason why I felt uncomfortable with it.

I hope you don't think I'm attacking you. I'm just clarifying what I think is the issue here.

No hard feelings :-)

Keeley wrote: "Think my question as gone way off the track as to what I ment so I'm out."

Hey sorry about that - I think I didn't understand your question.

Well I think in fiction - the basic premise could work. Highly unlikely in real life.

If we saw a few more chapters where Jared and Tate re-developed/ established their friendship and began to trust each other as friends rather than start out as lovers - then yep. Jared would of course have to really redeem himself. In this book I think he got off easily. If a guy humiliated and bullied me because his mummy and daddy didn't love him - he would be lucky to walk the streets freely ;-)

Again, I am really sorry that I misunderstood your question!

Keeley and Penelope,

Thank you for writing this book and for asking the question in the first place. We might have misunderstood your question, Keeley, but I think it opened an interesting discussion on bullying.

Truth is, it is a problem and anything that gets us talking about it is a good thing. As I said earlier, this book was cathartic for me. I'm sure that others like me will find something in this book to relate to and help examine past experiences through new lenses.

This has been an interesting discussion. It reminds me of an independent movie made several years ago called "Welcome to the Dollhouse" that also dealt with the topic of bullying and it had some of the same elements of this story. (...I'm assuming based on reviews and the discussion here. I haven't actually read "Bully" yet. I certainly plan to, though.) The main character in the movie is a nerdy girl that is being bullied at school and she develops a crush on her bully as well. I realize the bullying is a very serious issue, but from a child development standpoint, isn't the dynamic that some take issue to in the book (...a girl and her bully develop feelings for each other) an entirely plausible and realistic dynamic whether one wants to admit it or not? Sometimes, when boys and girls like each other, they are mean to each other instead. Sometimes it's attention seeking. Sometimes it's an attempt to deny or hide what they are feeling from others or it may be an inability to understand or deal with the feelings that they are having.

Honestly speaking, the mother of the 11 yr old with the kindle apparently didn't do her homework with regards to the book because there are very clear disclaimers on amazon regarding the book's content and intended audience. That isn't the book's fault, imo.

"isn't the dynamic that some take issue to in the book (...a girl and her bully develop feelings for each other) an entirely plausible and realistic dynamic whether one wants to admit it or not?"

point 1:
I don't think that was the issue. The issue was - glorifying bullying. I've read many books that feature jerk/bullying heros, however, generally the "bully/jerk" redeems himself.

In this book Jared doesn't really redeem himself. It's Tat that forgives him. He gives her head and she's like "I love you" and then they're a couple.

That was what the initial discussion related to (the person who started it wanted to know would any self-respecting, intelligent girl really easily forgive her Tormentor and then allow him to pop her cherry).

Point 2:
"sometimes, when boys and girls like each other, they are mean to each other instead. Sometimes it's attention seeking."

The bullying in this book wasn't just "mean" actions. It was assault (assault doesn't have to be physical - a 6 foot plus male cornering a smaller female is an assault). He basically makes her life hell for several years. It's systematic psychological bullying which has a far more greater impact than even physical.

Point 3:
"Honestly speaking, the mother of the 11 yr old with the kindle apparently didn't do her homework with regards to the book because there are very clear disclaimers on amazon regarding the book's content and intended audience. That isn't the book's fault, imo. "

Speaking from the point of view of a Publisher - my life would be very easy if I could easily blame parents for books that we might market for certain crowds. However, authors and publishers must take responsibility for what is marketed as Young Adult or New Adult. And as this book is based in a school - many kids would be interested to read it. Parents are not perfect and have millions of other urgent matters to be concerned with - and hence as a publisher I need to be vigilant and I expect authors to be as well. because this is based in a school - I think 17 year olds would be interested to read it and I'd be concerned even at that age.

This is the reason why its essential books handle controversial themes:

As per the below:
"this is a post about how and why words matter a whole heck of a lot, especially in YA lit, when we know that they are being consumed by readers whose identities and views about the world are in the process of forming. I don’t say this in an attempt to leverage any kind of hand-wringing save-the-children defense! Rather, I say it because YA lit is essentially about identity-formation and, therefore, any of us who read it go through similar identity-formations:

This relates to NA as well.

I have one comment to make, well actually several. May contain some spoilers.

Did anyone miss the obvious which was the title "Bully"? I know that most of this string is about not condoning this type of behavior and that the has somehow made it into the YA genre.

Yet the author made several disclaimers that this was for 18+ in the description of the book on Amazon which I'm sure the other sites did as well and I definitely didn't see where she herself was condoning the bullying by either Jared or Tate for that fact. I actually almost didn't read it because of the category/genre it fell into but am so glad that I took a chance. Because this isn't just about the bullying he did to her. And if I remember correctly there were several other characters who were bullying not just Jared even Tate.

Yes I agree that the authors, publishing companies and the like need to take responsibility as well as the parents. YET I'm guessing then we need to go to the school boards and ask them to sit down with all students, teachers, and parents to talk about the right and wrong before they read "classics" that are a requirement. The themes and topics explored in the classics are about death, rape, bullying, racism, molestation, war, sex, stealing, murder, genocide, drugs and everything else you can imagine that could place dark thoughts into the impressionable minds of our youth.

A slight dramatic I know but I think it brings home the point that the appropriateness of a book may be to help bring light of a subject that we either need to learn from become aware. As this is the reason for the most part that we read the classics in high school to explore life's lessons whether good, bad, ugly or in different.

I agree that that television shows, movies, books, and songs all should be placed in the appropriate categories but at some point we need to have accountability and introspection and faith that we have raised our children with those two things.

Being a parent of two girls makes me terrified of what is out there in the big bad world but I hope and pray that I am/have shown them the right path. The world today is much different than it was when I was in high school 25 years ago. My mom and her mom would say the same. And yet there are still some things that will never change such as bullying and "mean girls". Although, the modus operandi has changed slightly with computers and cell phones.

As of right now, I have more control over what my children read and watch but as they grow older and become their own person I will not always be able to supervise most of everything. I'm sure most of you remember being 15, 16, 17, and 18 and saying things or reading something that was more adult than you should have. I read Judy Blume's Forever when I was only 15 because it was considered to be YA and yet neither me nor my friends thought "hey I'm going to go out and lose my virginity". My mom had no idea as I had borrowed it from a friend. When I told her, we sat and discussed it because she wanted to know what I thought.

Disclaimer: I did not grow up in the Cleaver Household but I am lucky to say that my parents enjoyed talking about "stuff". It would be great if everyone had that but I am a realist and understand that is not even close to reality.

Do I think that Tate is an idiot for forgiving Jared, YES! but did I enjoy the story and the fact that in the end the girl and guy get together YES!

I am not making light of any of this. I guess I just have a hard time when a book is only truly read for it's cover. For those of you who were upset by the category of YA or NA, were you just as upset that Hunger Games Series is listed as Children's Literature or that the Crossfire Series by Sylvia Day is categorized as Psychological Thriller?

Bullying is wrong and everyone knows it's wrong. This book doesn't celebrate it, glorify it, or even make "A-Okay". It's about a boy and girl who find their way back to each other after years of a really screwed up "relationship" - if you can qualify it as that - Jared made her life a living hell. Tate did nothing to stop him and then took back her life by beating him down. In the end, they both saw what they did was wrong and found something kinda like love. Parts of this story are bit much and unbelievable but that's why it's called fiction.

Michelle,

The Hunger Games are not children's literature. They are Young Adult. Huge difference in my opinion. Heidi is children's literature. Having said that, I read Peyton Place at 14 or 15 years old. But it was also put into my hands by my father. Go figure!

The problem with this book, as I see it, is that it does indeed glorify bullying. How does it do that?

1. Even the Grandmother does not state up for Tate but actually tells Tate that she has not been a good friend to Jared. At the same time, the Grandmother somehow realizes something bad has happened to Jared and *does nothing*. Adults who see that a child is being bullied and do nothing are just as much a part of the problem. So not only does the Grandmother fail Jared but then she turns around and fails Tate too. Sadly, this is not an unusual occurrence. Plenty of parents of bullied children wonder what is wrong with their child.

2. Jared never apologizes for what he did. In fact, he is pushed in the direction of making nice by two things. First, Madoc starts to make moves on Tate. Second, Tate, in an act I would never, ever recommend for a bullied person, shows Jared her pain. This only manages to get him scared, but not scared enough to apologize. Just scared enough to try and keep her with him. He succeeds but only because, despite everything, Tate is still looking for that best friend of her youth. She *yearns* for her Jared to come back. When he does in some small measure, it is instant validation for her. This is the crux of why the relationship ended up working for me. Under all that nastiness were two people who were always in love with each other.

3. Lastly, it reminds young women that sometimes when a boy likes you, he treats you badly. Yes, this is true. But, it is also true that when a boy treats you badly, he is an abuser. The fact is Jared's treatment of Tate is similar, if not entirely identical, to what an abuser does. He isolates her, is highly possessive of her, beats her down physically, beats her down emotionally, uses his friends and network to help keep her down. And the message is guys who do this really secretly are in love with you.

Michelle wrote: "Do I think that Tate is an idiot for forgiving Jared, YES! but did I enjoy the story and the fact that in the end the girl and guy get together YES! "

And you know what? Me too! I rated this book 4 stars because I think the author did a great job with the story.

Thanks Monique.

Very good points. Although I don't think Grandma not saying anything "glorifies" bullying I think it makes a point to say Tate isn't supported at home and feels she has no where to go.

And your right, Jared never does apologize which as you pointed out is why for some unknown reason it just works.

Lastly, girls are told from a very young age that when a boy teases you or pulls your pig tales that he actually likes you. Never understood the logic myself but my grandfather, dad, uncles, and cousins all say the same thing. I guess I didn't analyze this point as to abuser and equating that either women or men would assume that this behavior was acceptable and love. But I can see your point.

And just so you know, I double checked the genre for Hunger Games on Amazon before I typed that and it actually does show up as Children's Literature. Surprising but true. As well as Young Adult. It also shows up under Fantasy as well.

And yes, I think the author did a great job too.

I still say that this really does go back to parental responsibility. "Children's Literature" encompasses many different age ranges. "Chicka Chicka Boom Boom" isn't intended for the same aged children as the "Diary of a Wimpy Kid" series is. "The Hunger Games" falls under the "children's literature" umbrella because it's intended age range is grade 7 and up.

I've just started reading "Bully" today, btw. I'm on Chapter 2 and the book has already made it quite clear (at least to me) that Tate and Jared used to be friends and that she seems to have always had a crush on him. I'm guessing that this is the reason why she probably is inclined to forgive him when they meet again later. That premise seems entirely plausible to me and I am not yet certain why this might not be appropriate for a young person.

I'm always intrigued by what bothers people about books. Quite honestly, if anything, I would have thought some would have more problems with the unchaperoned house party in Ch 1, the underaged drinking and the obvious lack of parental supervision that these kids seem to have.

Mochaspresso wrote: "I'm on Chapter 2 and the book has already made it quite clear (at least to me) that Tate and Jared used to be friends and that she seems to have always had a crush on him. I'm guessing that this is the reason why she probably is inclined to forgive him when they meet again later. That premise seems entirely plausible to me and I am not yet certain why this might not be appropriate for a young person. "

This is precisely why the book works.

It's not that this concept is not appropriate for younger readers. The concept that is not appropriate for younger readers is this:

Boys who are mean to you, even abusive, are really showing you they love you.

Penelope wrote: "Keep on talking ladies. I knew the score when I put the book up! As long as people aren't cruel, then you have every right to say what you want to say. And I appreciate the feedback. This book isn'..."

Don't worry Pen, I found this book interesting! i love the banter, the transformation of each characters. However, I was expecting a great revenge that you can say - served you right B! haha. Good job!

I'm really looking forward to Madoc's story. Heck, he had me at "Hello, I'm Madoc.". It's a fabulous name. And I can tell he has quite the story of his own.

I do want to clarify something. I think this was a great book for someone like me, someone who endured bullying growing up - especially psychological bullying - and who is still dealing with the effects of that. Jared was a great character for helping me to see another side of bullying. I expect I will continue to read NA books that deal with this subject and continue to discuss them internally and in fora like this because bullying is a compelling subject and an issue that is particularly relevant today as we struggle with how to address it.

Jared reminded me - and made it so clear that even I was deeply moved - that pain is often a prime motivator for bullying behavior. When we reduce bullying to perpetrator and victim and judge and deal with each accordingly, we often overlook the motivations of the parties and that is not going to help stop or prevent bullying. Jared needed someone to help him with his pain and every single adult in the book failed to do anything. (view spoiler)[Jared's pain was only partly what his father did. To understand Jared, you need to get the underlying feeling of betrayal he had when he got home and found Tate, her Dad and his Mom at the park. (hide spoiler)] Intellectually, I have always understood this. Jared just put a compelling face on it.

I'm at 22%. So far, I really am enjoying the book. I wouldn't say that it is appropriate for YA because of some of the language and content. It's definitely an adult book but I don't think I would have a problem with young people reading it either. There is nothing in here (so far) that a typical teen wouldn't already know about.

As to glorifying the bullying....so far, the bullying that is going on seems on the mild side, imo. I don't want to seem insensitive but based on this thread, I actually thought it would be much much worse. I don't get the impression that the bullying is being glorified or condoned. At least, not yet. Actually, I will say that I like that Tate has spunk and fights back, but I do think that some of the ways in which she fights back make her just as bad as her "tormentor". (Tormentor is in quotes because she clearly still likes the boy and has liked him all along). (view spoiler)[ her sneaking into Jared's backyard and cutting the power to his house just because his party was too loud was a very "Revenge of the Nerds" thing to do. (hide spoiler)].

Monique wrote: It's not that this concept is not appropriate for younger readers. The concept that is not appropriate for younger readers is this:

Boys who are mean to you, even abusive, are really showing you they love you.



Well, I'm not far enough into the story to have any real insight into Jared's behavior and the motivations for it. I have to keep reading to see for myself if the book teaches me that.

......edited to add that I while I don't understand Jared's motivations for bullying yet, don't you think that some of Tate's actions toward Jared could be construed as antagonistic and as bullying as well? Especially considering the fact that the reader is actually in her head and clearly sees her motivations.

I don't think the book glorifies it, because Tate even recognizes this about herself and some of her actions. She's realizing that she is hurt and that she is lashing out at him to make him feel as bad as she does. "This is how bullies are made." (38%) I think I would definitely allow young people to read this and talk to them about it.

Monique wrote: Even the Grandmother does not state up for Tate but actually tells Tate that she has not been a good friend to Jared. At the same time, the Grandmother somehow realizes something bad has happened to Jared and *does nothing*. Adults who see that a child is being bullied and do nothing are just as much a part of the problem. So not only does the Grandmother fail Jared but then she turns around and fails Tate too. Sadly, this is not an unusual occurrence. Plenty of parents of bullied children wonder what is wrong with their child.



I've just reached this part. I actually think the Grandmother had a point about their unresolved issues. They were close friends and something clearly happened to change that. The book hasn't revealed exactly what happened yet, but it has been dropping a few hints. Whatever it was, it doesn't seem that either of them made an earnest attempt to address it. They are allowing the resentment to rule them and their actions.

Mochaspresso wrote: "edited to add that I while I don't understand Jared's motivations for bullying yet, don't you think that some of Tate's actions toward Jared could be construed as antagonistic and as bullying as well? "

Yes, and she is very self-aware about it too. "This is how bullies are made."

In the end, you have two choices when you are bullied: turn it back at the aggressor or turn it inward at yourself. The difference between Tate and Jared is the pattern of abuse. Jared is consistent and constant, a pattern and feels pleasure when he sees her pain. Tate lashes out when she is at the end of her rope and then only feels a twinge of pleasure before feeling remorse. Very different emotional reactions.

And here is why this book has issues. Listen to us, both defending Jared. But, he was hurting, but she was mean too. But they had unresolved issues. No. Just, no. I don't care how much you are hurting, what Jared does is unacceptable. Period.

And that is never fully addressed in the book. I'm not saying that there isn't a lot that is very true to real life. I am saying that when you end up defending someone who is abusive, it is problematic.

If this were an isolated case in the NA genre, fine. Cool story and whatever. But, it's not. This pattern is being played out over and over again in the NA romantic genre. To me, that raises flags, a lot of flags.

I'm not actually defending Jared, though. I know that what he is doing is unacceptable and it should never have been allowed to continue for as long as it did. Making an effort to understand why someone does something doesn't necessarily mean that you also condone or are excusing it.

fwiw, I work with troubled kids. You cannot help them if you don't fully understand what's making them tick.

Mochaspresso wrote: "fwiw, I work with troubled kids. You cannot help them if you don't fully understand what's making them tick. "


I hear ya on that.

In the end, what I said before still stands. The message ends up being that boys who are mean to you, even abusive, are really showing you they love you.

I can understand why someone did something horrible and abusive all I want, but I am never going to be ok with telling young women that.

Ok, I've finished it. I thought it was very good. It's definitely not YA and from the description on Amazon, I didn't get the impression that it was intended to be. While the situations, language and content is technically not appropriate for teens in the more "traditional" sense, I can quite honestly say that I would have no qualms with a young person reading it and here is why.....

1) I think parents are extremely delusional and naive about the kids of today if they think that anything that happens in this book is something that they are not already aware of.

2) I happen to think that if approached in the right way, books and movies can be a great way to have open dialogues with your kids about these types of topics. You don't necessarily even have to take the full blown approach of turning the book into some sort of corny "after-school special" PSA. "IF" they happen to be reading it, it could just be used as an opportunity to talk openly and feel out where there heads are at and what they are thinking about these topics. Make no mistake, regardless what your approach or parenting style is, these are most certainly dialogues that parents should be having with their kids.

I have to be honest and admit that I may be biased because this was how I was raised. My parents didn't overtly censor what I watched, read or saw and we talked about everything. I'd like to think that I turned out ok and haven't been scarred for life because of it.

My relationship with my parents growing up leads me to one thing that I did find to be wrong with the book. The was an apparent lack of parental guidance and/or supervision among these kids and the lack of adult supervision in the school was troubling as well. It was like the kids and the adults were existing in completely separate orbits and the adults were all depicted as stupid, clueless and/or so dysfunctional that they were oblivious to what was going on with their kids or just plain didn't care. I get how that is probably realistic to some and it actually saddens me. It also reminds me to be very appreciative of the support systems that were in place around me when I was growing up. It's too bad that so many kids today may be growing up without it.

I don't believe in scapegoating media for the ills of society. I also don't believe that all sane, normal, rational and well adjusted individuals are so impressionable that they will be so easily influenced by what they read about in a fiction novel. Those that are, usually are not sane, rational and well-adjusted and usually have other serious issues that started way before they were even introduced to the novel. If you as the parent are the primary and most dominant influence and you actually do have a REALISTIC and OPEN line of communication with your kids, you don't have to worry as much.

In other words, by the time your kid reaches their teen years, reading "Bully" shouldn't be that much of a problem because they should have already learned about all of this stuff from YOU.

Mochaspresso wrote: "There is nothing in here (so far) that a typical teen wouldn't already know about."

Like!

This book is the REALITY.

" Making an effort to understand why someone does something doesn't necessarily mean that you also condone or are excusing it. "

The point is - no one really understands why he bullied her - like I said- we are all willing to move on and forgive. But what was his excuse??
Other than "my mummy and daddy didn't love me" -

Why inflict that pain on Tate? She's meant to be his best friend - it's a betrayal and shows up what a lame and weak character he was.
And then why not redeem yourself after assaulting her (his behaviour follows within the remit of assault).

This is what some readers were confused with (including the person who raised the topic - which people have failed to address so far).

So far it appears his behaviour is excused because he loves her. And apparently because bullying a girl (when your a boy) is a manifestation of hidden feelings of love - so therefore it's ok because that's what teenagers do... right.


Additionally, if it makes you feel better to think it's ok for teens to read this (without being unduly influenced)- then we shall agree to disagree :-)
If a teenage girl happens to reads this (and decides not to report a boy bullying her) because he might possibly possess hidden feelings of love - then of course its ok because there were disclaimers - that means it's fine. And of course parents discuss all the book/TV/Films their children consume.

Parents' cannot be sorely responsible for shaping their children's ideas - the media plays a huge part. To deny that is rather naive. There are studies upon studies which have proven this - again if it makes you feel better to disagree - so be it.

But that's just my view on this and it's best we drop the topic as we all have our own opinion on it. Each to their own :-)

I posted a link why it's not - with studies illustrating pertinent points - but whatever i guess.

But I agree with Monique on this regarding what the book offers up:

"Boys who are mean to you, even abusive, are really showing you they love you."

The amount of women who excuse their partner's abusive behaviour is not startling to me now.

I can go into all the feminist reasons why this book is wrong on so many levels but I dislike feminist rants.


Anyway, I'm glad you enjoyed. Personally, I prefer heroines with a backbone I guess. If a guy did that to me and never apologized or redeemed himself in any other way - I would not offer him my virginity.

But that's just me. As I said in my review - I did think the book was ok. But I found Jared to be a one dimensional character - even Madoc had more personality than he did (there was far more witty banter between Tate and Madoc than Tate and Jared). To me he was a walking (not much talking) Pin Up boy who drives fast.

Hope no one is offended as that's not my intention :-)

Monique wrote: "In the end, what I said before still stands. The message ends up being that boys who are mean to you, even abusive, are really showing you they love you.

I can understand why someone did somethi..."

I understand your concern but after reading the entire book, I disagree that this is the message that most would walk away with after reading it.

First, even if I thought that was the message of the book, I don't believe that most young girls are genuinely so impressionable that this or any other fiction novel ALONE is capable of teaching them that abusive behavior equals love. Working with troubled kids, I know for a fact that this usually isn't the case. There are a myriad of reasons why kids become troubled and why people enter into abusive relationships and I can honestly say that the influence of a fiction novel has NEVER EVER been one of the sole reasons why in my experience. Parents are deluding themselves if they truly think otherwise. It's a fallacy that is embraced by paranoid parents who would rather scapegoat and stick their heads in the sand to avoid the issue.

I don't think the book glorifies bullying at all. I didn't necessarily like the way that every single thing is handled in the book (ie...imo, the ending is an unrealistic HEA where the kids solve their problems among themselves without much in the way of adult guidance or intervention) but I don't think that the book tries to condone Jared's behavior either. The book makes it very clear how she was adversely affected by the bullying that she experienced and explaining his backstory didn't magically make everything ok. She forgave Jared because of their shared history of being childhood friends. If anything, I think the book clearly demonstrates how there is no one set pattern or reason for how and why bullying occurs. Piper's motivations for it were completely different from Jared's and Madoc's, for that matter.

This is just an illustration relating to the actual topic which was: WOULD ANY GIRL REALLY FORGIVE AND FORGET SO EASILY?

Like would you just forgive your bully, shag him and say I Love you?

Some examples of others who found the attraction puzzling (reviews from Amazon UK and US):

By poppy23:
I think I would of been ok if he was just mean to her, but it went way beyond! The things he did & said to her were way beyond mean, they were downright cruel!! I didn't agree with how quick Tate just forgives him, and is in love with him. Also, the reason that he was so despicable to her was no excuse!!' I have to like the hero to like the book, and Jared is a big time jerk thru almost the whole book. Yes, he's nice to Tate, but not till almost the end of the book, and by that time he's just left such a foul taste in your mouth, it was too little too late for me. I mean the guy continually pulls nasty pranks on her, and humiliates her in front of the whole school! Just for no reason! He never won me over! I do not recommend this book!! Just NO!!"



By Joan Hogan:
"Enjoyed mostly, but a bit far fetched also didn't make sense when explaining why he started to bully her, seeing her as the perfect family when the mum had already died."


By L. Sims "Linda" (The south):
"I have mixed feelings about this story. The idea behind it I thought was good. It was how the author handled some of the situations that arose which at times had me thinking really! For instance Tate's father is portrayed as a good man who loves his daughter, yet where is he? He's away working, and not in another state, no he's in another country. That just seemed a contradiction to the man described to the reader. What loving father leaves his seventeen year old daughter alone at home! There was also little character development, in particular Jared who was just the tall handsome tattooed bad boy, with little else going for him. Tate's constant attraction to him was a mystery considering how he treated her. I understand she hoped that one day he would wake up and things would be as they were before that summer. But that was three years ago.
All in all this was a good idea that could have been better. Throughout the whole book I was waiting for the big reveal, what had happened to change Jared's attitude towards Tate. When it came, my first thought was WTF."


By CRenee:
"Jared had a really dumb reason for bullying her. Tate forgave and forgot everything he did to her far too quickly and easily after learning his reasons. There really is no good excuse for bullying, which Tate acknowledges, but then seems to ignore. Then everything was rainbows, butterflies, and professions of love between Tate and Jared.

The 'obligatory' misunderstanding between the two main characters came so late in the book that I was sure (or at least I hoped) that it was not going to happen. It did happen. it was completely unnecessary. And, luckily, it was resolved relatively quickly.

Tate was fickle and hypocritical. Not character traits I enjoy in a leading character.
The one good thing I can say about Tate is her self-defense skills were exceptional!
I don't like giving bad reviews to authors because I know they work hard but I felt like this book could have benefitted from a little more direction."

there's loads more - even some of the 5* and 3* reviews mentioned it - but it's gonna take up too much space

Goddess wrote: "If it makes you feel better to think it's ok for older teens to read- then we shall agree to disagree. I posted a link why it's not - with studies illustrating pertinent points - but i guess whatev..."

Parents are not the SOLE influence but they should be the MAJOR one. I really do believe that if external factors like books and movies and media and video games have more influence over your child than you do as the parent, that is entirely on you as the parent to figure out why that is happening in YOUR household and you also need to realize that each household is different. The problem might not necessarily lie with the media.

Example...."Video games are bad. My son plays all day long and does nothing else." vs. "Video games are not bad but I only allow my son to play for no more than one hour a day during the week and only after all hw and chores are completed." Is the video game really the true underlying problem in the first household? I don't always think it is.

I admit that I did not click your link or look at any stats there. I will though. Although, I do tend to think that stats can be very easily manipulated or misrepresented. I'm not trying to imply that this is the case with you. This is just me speaking in general terms. I always approach them with a very discerning and analytical mindset.

I really don't think that I "excused" bullying. I do think that I approach it differently than you seem to, though. I think that one of the best ways to combat it is to truly understand why it is happening in the first place and it is important to understand that kids are individuals. There is no one reason for bullying. There is no one way to deal with it. Making an attempt to understand why a certain thing is happening between two or more people is not the same tolerating, excusing or condoning it and shouldn't automatically be construed as such.

Having the ability to forgive is not a sign of weakness, imo. I wouldn't characterize Tate as having no backbone just because she was able to forgive Jared for what he'd done. (Don't construe this as me trying to convince you that he deserves forgiveness. I'm not passing judgement on her actions in such a manner. I just think that I understand the reasoning and motivations behind them in this particular story. In this story and in this context, given their histories, I can see it as being realistic and plausible.) Personally, I think she displayed strength numerous times over the course of the novel. She actually stood up to her bullies many times....something that many real life victims have a difficult time finding the courage to do.

btw, Jared actually does apologize to Tate toward the end of the novel and does try to redeem himself. If it's necessary I can look back and tell you exactly where if you really want to know.

Goddess wrote: "" Making an effort to understand why someone does something doesn't necessarily mean that you also condone or are excusing it. "

The point is - no one really understands why he bullied her - like I said- we are all willing to move on and forgive. But what was his excuse??
Other than "my mummy and daddy didn't love me" -

Why inflict that pain on Tate? She's meant to be his best friend - it's a betrayal and shows up what a lame and weak character he was.
And then why not redeem yourself after assaulting her (his behaviour follows within the remit of assault).

This is what some readers were confused with (including the person who raised the topic - which people have failed to address so far).



The book does explain why he did it, though. (EXPLAIN....not excuse. They are not the same thing.) He was a very troubled boy and I will bluntly say that I'm not exactly certain what to make of your inclination to write off alcoholism and child abuse as trivial "mummy and daddy issues". His father was abusing him and he resented seeing Tate in that happy family setting with her father and his Mom at the picnic while he was suffering so much. Tate didn't know and did nothing wrong, but he saw it as betrayal. It's not a rational thought process by any stretch of the imagination.....but troubled kids tend to have issues with irrationality. (Never ever tell a genuinely troubled kid that their reason for doing anything is "dumb", btw. You will probably not get anywhere with them after that. It never helps, imo.) That is where the rift in their relationship began. Later on in HS, he was still carrying that resentment, but he was also jealous of the boys that showed interest in her and made up humiliating stories about her to keep them away from her. (....as well as being privy to what the other boys were saying and doing, he also knew that not all of those boys had truly noble intentions toward her anyway.) None of this is an excuse for what he did to Tate....but I don't think the book tries to imply that it is. Tate even says this to herself and struggles a bit with making her decision to forgive him. Her decision to forgive wasn't quite as easy or as simple as you made it out to be, imo. A great deal happened between them to allow them to get to that point.

I also have to be honest and say that I don't that think it was intended for this book to be representative of all bullying scenarios ever. I didn't read Moby Dick and think that all whalers ever were only motivated by revenge. That wasn't the message that I got from it. Somehow I managed to understand that Moby Dick was Ahab's story and that all real life Captains are not necessarily like him. It's plausible that some could be...but Moby Dick wasn't trying to teach me that all of them definitely were. I think that is what you are erroneously doing with this book.