Classics and the Western Canon discussion

Cupid makes trouble yet again. Does it seem that almost all the trouble in the Metamorphoses arises from misplaced or misguided love or lust? Is this telling us anything about the Greco-Roman attitude toward sex?

This Proserpina/Persephone myth is a bit different from the one I'm more used to, where Proserpina is only allowed up from the underworld for a quarter of the year. I wonder which is the more "authentic" myth, if such a term has any validity.

I like Bernard Knox's comment in his Introduction to the Norton Edition:

"UNFORTUNATELY FOR OVID, Octavian, the adopted son of Julius Caesar, who in 30 B.C., after the defeat and death of Antony and Cleopatra, had become the master of the Roman world, was intent on turning the clock back. Using powers granted him by a subservient Senate, he established a whole legislative program designed to restore the old Roman family values. Octavian himself, before he assumed the titles of Augustus and pater patriae, had been no plaster saint. He had divorced his wife, Scribonia, to marry Livia while she was still pregnant by her divorced husband, and, according to Suetonius, he had even before that had a remarkable career as a libertine. He was also the author of a six-line epigram abusing Antony and his wife Fulvia so explicitly obscene that Martial (who quotes it in full) cites Augustus as his precedent for his own 'witty little books' stuffed with epigrams that Byron labeled 'nauseous.' But there is no moral reformer more fanatical than a reformed rake, and these severe laws, though not always strictly enforced, were there on the books to be used if needed. One of them made adultery a crime punishable by expulsion from Rome; another restricted advancement on the administrative-military ladder to high office, the cursus honorum, to married men with three children."

Martin, Charles (2009-01-31). Metamorphoses: A New Translation. Introduction by Bernard Knox. Norton. Kindle Edition. Bold added.

For some reason, Knox sounds like someone with a chip on his shoulder when he talks about Augustus.

Firstly, Suetonius was known for his penchant for scandals, and to quote him as a judge of character is like hiring a reporter for National Enquirer to write your biography. Secondly, Antony was a profligate in the late Roman Republic, and Augustus was far from the only one "abusing" him. Cicero, for instance, wrote a whole book (Philippics) against Antony. Thirdly, as Patrice pointed out already, I don't see what is so "fanatical" about his reform.

I wonder whether Nietzsche would consider dementia "truth of nature".

Patrice wrote: "Probably. He did wind up insane, right?"

And dead. But he did have a few things to say before that happened.

My copy (trans. Horace Gregory) says:
"If you wish truth,
It was not Perseus
Who stole her from you, but the scaled and crowned
Ammon, sea-dragon-god of swimming Nereids
Who'd come to eat the child of my loins."
It seems that , according to Gregory at least, Ammon was a sea monster that Perseus had to kill to save Andromeda. I wonder if it has anything to do with the exstinct mollusk known as an Ammonite mollusk. It would fit the sea theme.

Sorry for the double post, but here is an interesting bit on the Amonite mollusk per wikipedia (information taken as you will):
"The name "ammonite", from which the scientific term is derived, was inspired by the spiral shape of their fossilized shells, which somewhat resemble tightly coiled rams' horns. Pliny the Elder (d. 79 AD near Pompeii) called fossils of these animals "ammonis cornua" ("horns of Ammon") because the Egyptian god Ammon (Amun) was typically depicted wearing ram's horns. Often the name of an ammonite genus ends in -"ceras", which is Greek
 (κέρας) for "horn"."
Edited to add: Apparently the largest known fossil found was 6.5 ft (2m) in diameter. That screams sea monster to me; how about you?

Lily wrote: "One of them made adultery a crime punishable by expulsion from Rome; another restricted advancement on the administrative-military ladder to high office, the cursus honorum, to married men with three children."

I understand adultery was a crime for married women only (married men had to stay away from other men's wife's, but were free to try their charms on unmarried women, slaves, prostitutes). We would call that hypocrisy.

Btw, what a fight in the first pages of Book 5! It is seldom that a scuffle is so well described. I am a man of peace, but I really enjoyed this. Talking about hypocrisy ...

Patrice wrote: "Wendel wrote: "Lily wrote: "One of them made adultery a crime punishable by expulsion from Rome; another restricted advancement on the administrative-military ladder to high office, the cursus hono..."

Wendel, Patrice -- Just for the record, the quotation above is what Bernard Knox wrote. See msg. 3.

Lily wrote: "Patrice wrote: "Wendel wrote: "Lily wrote: "One of them made adultery a crime punishable by expulsion from Rome; another restricted advancement on the administrative-military ladder to high office,..."

@Lily: Sorry, blame my sloppy editing ..

@ Patrice: No, I wasn't really thinking of Homer. The fight at Cepheus's hall rather reminded me of a drunken brawl - more comic than dignified. But on a grand scale, never banal. Like all of the Metamorphoses: it's epic, but not really serious. Making it easy to enjoy the violence.

Parts of Book V read like a parody of The Iliad to me, with all the slaying from right to left, front to back, although here many turned to stone at sight of Medusa's head. I am also reminded a bit of the slaughter of the suitors of Penelope when Odysseus returned to Ithaca.

Lily wrote: "Parts of Book V read like a parody of The Iliad to me, with all the slaying from right to left, front to back, although here many turned to stone at sight of Medusa's head. I am also reminded a bi..."

Yes, it did get a bit gruesome at times.

I have a question, maybe it was addressed else where and I missed it--if so I'm sorry. One thing that seems to be a reoccurring is truth seeking. Also art, of all forms, seem to be highlighted as well. Is Ovid saying that only through art will we really see or attain truth?

Melissa wrote: "...Is Ovid saying that only through art will we really see or attain truth? ..."

Along with his art, given his life and its experiences (including his banishment), it seems to me that Ovid must have recognized truth comes in many guises.