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Plays, Short Stories & Essays > The Fall of the House of Usher - October 2013

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message 1: by Alias Reader (last edited Sep 09, 2013 10:28AM) (new)

Alias Reader (aliasreader) | 29362 comments What's this? In October we will be reading a series of short stories. We will begin with Poe first.
The stories are very brief and all can be found online.
All are welcome and encouraged to join in the discussion!

Short Story:
The Fall of the House of Usher and Other Tales  by Edgar Allan Poe The Fall of the House of Usher and Other Tales

Author: Edgar Allan Poe Edgar Allan Poe

Text of the short story can be found at this link:

http://www.vcu.edu/engweb/webtexts/us...

When? We will begin the discussion on October 1, 2013.

Where? The entire discussion will take place in this thread.

Author bio:
Born Edgar Poe
January 19, 1809
Boston, Massachusetts, United States
Died October 7, 1849 (aged 40)
Baltimore, Maryland, United States
Nationality American
Spouse(s) Virginia Eliza Clemm Poe

Edgar Allan Poe was an American author, poet, editor, and literary critic, considered part of the American Romantic Movement. Best known for his tales of mystery and the macabre, Poe was one of the earliest American practitioners of the short story and is generally considered the inventor of the detective fiction genre.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgar_Al...




message 2: by Alias Reader (last edited Sep 09, 2013 10:39AM) (new)

Alias Reader (aliasreader) | 29362 comments Discussion Questions

The Fall of the House of Usher Questions
Bring on the tough stuff - there’s not just one right answer.

1- Some scholars have criticized this story for being too typically Poe, basically filled with stock stereotypical characters you can find in all his stories. See, e.g., Edgar Allan Poe: A Study in Genius by Joseph Wood Krutch. Does this seem like a reasonable critique?


2- We don’t get too much info about the narrator himself; what effect does this have on the way we read the story?


3- What instances of foreshadowing can you find in this tale? Start with the title…
“Usher” is generally considered Poe’s best short story. What makes it so worthy of such a title?


4- Why do people like horror stories so much? (No, seriously…why?)
Poe’s narrators are often deranged murderers or crazy men…like Roderick Usher. Why do you think he chose to have a nameless, sane narrator tell this tale, rather than Usher himself? (Of course, as we posit in this guide, you could argue that Usher really does tell the tale…in disguise. See “What’s Up With the Epigraph” and “Symbols, Imagery, Allegory.”)

http://www.shmoop.com/fall-of-house-o...

======================================================
1. Poe precedes his stories with prefatory quotations that relate to theme and plot. Explain how de Beranger's quotation applies to "The Fall of the House of Usher."

2. Poe's literary techniques include dramatic openings for his short stories. By noting word choices and descriptions, comment on Poe's opening technique for "The Fall of the House of Usher."

3. In his literary theory, Poe claims that a story must concentrate on a "single effect." What is the single effect in this story and how is it accomplished in the story's opening? How is the single effect evident in setting, characters, and symbols?

4. Obvious symbols within the story are the house and "The Haunted Palace." Specifically, what do these symbolize?

5. What physical descriptions of the house's exterior relate to Roderick? To Madeline? To the Usher family?

* Source: Book Rags
=======================================================

"The Fall of the House of Usher"

1. What feelings does the narrator have when he looks at the House of Usher? Can he explain what causes these
feelings

2. Why has the narrator come to visit this house? What is his relationship to its proprietor, Roderick Usher?

3. What is unusual about the history of the Usher family?

4. What does the narrator notice about the air surrounding the house? Does he trust his observation? What does
he notice about the stones in the walls?

5. What kind of illness does Roderick suffer from? What are his symptoms?

6. What kind of illness does his sister Madeline Usher have? What are her symptoms?

7. What are the qualities of Roderick's paintings? What example does the narrator describe? What do you think
it means?

8. In Roderick's song "The Haunted Palace" the narrator says he first perceived Roderick's awareness of "the
tottering of his lofty reason upon her throne." What does the narrator mean? What story does the song tell?
What is the meaning of this story and what does it suggest about Roderick's mental state?

9. What opinion does Roderick express about the "sentience" of his family mansion? What is the evidence of this
sentience and what is its possible cause?

10. After Madeline's death, why does Roderick decide to keep her body temporarily in one of the walls of the
house?

11. What fact is revealed about the relationship between Madeline and Roderick, when the narrator and Roderick
place Madeline in this temporary tomb?

12. What behavior does Roderick exhibit in the days following this temporary burial? What effect does his
behavior have on the narrator?

13. On the stormy night about a week later, what does Roderick see out the window that terrifies him? How does
the narrator explain this phenomenon rationally?

14. Why does the narrator read a book to Roderick? What book does he choose and why? What kind of story
does it tell?

15. What correspondences take place between the plot of the story the narrator reads and sounds in Usher's
house? What are the causes of these sounds?

16. If Roderick knew that his sister was alive in the tomb, why didn't he release her?

17. In what ways does the conclusion of Poe's story relate to the title "The Fall of the House of Usher"?

18- What is the light that the narrator sees shining though the crack in the mansion? How does this crack recall the description of the mansion at the beginning of the story?

* source- http://www.eng.fju.edu.tw/iacd_98F/us...


message 3: by Alias Reader (new)

Alias Reader (aliasreader) | 29362 comments We will start the discussion in a few days. I hope many of you can participate. It's a short story and will only take a bit of your time to read.

In post #1 you will find a link to the story. So you don't even have to buy it or get it from a library. You can read it on your computer.


message 4: by Madrano (new)

Madrano (madran) | 3137 comments The opening lines are in French. One website translates it this way, "A quote from Pierre-Jean de Béranger’s “Le Refus(The Refusal)”, meaning “His heart is a suspended lute;
Time soon you touch it resonates."

Pierre-Jean de Béranger apparently was a popular poet & songwriter (chansonnier) in France. Poe changed the pronoun to make it possible to interpret it from a male or female pov. "His/her heart is a poised lute;
as soon as it is touched, it resounds".


message 5: by Julie (last edited Oct 01, 2013 05:46AM) (new)

Julie (readerjules) | 945 comments I read this last night and am curious as to whether people find it suspenseful or creepy. I didn't "feel" the story.


message 6: by [deleted user] (new)

Julie wrote: "I read this last night and am curious as to whether people find it suspenseful or creepy. I didn't "feel" the story."

I am almost at the end as well and am finding it not at all spooky yet. In fact it is rather dull. This is strange because I enjoyed The Murders in the Rue Morgue and some other Poe short stories I studied in university. When I finish it I am going to read it again to gain some more detailed insight (I hope!).


message 7: by Susan from MD (new)

Susan from MD | 389 comments Geez, you're fast on this one! I'm finishing up The War of the Worlds, so I probably won't get to this until later in the week.


message 8: by Julie (new)

Julie (readerjules) | 945 comments It's extremely short Susan.


message 9: by Alias Reader (last edited Oct 01, 2013 07:45AM) (new)

Alias Reader (aliasreader) | 29362 comments I've not read it yet. I don't know if I will be able to fit it in today. But I will try in the next day or two.

I'm really happy to see we have a few people participating. Even if you didn't think the story was the best, I think we can still have a good discussion.


message 10: by Madrano (new)

Madrano (madran) | 3137 comments Julie wrote: "I read this last night and am curious as to whether people find it suspenseful or creepy. I didn't "feel" the story."

I understand what you mean, Julie. I suspect when i was younger i thought it was suspenseful. There are hints that it might go several ways. I read the version which Alias linked to in the first post about the story. It was hyperlinked, so i saw a new angle to it. I mention this as a sort of WARNING. IF YOU PREFER to get your own interpretation first, don't click on the linked words until you have finished the story.

This reading was a bit more creepy, (view spoiler), than i remembered. I mean the story alone is creepy. If he wanted it to be more suspenseful, i think he could have dragged the spooky parts beyond the one night at the end.

I wonder if anyone else thought the description of Roderick sounded a bit like Poe himself? That was one of the hyperlink notes but something i realized when i read it years ago. Many of his poems echo his life, so i wondered how much, if any, his stories do. I'll keep an eye open for that in future readings of his work.


message 11: by Julie (new)

Julie (readerjules) | 945 comments Hmm. When I click on the hyperlinks, nothing happens except that they change color.


message 12: by Madrano (new)

Madrano (madran) | 3137 comments Interesting, Julie. Sometimes the link would show a definition of the word or an explanation of the term used. Other times, it offered the web site's thoughts for consideration. This happened even after i copied & pasted it into a document, so i could read it offline. The machine kept trying to hook me back up to the internet. :-)


message 13: by Julie (new)

Julie (readerjules) | 945 comments Were they popups when you clicked on them? Maybe my computer is blocking them or something.


message 14: by Alias Reader (last edited Oct 01, 2013 06:31PM) (new)

Alias Reader (aliasreader) | 29362 comments Yesterday I was downsizing some of my books and donating them to the library. I found that I have the Oxford World Classics copy of Edgar Allan Poe Selected Tales. :) At least that was one good thing about downsizing.

Selected Tales (World's Classics) by Edgar Allan Poe Selected Tales

Edgar Allan Poe Edgar Allan Poe


message 15: by Alias Reader (new)

Alias Reader (aliasreader) | 29362 comments Madrano wrote: "The opening lines are in French. One website translates it this way, "A quote from Pierre-Jean de Béranger’s “Le Refus(The Refusal)”, meaning “His heart is a suspended lute;
Time soon you touch it ..."


Thank you, deb. You saved me time looking it up.


message 16: by Madrano (new)

Madrano (madran) | 3137 comments My pleasure, Alias. I don't know French, so figured others might not either. It was interesting to see several different translations with the same general idea.

Julie wrote: "Were they popups when you clicked on them? Maybe my computer is blocking them or something."

Sorta like popups, in that i never left the page/story. A grey triangle just appeared with definitions & such. It may be your machine is blocking them. For ads, i have blocked popups but these had no notes about the popups. Usually i get a notice that the popup has been blocked. You are using this link, right? http://www.vcu.edu/engweb/webtexts/us... What appears are called "Study Notes".

Alias, i agree about downsizing & the books you find. I had stacks of paperbacks behind some shelves of hardbacks. Surprise!


message 17: by Julie (new)

Julie (readerjules) | 945 comments I hit the compatibility view icon and now the notes work (don't ask me what that means....all I know is that sometimes it fixes things)


message 18: by Madrano (new)

Madrano (madran) | 3137 comments LOL, the vagaries of computers, eh? I'm glad it's working for you now, Julie.


message 19: by Alias Reader (new)

Alias Reader (aliasreader) | 29362 comments 2- We don’t get too much info about the narrator himself; what effect does this have on the way we read the story?

-------------
I think it serves to make us the narrator. Thus heightening the fear the reader feels.


message 20: by Alias Reader (new)

Alias Reader (aliasreader) | 29362 comments 3- What instances of foreshadowing can you find in this tale? Start with the title…
“Usher” is generally considered Poe’s best short story. What makes it so worthy of such a title?

-----------
Usher-show or guide (someone) somewhere.

The house is a character in the short story. The house is the one the ushers him into it's evil.

We know things will end badly because from the title we are told it will fall.


message 21: by Alias Reader (new)

Alias Reader (aliasreader) | 29362 comments 4- Why do people like horror stories so much? (No, seriously…why?)

---

I think people like the thrill of a horror story. Yet they know they themselves are safe. The horror ride will end well for them.


message 22: by Alias Reader (new)

Alias Reader (aliasreader) | 29362 comments 1. Poe precedes his stories with prefatory quotations that relate to theme and plot. Explain how de Beranger's quotation applies to "The Fall of the House of Usher."
---------------
deb wrote:

Pierre-Jean de Béranger apparently was a popular poet & songwriter (chansonnier) in France. Poe changed the pronoun to make it possible to interpret it from a male or female pov. "His/her heart is a poised lute;
as soon as it is touched, it resounds".
----------------------------------------

The epigraph gives us a foreshadowing of the twin theme. Who is the epigraph about? He/She... Are they separate or as one. Is it the people who are one? Are the people one with the house?

We are also told in the story that the Usher family has not spread out of the house. The linage dies with the unmarried twin brother and sister.


message 23: by Alias Reader (new)

Alias Reader (aliasreader) | 29362 comments 2. Poe's literary techniques include dramatic openings for his short stories. By noting word choices and descriptions, comment on Poe's opening technique for "The Fall of the House of Usher."
-----------------------------------

I found the writing a bit difficult to read. Many words were unfamiliar to me. I found if I read the story out loud to myself I understood it better. I think an audio of the book would be quite good.

I liked the way the story opened. Poe sets the scene perfectly. The foreboding words dot the page. It's almost like a Greek chorus warning us of what is ahead is we dare to proceed. Dull, dark, soundless, clouds, oppressively, dreary, melancholy, insufferable gloom, desolate, terrible, bleak, vacant eye, etc.

Also I line I liked the line, "utter depression of the soul." That about says it all.


message 24: by Alias Reader (new)

Alias Reader (aliasreader) | 29362 comments 4. Obvious symbols within the story are the house and "The Haunted Palace." Specifically, what do these symbolize?
----------------

I will venture a guess here. The creepy dark house on a stormy night is the perfect gothic opening.

I think the people in the house and the house became one. They each took on the characteristics of each other. Also the house became a tomb, not only the tomb where the sister was put, but a tomb for them while they were alive. They didn't leave the house and we are told the family line ends with them. It's a weird unhealthy genetic and perverse incest between the trio (brother, sister, house).


message 25: by Alias Reader (new)

Alias Reader (aliasreader) | 29362 comments 5. What physical descriptions of the house's exterior relate to Roderick? To Madeline? To the Usher family?

The "vacant eye like windows", I thought were like Rodericks eye which is mentioned a few times.


We see the bleak house reflected in the opaque tern. A mirror image. Like the twins we will learn about in the story.

We see a small crack in the house. A crack that will by the end of the story fully crack the house in two as it falls down. Again the twin theme and a foreshadowing of the twins downfall, too.

As to Madeline, I guess the ghost like appearance of the house is similar to the glimpse the narrator gets of her briefly.


message 26: by Alias Reader (new)

Alias Reader (aliasreader) | 29362 comments 4. What does the narrator notice about the air surrounding the house? Does he trust his observation? What does
he notice about the stones in the walls?
=================

He describes it as a "mystic vapor". A fog. Fog of confusion perhaps. The narrator does not know what lies inside.

He notices that some parts were untouched by decay and other parts about to crumble.


message 27: by Alias Reader (last edited Oct 02, 2013 08:00PM) (new)

Alias Reader (aliasreader) | 29362 comments 5. What kind of illness does Roderick suffer from? What are his symptoms?

He says he as a "mental disorder which depresses him."

He is described as very pale with "cadaverous" eyes, "pallid thin lips". Walking dead?

He says he is overly sensitive to sounds, light and tastes. He has a "morbid acuteness of the senses."


message 28: by Alias Reader (last edited Oct 02, 2013 08:04PM) (new)

Alias Reader (aliasreader) | 29362 comments 6. What kind of illness does his sister Madeline Usher have? What are her symptoms?

Apathy, a gradual wasting away, and partially cataleptical.

cat·a·lep·sy
[kat-l-ep-see]

noun Pathology, Psychiatry.
a physical condition usually associated with catatonic schizophrenia, characterized by suspension of sensation, muscular rigidity, fixity of posture, and often by loss of contact with environment.

schizophrenia- again the twin theme.


message 29: by Alias Reader (new)

Alias Reader (aliasreader) | 29362 comments 7. What are the qualities of Roderick's paintings? What example does the narrator describe? What do you think
it means?

They are described as "abstractions".

Fuseli- Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuseli

You can see a copy of his painting The Nightmare at the Wiki link.


message 30: by Alias Reader (new)

Alias Reader (aliasreader) | 29362 comments 8. In Roderick's song "The Haunted Palace" the narrator says he first perceived Roderick's awareness of "the
tottering of his lofty reason upon her throne." What does the narrator mean? What story does the song tell?
What is the meaning of this story and what does it suggest about Roderick's mental state?
-----------------

I took it to mean that his very sanity was in the balance and he could tip over into madness at any moment.

His mental state is fragile.


message 31: by Alias Reader (new)

Alias Reader (aliasreader) | 29362 comments 10. After Madeline's death, why does Roderick decide to keep her body temporarily in one of the walls of the
house?
------------
Because her symptoms perplexed the doctors and were rare he worried they would perform an autopsy on her.


message 32: by Alias Reader (new)

Alias Reader (aliasreader) | 29362 comments 11. What fact is revealed about the relationship between Madeline and Roderick, when the narrator and Roderick
place Madeline in this temporary tomb?
===========================================

That they are twins.


message 33: by Alias Reader (new)

Alias Reader (aliasreader) | 29362 comments 13. On the stormy night about a week later, what does Roderick see out the window that terrifies him? How does
the narrator explain this phenomenon rationally?
-------------------

It is dark out. There is no moon or stars. He sees a fog. However, under the fog the objects around them take on a faintly "luminous glow".

The narrator attributes all this to the storm. He says it is "merely electrical phenomena not uncommon."


message 34: by Alias Reader (new)

Alias Reader (aliasreader) | 29362 comments 14. Why does the narrator read a book to Roderick? What book does he choose and why? What kind of story
does it tell?

------------
He reads him a book to take his and Roderiks mind off the storm. The book is a romance novel titled Mad Tryst. It is a tale of a knight who enters a hermits home to find gold protected by a dragon. He slays the dragon.


message 35: by Alias Reader (new)

Alias Reader (aliasreader) | 29362 comments 15. What correspondences take place between the plot of the story the narrator reads and sounds in Usher's
house? What are the causes of these sounds?

--------------
The sounds in the book seem to manifest themselves into real life. The house takes on the sounds that he is reading about. The line between reality and fiction become blurred.


message 36: by Alias Reader (last edited Oct 02, 2013 08:44PM) (new)

Alias Reader (aliasreader) | 29362 comments 16. If Roderick knew that his sister was alive in the tomb, why didn't he release her?
------------
I don't know that he knew this for sure. I think when he heard the sounds he thought it was his own fragile mental state, due to his depression, playing tricks with him.

At the beginning of the story he says, "I feel that the period will sooner or later arrive when I must abandon life and reason together, in some struggle with the grim phantasm, Fear."

So in a way it may be a self fulfilling prophesy. His fear maybe of being alone or due to the family history that is alluded to, he scares himself to death.


message 37: by Alias Reader (new)

Alias Reader (aliasreader) | 29362 comments All in all, I didn't think it was a bad story. I did think it was a bit difficult to read. I think going over the questions made me think more deeply about the story and made me appreciate it more. Though I think I prefer some of Poe's other stories more. For example, The Tell Tale Heart.


message 38: by Alias Reader (new)

Alias Reader (aliasreader) | 29362 comments Julie wrote: "I read this last night and am curious as to whether people find it suspenseful or creepy. I didn't "feel" the story."
-------------
I thought he set the Gothic creepy tone well.


message 39: by Alias Reader (new)

Alias Reader (aliasreader) | 29362 comments Madrano wrote:I wonder if anyone else thought the description of Roderick sounded a bit like Poe himself? That was one of the hyperlink notes but something i realized when i read it years ago. Many of his poems echo his life, so i wondered how much, if any, his stories do. I'll keep an eye open for that in future readings of his work.
..."

------------------
No, it didn't occur to me that the narrator was Poe. I thought the unnamed narrator was used to place the reader in that role.


message 40: by Julie (new)

Julie (readerjules) | 945 comments Alias Reader wrote: "I found the writing a bit difficult to read. Many words were unfamiliar to me. I found if I read the story out loud to myself I understood it better. ..."

I started reading on my ipod touch and then partway through downloaded it to my kindle so I had the built in dictionary!


message 41: by Julie (new)

Julie (readerjules) | 945 comments Alias Reader wrote: "Though I think I prefer some of Poe's other stories more. For example, The Tell Tale Heart. ..."

I just read this one and liked it better too. And it was easier to read. I think part of the problem with Usher was that the difficulty slowed me down which reduced the suspense.


message 42: by Alias Reader (last edited Oct 04, 2013 07:17PM) (new)

Alias Reader (aliasreader) | 29362 comments Just a FYI the thread for next weeks short story is up. You can read the story online !

I read the story in something like 10 minutes. It's really a quick easy read.


message 43: by Madrano (last edited Oct 04, 2013 10:39AM) (new)

Madrano (madran) | 3137 comments Alias Reader, thanks for taking the time to post your replies. Your answers are full of thought to consider. Below are a few of mine.

Alias Reader wrote: "16. If Roderick knew that his sister was alive in the tomb, why didn't he release her?
------------
I don't know that he knew this for sure. I think when he heard the sounds he thought it was his own fragile mental state, due to his depression, playing tricks with him. ..."


It was mentioned upthread that this is generally considered Poe's best short story. For me it is "The Tell Tale Heart". Alias, your reply to this question helped me realize that they are similar in that one questions what is real or not. How much was self-fulfilled prophecy, how much was real and how much did the characters create in their own minds. Interesting.

In post 24, It's a weird unhealthy genetic and perverse incest between the trio (brother, sister, house). ..."

In the next post Alias writes about the story's human characteristics of the house itself. I think this comment about the trio is on target. Had the siblings moved elsewhere, would they have survived? They probably didn't see that option & when an outsider arrived, he didn't mention the same, either. It's as though the three were one in some way.

In one of my first posts about the story i asked if anyone else saw a resemblance between the narrator's description of Roderick & Poe. Alias, i think i didn't stress enough that i wasn't thinking of the narrator himself but the way the narrator described Poe. Then there was the "opium eater" description, too.

This line of thinking led me to remember that Poe married a cousin. Maybe he started with that truth, then expanded into a story? I don't know. The images, particularly of the house of long-standing, led me to think the setting for the story was in England. And i thought so when i read the story years ago, probably because of the history of the house & family. Did anyone else think about where the story took place?

One reason i ask is because it occurred to me that the story could also be put in a political context, with some stretches. What if he were personalizing the government in England--the monarchy or royal line, in particular? Am i alone in seeing this?

In all, i liked the story. Gothic? For sure. But also typical Poe & i'm not sure the story itself could have been written any other way by Poe. His writing was dramatic and, i think, it fit this story well.

Finally, i thought i'd note that Alias mentioned but many of us probably noted the dark weather beginning of the story. This was first published in 1839. Edward Bulwer-Lytton's Paul Clifford with its opening sentence quoted by Alias, "It was a dark and stormy night" was published in 1830. Does this alter anyone's thoughts on the story? On the originality of Poe? Just wondering.


message 44: by Madrano (new)

Madrano (madran) | 3137 comments Oh, one more thing i meant to discuss. This is about whether sister Madeline was dead or not when they entombed her. The State of Health mentioned for her employed the word "cataleptical". In message 28 Alias gave a definition. The link i had for the story described it similarly but used the words, "a condition of suspended animation". This led me to believe that it's possible either way, as it might not have been far from her usual sleeping state. Wishful thinking on Roderick's part? Act of murder?


message 45: by Susan from MD (new)

Susan from MD | 389 comments Alias Reader wrote: "4- Why do people like horror stories so much? (No, seriously…why?)

---
I think people like the thrill of a horror story. Yet they know they themselves are safe. The horror ride will end well fo..."


I haven't started the story yet, but will read it tonight. I had to chuckle at this question, though!

I agree with the comments above. I think that the "safe" issue is that people are both safe from being hurt and are able to explore some darker thoughts and actions without hurting anyone else. It's fun to be scared about what might be out there and it's interesting to think about how far you would go in a "horror" situation.


message 46: by Alias Reader (last edited Oct 04, 2013 06:52PM) (new)

Alias Reader (aliasreader) | 29362 comments Madrano wrote:This line of thinking led me to remember that Poe married a cousin. Maybe he started with that truth, then expanded into a story..."
------------
I didn't know he married his cousin.

I just read this on Wiki:
Virginia Eliza Clemm Poe (née Clemm; August 15, 1822 – January 30, 1847) was the wife of American writer Edgar Allan Poe. The couple were first cousins and married when Virginia Clemm was 13 and Poe was 27"

Yikes ! Not only was it a first cousin but she was a child of 13 ! Ick.


message 47: by Alias Reader (new)

Alias Reader (aliasreader) | 29362 comments Madrano wrote: Finally, i thought i'd note that Alias mentioned but many of us probably noted the dark weather beginning of the story. This was first published in 1839. Edward Bulwer-Lytton's Paul Clifford with its opening sentence quoted by Alias, "It was a dark and stormy night" was published in 1830. Does this alter anyone's thoughts on the story? On the originality of Poe? Just wondering.
.."

---------------
It doesn't for me. I think the "dark and stormy night" sort of became the standard for how these Gothic stories began. Sort of like "Once upon a time..."


message 48: by Alias Reader (new)

Alias Reader (aliasreader) | 29362 comments Madrano wrote: "One reason i ask is because it occurred to me that the story could also be put in a political context, with some stretches. What if he were personalizing the government in England--the monarchy or royal line, in particular? Am i alone in seeing this?
..."

----------------
Interesting. Good point. It never crossed my mind to be honest.


message 49: by Alias Reader (last edited Oct 04, 2013 06:59PM) (new)

Alias Reader (aliasreader) | 29362 comments Madrano wrote:In one of my first posts about the story i asked if anyone else saw a resemblance between the narrator's description of Roderick & Poe. Alias, i think i didn't stress enough that i wasn't thinking of the narrator himself but the way the narrator described Poe. Then there was the "opium eater" description, too..."
---------------------------

It seems there is a long laundry list of suspected causes of death for Poe. The medical records are lost to history.

From Wiki"
"He wrote: "Had Poe the opium habit when I knew him (before 1846) I should both as a physician and a man of observation, have discovered it during his frequent visits to my rooms, my visits at his house, and our meetings elsewhere – I saw no signs of it and believe the charge to be a baseless slander."[30]"

More from Wiki on Cause of Death---Cause of death

Poe was originally buried at the back of Westminster Hall and Burying Ground without a headstone. This stone marks the original burial plot today.
All medical records and documents, including Poe's death certificate, have been lost, if they ever existed.[19] The precise cause of Poe's death is disputed, but many theories exist. Many biographers have addressed the issue and reached different conclusions, ranging from Jeffrey Meyers' assertion that it was hypoglycemia to John Evangelist Walsh's conspiratorial murder plot theory.[20] It has also been suggested that Poe's death might have resulted from suicide related to depression. In 1848, he nearly died from an overdose of laudanum, readily available as a tranquilizer and pain killer. Though it is unclear if this was a true suicide attempt or just a miscalculation on Poe's part, it did not lead to Poe's death a year later.[21]

Snodgrass was convinced that Poe died from alcoholism and did a great deal to popularize this idea. He was a supporter of the temperance movement and found Poe a useful example in his temperance work. However, Snodgrass's writings on the topic have been proven untrustworthy.[2] Moran contradicted Snodgrass by stating in his own 1885 account that Poe did not die under the effect of any intoxicant. Moran claimed that Poe "had not the slightest odor of liquor upon his breath or person".[2] Even so, some newspapers at the time reported Poe's death as "congestion of the brain" or "cerebral inflammation", euphemisms for deaths from disgraceful causes such as alcoholism.[22] In a study of Poe, a psychologist suggested that Poe had dipsomania.[23]

However, Poe's characterization as an uncontrollable alcoholic is disputed.[3] His drinking companion for a time, Thomas Mayne Reid, admitted that the two engaged in wild "frolics" but that Poe "never went beyond the innocent mirth in which we all indulge... While acknowledging this as one of Poe's failings, I can speak truly of its not being habitual".[24] Some believe Poe had a severe susceptibility to alcohol and became drunk after one glass of wine.[25] He only drank during difficult periods of his life and sometimes went several months at a time without alcohol.[3] Adding further confusion about the frequency of Poe's use of alcohol was his membership in the Sons of Temperance at the time of his death.[26][27] William Glenn, who administered Poe's pledge, wrote years later that the temperance community had no reason to believe Poe had violated his pledge while in Richmond.[28] Suggestions of a drug overdose have also been proven to be untrue, though it is still often reported. Thomas Dunn English, an admitted enemy of Poe and a trained doctor, insisted that Poe was not a drug user.[29] He wrote: "Had Poe the opium habit when I knew him (before 1846) I should both as a physician and a man of observation, have discovered it during his frequent visits to my rooms, my visits at his house, and our meetings elsewhere – I saw no signs of it and believe the charge to be a baseless slander."[30]

Numerous other causes of death have been proposed over the years, including several forms of rare brain disease or a brain tumor, diabetes, various types of enzyme deficiency, syphilis,[31] apoplexy, delirium tremens, epilepsy and meningeal inflammation.[32] A doctor named John W. Francis examined Poe in May 1848 and believed Poe had heart disease, which Poe later denied.[33] A 2006 test of a sample of Poe's hair provides evidence against the possibility of lead poisoning, mercury poisoning, and similar toxic heavy-metal exposures.[34] Cholera has also been suggested.[35] Poe had passed through Philadelphia in early 1849 during a cholera epidemic. He got sick during his time in the city and wrote a letter to his aunt, Maria Clemm, saying that he may "have had the cholera, or spasms quite as bad".[36]

Because Poe was found on the day of an election, it was suggested as early as 1872[37] that he was the victim of cooping.[38] This was a ballot-box-stuffing scam in which victims were shanghaied, drugged, and used as a pawn to vote for a political party at multiple locations.[31] Cooping had become the standard explanation for Poe's death in most of his biographies for several decades,[39] though his status in Baltimore may have made him too recognizable for this scam to have worked.[40] More recently, analysis suggesting that Poe's death resulted from rabies has been presented.[41]


message 50: by Alias Reader (last edited Oct 04, 2013 07:15PM) (new)

Alias Reader (aliasreader) | 29362 comments Madrano wrote:
Oh, one more thing i meant to discuss. This is about whether sister Madeline was dead or not when they entombed her. The State of Health mentioned for her employed the word "cataleptical". In message 28 Alias gave a definition. The link i had for the story described it similarly but used the words, "a condition of suspended animation". This led me to believe that it's possible either way, as it might not have been far from her usual sleeping state. Wishful thinking on Roderick's part? Act of murder?
---------------------

The part in the story where he tells the narrator the reason for his gloom he says:
"He admitted, however, although with hesitation, that much of the peculiar gloom which thus afflicted him could be traced to a more natural and far more palpable origin- to the severe and long continued illness- indeed to the evidently approaching dissolution - of a tenderly beloved sister- his sole companion for long years- his last and only relative on earth. Her decease, he said, with bitterness which I can never forget, would leave him (him the hopeless and the frail) the last of the ancient race of Ushers."

From this it is clear to me that he loved and depended on his sister. So I wouldn't call it murder. It was a mistake. Something that happened during those times.

I took a tour of one of the local cemeteries where I live. On the tour the guide pointed out one grave that was a tomb underground. It had a flat heavy metal rectangle on the ground that one I guess could lift up with a machine of some sort and go down to the burial. Anyway, next to it was a bell that was attached to the person in the grave. It was due to a fear of being buried alive. I guess something that could happen in those times without the medical tech we have today with machines that monitor brain waves etc. The machine is something I've seen used when someone passes away in a hospital. I think it's SOP.

It seems the narrator saw Madeline, too, and then fled the house. Unless, you subscribe to the idea that he really didn't see what he thinks he saw.

So I don't think it was wishful thinking or murder.
I think she was mistakenly buried.


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