Lord of the Flies discussion

I read a while ago that some critic made the statement that "Lord of the Flies" was the best book ever written in the English language. I stopped when I read that statement, because it's a powerful statement...and it made me think what I thought about that.

I could say I agree: "Lord of the Flies" is the best novel written in the English language.

What other novels come to mind? And why?

I'm not sure you could ever really come up with a definitive 'best book' there are just too many with their own pro's and con's.

Any 'best ever' statement will attract some contradiction. For me, the best English language book I've read is The Great Gatsby.

I don't know if this is because of plot or style but for me it stands out as a representation of English literature as Anna Karenina stands for Russian literature.

The Great Gatsby. Nice pick!

I think it's fun and useful to think about "the best", Nichola, because it forces you to defend a choice. Of course it's all subjective. When I read a book I read it both as a reader and as a writer. I read to enjoy and to learn.

I asked about English language books because I don't really like reading books in translation. There is no translation that can do what the author originally intended to do. Unfortunately.

I often ask myself the same question, but about movies. I have long resolved that the Brothers Karamazov is the best novel ever, handily beating out, AS I LAY DYING, the runner up.
As for movies, I am torn between LA STRADA, SEVEN SAMURAI and SEVENTH SEAL. Every time I see each, it rises to the top of the list.

I've heard various titles recommended as 'best'

'Light in August' (or, 'As I Lay Dying')
'The Magic Mountain' (usually considered the best European novel of the 20th C.)
'Bleak House' (usually considered the best English novel of the 19th C)
'Lolita'
'Ship of Fools'
'The Great Gatsby' (usually considered best American novel, 20th C.)
'Adventures of Huckleberry Finn'
'Don Quixote'
'Moby Dick' (usually either tied with, or ranked greater than Finn, but not greater than Gatsby)
'War and Peace'
'The Brothers Karamazov'

Lolita, yes, I'd argue that one on the list of Best in English Language.
Moby Dick, yes to that, too.
Faulkner. What he did with fiction language is mesmerizing.
Adventures of Huckleberry Finn is a fun ride. I was sorry when that book ended.

Well, a few that spring to mind for me (which I know in itself is a contradiction), Great Expectations, Frankenstein, Dracula, Romeo & Juliet, Wuthering Heights and Pride & Prejudice. My problem with choosing a 'best' isn't really linked to defending the choice it's more concerned with literally choosing.

I'm not too sure some of my choices will be top of the list for some people :)

Good point, James. I think there can be a "best". I'd make an analogy to music, which is an artistic expression, but some music towers over other music. Some music when you hear it for the first time seems as if the tune was waiting in heaven for the musician to come along and grab and put it into reality. It's that good and solid and right, as if it's been there all along and only waiting for someone to come along and find it. Some novels hold up that way for me, too. As if the story has been there all along and only waiting for the right person to come along and tell it. Maybe because I am a writer I look at this differently (than non-writers). I don't know. I do know that after publishing two books I have a new appreciation for what it takes to carry a work like this to completion, and satisfaction.

Nichola wrote: "Well, a few that spring to mind for me (which I know in itself is a contradiction), Great Expectations, Frankenstein, Dracula, Romeo & Juliet, Wuthering Heights and Pride & Prejudice. My problem w..."

I'll admit I've read only Romeo & Juliet.

I've read most of these, and I would not consider any of them the best thing in English. Some come close. Lord of the Flies is a useful educational piece but wouldn't make my top 100.

Now It Is Time to Say Goodbye by Dale Peck

Goulds Book of Fish by Richard Flannagan

Ulysseys by Joyce

absolutely peerless novels and all contenders for best in the english language

oh yeah! (du'oh!!!) I forgot to list Joyce. For sure, his two books are top-ranked in many regards. (Whether everyday people can read them is another matter)

I take "best" to mean that all other novels are not-as-good and no other novels are better.

Sorry to be so pedantic, but saying one is the best of all seems nonsensical. FHS, how can "Tender Is The Night" or "David Copperfield" be compared to "Lord of the Flies"?

I would say the subject matter and the complete lack of female characters in LOTF puts it into a certain category - say, "Intelligent(-ish) Boy's Adventure" - of which it may voted top one year. In other years, the winners might be "King Solomon's Mines", "2001 - A Space Odyssey", or even "A Clockwork Orange."

Actually, Golding considered it to be a bit of a millstone round his neck. He couldn't complain about the success it brought him, but the editors at Faber and Faber had persuaded him to cut out a lot of material pertaining to the political situation that led to the boys' adventure. His other books sold reasonably well on the back of LOTF, but I suspect one day the original manuscript may be published. It will be interesting to see how it is received.

To me, Their Eyes Were Watching God is the best written English book. It is poetry in prose. Every word is beautiful. But, this is my opinion. :)

Gatsby is my favorite when looking at the handful of books I've read off of common 'Greatest English Books' lists. Simply love that book and re-read it at the peril of never getting to a great many other fine books.

Robert wrote: "I read a while ago that some critic made the statement that "Lord of the Flies" was the best book ever written in the English language. I stopped when I read that statement, because it's a powerful..."

Lord of the Flies IS the best written book, I agree. I have to say I really enjoyed Bram Stoker's Dracula.

I don't get how Lord of the Flies could ever come close to being the best book ever. I didn't like this book at all. If someone has some explanation as to why this book is so great, I would much appreciate there thoughts.
My book choice for the best book ever is Laurie Halse Anderson's Chains(and the sequel, Forge)

I enjoyed Lord of the Flies immensely, but I would not include it on a list of best English novels. Gatsby gets a lot of votes, but IMHO it is writ too large and the characters painted with too big a brush to stand up as best. I much prefer Wolfe's Bonfire of the Vanities as a more sublime and better nuanced revisiting of Gatsby's themes. Usually when I see a list of best or most significant novels in English, Ulysses is at the top. I can't dispute this, but I have to confess I've never been able to finish it. There are just so many outstanding books available, I'm not sure a rating of 'best' holds any real weight. I certainly don't have sufficient credentials to make such a choice. I can tell you that my current favorite English novel is Lawrence Norfolk's The Pope's Rhinoceros. It was a tedious read in parts, but my efforts were rewarded in the end. It is inventive, engaging, subtle, rich, complex, hilarious, and wholly satisfying. Personally I think it leaves Lord of the Flies in the dust.

Kenneth wrote: "I've read most of these, and I would not consider any of them the best thing in English. Some come close. Lord of the Flies is a useful educational piece but wouldn't make my top 100."

Everyone's entitled to an opinion.

4everoldmember wrote: "I don't get how Lord of the Flies could ever come close to being the best book ever. I didn't like this book at all. If someone has some explanation as to why this book is so great, I would much ap..."

I can respond as a poet and novelist. It's considered one of the best English-language novels because of the writing. ;)

It's easier to gauge "most influential," but not by much.

I am going to have to go with "To Kill A Mockingbird" as the best English language novel.
IMO, it is the best AMERICAN novel.
The writing and the subject matter are very powerful.

Robert wrote: "4everoldmember wrote: "I don't get how Lord of the Flies could ever come close to being the best book ever. I didn't like this book at all. If someone has some explanation as to why this book is so..."
The writing? What about the writing? The writing was terrible. It was so confusing a lot of the times, never knowing who was saying what, or what who was doing. And it was soooo boring. There are millions and trillions of books out there with better writing than this.

I don't recall ever being confused.

Best book? I definitely would not vote for Lord of the Flies. The most thought provoking book, IMO, is 1984 (George Orwell), but if I were stranded on the proverbial island, I would choose to bring The Pillars of the Earth (Ken Follett).

I agree that Lord of the Flies should be on the list of greatest English language novels. Others that I would put on the list are: 1984, Absalom, Absalom!, To Kill a Mockingbird, Uncle Tom's Cabin, The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn, Great Expectations, Fahrenheit 451, Cannery Row, and All the King's Men.

I think I'd better read the Great Gatsby again. Everyone's always raving about it, but I read it in 9th grade and thought it was pretty boring and vapid. Maybe I was too young.

Great Gatsby ranks up there with one of the best.

As far as novels, to me it's unquestionably Ulysses. As far as books, however, Dubliners and Paradise Lost take it.

Too difficult to decide.

I`ve hear told that Kafka was the greatest novelist of the 20th century. I`ve also read MAGIC MOUNTAIN the best novel. Anyone still objecting to my capitalizing book titles out there?

Yes, 'Magic Mountain' is still considered the best 20th c. European novel. To this day. Its not just that the content likely holds over a dozen themes (which few of the other novels mentioned so far, can rightly claim) its *also* that the factor of language comes in.

You won't find any novel ranked by critics as 'great' unless it also demonstrates innovation with language. Twain certainly does that with his books, so did Melville. An author like Harper Lee happened to give us a vital, important, always-relevant story; but did she do anything particularly inventive with language? No, not compared to someone like Anthony Burgess (in 'ACO'). Or how about a book like John Updike's 'The Coup' where the narrator switches from 1st to 3rd person back-and-forth from one paragraph to the next? How often do you see a novelist attempt that?

Of course, its no shame to simply write a fully competent novel with a great story which is easy to read and exhibits great storytelling 'flow'. 'Getting the message across' --in many cases--is the legitimate first priority of any given novelist. Others, though--not only convey their story, but put fireworks into their very technique for writing the book in the first place..

Anyway, these are the kinds of considerations which enter into such critiques and comparisons. Its not 'just the story', its 'how the story is told'.

Something else which has been lost in all the discussion above about 'best book in the English language' is that a 'book' is not necessarily, a 'novel'. It doesn't have to be just a discussion of novels, when you're speaking about great feats of literature. A novel is just one, singular, form of 'book'. Its not the only way to write. For the most part--thought-provoking or not--novels 'entertain'. And entertainment is not the only experience you can gain from a book. You might want to learn something, teach yourself something, improve yourself, challenge yourself.

I'm reading a book right now which is not a novel but which I'm gradually coming to see is one of the best English language books ever written. Its this: The Anatomy of Melancholy.

One ought not compare any novel to something like Burton's work (which is more of an encyclopedia); but as far as what-to-take-to-a-deserted-island, nothing by Golding or any other novelist would make the cut. If you're going to spend years in isolation you'd want something like Burton. What he did feels like the equivalent of a hundred novels. Just sayin'.


p.s. Now, this:
4everoldmember wrote: "Laurie Halse Anderson's Chains(and the sequel, Forge)..."

What? A contemporary-genre-massmarket-throwaway-title, fantasy/PNR? --being nominated by anyone as best book in the English language? Kinda hilarious. Of course, I wouldn't necessarily poke fun in this case, if that same individual had not also said this:

4everoldmember wrote: "The writing? What about the writing? The writing was terrible. It was so confusing a lot of the times, never knowing who was saying what, or what who was doing. And it was soooo boring. There are millions and trillions of books out there with better writing than this. ..."

Sheeesh. Sure, 'everyone's entitled to an opinion'. Not necessarily, though. Harlan Ellison says it better: "You're entitled to an informed opinion. No one is entitled to ignorance."

Geoffrey wrote: "I`ve hear told that Kafka was the greatest novelist of the 20th century. I`ve also read MAGIC MOUNTAIN the best novel. Anyone still objecting to my capitalizing book titles out there?"

Kafka never actually completed a novel, I don't think, so I'm curious who you've heard that from. Also he didn't write in English. Same with Thomas Mann, for that matter.

Patrick
What does writing in English have to do with being the "greatest novelist of the 20th century"? Sincé when is the English language a prerequisite for that title?

Actually you are correct in saying that he never completed any of his novels. However, in the TRIAL, the last chapter does complete the story, but in doing so creates inconsistencies within the rest of the novel.

As for the best of the 20th, I am not stating it as my own opinión but have a relative who read him, hated his work but admitted that she had read somewhere the description of his work as being the best in the 20th c.which she claimed her univesity prof also claimed. I am passing on secondhand info, yes, and don`t have the exact quote. But I dorecall Reading something to a similar affect as his name being on a list of top 10

Geoffrey wrote: "Patrick
What does writing in English have to do with being the "greatest novelist of the 20th century"? Sincé when is the English language a prerequisite for that title?

Actually you are correct ..."

The 'greatest novel or novelist' is indeed not tied to being written in English. It just happens that this discussion is about the English language novelist and their work that fits that criteria. Being translated to and from any language causes some changes. Those differences are important to the culture/language they came from and so something is lost even with a marvelous translation.

My current favorite 'new' author is Roberto Bolaño. I am saying this based on being able to read his works in both English and Spanish. But his cultural, political, social, and religious context isn't based at all in English. Thus it is more difficult to directly compare an English 'version' of say The Savage Detectives, to a Cormac McCarty or Phillip Roth work.

It is an arbitrary question in many ways, but the Original Poster started it out that way.

A thought for someone who might want to explore this topic in a different way would be to ask the best novel in another language or, what is the best translation to English of a foreign language novel?

After my previous comment about why it has to be English (see post #38) language novel, I was reminded of a few late session in 'the last millenium' about this or similar topics.

Where often this really is about an individuals 'favorite' novel and a defense of it, there are a couple of front runners for me.

As far as American writers be they native English speakers or not, one who has works that should be in the running for best include Mark Twain(Samuel Clemens). He is often referred to as the inventor of the modern American Novel.

In my earliest introduction to academic thought on this topic, again ca. mid to late 20th Century, a writer that was almost always considered among the small handful of the best novelist's in English was Joseph Conrad. It wasn't that he wrote a particular work that was by itself the be all and end all, it was that he wrote so well in English. That is especially interesting as Polish was his original tongue!

Those are but two that really stand the test of time at the moment. I'd quickly pick out a Steinbeck novel as the best American English novel, but my favorite and the best of Steinbeck are very different.

The recently retired Phillip Roth is one of the great writers, but I'm not a big fan so I have trouble singling out a particular novel.

The most recent work originally written in English that so far for me has nearly reached this pinnacle is Blood Meridian, or the Evening Redness in the West by Cormac McCarthy.

There are easily 4 or five other works of the past decade that I think will continue to hold up, but a single work as the hand's down best? No. A top ten maybe.

Now a favorite book. Yes, I'll always have just 'one' of those. It may change from am to pm.

For now I'll leave this thought: I learned as much about 'reading' English novels from Crome Yellow than probably any two or three other books combined. It was just that phase I was at when I found Aldous Huxley's hidden gem.

James wrote: "Feliks wrote: "Yes, 'Magic Mountain' is still considered the best 20th c. European novel. "

It isn't Ulysses? I haven't read either one, but Ulysses is at the top of so many lists I figured it was..."

Kind of under the impression it was, too. Trust me when I say it's worthy of that title.

Ireland isn't in Europe, though. Also..among Joycean scholars, 'Finnegan's Wake' is usually considered the superior achievement of Joyce even over his own 'Ulysses'. Its considered to have gone even further. Yet, how many people actually apply themselves to it? When critics rank great novels in this tricky manner, they take into account how successful it is, in that regard. Is a book really great if no one reads it? 'Greatness' implies some kind of widespread success with audiences, wouldn't you agree? In addition to being considered critically superb. Although Mann --compared to Joyce--wrote a conventional narrative in everyday language, yet it is still accessible.

Feliks wrote: "Ireland isn't in Europe, though. And even among Joycean scholars, audiences, fans--'Finnegan's Wake' is usually considered the superior achievement of Joyce even over his earlier work. Its consider..."

The British Isles are considered part of Europe. And in addition to this, Finnegans Wake is considered by many to be greater than Ulysses, but also not by many. It depends if you value Joyce's power or his style. Ulysses is a far more powerful work, while still being stylistically fascinating. Finnegans Wake doesn't have the emotional power that Ulysses does, but goes even further with style.

Feliks wrote: "Ireland isn't in Europe, though. And even among Joycean scholars, audiences, fans--'Finnegan's Wake' is usually considered the superior achievement of Joyce even over his earlier work. Its consider..."

Also, I personally think that the greatest thing Joyce ever wrote was "The Dead," a short story from Dubliners. I think those 70 pages or so are greater than any novel, play, or other story ever written.

Best is vague, but even at that, Lord of the Flies doesn't rank for me in any category of "best". I especially dislike it's view of human nature.

Feliks wrote: "Yes, 'Magic Mountain' is still considered the best 20th c. European novel. To this day. Its not just that the content likely holds over a dozen themes (which few of the other novels mentioned so fa..."

What? A contemporary-genre-massmarket-throwaway-title, fantasy/PNR? --being nominated by anyone as best book in the English language? Kinda hilarious. Of course, I wouldn't necessarily poke fun in this case, if that same individual had not also said this:...

You have taken your disagreement with me way too far.
FYI: Chains is a work of historical fiction about slaves in 1776, New York.
FYI: Do you think I don't know what good writing is? I defininetly do. Chains is a great example. And before you tell me it's not, why don't you read the book for yourself?
FYI: Eveyone is intitled to an oppinion. NO EXEPTIONS.

Faroe Island, Iceland, Ireland, Isle of Mann, Orkneys, Shetlands and Azores are all part of Europe, although I am not sure of the last. Isn`t it off the coast of Morocco?

Feliks, Ireland is in Europe. Not sure which map you're looking at there Hun.

Melinda wrote: "I think I'd better read the Great Gatsby again. Everyone's always raving about it, but I read it in 9th grade and thought it was pretty boring and vapid. Maybe I was too young."

I did that too, and hated it. When I came back to it as an adult, the novel blew me away. I would say (of couse IMHO), Lolita (there's not a misplaced word in that novel!), Gatsby, Sophies Choice, Dracula - That's not exactly picking the best, is it?....

4everoldmember wrote: "I don't get how Lord of the Flies could ever come close to being the best book ever. I didn't like this book at all. If someone has some explanation as to why this book is so great, I would much ap..."

It has to do with the theme, symbolism and other things. As someone else posted, it's a great educational book. I liked it, but I wouldn't call it the best ever.

Robert wrote: "4everoldmember wrote: "I don't get how Lord of the Flies could ever come close to being the best book ever. I didn't like this book at all. If someone has some explanation as to why this book is so..."

Exactly. This novel was my first look at symbolism.

I don't know - I lean toward The Lord of the Rings, I Will Fear No Evil, The Shadow Out of Time, The Wind-up Girl, or The Jesus Incident as being strong contenders. Of course, that leaves out Eco, Lem, Achebe, and fabulous short story writes like Clark Ashton Smith. Lots of good words out there.

It`s about the truth of human nature that so many people refuse to consider. That`s why it`s so great.