Q&A with Dave Cullen discussion

Hi Goodreaders,

I will be here to discuss Columbine from June 10-24. [image error]

We can talk about the content, structure, writing process, researching, influences on my writing, problems I faced, etc. Whatever you like.

I will come by daily to respond. (I'm on mountain time in Denver, and not an early riser, but often working well into the night.)

I'm eager to answer your questions, and learn from you as well. Chatting with readers is one of my favorite activities. I've got some questions for you guys, too, but I'll wait a bit on those.

Feel free to post questions in advance.

Thanks for participating.

Dave Cullen

Hi Dave... Really enjoyed the book. And it's great to have a forum to discuss it with you.

I'd like to ask why you decided against having pictures in the book?

Steve

Dave, I learned a lot from your book and its tragic subject. I wondered what was the impetus behind using the structure you did in the book (two timelines, one for the killers and one for the event aftermath and victims), and if you considered other ways of structuring the content? Were you concerned that this particular way of structuring the content might "equate" the killers with their victims?

Hi Dave,

I have not read your book, but it is my next Amazon.com purchase. I hope you do not mind if I just lurk, or even ask questions that might be answered in the book?

Thanks for posting the link to your Q&A session.
Dee Marie

Dave,

I really enjoyed your book and also watched some interviews that you participated in. I was really disappointed when Oprah cancelled the show you had done. Did she give you any indication that she would ever show it on the air?

Becky

Thanks for the early interest.

In deference to the people who were told it's starting tomorrow, I'll hold off answering until then, so no one feels we started without them. But I can't wait to dive in. How nice to have questions queued up. I'll see you tomorrow.

Dave - I wondered about all of the FBI information - were there any recommendations for schools in the 10 yrs post Columbine? Could they should they have done things differently? Also I wondered if there was any information about the relationship between the school and Eric's parents. I just wonder if there was ANYthing that could have been done to prevent this.
Loved the book!!!!

I'm curious too, is Oprah ever going to air the show she did with you that originally was going to be shown on April 20th?

Thanks for opening up this conversation, Dave!
Marti at Denver's Tattered Cover

Wildcats40 wrote: "Dave,

I really enjoyed your book and also watched some interviews that you participated in. I was really disappointed when Oprah cancelled the show you had done. Did she give you any indication th..."

Dave, I just finished your book. Do you know if one of the boys did most of the shootings that resulted in injuries or deaths or was it basically 50-50?

Hey, thanks to everyone for stopping by. I've got a free sec, so I'll do a few quickies and then head back in about an hour.

I'm so glad you asked about structure, Michelle, but that's a biggie. I'll come back to it.

I've found it's easier for you guys to find answers if I start a separate post to address each topic, so I'll proceed that way. (Though I tend to blab, so sometimes I have to come back a couple times to get everything across. And of course followups are welcome.)

Dee and other lurkers: Lurking is most welcome. I have a web forum, and learned early on that for every poster there are 10-20 lurkers (at least on that site. I don't know if the ratios hold steady throughout the web.) At first I was frustrated and begged them to chat with us, but pretty soon I got it: Some people want to ask talk, some want to listen. Both are fine. I learned a lot about lurkers over time through PMs where many explained their reticence. You lurkers have a special place in my heart. Delurk any time, or don't.

Joanne: Do you know if one of the boys did most of the shootings that resulted in injuries or deaths or was it basically 50-50?

In the early minutes, it was mostly Eric. Only five rounds were recovered from Dylan outside. Eric shot grossly higher out there.

Once they got into the library, it was much closer. They both shot heavily. Eric killed more people, but Dylan shot quite a few.

I'll see if I can dig up the exact numbers. There are a zillion stats and I don't like to quote numbers from memory without checking them.

Wild & Marti (I hope it's OK to abbreviate names):

The Harpo producers eventually told us they don't expect to ever air the show. That was disappointing, but life goes on. (I'm going to write a blog post about some of the experience soon, and I'll link or post here.)

I just recently learned that the book will be featured in O Magazine, and Oprah.com, and in a freak coincidence, they posted it on their site just this morning. (MAJOR coincidence. I got up to check out this thread, and saw an email from my publicist about the site. I had no idea it was going up today. I just whipped out an email to my family. I hadn't even told them about it coming, because I didn't want to get my/their hopes up until I saw it print this time. Most of them came to the Oprah taping with me, which was priceless. They were pretty bummed when it got canceled, too.)

I'll come back with links, but I want to answer more questions first. And I need BREAKFAST! (I often work till 1 or 2 a.m. and then sleep till 9ish. I'm not a morning person.)

---

Marti, so nice to have you from Tattered Cover, my favorite bookstore on earth. I live a short walk from the Colfax store and drop in all the time. I wrote a bit of this book in that store, in the old opera boxes, or whatever they are. What a wonderful place.

Dave ~

I finished Columbine a couple of weeks ago and thought it was fascinating . . . so much I hadn't understood.

I wonder if there's any particular interview you wish you had scored but didn't? Eric and Dylan's parents, of course, but perhaps there's someone else who could have provided an essential piece of information you felt was lacking.

Thanks for the terrific book and for participating in this Q&A.

~ Anne @ Vroman's Bookstore

Shandon,

I'll jump in with another quickie on who I would hace loved to talk to: The four parents, definitely, and then Dr. Albert, Eric's psychiatrist. (And the brothers.) And several of the killers' friends, who wouldn't talk, especially Nate, Chris and Zack.

Luckily, they all talked to the cops, who released detailed reports, and some did interviews early on, and all the friends talked about each other to the cops, and some appeared in the videos, etc., and I spoke to other friends and classmates and teachers. So I was able to stitch a lot together. But sure, there are people I'd love to talk to.

Hey Dave,

As much as I always want to stay a “lurker” the reporter in me always insists on asking questions.

The subject of your book is very close to my heart. Like many stunned viewers, I clearly recall watching the events as they unfolded on television. As the week passed, the kept thinking, "I want to know more about what led up to the that horrific day."

Please let me preface the following question with the fact that I feel your book needed to be written, and the back stories of the shooters and the victims needed to be told.

I am sure you agree, there is a fine line between reporting and exploiting. So, I have to ask...Did you ever experience an inner struggle in writing about the incident, especially in regards to garnering financial gains from the book sales?

Paula,

The main thing I would like to see with my own eyes is The Basement Tapes. (Jeffco was angry with me at the time they were shown, because of my expose in Salon a few months earlier, where I published the first leaks from Eric's journal, etc.) I was excluded from that showing. I still rue that.

I'd love to see them.

I'd also love to hear/read the parents' depositions. I'll have to wait until 2027.

Those are the biggies.

I'm curious to hear the "Nixon" tape. Kate Battan assures me there's nothing more significant on it, which is probably true, but I'd like to hear. (Jeffco published a few chilling lines from it, but I'd also like to hear them in Eric's voice.)

Beyond that, I'd like to see the missing parts of the Guerra file that were never recovered. And who knows what might still be out there.

All in all, though, we have an amazing data pool to draw from. Agent Fuselier said he'd never seen deceased killers leave this much behind. So we probably know most of what we will ever know, and new data will probably tweak our understanding for the most part. But you never know.

Seeing that this happened 10 years ago and then last year we had the terrible Virginia Tech shooting how do you feel we as parents can stand up and voice when we feel that our children should be better protecting in schools. I know when I was in school you kept your mouth shut nad never looked at anyone as you moved from class to class. My daughter who is now in middle school has not had to deal with such things but I feel safe with the fact that her school is locked from the outside and that you can not get into the school without the main office letting you in. Although the Columbine shooting ang the Virginia Tech shoot happened by students themselves. With all your research what do feel we as a society should do to make sure this never happens again?

I feel like the people of america are so tightly wound that we can just freak out at anything really. There is too much of trying to keep up with everyone else and never feeling as though you fit in anywhere. I wonder if those boys parents were like that too and that is where they started with feeling different. Will we ever know? Will our children ever really be safe? Will we as a nation ever learn that actions like school shootings never solve the real problems.

Thanks
Jen

Dave,
I would like to know what was the biggest problems you had when it comes to compile the information and materials to write this amazing book?

And when you were writing it, did you ever felt like this subject got under your skin? While I was reading I thought it was something it needed to be told, but at the same time I started having shivers when I thought about this painfull experience.

That's why I was wondering what were your feelings when you were writing this book, and how did you prepare yourself to write about this sensitive subject.

Milena

Hey Dave,
I finished the book last week and thought it one of the best reads I'd had in a long time, truely absorbing.

At the end of it I found myself wondering about how you came to be so involved; what lead you to first become involved in the case? and when abouts did you decide that you were going to publish an accurate account of what happened?

Also, just how much of the evidence were you allowed to see? I understand from above that The Basement Tapes were restricted but did you ever get your hands on the original diaries or any other things left by the boys?

Jack

OK, I've got some catching up to do.

Steve,
Pictures:

Columbine was so heavily covered that I knew readers would already have a visual sense of the event: the school, the shooters, and images of the survivors, like the kids running from the school with their hands on their heads.

We all had this newsy conception of Columbine, and I knew that would be where I would meet most readers, but I wanted the newsy aspect to end there. Films influence my work a great deal, and songwriters do, too. I try to create my scenes visually the way films, songs and novels do. I like books that transport you to another world and allow you to create it in your own mind. So I knew from the start I didn't want any photos. I was relieved to hear my editor and agent both agreed. If photos are necessary, then I haven’t done my job yet.

Now if the reader feels satisfied with the image but still feels curious about the actual people, or the expressions on their faces April 20 or during the recovery, that’s understandable, and that stuff is all over the web. In fact, I’ve got all sorts of pictures and links on my site, so they can get to it very easily if it will enhance the experience for them either after or during the reading. But I wanted the story to stand on its own.

A quickie for Jack,

The Basement Tapes are one of the few things known and NOT released. I saw the rest, and have been through the good stuff endless times.

I have an Eric filing shelf to my left (one of those mailbox-slot things with two columns of eight slots each) and Dylan's is to my right). But the killers' journals rarely leave my desk. They're sitting right here beside me. I have so many margin notes and highlights on them that I had to start color-coding, and then color-coding the post-its marking the best ones into different categories. I also created spreadsheets breaking down the evolution of each journal in all sorts of different ways.

Tbe cops released nearly 1,000 pages of writings the boys left, and I read it all. The hard part was finding stuff again. I had a researcher index every item, which I added to, and I use that all the time to find things, especially when I can't find a hardcopy. But most of the good stuff I have printed, marked up like crazy and sorted by killer. (Eg, for Eric I have a slot for web writings, yearbook, Diversion file, Wayne, dattimer, school stories early, school stories late, etc.)

All the videos that were released I have each scene logged, so I can find them, and I have watched endlessly. (And on the Basement Tapes, the cops released a lengthy description--about ten pages--and I have all the news stories, and have spreadsheets cataloging all the things they said on each subject on each tape.

I keep all the killers' friends police files close, too. The sheriff's report I find easiest to just click online.

And I have shelves and shelves of material around the room.

GROUND RULES:

My main rule is no stringent rules. Anyone is free to comment/respond/clarify on anything posted by me or a reader. This is a wide open discussion.

When I respond, I will try to call out the name of the one who asked personally, but the answer is to everyone interested, and feel free to jump in.

Jack: I found myself wondering about how you came to be so involved; what lead you to first become involved in the case? and when abouts did you decide that you were going to publish an accurate account of what happened?

I'm going to give a really long answer to Jack's question, which will also lay the foundation for Michelle's on structure, and Dee's on ethics:

I happened to turn on the TV while sitting down to lunch a bit before noon on April 20. It was just hitting TV. Within about two minutes, I called the editor I'd worked with at Salon.com in San Francisco, and left a voice mail.

When I drove out to Columbine, I didn't think anyone would be killed, or that Salon would even want a story. I just drove out just in case. I wasn't sure where the school was, but I drove out Highway 6 and then I saw the choppers circling. I gasped. I drove toward them until I hit the police barrier. I parked my car in a lot nearby, got out and ran. I got to the Columbine Library in Clement Park, where I saw lots of people. It had been set up as one of two rendezvous points.

Most of the scenes in the book set there are from what I witnessed and recorded that day. (I brought a notepad and a videocassette recorder.) Some was filled in by the accounts of other parents who I would not meet for months or years. (We probably all saw each other that day, but were just strangers to each other.)

Getting to know the survivors out in Clement Park is what really kept me coming back, though. That chapter called Vacant describes the morning after, and it did a HUGE number on me. I was terrified for those kids. The first day I was focused on the dead, but starting that second morning, and for a long time after, I was thinking about the living. What was going to happen to them? There was still time to save them.

That was the first of two big drives to write the book, though I was not thinking of a book for a long time. But looking back, that's when I was hooked. April 21, around 10 a.m.

After the first week, my editor and I agreed I would dive into an ethnographic piece on the religious fervor in the area, by attending the churches, enrolling in bible study at Cassie's church (with permission from her minister), etc. Nobody seemed to be telling that story either.

Later that summer, I got really frustrated that we didn't know what had driven the killers. So I started going back and investigating that. That was the second driver of the book, which never went away.

I first attempted this as a short ebook (maybe 75 pages) in July 2000, when Jonathan Karp, an editor at Random House called me and asked to write a book for his new ebook imprint there called AtRandom. He had emailed me in I think fall 1999 about my writing for Salon, and we'd stayed in touch. In 2000, he said I could write the ebook on anything, so I suggested Columbine, and he liked it.

It was a very small advance, and I was just supposed to spend a few months summarizing my previous reporting, but by then I felt I had a bead on the killers but only a faint one, and just had to know. So I spent a couple years, Random House gave up on ebooks, folded the imprint, and the book didn't really work out. It was too soon.

I kept at it on the killers, though, and in 2004, I published the shrinks' account as "The Depressive & The Psychopath" in Slate. That led to a book deal with Dutton in July 2004, I think. I completely reconcieved the book at that time, as being about both the killers and the community. I chose the ten major characters/storylines it would cover, and I stuck with those to the end. But at that time, did not anticipate the alternating chapters for several more years.

I signed an 18-month contract with Dutton, but it took much longer. I was not close to satisfied with what I had. My agent negotiated a couple one-year extensions, but then my editor left Dutton before I finished the full draft, Jan. 15, 2008.

The new editor was lukewarm, so last spring, we decided to ask Dutton to release us to try another publishing house that would really get behind it. We showed it to Jonathan Karp, who was now at his own imprint at Hachette (called Twelve, because they only do one book a month), and he loved it and bought it.

From Jan-May I edited it heavily in two separate rounds with my agent, Betsy Lerner, who is a great editor (used to be Exec Editor at Doubleday). Then I started over with Jonathan and went through it again and tightened it much more. Then with his assistant (with Jonathan's comments on his comments). All that lasted until about 4th of July.

Then we went through copy-editors--who are also fact-checkers, and had all sorts of continuity issues and just a massive review. Then legal and another round with proofreaders. All the while, I kept honing the prose. All that finally ended right around Halloween of last year, when the Advance Readers Copies went to press. After that, we were only able to fix typos, and it went to press for the hardcover in January.

---

That's a bit more than Jack asked, but I had a feeling you guys might be curious about the whole process.

Hi Dave,

Compelling book. Just amazing, despite feeling strange saying that considering subject matter. But it was a very thoughtful and important read...

One question that kept crossing my mind as I read (and I apologize if I missed along the way), but I was very curious what became of all the living victims in the library... meaning, when did they escape the library. My assumption, based on the fact there were no witnesses of the suicides of the shooters is that most students had either escaped at the time of their suicides or were all hidden in back rooms, hopefully locked?

At any rate, reading from their perspectives, the horror and the tale of survival, I was very curious on the hows and whens as to whenever any students escaped the library and what their path to safety was, etc.

My heart goes out to everyone directly involved in the tragedy as well as everyone including yourself that it has touched...

Thanks for bringing us closer to some sort of closure through better understanding...

-Greg B. (Chicago)

Dee:

I am sure you agree, there is a fine line between reporting and exploiting. So, I have to ask...Did you ever experience an inner struggle in writing about the incident, especially in regards to garnering financial gains from the book sales?

I'm not sure I do agree. I definitely felt a lot of ethical dilemmas covering this story over the years, but I don't think really in the realm of exploiting. How do you mean that--making money off it? (The end part of the question seems to suggest that.)

That's something I hear a lot from people in the general public, but it tends to baffle reporters and writers. I'm not sure where this idea comes from of writers getting rich off this stuff--off anything, actually.

Now at the corporate level, media companies make a lot of money--or at least they did, though the media industry is in a panic right now, wondering whether the whole thing is crumbling. Is that where you mean the question?

On writers, I sense that the public gets a skewed sense of our field when you hear about famous people getting paid, say, $8 million for a book deal. That's a handful of celebrities, politicians and performers, who are generally rich already.

I know a lot of writers, and most are struggling to cobble enough work together to pay the rent. Hardly anyone does it without some steady paycheck. Journalists on-staff have that, or did, but there are so many papers and mags closing and laying off, nobody feels safe.

I'll come back to that in a sec, but first some of the inner struggles I did feel:

1. Giving more attention to the killers, which we can talk about more if people want.

2. Getting the truth straight.

3. How to write about victims/survivors ethically.

On #3, I had lots of conversations and thoughts about how the press was mucking up the situation and driving people bonkers. I dealt with that by trying to steer clear of the bad stuff, and by listening to the survivors, victims advocates, etc.

There as a media summit, eg, which I mentioned briefly in the book. They were pretty up-front about what stuff bothered them the most. I listened and took it to heart.

Being a freelancer is tough to pay the rent, but the good part is that you can pick your own stories, for the most part--as long as you can find an interested editor, the hard part. I didn't face the dilemma that I think a lot of reporters do: where the editor wants something the reporter feels is bad. My situation was different, so I didn't have that. I did not want to be that guy knocking on doors or staking out victims, so I just didn't pitch those stories.

One big thing in particular I was also spared. As time went on, a lot of the people involved got most frustrated with the over-coverage at the local level, and I since I was writing mostly for a national outlet, that wasn't an issue I had to grapple with much. (I did one piece for the D Post, and at least one for 5280, Denver's city magazine. But those were in-depth pieces I thought were really warranted.)

I eventually became part of the Dart Center for Journalism & Trauma, which is focused on better reporting on victims/survivors of trauma. That taught me a lot about how to do that part of my job better.

---

So back to the exploitative idea. I think that's a big question for media companies and news orgs--which we can talk about if you want--but I have rarely seen it become an issue for an individual reporter.

Personally, I never worried about financial gain from covering this story; I worried about financial loss. I got mild panic attacks sometimes trying to calculate how long I could keep going and still cover the rent.

I spent much of these ten years going in and out of debt. The most humiliating moment of my adult life came about 6-7 years ago, when I was forced to go to my parents to borrow money to pay my rent and get me through the year. I was in my 40s. My mom begged me to give up writing, and go back to a corporate job. Eventually I did have to go back to work a corporate day job part-time. (They were flexible and very supportive of me working on the book.)

I have sobering news for aspiring writers. You better love the hell out of it, because it's hard to make a living. If you expect to get rich off it, I have two pieces of advice: 1) spend the money on lotto tickets: your odds are much higher; 2) Invest some of the money in counseling to address those delusions.

Nobody is in this for the money. Or they're a moron.

In the end, sales of my book shocked everyone. It peaked at #3 on the NY Times list and spent eight weeks on the list. (Actually, I got an email about an hour ago that it's going to fall off (to #21) next week, so eight weeks will be its run.) I think you might be suprised at how modest the numbers are, though. Books don't sell in mass numbers like movies or music. There are 165,000 copies of the book in print, but a great number of those will likely be pulped or remaindered. (It has been widely and accurately reported that Hachette went back to press with a large run after Oprah announced they would feature the book for an hourlong episode. Then came the anniversary controversy, and it was pulled.)

It looks like I will earn enough to pay off my writing debts and live modestly (ie, way below the median American income) for a couple years working on my next book. I'm OK with that.

---

Now if I missed the idea entirely, let me know, and clarify how you mean it.

Let me pause for a sec and thank you guys for so many kind words. It really makes this all worth it.

Thanks for the questions, too. This is quite lively. I hope I'm doing them justice.

---

OK, another quickie (this is the same why I write, BTW--rarely in a logical order. An idea for one thing I need to address pops into my mind, or sorts itself out and I take care of it while it's ripe):

Greg:

what became of all the living victims in the library... meaning, when did they escape the library.

As soon as Eric and Dylan got bored and walked out of the library, kids started calling out to another. Some wanted to stay, others suggested they get the hell out. Some braves ones went for it, and others followed. Pretty soon nearly everyone made a run for it, out a back entrance.

(I describe in the book how Patrick's injured friends tried to get him out, but he was not comprehending and they could not move him.)

When they killers returned roughly half an hour later, and eventually committed suicide, there were only two people left in the library proper: Patrick Ireland and the young injured girl whose name escapes me at the moment. They both went in and out of consciousness and recall nothing of the suicides.

A handful of staff were hiding in adjacent and semi-adjacent rooms further back, and stayed there until the SWAT team arrived hours later.

Dave, the information on how the book evolved and the financial info is very interesting. Do you know what percentage of your sales are to libraries versus bookstore sales? Also, I think I understand that Eric's parents have never talked openly, but Dylan's parents have been slightly more open. Who have Dylan's parents talked to?

Thanks, Joanne. At the gym I was fretting that I had blabbed way too much and should have edited. I guess the bright spot is maybe a window into my process: It's sort of a rush of thoughts spilling out, kind of a mess, often on first draft. Then I have to sort through it, look at it and pare it way down, keep the best parts. For me, it's all about the rewrite.

I think that's pretty standard. (I think) Henry James had a famous quote that I'll paraphrase: that he had to write 100,000 words to get 10,000, every time. It's a very inefficient way to work, but no matter what he did, it came out that way.

I will try to be a bit more concise, though.

On libraries, I really have no idea, unfortunately. I've just gotten anecdotal reports from lots of readers about x library system having five or ten copies. I assume it's a small percentage, but I've never asked, or been told.

That's another thing I've learned: they don't tell the author a whole lot about sales--particularly any kind of breakout. (For years I read Publishers Weekly regularly, to get up to speed on what to expect, so it wasn't a surprise.)

I learned most of what I did about my sales by being on bestseller charts, because those are published. I did about equal at the chains, independents (tracked by the IndieNext or is it IndieBound list), and Amazon. (That's actually kind of unusual, I'm told.) I did a little better at B&N than Borders for some reason. And I seemed to show up on regional lists pretty comparably, though higher in Colorado. (I was #1 in Denver for about a month, I think. This is the only place I know of where I hit that.)

My publisher would probably tell me a lot more if I asked. Jon editor and publisher at Twelve, and he has been great about answering my questions, but his time is a scarce resource and I try to avoid being a pain in the ass. I've learned one thing over the years: No matter what you're doing in life, you get so much time and resources, and you have to pick what's most important to you. Jon is a really gifted editor, one of the best in the business, and I want to use his time that way on my next book: both editing it and probably advising at different points along the way advising. He's always got books in the pipeline, and right now he's got Ted Kennedy's memoir teed up for fall, and I'm sure they have their hands full giving that the full tilt launch. When my book was coming out, he and Cary, my publicist devoted massive time and energy to it, and I appreciated that I was getting their time, so I don't want to use it up now unnecessarily when it's someone else's turn. So I choose my questions judiciously.

---

To my knowledge, Tom & Sue Klebold talked to one psychologist for a book, and David Brooks. My memory is that with the shrink, he agreed not to quote them directly, but to use their input as background for understanding.

The David Brooks thing actually came when David summarized my 2004 Slate piece in his NY Times column. (He credited me fully.) Tom read it, and was frustrated by it, and emailed him. They exchanged emails and eventually agreed to talk. David wrote a follow-up column about it. David was also generous with me about that, and talked to me by phone about what else they said, and his impressions.

That's it, I believe.

Through their attorney, Tom and Sue fact-checked about three pages of material I sent last fall for the book (I pulled all sorts of bits together into a Word document for them to look through.) They corrected/clarified a few things and added a few tidbits. That really surprised me, and was helpful. I greatly appreciated it, but of course I would have loved to talk to them about it.) There may be other cases like that out there that I'm not aware of.

Both sets of families also sent letters to the victims, and released statements through their attorneys from time to time.

Thanks for explaining your writing process Dave, and I'm really glad you were so honest about the returns (or lack thereof) of the writing life, and what you went through personally writing this book. I'm sure you never imagined you'd be the "keeper of Columbine."

I was glad to hear that it was the victims who first inspired you to cover this story, and I want to tell you that you did a wonderful job telling their stories and giving them an equal voice. I especially felt for the one parent who was involved in the lawsuits against the Denver police -- his name escapes me but he was the one parent who was always very angry and kind of the thorn in everyone's side. I felt for him the most. You represented all of the victims well and ultimately, I think, when I did cry at the end (which for me was at the time of the killers suicide), I felt that I wept for the magnitude of the loss they created as well as the loss of the killers lives, because there seemed to be many chances for their plan to be aborted along the way, despite the obvious truth that Eric was going to be a dangerous person, whether he was stopped then, or not.

Having graduated from Columbine 2 years before the shootings happened, this was a very tough read. Media coverage over the past 10 years has always been very frustrating to me so when I read this book it gave me answers to questions that I had been wondering for years. Personally, I appreciate you taking the past 10 years to bring all the stories together in one book. It was so well written and while hard to read, I am glad I did.

Dave,

Thanks for the answer on the decision to not include pictures.

Another question if you don't mind.

As I read the book, I got the feeling that there was genuine empathy on your part for Dylan. Not that you excused him, but you felt for him. Am I right? I did not notice those feelings for Eric. As heavily involved as you have been from the start of this story I am sure it's bound to happen. Especially for the victims both alive and deceased. But to have empathy for one of the killers must be a struggle. If it's true that you empathized with Dylan, is it possible that the reason is that you were able to get closer to him than to Eric? You mentioned his parents fact checked something for the book, and I know from reading the book that you had at least a glimpse of his funeral. Eric's family seem to be much more guarded with his life.

OK..That's either several questions or a big ramble on my part. Sorry.

Thanks!

Dave,

Thanks for answering my question, it was exactly the type of insight I was hoping for and I enjoyed reading the subsequent posts about life as a writer. I hope it's ok if I ask another question, just you mentioning a next project has caught my curiosity again. Do you know what you're writing about yet or are you just waiting for the write sort of thing to come along?

Jack

Michelle & Tara, I really appreciate those posts.

Tara, I know what you mean about the overload coverage. When I was rethinking the book in 2004, and hashing out ideas with my agent, many times I questioned what the hell I was doing, and what the focus should be. I was nervous about the fact that it lacked a single protagonist, which 99% of all narrative works have. I didn't even have two or three, I had ten. There are some ensemble pieces out there, but even those usually have 4-5 leads, max. Would ten hang together for a reader?

I eventually settled on the idea that I wanted it to be a comprehensive account, and yes, it would have to be way more than five to do that. No one could ever do the "complete" story, because that's more than 10,000 people and would run hundreds of thousands of pages. But I would take my best shot at getting a comprehensive look at the event between the covers of one book, so a person could see the breadth of the story unfold in one place.

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Michelle wrote: ". . . when I did cry at the end (which for me was at the time of the killers suicide), I felt that I wept for the magnitude of the loss they created as well as the loss of the killers lives . . ."

Michelle, I think you captured something really important there. I've had many people say they didn't cry until the end, which puzzled them a little, because they didn't feel the ending wasn't the saddest part. I think they were crying for the whole thing.

Emotions are funny. They well up inside us often, and finally spill out when it's too much. The thing that sets us off is not always the biggest thing, just the last straw.

The first time I ever cried at Columbine, I was taken by surprise. I think it was Thursday, during that scene I included in the book surrounding Rachel's car. I heard the scream, and was among the people who turned and ran like crazy in that direction, afraid something terrible had happened. I was stunned to find the scene of the girls around the car. When I saw the car and they started holding hands and singing it all just socked me: the enormity of what had happened, and what it meant to individual girls at the school.

I lost it. I held it in long enough to duck out and run for cover so no one would see me crying. I was suddenly embarrassed that other reporters or students would see me unable to handle it. It was in a parking lot near all the media, and I found a semi-trailer one of the networks had brought in just a short run away. I plopped down against one of the big wheels and sobbed uncontrollably. It was oddly deserted back there. I remember one or two tech guys wandering back there, pretending not to notice me.

There were a whole rush of feelings. I felt embarrassed for letting go, and ashamed that I had NOT cried until then--contradictions, yet both intense.

Until then, I had not actually thought about the fact that I hadn't cried. I had been thrust into a work situation, and you just shunt that aside and work. (I've since talked to all sorts of people about it. A cop or an EMT or a reporter or a doctor doesn't cry when they encounter a victim: You plunge in, stay steady and do your job. You cry later. This turned out to be later.)

I stayed about ten minutes, because I realized I had to get it all out, and then buck it up and not cry again while I was at the park that day.

That worked. Several moments made me mist up or even tear up while I was out in the field over the next several days, but I don't remember ever losing control like that again.

Bottling it up isn't really healthy. In retrospect, it would have been much better to talk to someone each night about it after I was done for a few minutes, and/or see a shrink or someone at least once a week, to drain some of it out of me.

I didn't really understand that stuff yet. I didn't know much about PTSD. The Dart Center has taught me so much about that. But I still make dumb mistakes in not getting the help I need, or recognizing it.

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So I was wondering about the process of reading this book. I don't know what that's like, really, because I came to know this stuff over ten years, and I don't know what it's like getting hitting with it all at once.

I'd love to hear more about what it was like for you all emotionally, reading it.

Did stuff well up inside you sometimes, and then it would hit, or . . . I don't know. Just tell us what it was like--anyone--if you're open to that.

I had tears pretty often. Reading about the bodies being left outside, Cassie's parents, Dave Sanders, the emotion of being thankful that their plan didn't workout they way the wanted, thankful to have a sister with B lunch instead of A. I think it is very different reading it when it hits so close to home, compared to if I were reading a book about the Virgina Tech shootings. I don't think the emotions stayed inside and would then hit, things would hit me immediately. I would want to keep reading, but sometimes just had to put it down. I really appreciated having the story told from multiple points of view. How did you choose who's stories you would follow? I am sure there are so many.

I don't mind answering that. I was worried about the effect it would have on me. but I felt it was important to read it and try to understand what happened and if there were any whys to the story, what they were.

I was apprehensive at the start because I was worried there might be a lot of gory details in the book like a detailed timeline of who got shot when, who bled when, etc. I was really relieved that this kind of story was NOT told, because not only would that have been stressful, it would have been insulting, I think, to the victims to have their stories only deal with the last few moments of their lives, which were so horrifying. However, the sense of dread I have felt reading other books of this type, such as the book "American Terrorist" about Timothy McVeigh, which I expected to feel, never arose, and I think it was because of the structure of the book, which began dealing with the victims right away.

I did often feel anger towards the killers, and frustration. When you read their writings a lot of things seem obvious, but the most enlightening passages, about the FBI profile of Eric Harris and the insights that scientists had into his pathology, were enormously helpful in helping me deal with my anger and NOT directing it toward his parents, his doctor, his teachers or anyone else "responsible" for him. On the face of it, I thought before I read the book that it would be impossible for teenagers plotting to blow up their school to really hide it for so long, but when I understand what Eric really was like, it made perfect sense that he acted many different ways to others, and hid his real intentions from them all. This made sense to me, and helped me deal with my anger and frustration. I found my overall response to be a lot more compassionate then I expected, given the enormity of the situation, and I really think this book has changed the way I think about media reports of stories that become sensational. There's just too much going on to learn, to make snap judgments about any event.

I did find though many times wishing I could go back and stop it, a very helpless and frustrating feeling that I suppose is normal.

Just another thought I had while reading it. We never think the people close to us would do something so hurtful even when the signs are there. I recall a friend who would notice things that were signs her husband was having an affair, but yet she talked herself into believing he would never do that and rationalize those signs. You never think your child would be involved in doing drugs, underage drinking, etc and you would never think your child would do something of this magnitude.

Reading the book showed me that it is important to really be aware of signs you see in people (friends, spouses, children, etc) that there is a problem and confront it head on, rather than avoid it and think it will go away. People can be capable of anything.

Jack, thanks. Ask as many questions as you like.

I'm not sure on my next project. I'm still working on promoting this one full time, but getting restless and starting to carve out some time to work on other things.

I've got a few magazine stories I want to do, on completely unrelated topics, and a few fiction short stories I want to write--a welcome relief.

After that, I do have an idea for my next book, which I have toyed with, but I'm not sure that's where I'll end up, so I'm not discussing it yet. It will be awhile before it gells and I can talk about it. (Meaning at least a year or two.)

I am really looking forward to getting on to other subjects, though.

I've got occasional speaking engagements lined up through the fall and spring about Columbine (orgs that have contacted me since the book came out), so it will be with me for quite awhile, which is fine, as long as it recedes to less and less part time.

Steve. Yes, I came to empathize with Dylan, and that was really unsettling for awhile. I wrote an essay about that and my personal struggle with PTSD covering this story, which Borders published online. I'll find the link to it and post it.

With Eric I never did, and I wonder if I should have, but it was hard to find anything there to empathize with. And it's so dangerous with a psychopath: we're all tools to them, they want to suck us in to believe their lies.

Dylan was deeply conflicted, and allowed himself to be drawn astray, down a terrible path. There was hope for him, and he spent much of his life trying to do the right thing, wanting to, wanting to find the right path. There's much there to admire, love and hope for.

With Eric, I wish I could have spoken to his parents and gotten more of a picture of the early Eric, because there probably was a lot there to love, too. I'm not sure we'll ever know with Eric how much was an act, and how much was real, though.

I am waiting for my copy of the book to come so I can start reading it. Given that you spent all of the last ten years working on this book to tell this incredible story. What are your thoughts on the way that Michael Moore has documented the story and focused alot of attention on the fact that gun control in America sucks? Although I do love the sene in the movie when he takes one of the survivors of Columbine to the Kmart headquarters because that was the store that Dylan and Eric bought their weapons from.

Also I wanted to thank you for volunteering that you have suffered with PTSD from this experience. Because there are so many of us our there and its not common for us to abmit that we have a weakness with issues. ALso I like that you told about your struggles financially through the last ten years so that people do understand the reality of what an Author goes through. The media does seem to portray that just because you write a book and it gets alot of praise that you are suddenly a rich person.

Thanks
Jen

Hi Dave,

My name is keiley. I just finished reading you book "Columbine" not to long ago. Along with that im doing a research project on Columbine to educate my 8th grade classmates about it and ways to avoid it. I just have a few question to ask you,and you may answer them if you would like.

In your book I read that when the boys wrote papers for their school work, they wrote a lot about violence. The teachers talked to them about it, and the boys comment back to them was, " Its not true, its only writing." Does anyone think that there writing made of helped them with the shotting of columbine.

This came to me one day when I was reading a article about Columbine on USA, If Eric or Dylan never meet each other do you think they would still have anger, and cause crimes? I dont think if the boys ever meet each other Columbine would of ever happend, but the two came friends and did almost everything togeather that no matter what would get them in trouble. Have you ever thought about that?


Those are just a couple questions, and hope you will answer them.

~keiley

Dave, How would you respond to the criticism contained in Alisa's review in which she basically accuses you of making things up to fit your thesis?

You will find the review at http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/56....

It's the only one star review.

I have not read your book myself but have it on my TBR list. Two of my GR friends gave it high ratings so I am conflicted. I always read the negative reviews as I don't want to spend my time reading books that are ultimately a waste of time, not that I think your particular book is that - just curious.

Ed

Hi Keiley.

It's very impressive to see you here, and to be doing such an in-depth research project in eighth grade. I'm really happy to see that.

Those are great questions. With the boys, it's hard to know for sure what was cause and what was effect, but I see the writings more likely as symptoms of what they were feeling--an outlet for those feelings--than creating the feelings.

At one point, Eric did write that working on the research paper on the Nazis was revving up his feelings of hate (I'm paraphrasing from memory, but I think I have the quote in the book). But he chose to write the paper on Nazis long after he had these ideas and urges. He was gobbling up all sorts of literature and writing angry/violent stuff, dreaming up violent fantasies, acting them out in video games, etc. But what I see is him having these urges and then finding outlets for them. It's possible that some contributed early on, too, but there's no clear evidence of that, and we see the angry vicious fantasies coming out in all sorts of different forms.

I do think, however, that there may be one major exception to that: Dylan's famous creative writing story in Feb 1999. Somewhere around that time, his thinking on the attack seems to have shifted. (Unfortunately, he stopped dating his journal entries around that time.) We can't know for sure how or exactly when or why that happened, but the strongest surviving evidence is that story, where he seems to take the idea out for a test drive, and likes what he sees. (And the end, he describes how the narrator, which seems to more or less be him feels about watching the attack/attacker, and he is highly impressed.)

I'd be careful about blaming the writing, though. Dylan seems to be thinking things through, and getting his thoughts down on paper. Dylan is to blame, so I wouldn't blame the writing.

We can never know what would have happened if the two had not met, but I think it's a safe bet they both would have had a lot of anger. Whether they would have done something like this, is very hard to know. They probably would not have done this specific thing separately, but it seems likely that Eric would have done something awful. He seemed headed that direction regardless of Dylan. Dylan is much harder predict, there is very strong evidence that Eric was the driving force behind this, and so without him, it's much less likely that Dylan would have done something like this.

I hate to speak in such generalities, but when we're speculating on what might have happened in different scenarios, there's no way to be sure.

Hi Ed. It's a frustrating review, and I am tempted to argue each point, because I believe she is mistaken on each, but have been advised that it's really poor form to debate bad reviews.

I will say generally, that there is a lot of cherry-picking of Eric quotes in there, which I have seen a lot of over the years, and it's frustrating. (It's also one of the chief complaints of investigators on the case.) You can pull a line or two from Eric or Dylan about jocks or Marines or what have you and base an argument on that. But Eric left hundreds of pages, tens of thousands of lines of text, and you can find him ranting on nearly everything, including slow drivers in the fast lane. But very few of those lines, in isolation, explain what drove him.

I spent years with the journals, and writings, and many more years consulting with some of the top psychologists and psychiatrists in North America. None of us agree with this reviewer on her assessments of Eric, and there is a very strong consensus that Eric was textbook psychopath.

If there are specific concerns of yours, I'll address them more specifically.

Dave wrote: "Hi Ed. It's a frustrating review, and I am tempted to argue each point, because I believe she is mistaken on each, but have been advised that it's really poor form to debate bad reviews.

I will sa..."

Thanks for your quick response.

I suspect what you say about cherry picking is true. Having majored in History, I did a little cherry picking myself when I wrote papers and my thesis.

Whatever...I will read your book for myself, make up my own mind and write my own review.

Ed

Thanks, Ed. I like your approach, and let me know when you review it--I'd like to hear what you think.

I wasn't sure how to respond. (Let me be frank about one thing: this is my first book, and a lot of it is new territory for me. I've written lots of magazine pieces over the years and a few have been controversial, and/or generated some angry responses here and there, but that's a whole different animal than a book.)

I should have responded to your summary, though:

. . . she basically accuses you of making things up to fit your thesis?

I didn't go into this with a thesis. I have no vested interest in any explanation. I just wanted to understand. I dug for the first year, and talked to a lot of people close to the case, and got a lot of responses that didn't explain anything. When I finally got access to the shrinks, and learned about their analysis, it was the first time it all started to make sense.

I wasn't satisfied to take their word for it; I started reading. I read the classic books on psychopathy and reams of scholarly articles, and debated the finer points and behavior that didn't fit perfectly over the course of several years.

I followed the same basic approach as Dr. Fuselier: attack the hypothesis from every angle and try to disprove it. It stood firm, in my opinion. It was a very convincing case.

The Psychopathy Checklist reads like a checklist of Eric's personality. (With a few items on the list where we don't have sufficient data to assess.)

I'm glad libraries came up. I have been itching to comment about them the past few weeks, so this seems like a good place.

I have really started to appreciate them this spring. A running theme on libraries in the culture is that they are dying, and I'm afraid I bought into that. Maybe they are, but man, I can't tell you how many people I've heard from using them to read my book. And I've heard many reports of long waiting lines, so it's not just one or two anecdotal incidents.

That is wonderful. I admit that I get a little discouraged whenever I hear how few books make a bestseller. I think, "Is that all the people that are reading?" But truthfully, a book may be read many times, and those library books, countless. That's the main thing. Readers. (Of course, in honesty, I want people to buy the book, too, because it pays the rent, but there are enough of those.) What I want most is readers. I had no idea that libraries were still so vibrant, and supporting lots and lots of readers.

And long after it has had its run and it's off the store shelves, it will still be on the library shelves, for people who want to read it. (For years? How does that work? Do they cull the shelves every year of books that don't get checked out much? Yikes, I never thought about that.) I just want it to be there when some dedicated student like Keiley comes looking for it in five years.

Dave wrote: "I'm glad libraries came up. I have been itching to comment about them the past few weeks, so this seems like a good place.

I have really started to appreciate them this spring. A running theme on..."

Dave,

Libraries are alive and well in most places. When times get tough, libraries become even more popular. My local library is packed most of the day.

I'm not a librarian but I think that libraries get rid of multiple copies when the demand wanes but keep one copy for a long time. This is especially true for non-fiction. I've gotten history books from the library that were 10 years old and hadn't been checked out for years.

In addition, in terms of readers, there is Bookmooch.com and similar sites where people share their books with others. Each operates a little differently but basically, with Bookmooch I get books I want for free and pay the postage to send books, I no longer want, to people who do want them.

If my ratio of mooched books to sent books gets out of line, my membership can be suspended. Other than that there are few rules and most of the members treat the opportunity with the respect it deserves.

I suspect for a book like yours that there are most likely at least 2 or 3 readers or more for every copy sold. That's not even talking about the used book market which is very much alive and well especially in my favorite bookstore of all time, Powell's in Portland, Oregon.

One of my fears about electronic readers like Kindle is that they will kill off the used book market. Though I'm sure someone will soon figure out how to transfer electronic books at no cost to the transferee.

Books have been such an important part of my life, the thought of no more paper and ink publishing depresses me greatly.

Ed

Thank you Dave, for your answer.
That helped me very much,with my research.

So Eric would of done anything bad, even if Dylan wasnt with hm.

Also when I was reading your book, in a chapter, (can't remember which one)it talks about Prom. With both boys wanting a date to prom. Dylan got a date, and im not sure about Eric. In the chapter it was saying the boy's wanted to have the massacre on the day of prom. What changed there mind?

Hi Dave,
Given that you spent all of the last ten years working on this book to tell this incredible story. What are your thoughts on the way that Michael Moore has documented the story and focused alot of attention on the fact that gun control in America sucks? Although I do love the sene in the movie when he takes one of the survivors of Columbine to the Kmart headquarters because that was the store that Dylan and Eric bought their weapons from.

Also I wanted to thank you for volunteering that you have suffered with PTSD from this experience. Because there are so many of us our there and its not common for us to abmit that we have a weakness with issues. ALso I like that you told about your struggles financially through the last ten years so that people do understand the reality of what an Author goes through. The media does seem to portray that just because you write a book and it gets alot of praise that you are suddenly a rich person.

And I have to say that There are 12 local libraries here where I live and they all have the book checked out to someone right now that is why I ordered it and am waiting for it to arrive.

Jennifer

Ed,

I have such mixed feelings on ebooks, but mostly good.

I doubt paper books are going away in our lifetimes, but they may (possibly) start to become more collectors' items, like vinyl with music. That will likely be a few decades, at least, though.

But if ebooks help expand the readership of books, I'm all for that. It looks like they will be a lot cheaper than paper books, and there are scary implications for writers and publishers getting even less and that impacting quality in lots of ways. (I sure saw all the ways the publisher made my book better. An entire army of people are part of the process, and not in a bad way.)

I'm not sure I personally will ever feel comfy with the conversion, but if kids growing up in an e world are more receptive to books they can access easily (and/or try out or whatever) and more cheaply, great.

As a writer, I don't care if people read it on parchment, paper, iphone, or listen to a narrator while they're driving. Reading is what matters.

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(Jennifer, I'll get back to you. And I still owe responses upthread. Sorry.)