North & South discussion
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Mr Thornton vs. Mr Darcy
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@Soph: Still loving our arrangement regarding Thornton and Darcy! Hehe. Question: Does that stand for the actors as well, Richard Armitage/Colin Firth or Matthew Macfadyen? Or the myriad of other Darcy actors I don't know. :D
Oh my! This is a very difficult question! I love Mr. Thornton because he is a determined man. I love his strength and his concern for the others. I think he is a very resolute man you can always rely on. And, of course, I love the way he loves Margaret :) But, Mr. Darcy stole my heart many years ago and I can't help it: I will always choose Mr. Darcy over Mr. Thornton (actually over everyone else!)
Pro-Mr. Thornton: The name John not stupidly pretentious like Fitzwilliam; in touch with own feelings; friend to all classes, not snob; dealt with personal hardships; sweetPro-Mr. Darcy: tall, not stocky, and clearly handsome; not convinced of superiority of trade; lacks irritating mother to torture future wife; no chip on shoulder
It's a draw for me. I love each best in his own story.
I love your comment, Kate! You perfectly described both characters. "Lacks irritating mother" is hilarious :)
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Oh wow, I just re-read Kate's comment and caught the phrase "The name John not stupidly pretentious like Fitzwilliam." *giggles helplessly* That is beyond true. :D
Still, I must say that choosing Thornton over Darcy is a very hard decision for me - I've only ever seen Macfadyen's Darcy but he melts my heart a little every time I see the film. I suppose one day (hopefully soon) I'll figure out exactly what it is that gives Thornton the edge for me. :)
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Right... I have to put in my say about Mr Darcy here. Ok, so I can see the appeal of Thornton over Darcy - the argument I hear a lot is that he is a more complex character (*cough* Becca *cough*).
But, I think the characters are equally complex. Yes Thornton has all his background what with building everything up from nothing and taking a long time to become a master, and with his father and everything when he was very young, and the responsibility he has to run to the mill and care for the rest of his family. But, Darcy too is very complex, but not as obviously so, in my opinion. Well, we know he is complex because of his character and the hidden depths to his true nature so well kept from the read by Austen (we actually see into Thornton’s thoughts every now and then and we even have scenes when Thornton is with his mother, and Margaret isn’t around, unlike with Lizzy), but as well as that, when he was a young boy he has an awful lot of responsibility placed on his shoulders when his father died, his mother already passed, landing him also at a very young age with the running of such a huge estate and the care of his much younger sister. He is 28, and his father died 5 years before, and so therefore that would make him 22/23 when he took over Pemberley – he didn’t get to live the life of a young man (like Wickham led, but Wickham took it too far!) and Georgiana would have been, if she was 16... 10/11! So, I think although there are similar and very different differences between there consequences and what has built their character and created their complex natures, both are very complex.
And I think in addition I like the humorous and teasing side which Darcy has, and which is not as obvious with Thornton.
Right, a few comments to deal with!
@Marren – I knew you would be Thornton!
@Becca – I do know your thoughts yes... ;) you may notice I am trying to control my inner turmoil! Yes I think it can stand for the actors – give me Colin Firth and I will be a happy lady ;)
@Maria – ‘But, Mr. Darcy stole my heart many years ago and I can't help it: I will always choose Mr. Darcy over Mr. Thornton (actually over everyone else!)’ YAYYYYYY I knew I could rely on you Maria! I completely agree – he stole my heart when I was 9 and there is no one to come along and steal it away from him, even if some characters will get dangerously close to doing so, like Thornton. Darcy all the way! *high five*
@Kate – very blunt and to the point summaries there! ‘The name John not stupidly pretentious like Fitzwilliam’ *chin hits the ground!* how can you say so!? (Ok Becca, losing my self control now...) 1. There is nothing wrong with Fitzwilliam – it’s much more interesting than John! 2. ‘stupidly pretentious’ Darcy didn’t pick his own name so it wasn’t his choice! And 3. Think of the time differences – Fitzwilliam was much commoner for the era of Pride and Prejudice compared to the era of North and South!
Ok I will stop now ;) your comment about ‘lacks irritating mother to torture future wife’ is very true and a great bonus, even if Darcy has a rather irritating aunt! And at least it is a draw ;)
@Becca (again!) so we both mention the aunt I see ;) but how could you regarding his name – ‘That is beyond true’ *angry sigh!* see above reasons!!!! (self control gone...)
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Right... I have to put in my say about Mr ..."
Hahaha, I knew you'd come and give me a good telling off. :P And after that incredibly long post, I don't think you can pretend to have much self control. :D
It is true that Thornton doesn't have an obviously teasing side, but then again, Darcy's isn't always all that obvious either. And Thornton does tease on occasion, and it's very sweet when he does. :)
You've heard my opinion on complexity, and how young Thornton would have been when he lost his father to suicide, so I'll just gloss over that...
In terms of actors, you are welcome to Colin Firth. :) I'll just borrow Matthew Macfadyen now and again, as discussed in your last message - which I will get to very soon, I'm writing up a reply now. :)
Oh dear, I sense I am in very deep trouble for agreeing with the "stupidly pretentious" thing... I'm in a bit of a personal quandary regarding names, to be honest. I've never liked the name Fitzwilliam, unfortunately, but "John" is also my brothers name. Still a lot better than Fitzwilliam, though, and when paired with "Thornton" it really is a very nice name. In any case, I know that Darcy didn't pick his name - I'm not holding it against him! Just agreeing that his name is... rather long.
P.S. Are you sure you have any self control? :P
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Thornton and Margaret don't have as many great sparring matches as Darcy and Lizzy - theirs are more arugments compared to D/L's (although i know they too argue, but not as openly or often!)
I do know your opinion, but i had to put my opinion down for the others to see ;)
Fine by me, so long as i can have Armitage from time to time as well ;)
'Just agreeing that his name is... rather long.'
*tut* fine then! and i am just saying that is name is... very stylish and classy!
Self control? no. no i do no. not after that.
Just imagine having to say it: oh, Fitzwilliam, pass the butter...my dearest Fitzwilliam, do we have to name our son Fitzfitzwilliam? I don't think there's any defense for naming your kid Fitzwilliam. It is a good thing both his parents are gone, they would clearly have been irksome to Lizzy, and after all they left him to follow his good morals with pride and conceit (and NAMED HIM FITZWILLIAM!). Perhaps I like Mrs. Thornton more come to think of it. John and Frances are innocuous. Then again I named my baby Beatrix so perhaps pot calling the kettle black. Next baby Fitzkate.
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That is true - the verbal dancing isn't quite so prominent in North & South, and certainly (for the most part) the things that Margaret and Thornton say to each other are more forceful or hurtful.
Well then, just to outline mine for everyone else; in previous discussions with Soph, I noted the Mr. Thornton would have been only fifteen or sixteen when his father died committing suicide, and then it fell to Thornton to help his family up from poverty. So personally I believe his hardships were, well... rather more strenuous, and perhaps slightly more character-building than Darcy's were.
Haha, okay. ;) Shall we say, swap three times? And then we'll just stick with who we have? Doesn't mean we can't all meet for lunch now and again, which would be very fun, I might add.
*tut* To you too! If you want to call it classy, then that's up to you, I won't stop you. :)
:D I KNEW IT!
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*rolling on the ground laughing*
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I really must go now and so will respond tomorrow in fill to both you Kate and Becca... But I will say now...
IT WOULD GET SHORTENED TO WILLIAM! *deep breath* and Fitzfitzwilliam!? That wouldn't happen!!!
More tomorrow...
Is it funny that Lizzy finds she loves Darcy sometime after visiting his vast estate, and Thornton speaks again after she offers him part of her vast fortune? Or is there no meaning to that?
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Oh you have hit a nerve there Kate! You have got it coming tomorrow Kate - I warn you now! Anyone who knows me even slightly on here will know how strongly I feel on that particular issue!! Tomorrow - you wait!
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I really must go now and so will respond tomorrow in fill to both you Kate and Becca... But I will say now...
IT WOULD GET SHORTENED TO WILLIAM! ..."
It's okay, Soph, it's okay... Calm down. I suppose being shortened to William would be reasonable... but why couldn't they just have called him that in the first place? :P
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Oh, I certainly hope there is no meaning in that... I think that Lizzy only started to realize at Pemberley that Darcy wasn't the man she thought he was - and she was mostly joking when she said she fell in love with him because of Pemberley. I know there were other reasons. :)
As for Thornton - we know he'd already been to Helstone, so he still loved Margaret deeply. I think the reason that he spoke after Margaret mentioned her fortune was because her nervousness in offering to give it to him to help him run the mill showed him that she too cared for him. (I am only going off the series here, but you get the gist...)
Am reminded of the Vicar of Dibley wedding where Dawn French's real (silly) name is revealed and Richard Armitage's name is Harry Jasper. Probably Colin Firth's name would have been Harry Fitzwilliam.
Sounds like for some group members, Darcy Fitz the Bill. Bwahahahaha!!!!
I really do like them both though. Just not Mr Darcy's name.
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Although redeeming yourself with that last comment - and I have much to say and elaborate on that subject (- but tomorrow!)
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Probably Colin Firth's name would have been Harry Fitzwi..."
"Darcy Fitz the Bill." :D You are literally killing me with laughter right now!
More seriously though, I do like them both, like you just not Mr Darcy's first name.
Liam Mr. Darcy Alone!!!!I crack myself up. Thanks to this board and my irreverence for Mr D I have woken the baby. Good work, Goodreads.
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Although redeeming yourself with that last comment - and I have much to say and elaborate..."
Ahaha, you know I'm just teasing you. <3 You can continue your verbal battery against me tomorrow, if you wish. :D
*phew* At least I've redeemed myself somewhat. In any case, I very much look forward to resuming our debates tomorrow. :)
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I crack myself up. Thanks to this board and my irreverence for Mr D I have woken the baby. Good work, Goodreads."
I am in awe of your ability to be hilarious. And irreverent. Please give my apologies to the baby. :)
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I can take no more tonight! I shall have to respond in the morning!!
*Sjehaidbsksbdjswjd*
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(In case you didn't see it was: "For some reason I am enjoying being annoying, I seem to have a talent for it when it comes to your Fitz of rage...)
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I am now going to have a dream about him but I can see you two both appearing to ruin it and call out slandering comments about his name!!!
Yes no sleep with this much rage I fear....
(Ok seriously I need to go!!! What's wrong with me!?)
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I'm sure Kate and I will do our best not to disturb your lovely dreams of Mr Fitzwilliam Darcy. I for one will settle for annoying you about Darcy when you re-appear tomorrow. (I may re-appear a little later than I'd like, as I have to paint a bit more of the house, but I WILL be on). :)
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:D I don't deny it. And I'm sure John Thornton and I will be very happy, now that we've made our little swap and seeing as I don't find his name *cough* ridiculous *cough*.
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*switches off computer.*
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Fitz of rage! HahahahahAhaha!While Soph is gone can I confess I find the book Darcy more attractive than the book Thornton? Austen clearly made a hottie and Gaskell had her mind on higher things. Stocky as a symbol of trade, I guess. (Ooh, a pun!)
Thornton's is the name of a gas station chain here in the Chicago suburbs. Darcy's isn't.
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*ahem* mwhahahahahah! ^_^ *chanting* you prefer the book Darcy, you prefer the book Darcy!
And the fact the Darcy is NOT the name of a petrol station is DEFINITELY a point In his names favour and down one in Thornton's! Ha!
Darcy actually a girl's name around here tho
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Right. Computer already off. *switches iPad off as well* *gone - for now... *
Mr Darcy would tell you to go to bed and would tell you you had only yourself to blame when you were sleepy.Mr Thornton would be at work already by the time you got up.
Clearly still a draw.
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I don't know, it's not Darcy's fault he was born into his role, but I can't help admiring John for all he's accomplished and for how much he will accomplish for posterity with his new vision of his role with the workers.
What is it that the Darcys will do to advance humanity in their realm? What will they do all day?
I guess I can relate more to the working man. I really would hate a life of leisure - if I felt I wasn't making a difference in some way.
And Mrs. Thornton will love anyone who truly adores and respects her son. ;)
Oh, and I've always loved the name 'John.' Named my son John before I ever found Thornton. :)
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Mr Thornton would be at work already by the time you got up.
Clearly still a draw."
I'm sure Soph would have some witty reply ready for Darcy when he told her she only had herself to blame.
Clearly still a draw for you. :) I'm still in favour of Thornton (though in deference to Soph I have to re-stipulate it's a relatively close-run thing). But it would kind of suck to have him gone to work already by the time you got up. Meh, I'd just go and see him at work when I could. :)
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No. There is no meaning to that. Beginning with Darcy and Lizzy. Pemberley plays an important and necessary part in the development of Darcy and Elizabeth’s relationship. (for full details, http://laughingwithlizzie.blogspot.co...)
Austen’s physical description of Pemberley makes the place sound absolutely wonderful, and gives vital insight into the REAL character of Mr. Darcy. The novel is written mainly from Elizabeth’s viewpoint, and since Elizabeth has been prejudiced against Darcy prior to her visit to Pemberley, you are also inclined to dislike him and might expect his home to be grand and showy, as a reflection of his character. Darcy’s home does indeed reflect his character, but both prove different to expectations. To Elizabeth’s surprise, the house is not ostentatious, formal or showy, in fact “she had never seen a place for which nature had done more”. The words like “handsome”, “beautiful” and “good” to describe the stunning grounds and tasteful, comfortable decor at Pemberley reflect Darcy.
The apparent change in Darcy’s behaviour comes as a great shock to Lizzy after her rejection. If I was her, I would not expect any civility at all from a man I insulted as she did! It is important to Darcy and Lizzy’s relationship that Elizabeth visits Pemberley. I agree that being at Pemberley makes the proposal seem more realistic and shows what she has turned down and refused. However, when later talking to Jane about her change of heart, Elizabeth does say “I believe I must date it from my first seeing his beautiful grounds at Pemberley.” But this is clearly in jest! A pessimistic reader of the novel might think that the only reason why Elizabeth changes her opinion and agrees to marry Darcy is because of the magnificence of his house and his wealth! (I know that financial security was a major reason for marriage in the 19th century) However I think it is clear she is joking with her sister – she says as much herself – and we know Elizabeth wants to marry for love!
The importance of the meeting at Pemberley, as a turning point in the relationship of Darcy and Elizabeth, is supported by the final line of the novel: “by bringing her into Derbyshire, had been the means of uniting them.” Not because Lizzy realised he truly was rich, but because she discovered his true character! (other reasons not mentioned is the high opinion of his from his house keeper and tenants - I could keep going but I will stop.)
And regarding North and South, I agree with Becca. Allowing Margaret to speak her thoughts and her proposal regarding the mill to him would give him hope and show him that she does care for him, even though she doesn’t wish him to feel obliged to him. His decision had no bearing on the matter of the mill – as Becca pointed out – he had already been to Helstone when I believed all hope was gone (he goes even earlier in the book). He would have proposed to her anyway – his affection for her is so strong.
@Kate – Oh my! The vicar of dibley – that was Richard Armitage! :O I never really watch it thoroughly but I have seen bits and have seen the wedding – IT WAS HIM! I never realised/clicked – probably because I wasn’t aware of him when I saw it!
@Kate – ‘Darcy Fitz the Bill’ Yes he does fit the bill very well for me!!!
@Becca – there is nothing wrong with the name Fitzwilliam!!!! IT IS NOT RIDICULOUS!
@Kate – ‘Fitzsweet fitzdreams fitzSoph’ you are really enjoying yourself aren’t you! And you influence is rubbing off on Becca – ‘your Fitz of rage...’
@Kate – If Darcy told me to go to bed and blamed me for my sleepiness he would do it in a teasing way, not in a serious. And he would be there when I woke up. Unlike Thornton, who would not be there when I woke, which would be horrible! So, I think Darcy being there puts one up for him!
@Trudy – Thank you Trudy for pointing out that it is not Darcy’s fault that he was born into the life he was – and he does work hard, just not as physically as Thornton has worked in his life. Although what Darcy does will not help society in such a way as Thornton, Darcy at least works hard in what he does do and he does all he can do - he treats his servants well and looks after his tenants very well and takes particular interest – this is different from many estate owners in Darcy’s position of this time.
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So, with that comparison in mind, he's just risen a few notches in my mind. :)
It would be better to compare Darcy with a more similar hero - one in the peerage.
Thornton is leagues apart from the benefits of inherited wealth and position and from an entirely different era. It's so difficult to compare....
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It is true that they are hard to compare though! Different classes and different eras!
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@Soph: Glad you agreed with me about the lack of significance in the hero/heroine seeing the extensive property of their match, and then falling more in love. Though I shall not apologize for calling Darcy's first name "ridiculous", even if I was being a teensy tiny bit harsh. :P
Also, that is a rather good point about Darcy working hard at what he does and having an interest in his tenants, while Thornton (at least at the beginning) is rather more distant. However, I think the difference in situation and the way that those in the North "value their independence" can account for Thornton's attitude towards his workers. And I do not say that Darcy is not hard-working, just that Thornton's work is perhaps a little more strenuous. :)
Oh- thank you for the lovely defense of two of my favorite characters. I promise I was not intending to malign them. I think I meant that Elizabeth finds it funny that her change in opinion towards F.D. coincides with visiting his vast estate - she can see that from the outside, someone might think she changed her tune when she saw how very rich Darcy was. And indeed that IS funny because Elizabeth and the reader both know that that is not the case even though society at large would not fault her for being so venal, might even commend her for it.So I'm wondering if there is a parallel funny here: all those industrialists whom Margaret has needled would certainly be mystified by Thornton marrying her - but then, she IS wealthy now and who could fault marrying even the most unpleasant opinionated girl if she has so much money? Would T find it as amusing that gossip might assume he changed his opinion of Margaret when her fortunes rose? Is Thornton in the Elizabeth position here, indebted to a partner whose wealth comes through aristocratic land ownership (via Mr. Bell)?
Funny haha not funny suspicious. But v nice defense, Soph. I will draw upon it next time someone pulls out the greedylizzy canard.
Here's another thought re D vs T: the industrial revolution between the two books changed working class life dramatically and quickly, but social mores of the wealthy and middle class change much more slowly, and you can see that in N&S. The goal of money for many of the characters is still to remove them from trade, or at least to live as closely to the aristocratic moneyed classes model as possible. Thornton starts his life the wealthy son of an investor. perhaps that is close to trade but certainly John's parents expected John to be a wealthy gentleman with no need to get his hands dirty. Then, after his father's death, he works himself back up to a less exalted position though still wealthy - but education, still tied to leisure, is a goal for him, and his mother and sister are women of leisure, and he spends a great deal of money on show. Margaret, at the start of the story, assumes that there is something better about wealth-through-landowning, that the very act of trade is corrupting. Children of clergy occupy a half -gentry half-not space, and they mimic the social behavior of the wealthy, in whose interest it is, one must admit, for things to stay the same.We are now so thoroughly Capitalist and Democratic, for the most part, that we respect Thornton's work much more that Darcy's. We cannot imagine what Darcy does all day or just how responsible he might be for the welfare of his tenants - and his care of them merits praise, a sure sign that others in his position do not do their job as well as he does. Thornton reduces that kind of relationship to cash, which is easier for us to understand, and which indeed has some merit in making society less paternalistic. But obviously Margaret thinks Thornton should act in a more paternalistic, Darcylike way, because while the work climate has changed the social climate has not. Thornton, on the other hand, having seen that social climate fail him entirely, believes that caring for workers is a mask, and that paying them well enough, making improvements that benefit the business so they can be paid more, is more fair and realistic and ultimately beneficial. We're still debating this one because so much of it comes down to trusting those in charge to do the right thing by those not in charge.
Yet another reason I like each in his own book best.
Kate wrote: "Pro-Mr. Thornton: The name John not stupidly pretentious like Fitzwilliam; in touch with own feelings; friend to all classes, not snob; dealt with personal hardships; sweetPro-Mr. Darcy: tall, n..."
Hehe, liking this description but Mr. Darcy had an equally annoying auntie!
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The 'greedylizzy canard' is brought out way to often!
Good point as well. It is true that Thornton's line and way of living is much easier for us to understand more fully in today's world, compared to Darcy's. People who held a similar position to Darcy just aren't around anymore, so it is hard to fully understand his position, as it is so foreign to us.
So again is the issue of the era each story is set in.
No two guesses for me I am sure as you all know me so well, but I do love them both and I will be back very soon to post my (detailed) thoughts and opinions on this subject ;)