Bailey's/Orange Women's Fiction Group discussion

here's March's book!

I read this several years ago. I was intending to start reading it again today, but can't find my old copy.
One of the local libraries should have it, so I will join you later.

I too have already read this but like State of Wonder I am listening to the audio version this time.

What a lot I have forgotten!!!

SPOILER POSSIBLE
I am so astounded at the repeated and varied racism from the English and the American characters. The scenes leading up to the skirmish in the town were awful - but also amazing to me as we have never had any segregation/apartheid enforced in cinemas or public places in England. As Gilbert keeps trying to tell them - he is not an American GI - although its equally awful for the US white soldiers to treat their black counterparts this way too.
Also I didnt remember how much Hortense speaks in such a racist way herself - she repeatedly mentions how 'dark' various people are and whether that then changes how she would associate with them.
Anybody understand why she marries Gilbert in the first place?

I read this one back in May 2011 (according to goodreads) and really enjoyed it. It was definitely a powerful book that brought out many emotions in me.

Penny wrote: "I am so astounded at the repeated and varied racism from the English and the American characters."

The racism is shocking, but I think it is shown accurately. Britain did not have segregation or apartheid, racism was not official but that did not mean it didn't exist. There are still far too many racists in this country and they keep saying the same thing with minor variations:
Irish coming over here taking our jobs,
'Darkies' coming over here taking our jobs,
'Pakis' coming over here taking our jobs,
Poles coming over here taking our jobs,
Romanians coming over here taking our jobs...

PS I had forgotten quite a lot of the book as well, although not the depiction of racism. I don't really understand the relationship between Hortense and Gilbert, it seems unlikely and contrived. It is still a good book though.

Val wrote: "Penny wrote: "I am so astounded at the repeated and varied racism from the English and the American characters."

The racism is shocking, but I think it is shown accurately. Britain did not have se..."

Both Hortense and Queenie seem to just get married all of a sudden without any sense of loving being involved. I wonder if they didnt feel that was necessary. They both seem to actually despise Bernard and Gilbert at times and yet they both chose to marry them. In the meantime the men seem surprised at who they have ended up with!!!

I have read quite a few books with the bombing of London as part of the story or in the background, but this book really caught the emotional devastation to civilians. People left with nothing, absolutely nothing including their families, others with shell shock, broken bodies or disabling traumatic stress really brought home the fact that it isn't just soldiers who suffer.

Diane wrote: "I have read quite a few books with the bombing of London as part of the story or in the background, but this book really caught the emotional devastation to civilians. People left with nothing, abs..."

yes - there must have been a collective case of post traumatic stress disorder. Also so many people must have been grieving at the same time - we all think of the end of the war as such a great celebration and yet for thousands it must have been nothing of the kind.

Oh dear! Poor Bernard - he cant get anything right can he?

I forgot the sadness of the ending - do you think Queenie did the right thing? What did you think of Hortense by the end? My opinion of her changes several times over the book - she is so proud, so sure of her superior intellligence and education and so unreachable. Meanwhile Queenie seems to become harder as she goes on - her love of life and openness is worn down over the course of the book. I think she is shattered by the war - without knowing that she is. Just trying to keep body and soul together, Arthur and his sadness and the lack of love between her and Bernard.
I enjoyed it even more second time around - the characters were brilliantly done, all complex and flawed while still creating empathy in their different ways.

I sure wasn't expecting Bernard to want to keep the baby or even keep Queenie for that matter after finding out that the baby was black. He totally surprised me.
I don't know if Queenie did the right thing but her reasoning was sound. Why can't we just have hindsight before hand?
I liked Hortense right from the beginning. She is prissy and proud but strong and will make a good wife and mother.

Penny wrote: "I forgot the sadness of the ending - do you think Queenie did the right thing? What did you think of Hortense by the end? My opinion of her changes several times over the book - she is so proud, ..."

I thought the characters were great and their different voices were too, but the two marriages seem such bad matches that I found it difficult to accept them.
Queenie does become harder and I suppose that is the only way she can cope. The unpleasant racist neighbour (who hates Czechs, Poles, Jews, bombed out cockneys and coloured people) is moving away and there are other West Indians in the area, so the little boy might have been able to grow up with English parents, but he might have had problems. Queenie fears that he might and thinks she is acting in his best interests. It must have been a tough decision.
I really didn't like Hortense to start with, she destroys too many other people's dreams following her own and gives poor Gilbert such a hard time. She does unbend a little later on, once Gilbert makes her smile and he is finally allowed to stop sleeping in a chair every night. The marriage might survive now they have a child to look after.

Like Diane I was surprised by Bernard wanting to keep Queenie's baby, but he still had a problem with accepting Gilbert, so he could have had problems with the boy when he grew up. I'm not so sure that marriage would survive; Bernard loves Queenie although he can't express it, but she does not love him and they have been apart for several years.

Val wrote:I really didn't like Hortense to start with, she destroys too many other people's dreams following her own and gives poor Gilbert such a hard time..."
She sure does give poor Gilbert a hard time, doesn't she? In her defense, I can't imagine sailing to England with such dreams and finding myself in such a horrid, tiny flat and with the language difficulties, the racism, the war, the cold.
I think they will do fine in the long run though with the baby, a home to fix up and the opened opportunities for Gilbert.

The book does end on an optimistic note for Gilbert and Hortense. Andrea Levy makes these people live and I wanted things to turn out well for them.
Gilbert was the only main character who had my sympathy throughout the book (another was Arthur, but he is not a major character).
Queenie did a lot of the time, she keeps getting trapped in difficult circumstances and she copes with them as well as she can. I could be more cynical about her decision to give away her baby: she did not want to be pregnant and she did not want to be trapped again, the only people who knew about it were not going to say anything and here were a convenient couple with the right skin colour to take the baby off her hands. She is selfish sometimes. I prefer to be charitable and think that she did it for the good of the child.

yes I gave Queenie the benefit of the doubt as I felt she really loved the little boy. I wanted Hortense to know the identity of the child's father as it would then seem so much easier for her to raise the child.

Anyone read The Long Song by Andrea Levy? It may come up as an archive read - I enjoyed that one too - hope she's working on her next novel!