THE Group for Authors! discussion

So I received a less-than-favorable review on my latest book. This isn't going to be a rant about negative reviews or anything like that. Instead, points made in the review highlighted to me the fact that when I write, I like to take risks.

I took a big risk in the book because the characters are young--fourteen. The book is being marketed as YA fantasy, because that seems to be the group most interested in it. And there are some very adult themes in the book. Mainly, the fourteen-year-old female protagonist is raped--sexually abused--on more than one occasion by the villain.

While the scenes stay mostly in the dark, there's no escaping that this is a very uncomfortable plot twist. One that can instantly turn off a reader. I had one blog tour host who was going to review the book state that she couldn't review it because she couldn't read past that scene. For her it was due to a personal event, but for others it's just plain "creepy."

So here's a question to writers. Do you take risks in your writing? Do you steer clear of things that might offend or horrify your readers? Or do you charge right in, to tell the story that is burning in your brain, even though parts of it are going to offensive, or ghastly, or push the envelope of what is acceptable?

I personally choose to push the boundaries, and take the risks. Yeah, I may get stung by a bad review. But I hold to the advice that Stephen King gives writers. "Write the truth." That's the truth that's in your heart.

It ain't always pretty.

I haven't yet published any of my 'risky' stories. Although for me the biggest 'risk' is physical violence of adults against each other - more like war-type actions. Although one series I'm working on has teens in a historical fantasy, with a pretty nightmarish scene at the end. At least my brother told me it was nightmarish. I didn't see anything wrong with it when I was writing it.

But I haven't published them because I haven't finished them, not out of fear. I like to think that I would write the story in my head that needs to be told.

I think, when I get to the point of publishing, I will just lay out pretty clearly what a reader can expect, to hopefully warn off the squeamish.

Good topic!

Judy wrote: "So I received a less-than-favorable review on my latest book. This isn't going to be a rant about negative reviews or anything like that. Instead, points made in the review highlighted to me the fa..."

Kristi, taking risk makes you a good writer because if we don't take risk our books are dull and boring. Keep writing the way you feel you should and you will be okay. There are a lot of people who will say things that make us as writers feel bad, but hey, keep believing in yourself.
Pattimari Sheets Cacciolfi

Dianne wrote: "I take risks and have gotten some bad reviews, which I'm sure is a result of that. Pedophilic priest - yeah! A few people couldn't get past that. But to me, what's the point of writing if I can't t..."

Your books seem to be doing very well, so congrats on that! I've entered the book into this year's ABNA contest, so we'll see how that goes.

But I totally agree. Sure, I could stick to sunshine and rainbows. But what's the fun in that? I like my bad guys to be REALLY bad. And they are.

Truth? I write what I want, how I want, and ask my editor to make sure all the commas are in the right place, there are no plot holes, and the characters are solid. End of story.

Your true fans will find you. When they do they will thank you for writing this book for them. They will see you as their voice, their advocate. You might even help them heal.

Well as an editor at a small press I can tell you that the folks that are freaking out over sexual situations with minors and sexual situations that are not permissive are affecting the way publishing deals with submissions and work from their authors.

At JEA, for instance, we have a policy of automatic rejection for any book that has detailed sexual situations with a minor. We also don't publish erotica that isn't consensual or could be construed as such.

Why?

Not so long ago places like Amazon started taking down anything that got too many complaints and which were attracting too many people who were clearly picking books or stories that featured child rape up for purposes of sexual gratification. That meant anyone that had that sort of content or who received several complaints got kicked as a result. It also meant certain associations were made with those authors and any indie press that offered that material, worse that had some less than desirable fans.

Seeing Amazon take that action made small presses nervous and readers who had been horrified by the revelation of erotica, monster erotica and worse on Amazon very complaint happy.

The reality is that even when we write perfectly reasonable scenarios that happen to feature those scenes people are very inclined to complain or feel offended. That's even more true with any of us indies (small press and self-pub)who they feel more inclined to judge because of writers with less than professional behavior and writing which has led to problems on both Amazon and Goodreads.

Is it fair for them to react this way when we write solid and sensible scenes like this? No. Is it going to happen and be something we'll have to contend with? Yes and the way we contend with it will be one of the most significant ways we show them they're wrong about indies.

I remember the big kerfluffle, both on Amazon and Kobo with that. Anyone who has read the scene in my book knows that things are glossed over (mostly action behind the curtain) and that it is DEFINITELY not written to titillate. Quite the opposite, which is why readers have been horrified. But then I roll my eyes at the way that books with incest (um Flowers in the Attic, Mortal Instruments: City of Ashes, etc.) are perfectly fine.

Like other things, censorship comes and goes.

My rule of thumb: if it makes me blush then I either change my approach, change my language, or change the plot. Seriously, when the author isn't sure about graphic scenes, then the risk of being misunderstood by readers is too high for comfort.

I don't intentionally set out to write stories that push limits, but if something controversial is true to the story, I won't avoid it, either. I think there's a balance that is probably different for every author.

There will always be vociferous moral guardians waiting to air their righteous indignation.
Carry on writing about the realities of life regardless.
Life is not exclusively a feel-good, do-good experience.

I don't take a lot of risks, but one of my books (Cornerstone: Raising Rook) is a deliberate exploration of a character who's going to the 'dark side' and is weak and not very likable. I wrote it specifically to explore how evil people get to be that way and whether or not they think they're doing the right thing. And sure enough, some (most) readers don't like the main character. A lot of people seem to not like, or be confused by, the fact that nothing's black and white in the book. But that's the way things are in real life. I don't know that I identified it as 'risky' when I wrote it, but looking back on it, I guess I run the risk of people feeling dissatisfied with no clear-cut winners and losers.

I think everything I write is taking some risk or another. If I wanted to write cookie-cutter Vampire Erotica Zombie Apocalypse Nicholas Sparks books, then I'd have gone traditional publishing.

My stories are dark and grim for the most part. They don't detail graphic violence or sex and definitely not sexual assault, but they do delve into some pretty dark areas (racism, homophobia, religious domination, etc.).

I always state that I write adult stories for adult readers. I've no time to waste on moral guardians or other types that believe what I write should be illegal.

Trust me when I say if you really want to offend people, make a beloved character like Santa Claus into an axe murderer who leaves the severed heads of the parents of bad children under the tree as a lesson, and have zero violence or colorful language, label it Horror, then wait for the angry emails from readers who decided to read the story to their children without bothering to read the story themselves first.

I don't intentionally write things to enrage people. I'm growing a pretty good fanbase because I do write off-the-wall or dark, gritty stories, so I must be doing something semi-decent. Maybe.

Take risks, you will annoy some readers but that is bound to happen anyway. Someone will always find something in a book not to like.

If the scenes are warranted in the book and not written for titillation then I think you are justified in the story. You may want to put a warning though in the description.

I take risks in mine. Book I has the main female lead as an escaped slave who has been kept as a concubine. It has murder, including the death of children, it has implied abuse. But it is a dark fantasy work and mostly the scenes are portrayed as 'bad behaviour' from the bad guy, as it were. Or revenge in the case of some violence.

There are also scenes of sex, consensual between adults which are graphic. It dares to be more than fantasy and the characters are passionate characters with needs and desires.

Write the book which needs to be written and the book YOU want to write. If you force it to be something it isn't then it will show.

The entire plot of one of my novels stems from the result on the main character's psyche from extreme childhood sexual abuse. I decided not to sugar-coat anything. Yes, it's not for everyone, and I only recommend it for mature readers. Some people love it--others hate it. As with anything controversial, someone out there is going to disagree, otherwise it wouldn't be controversial, and you certainly can't please everyone. If that's the story you need to tell, then by all means, tell it!

I don't skip past books that have risks, but I do appreciate the friendly disclosure in the summary that lets me know what to expect. Does your book have something like this? Maybe it will keep away the complainers and let people who will really appreciate your writing read it. That being said, your book being YA, it is a sensitive subject depending on what type of light it is portrayed in. Some people can be picky when it comes to what their kids are reading. If your book is being marketed to 14 year old, I as a parent would not let my son read rape scenes or anything sexually explicit, but then again that is just my opinion. Multiple rape scenes by a villain to me feels like an older reading audience maybe 16 and up.

Yes, I do have a warning statement. And the reviews are all pretty clear that this is recommended more for older teens. (16+) The scenes are not graphic--most of the detail is skipped.

The main character in my first series is a combat vet with PTSD. I got an email from a reader who said he'd stopped reading the book because the character sounded like all the other vets he knew!
One additional feature of this one's personality is disgust with civilian leadership and things like the VA; FWIW, that was written before the current VA scandals became public. (I should mention there's another principal character who isn't so bitter.)

I've taken a risk with my entire concept. My detective is a devout creationist Christian but it is written as purely a genre novel. http://tinyurl.com/m29xo8h

No clue if my market is pure crime novel fans, christian literature fans, or the very narrow intersection on the veng diagram of both.

It could just crash and burn without trace, but hey, it's the novel I wanted to write.

Tony, that sounds like a fascinating character, actually. The question on who your readership would be would be if the book itself was preachy, or just the character. I tend to steer clear of most Christian fiction because of the preachy factor.

I wrote it as a straight crime novel that happens to feature a devout Christian detective. He has his politics same as any protagonist, but hopefully that's just character. I concentrate mainly on the theme of justice more than religion. It only struck me with the christian angle because someone else zeroed in on it during beta.

Personally, I don't see a point in writing if you're afraid to take risks. Writing itself is a risk. You're not guaranteed to please anyone, so just write what you feel needs to be written. If your story requires rape, then write the best (or worst) damn rape that you can. If you need to mutilate some genitals, then f'ing destroy them.

In the book that I just published, the main character is a zombie who spends most of his down-time reflecting on the world. His thoughts have no filter, obviously, so I made sure that the narrative reflected that. A few of the subjects he touches on include drugs, necrophilia, murder and cannibalism, and just about every swear word you can think of.

I'll tell you what...it was the most fun I've ever had writing a story (I feel like I should mention that it's a comedy, so I don't seem too sadistic).

If you want to make everyone happy and play it safe, go for it. But I think it's much more satisfying to be your uncensored self, even if it pisses people off in the process. It makes the good reviews that you get even sweeter.

C.L. wrote: "In the book that I just published, the main character is a zombie who spends most of his down-time reflecting on the world. His thoughts have no filter, obviously, so I made sure that the narrative reflected that. A few of the subjects he touches on include drugs, necrophilia, murder and cannibalism, and just about every swear word you can think of. "

Cool! *grin*

It seems as though there's a whole new genre of YA rape / very explicit sex novels. There have even been articles about it in writers' magazines around the theme of how much sex is too much in a YA novel. I have mixed feelings on this because while I know that children are aware of sex from their earliest days (certainly boys are), I hate seeing children being sexualised by our culture too early. There's a vast dark societal wave that subtly (and not so subtly) compels children to become sexual creatures, while at the same time condemning them (or adults involved) for doing so.

I'm also very much a literature purist and want writers to write the stories they profoundly want to write. So I certainly take risks, but a different type of risk. The main character of my recent novel (Straight Jacket) is a real bastard who does all sorts of creepy evil things - and yet readers love him (mostly). That was the risk - to have prevailingly bourgeois, well-adjusted normal readers accept him and like him despite his arrogance, his drug taking, his sneaky manipulation of others and his total contempt for all human beings.

Worst of all...he's a lawyer.

My books are filled with dark doings...murder, rape, incest, etc. I've killed off children, cats and dogs, (oh yes, caught some flak for killing off animals!) Some say my books are too dark and some say they are too religious (?)---I do tend to allow some religious beliefs into my novels for certain characters, after all, religion is a strong motivation in people's lives. If the story calls for a certain action put it into the story, no matter how offensive that action may be to some people. If handled well, it can make all the difference between compelling fiction, or shock-fiction. Or fluff, for that matter.

Spawn of Evil
Sometimes you need to take a risk. In my latest novel I knew that the creating of six psychopathic young Nazis, who I have graphically rape and murder Jews, after WWII ended, was possibly going into a minefield. However, I wanted to tell the story and once again point out the autocracies of the Holocaust and its future repercussions.

i tone down my writing as i want to have as big as possible..

My Novel Blood Shock ( www.donledger.com ) is graphic. I find myself adding an oral warning to those whom I am speaking to personally who have expressed interest in reading my novel. By the same token when I was writing the novel, upon re-reading passages, I edited out some of the parts that were too graphic. Still it is graphic. To be honest there are some readers out there for whom you can't be graphic enough.
An editor at Dell whom I had published with previously said he had to air his head out after reading one particular chapter. He said it would not be a good fit for their readers. This is the tripe you are up against as a writer; an intern at the barely opened end of the publishing business who seem to have the trust of the more senior editors. Tell that to the publishers (I think it was 18) who turned down Margaret Mitchell's Gone With The Wind.
I write the way I see the world. As for it being a mystery novel-the readers want the real-world grit of today, not the Agatha Christi of the 1930s-though there is a large market for her re-issued books. But not by the youthful readers of today. Television and the movies indicate that this is so.

There is a tendency for violence whereas sexual content seems to less prevalent. This is very obvious in TV and movies perhaps less so in books. Mainstream TV in particular is happy to show endless murders - even in shows like Midsummer Murders, but nudity - much rarer.

Why is love making frowned upon and killing OK?

In my own work I have both some, reasonably graphic with a warning in the book descriptions, but I don't have much profanity compared to many books.

I've had a similar issue with my first book, The Governess. I can only assume people went to it thinking that here'd be your paint by numbers 'governess has love affair with her aristocratic employer' romp. In fact my governess is a highly unbalanced narcissistic lesbian - and her affair is with Amy, the girl she is teaching. Never mind that Amy's sixteen when they first sleep together, legal both then and now in the UK. Although I keep descriptions of love scenes to the barest minimum, a reader said she had to stop reading as it "made her feel dirty" and was too much like child porn!

My second book deals with IMO far seamier scenarioes - school bullying that goes too far, a celebrity who is in fact a psychopathic serial killer - yet so far there's been next to no moral outrage. Odd, that.

Rachel, if you're selling in the U.S. just be aware that the age of consent there is 18, so 16 *would* be considered child porn. It's difficult to write according to different cultural standards, I know.

Judy wrote: "Rachel, if you're selling in the U.S. just be aware that the age of consent there is 18, so 16 *would* be considered child porn. It's difficult to write according to different cultural standards, I..."

Actually the USA varies by state from 16-18, other countries have different ages and then there are variations and interpretation e.g over 21 with under 18.
This is of course the law for reality as opposed to the description in fiction.

So Lolita would be censored but so should most description of middle age princesses as they are married off very young. My point though is not specifically about young people but about adult descriptions receiving more outraged coverage than violence. Serial Killers killing children is a frequent subject in thrillers as are murders in general. We just seem to have a double standard over sex descriptions.

Actually, the age of consent varies by state in the US.

That said, I was shocked/surprised by the sex in Mortal Instruments.

--

I write hard science fiction with fantastical/horror elements. When I deal with real things (war in space has known consequences) I make it real and don't hold back.

Yes, I take risks, but there are limits. I'm only graphic when I feel the story needs me to be. I don't have much sex or sexual situations in there, but the story doesn't call for it. Where it exists, I'm not graphic. Shrug.

I try to write what the story needs. If that means risks, so be it.

Philip wrote: "Judy wrote: "Rachel, if you're selling in the U.S. just be aware that the age of consent there is 18, so 16 *would* be considered child porn. It's difficult to write according to different cultural..."

Oi. Wouldn't it be nice if we could all just agree on an age and be done with it? And we wonder why things get so hazy in publishing!

Lol meanwhile I seriously think they need to raise the driving age, at least in Arizona, from 16 to 18.

Yes it's OK for a 16 year-old to drive a one tonne or more vehicle at sixty miles per hour, they can serve in combat at 18 or buy a gun but make sure they don't get a beer until they are 21!

I used to live in Az and the USA has some odd laws but so does the UK and many other countries. Then there is the matter of law enforcement which is another whole kettle of fish.

The good news from a writing point of view is that the differences open opportunities for conflict and story telling. I'm sure there are some stories out there about falling foul of local laws or exploiting them.

Sex laws in Thailand or other parts of Asia for example. Drug use in Amsterdam

Judy wrote: "Rachel, if you're selling in the U.S. just be aware that the age of consent there is 18, so 16 *would* be considered child porn. It's difficult to write according to different cultural standards, I..."

GRRM's Game of Thrones features young girls getting married off and raped. Nobody sued him yet...

Philip wrote: "Sex laws in Thailand or other parts of Asia for example. Drug use in Amsterdam..."

Hey, we can't help if some countries don't make distinctions between hard and soft drugs, or fail to treat drug addiction as an illness.

These are all really good, interesting points. To a British reader, the idea of somebody owning a gun - particularly someone with a long history of mental health issues - would be far more shocking than a sixteen year old having sex.

It's interesting to reflect that the blue print for all these employer/servant romances, Mr Rochester and Jane, would have been utterly outrageous at the time of writing. Now we're more likely to raise an eyebrow at their age gap (she's 19, he's 40), his illegitimate kid and how he apparently has a penchant for women's clothes.

As for Danerys in GoT, I think she was 14 in the original book but aged 17 in the TV show. But I suppose that falls under the "this is a fantasy world, anything goes" heading.

Rachael wrote: "These are all really good, interesting points. To a British reader, the idea of somebody owning a gun - particularly someone with a long history of mental health issues - would be far more shocking..."

Aha! I feel vindicated now.

I agree. In medieval times, fourteen was not considered that young.

While writing my novel, Ballroom, I struggled with the complex relationship between two of my characters. I insinuated their relationship, then attempted to clarify what was only suggested. As a writer, I felt I needed to at least try.

It troubled me as it would the reader, but was willing to take that risk. I pushed myself to write the difficult scenes.

I was fortunate to get an agent and the book was sold to a major publisher. My editor asked me to remove the taboo, and quite honestly, I was relieved.
It is a better story, a more touching relationship. I did the work, faced my demons, wrote the scenes--and quite honestly, glad now that I edited them out.

I relate to you on this. I think I actually take too many risks. But...

My books aren't written for the readers. They are published so they can read them, but in the end, I think of my books as the art I have created. Da Vinci would not go back and paint the Mona Lisa with a frown. I won't go back and change scenes because there are those who are uncomfortable with scenes that cross over the "taboo" line.

The way I think about it is that if nobody wrote about it, it would stay in the dark. Because not all readers are the same, nor are they from similar societies.

What shocks some people thrills others. What pains some people makes others laugh.

In the end, I think it is about what the author felt needed to be told in the story, for it is a story that is being told. You are either an entertainer or a story maker.

I also think of it like the movie "Bedtime Stories" because while the kids made the stories more fun and entertaining, they took their uncle's story from him and made it into their own. While fun and creative, and entertaining for them, it leaves the original story maker as nothing more than the administrator of entertainment. Nothing wrong with that, but I feel it to be unfair to take somebody's story from them because it does not suit you.

So...bright and sunny or dark and scary, there is something for everybody in books. But for authors, it must be what comes from within their own mind and heart to create. Let the readers "experience" it as they will.

That's my opinion.

L.F. wrote: "My books are filled with dark doings...murder, rape, incest, etc. I've killed off children, cats and dogs, (oh yes, caught some flak for killing off animals!) Some say my books are too dark and s..."

I love the point you make about religion. Because, regardless of what religion it is, religion is a base in all societies. So, when creating or recreating a society, one must thus show religion. Either in its glory or in its hypocrisy.

I think too many authors get too much flak because they praise or punish a given religion too much.

I personally think it's because when we write for them fiction, they expect fiction. And when we base the society on something as important as religion and show how society is wrong about it (one way or another) it scares us as readers.

Christian wrote: "What shocks some people thrills others."
This is quite true. Even though with my book "Spawn of Evil" I mention that it is an adult fiction thriller containing extreme serial killer sex and violence, some readers complain about the explicit scenes. Go figure.

As a brand new writer myself, I chose to take some risk in writing my first and recently published novel. I was after a very broad audience.

Although the basis of the story is about the makings of a homegrown terrorist on America soil, and where the next suspected attacks could very well come from, its also about moral values, growing up, relationships gained and lost, fruition of one's life dreams, the loss of things most precious in life, emotional struggles, and more.

I drew much of what makes this fiction novel what it is, from my own life's experiences, plus ups and downs, along with that of people known to me. I also drew much from my experiences as an American Trucker, having been a driver before, during, and after the 9/11 attacks and how life on the road changed drastically as a result.

Sometimes there is an exotic side to this life, and I chose to go there and share some of that for fun. Be it based upon my own experiences, or that of friends. Thus, the erotic romance within the novel, to give it some spice.

Now I knew that there would be readers whom do not agree with, nor can swallow some of the lifestyle (drinking, public nudity, voyeuristic sex) choices of some of the main characters. But that is a reality in daily life for some people and not for others, yet it does exist.

I felt that these situations in the novel added a unique excitement to the storyline and the individual characters, and helped to lighten up (in part) an otherwise heart wrenching and tragic story.

In writing Fallen Angel Of The Highway, my intent was to provoke thought within the reader to better evaluate those around them, as different forms of terrorist acts become more and more a part of our daily lives. I also wanted to delve into the possible causes in the makings of a future terrorist.

Finally, I wanted to satisfy the palates of those whom enjoy the exciting and romantic side of life, that being of the main character's. Plus I wanted to leave the reader feeling like they had just been on a road trip they would not soon forget!

Today The New York Times asks "What Are the Last Literary Taboos?" —and that question is answered by Francine Prose and James Parker:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/20/boo...

Very interesting read Alice. Thanks for sharing with the group.

I like to take risks with my writing. I try to capture real life events. Several of my stories are quite dark, embodying paedophilia and white slave trafficking.
My characters drink and swear. They have sex. Doesn't everyone?
I find it hard to kill off animals though.
In one book, the protagonist was forced to kill his best friend because he asked him to,when the friend had been brutally beaten.

yes, no killing of animals! I was overly careful about the sex parts, and wondering why the heck? And the swearing - quite frankly and I bartended at a long shoreman's bar and worked with teamsters, I don't like to read books that overuse cuss words - not that I'm innocent of overusing. Still, too much on the page is a real turnoff for me.The drug and child abuse (corporal punishment not sexual) I was free with. You are right about "Doesn't everyone"?

I have found the reactions and comments to my first novel Fallen Angel Of The Highway from certain readers quite interesting and even unexpected. Meaning those of strong religious beliefs and less adventurous in life, one would think that they'd most likely frown upon certain actions and sexual content in a story.

Interestingly enough while I was writing this novel, I shared my intent to kill off the beloved dog of the protagonist with a select few. ALL including my wife loudly protested! So, I simply brought the situation to the threshold, even hinting at that possibility being the dog's fate. Then I let the reading choose the possibility of the outcome.

Then, having friends of different lifestyles and sexual practices, I chose to be adventurous with the sexual escapades of the protagonist and other characters within the story. It worked!

It includes nudism, exhibitionistic and voyueristic sex, plus a possible hint of female bi-sexuallity. Although these are not the main plot of the story they do add a nice twist to it.

The very ones I thought would have trouble digesting it, instead loved it! Go figure. Maybe the secret in being risky, is all in how you present the "riskiness" in your book. {:)

I would agree with you Gary. Just like in films, the audience/reader knows when they are being manipulated with gratuitous sex, violence and abhorrent uses of language-it is all in how you choose your "risk" to be played out to move your story along and if it somehow enhances what you are trying to say.

I just met up with an acquaintance who commented he did not like the sex in my first book. He admitted that this was probably because he knew me and my wife rather than the sex itself!

I think we all take a risk just putting words on a page regardless of what the words describe. I do limit my use of expletives and I have taken concious decisions on the level of violence depicted. It has to fit with the story.

In my latest, the sequel to the book we discussed, there is a fairly explicit torture scene. I don't know if I have gone too far or not far enough - the readers will judge. It is not a children's story. There is also less sex in the sequel, not because I was unwilling to write it but because the story did not go there.

Too often I see significant violence depicted (in film and TV) but sex, even in a loving relationship, is never mentioned or shown. US non-cable TV is the prime offender but not the only one. Look at the outrage over a celebrity's nipple being exposed compared to the average newsreel from a war zone or famine.

We must write what we feel the story needs, whilst avoiding contrived inclusion or exclusion of certain scenes, in case someone doesn't like it. As June said doesn't everyone, we are all here because of the sex act (or a laboratory's replication of it).

The world is a very violent place not just man made. Describing someone dying from cancer or Ebola can be as equally graphic as a knife scene.