Fringe Fiction Unlimited discussion

I find that I'm writing a story that involves a lot of world building. And the past, as you can imagine has a lot to do with the future state of things so I'll have to refer to it often.

So, what do you consider info dumping when you're reading someone's novel? Do you have any examples of novels that have info dumping?

What about a fantasy/dystopian/etc novel that revealed the history and world gracefully? (don't say Harry Potter lol)


And as for as your own writing, how do you as a writer avoid info-dumping?


To the professional EDITORS on here..... Is info dumping something you advise authors on when they pay for the full editing treatment?

Avoid info dumping by putting such details in conversation. At the same time, don't make conversation seem like a means to an end. Have them mention something, and have it connect directly to the story in that way.

Richard wrote: "Avoid info dumping by putting such details in conversation. At the same time, don't make conversation seem like a means to an end. Have them mention something, and have it connect directly to the s..."

This. Exposition is a great way to do it, though it can be overdone.
If all else fails, you can always include a timeline or other such in the front/back of your book to help others keep track of all that goes on.
I know in science fiction, when you're talking on the scale of thousands of years, lots of authors do this.
And if all else fails, and the only way you can really find to include it is to "Dump" it, I usually leave it out. This is easier if it's not directly connected to a plot point.

Lanae wrote: "To the professional EDITORS on here..... Is info dumping something you advise authors on when they pay for the full editing treatment?
..."

Yes. But not every editor will unless you make it clear that you are looking for that kind of feedback. When you are in the process of hiring an editor, bring up your concerns and make sure that you are paying to have them addressed.

There are lots of ways to deal with backstory. Richard and Riley have covered the big ones.

The idea is to weave the backstory into the overall fabric of the story. So you can have some conversational exposition or some campfire stories--just be sure that the narrative stays interesting. If it is in the form of dialog, it should be natural and not turn into a lecture; if it is a campfire story, there ought to be a bear in the woods--they should not just be sitting around eating their beanie weenies. The backstory can be told in fragments over the course of the novel, so the pieces come together gradually.

Where you have a history or a past event or a biography that is in itself a complete story, you have the option of setting it aside as an included document in the back of the book. But as Riley advised, if you feel you have too much backstory to avoid wedging it all in there as a big awkward mess, you may need to do some painful surgery.

Consider the first Star Wars movie. Most of the backstory was touched on only as far as it concerned the action of that first film. Solution: make more movies, each revealing a little more backstory. If the other movies hadn't been made, the first film still would have been fine--it wouldn't have gotten better by cramming in more story line as a hedge against there never being enough sequels to tell it all.

Pretty sound advice here—incorporate it within the story, in dialogues... and avoid the "history book-like prologue of doom".

Make sure, though, that it also makes sense when it comes to the characters. When two people talk about something they're both supposed to know (because it's part of their world's history), don't have them recap it as if they didn't know, as it creates awkward conversations. For instance, let's say that they're talking about Duke X, who's known for his prowess with a sword but also his misadventures with women. The characters are from the Duke's area, know this very well, and it wouldn't make sense to either of them to remind the other of those facts. Compare:

"There's a troubling rumour about our Duke, who is very skilled with a blade, and who's had countless misadventures with his mistresses over the years"

To:

"Have you heard the latest rumour about the Duke?"
"Which one? That he's slain his opponent in a duel again? Or that he's lost half his money because of his new mistress—again?"

(Not the best thing I could come up with, I know, but bear with me, it's almost midnight here and I'm tired. ^^ What I mean is that the info can be conveyed through dialogue in plenty of natural ways.)

When I'm editing someone's book, if I think they're dumping too much info on the audience at once then I always point it out. There's a limit to how much an audience can take in at one time. It's a good idea to try and present those kinds of details in soundbytes and work it in around dialogue in some way. That makes it easier for readers to digest.

I was going to ask what info dumping is but I'm guessing it's when you give too much info on particular topics within the book?

How I avoid info dumping is with practice I maintain a balance of dialogue and telling. What ever I haven't told the reader descriptively, I let come out in dialogue that way it works out well for me and the reader.

Justin wrote: "I was going to ask what info dumping is but I'm guessing it's when you give too much info on particular topics within the book?"

In fiction, when an author has information that is not worked into the storyline.

"A woman walks into a bar and asks to use the phone. She's five foot nine in her bare feet and has brown hair. She can afford her Italian leather pumps because her husband Ronald is a banker at a major firm. They have four children."

All of that may become pertinent to the story, but the lady just wants to use the phone. We can wait to learn the rest of it from the coroner or when she meets Ronnie for lunch or picks her kids up from daycare.

In books that require world building (usually fantasy), it can get cumbersome supplying all the possible backstory, but a big part of the appeal of the fantasy genre is the jumble of stories within a story and piecing them all together. The challenge for the author is to reveal everything that needs to be revealed in a timely and interesting way without swamping the main story with subordinate stories and unnecessary details.

Longhare wrote: "Justin wrote: "I was going to ask what info dumping is but I'm guessing it's when you give too much info on particular topics within the book?"

In fiction, when an author has information that is ..."

Ah, that makes sense.

Moving this to the "Group Questions" Section

Justin wrote: "I was going to ask what info dumping is but I'm guessing it's when you give too much info on particular topics within the book?"

It has several subtly different meanings. Some people use it to mean giving data in exposition. Others to mean exposition that sits like a lump in the midst of the prose -- it is possibly to put chunks of exposition in your story and avoid that, if you work at it. Still others to mean any information bestowed on the reader -- including in dialog -- where the reader can tell that it's being done to clue him in.

For instance, in Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows, when Snape dumps his memories for Harry, his immediate motive is to communicate the information that Dumbledore asked him to pass on, but he dumps too much for that -- the obvious purpose of Rowling's cluing in the readers is a little too obvious. (sigh the fun part is that could easily be fixed: he was dying, and lost control of the process, or just wanted to error on the side of too much rather than to little; after the last year, he discovered that he actually want to have people know the truth; he wanted to reveal enough for Harry to know he could trust Snape and so the information.)

Exposition is an elegant way to get info across. The thing is that since it does not move the story onward you need some other attraction to carry on. In my experience, most writers either use curiosity -- the information is crucial for what happened -- or attractive voice. (There are writers who've managed to open a story with exposition by making the voice attractive enough.) It helps to have the entrance into and exit from exposition be as smooth a transition as possible, both stylistically and by having, for instance, characters thinking on the topic before seguing into it.

I always liked it when authors would just kinda slowly spread it out little by little in all sorts. some in dialogue, some in narrative.
one I liked the best was the The Gunslinger. he makes it clear it's a western area, but all the while, he's not giving useless random facts, just the need-to-know. not to mention, it's spread out efficiently and sometimes in the given context, it answers itself without having to give the reader a huge paragraph explaining.
so i'd say, write it in a way that the context clues can help the reader out, don't treat them stupidly basically.

In-cluing -- the technique of grinding it up finely and spreading it out -- is one of the favorites for good reason.

Also, the writer has to be very very very careful about whether to add this or that or the other piece of knowledge because just because you've built the world doesn't mean it all has to go into the story.

Michael wrote: "I always liked it when authors would just kinda slowly spread it out little by little in all sorts. some in dialogue, some in narrative.
one I liked the best was the The Gunslinger. h..."

The first line about the desert being the "apotheosis of all deserts" just says mountains. One of my favorite lines in the book and the series.

Mary wrote: "Also, the writer has to be very very very careful about whether to add this or that or the other piece of knowledge because just because you've built the world doesn't mean it all has to go into the story. "

Words of wisdom right there.

Riley wrote: "Mary wrote: "Also, the writer has to be very very very careful about whether to add this or that or the other piece of knowledge because just because you've built the world doesn't mean it all has ..."

very much haha

Ashe wrote: "Michael wrote: "I always liked it when authors would just kinda slowly spread it out little by little in all sorts. some in dialogue, some in narrative.
one I liked the best was the [book:The Guns..."

deserves a reread now...

I also like spreading info around in dialogue or in small narrations, rather than one hundred-line paragraph (which is what info dumping does).but it does affect the word count, doesn't it?