Catholic Thought discussion

After approximately 150 years of relative quiet we see the persecution of Christians resume in 249 A.D. with Decius becoming emperor of Rome. As Dr. Carroll narrates some of the events in the reign of Decius it appears that Decius was aware of the crumbling of the Roman Empire and blamed the Christians. The Christians had been a handy group to blame, now the real drive increased to a desire to eradicate Christianity from the world.

While it is difficult to remember all of the names and occasions of the martyrs the mutual support and willingness to die rather than abandon the faith seemed to have the largest impact on the non-Christian community. There are a number of modern day scholars that question the number of people that were actually martyred during these persecutions but the way in which they died is the key to subsequent conversions.

This willingness to die also formed one of the earliest splits within the church. As more and more people were called upon to denounce their Catholic beliefs many faced severe penalties and even death but there were also those who lapsed. When the persecutions subsided, those who had lapsed attempted to rejoin the church; many bishops did not want them back. Others felt that after penance they should be allowed back. Pope Cornelius was the first to rule for readmission, this was reaffirmed by Pope Steven I. Also, Pope Steven I upheld the Church’s teaching against re-baptizing those who were originally baptized by a heretic. The Church has always honored a Trinitarian baptism. This is an important ruling not only for baptism but also for other sacraments; the validity of a sacrament not being dependent on the worthiness of the priest administering the sacrament. While these decisions were made and affirmed in the second and third centuries they would be called upon again and again during the Reformation.

Dr. Carroll calls attention to the fact that “no Pope has ever apostatized” but he clearly shows how different their reactions were to the threat of bloody persecution. He points to the fact that the papacy remained vacant for 2-4 years, clearly it was the vocation not wanted.

I really enjoyed his description of the young Constantine fleeing from Galerius; and the point of view Dr. Carroll takes in describing this escape. He is correct in noting that all of Christianity would look vastly different today if Constantine had not made good his escape.

When Constantine took the throne the persecutions ended and for the first time it was legal to be a follower of Jesus Christ. Dr. Carroll goes on to describe how in a Christian society Christ would be specifically acknowledged and encouraged by public law. We all can judge the level of Christianity within our society by how much encouragement religious beliefs receive.

Dr. Carroll spends a good deal of time, for him anyway, on the Donatist movement and schism. This movement basically asserting a holier than thou attitude when looking at re-admitting those who had lapsed back into the church. The sides, one holding a very rigorist view, the other holding a very relaxed view were not about to reach any type of compromise; but the Popes of the time seemed to walk the middle path. This section of chapter twenty is worthwhile because schisms, such as Donatism, have a way of repeating over the centuries.

Chapter 19

I'm trying to not read Mike's comments yet as I'm almost, but not yet, done with Chapter 20.

Again, for me this book very nicely complemented my other summer read, The First Thousand Years of Christianity. As I've read these chapters I've wondered how I might have responded in those times. For sure, I would want to celebrate Easter on the exact day of death and resurrection regardless of how that falls in the week, but, having always celebrated it the other way, this current method probably works better for working folks. Sadly, it's not a heavily Christian culture anymore that practices the faith like that. Even though our churches are stuffed for Easter, a great majority still don't know the full story, haven't read the Bible, etc.

As for the issue of reinstating lapsed Christians, I can't decide how I might have responded. I overwhelmingly support Jesus's call for mercy and forgiveness, but I know I've already felt so frustrated with the Israelites for so many prior times of abandonment of the faith before, that combined with the frustration that these people lived in close proximity to the time of Jesus's life, saw so many miracles, miracles even among those tortured. It feels unfair that those who did stay faithful during those horrible times of seeing people roast in chairs, bodies pulled apart, knowing the truth of the gladiator arenas, etc. should have to quickly admit back those who abandoned their faith. Yet, forgiveness is what it's all about.

The baptism debate is another big issue. On that I feel certain that a heretic baptism would not set well with me. Even if proclaimed in the name of the Trinity, I would want it repeated in the presence of truly faithful gaining a clean slate so to speak. That said, I completely understand the church stance on the fact that the presider is irrelevant if otherwise correct.

I think it was in this chapter that I remember feeling relief when Diocletian returned to the old ways of government, or sort of. It was not exactly democratic, but it was an attempt to balance the power.

There were so many moments when things could have gone completely differently. What a rollercoaster ride early Christianity must have been!!!

And, I never tire of Constantine's story. That fateful ride through the night reminded me so much of Paul Revere. The visions and dreams were so inspiring. It feels in reading this like the air itself must have been electric with so much happening of such great importance!

Finally, there was a sense of justice in the end as each persecutor was made to suffer as well.

It does seem unjust that there were those who died for the faith and others who denied the faith. But I have to remember that Peter denied Christ three times and Paul had persecuted Christians. Thank God for mercy.

Agreed.

I feel like everywhere I look I am reading about martrys. Today is St. Teresa of Avila's Day and I found a book to read by contemporary authors on the saints that had a chapter on her to take with me to Adoration today. It's called Tremor of Bliss: Contemporary Writers on the Saints by Paul Elie if you are interested. Anyway, in St. Teresa's chapter it talks about how she wanted to be a martyr to fast track to obtain the great blessings. LOL.

In another chapter in this book I read the story of St. Jean De Brebeuf. He went to evangelize the Huron Indian tribe in Quebec. Somehow, in the process, the Iroquois tribe felt threatened and decided to kill ENTIRELY the Hurons and anyone with them....including our Saint. From this book..."Brebeuf was led out first. They tied him to a stake and went to work. He showed no sign of pain, but called out encouragement to his fellow captives and threatened the Iroquois with hellfire for their wickedness. They applied their own fire to him, and when that didn't shut him up they cut off his lips and stuck a hot iron down his throat. They poured boiling water over his head in mock baptism, hung a necklace of burning hatchets around his neck. They made him witness the torture of Lalemant. Nothing broke him. His stoicism provoked them to greater and greater outrages. They stripped off his flesh and ate it in front of him.. Finally, in a fury, they cut his heart out and ate that too. By his calm fortitude he inspired them to kill him much sooner than they'd intended. They tortured him for less than four hours before impatiently taking his life. Lalemant's agony was more evident, and therefore more satisfying, and they carefully spun it out for seventeen hours".

Good grief!!!!!

That last chapter was written by Tobias Wolff, one of my favorite authors who I just found out today is Catholic.

Wow! That is some brutal stuff! I'm glad I already ate my lunch :-) A bullet to the head or an arrow to the heart would have been better, but martyrs never seemed to die a peaceful death. It is unbelievable how humans can be so vicious and cruel, and continues to be.

I know!!!! I just about fell out of my chair reading it!!!!

That has to be the worst of any that I've read or heard of. The Japanese were pretty ruthless in their persecutions of Christians after they decided to kick everyone out of Japan. But, not like THAT!

I think that particular saint had a very distinctive personality. So a little more on him. Born 1593 to an aristocratic family in Normandy. Arrived in Quebec 1625 as a Jesuit missionary. Indians forced him out 1629, but he returned in 1634 and stayed 15 years till tortured and killed.

"His mission was to bring unbelievers to the Church, to harvest souls, and he allowed no scruple or doubt or courtesy to stand in his way. When he couldn't persuade, he threatened. His sermons were hectoring and endlessly repetitious, so much so that ridiculing him came to be a sport among the Hurons, who had to be bribed with tobacco to listen to him at all. He hoarded food, and during times of starvation rationed it out to those who made the best show of piety. He was capricious in his use of baptism; at one time he withheld it from dying children for fear of being blamed for their deaths, at another he forced it on them even against their parents' wishes".
- Tremor of Bliss: Contemporary Writers on the Saints

I'm don't think that's so admirable. Perhaps this is why we don't hear much about this saint.

Chapter 20

Finally done!!! :-)

I really appreciated Dr. Carroll's explanation of the Donatist rebellion. Other sources I've read on this glosssed things over to where it was hard to get a meaningful sense of it all. This was by far the most detailed account I've seen.

I wish we knew a bit more about Bishop Ossius and why he, of all people, was the one to have such a close mentoring relationship with Constantine.

This was also the greatest level of understanding I've thus had about St. Gregory.

Then we end on a big hurrah for Constantine. Truly it feels like he should be credited with the beginning, or at least fostering, of human rights. He truly tried to protect all and that is admirable. Today we are not at this level, although to be fair we don't know how well law matched with practice.

It was good to see Licinius go down. I'm not sure why there was even discussion of the appropriateness of this death, but I do feel it was justified for all the reasons mentioned.

Wheew! Thank you again for recommending this book. I have truly enjoyed my experience and it has greatly increased my own knowledge of this time period.

Apparently some things never change, in chapter 19 under Valerian’s rule we are told “Taxation had become confiscatory for the upper middle class, upon whom the empire depended for effective local government.”

I know! I thought the exact same thing! LOL.

Leslie wrote: "Agreed.

I feel like everywhere I look I am reading about martrys. Today is St. Teresa of Avila's Day and I found a book to read by contemporary authors on the saints that had a chapter on her to ..."


FYI - Today is St. Jean (John) de Brebeuf Day. Thought I'd share that with you since I shared his story here.

Susan Margaret wrote: "Apparently some things never change, in chapter 19 under Valerian’s rule we are told “Taxation had become confiscatory for the upper middle class, upon whom the empire depended for effective local ..."

There were many places in the "Founding of Christendom" where we could have used the date of 2015 and those reading the book along with the daily news papers would have merely nodded in agreement.

Mike wrote: "There were many places in the "Founding of Christendom" where we could have used the date of 2015 and those reading the book along with the daily news papers would have merely nodded in agreement."

So true!

I humbly disagree or am not yet enlightened about reconciling God’s Sixth Commandment to Moses and “Lord God of armies”. (p. 529) In the words of Carroll “War is a great evil; but when God’s children must fight, He will help them fight well”(p. 529-30). I do not understand Moses coming down from the mountain with the tablets of God’s law and directing the children then to the Promised Land, which they must first win by war. In a similar situation is Constantine’s vision of a cross a symbol of victory for Christianity? Is this part of the mystery of God’s ways which are beyond human comprehension that I should accept? Christ’s endless humility was not of this kind. But would “turning the other cheek” as Jesus taught in the Sermon on the Mount only mean submission to forces of evil? I am left with just these “hints and guesses” . . .” These are only hints and guesses, Hints followed by guesses; and the rest Is prayer, observance, discipline, thought and action.”(TS Eliot “Dry Salvages”)