North & South discussion

In the interests of fair mindedness - and to show that we do in fact care about other aspects of the North and South story than the handsome Mr. Thornton, I have decided to post a comparison topic similar to our discussion "Mr Thornton vs. Mr Darcy." So then... which heroine do you prefer? What qualities do you value in each? How far can they be compared? Have fun discussing. :)

Well it's hands down Elizabeth for me. She didn't have to grow on me whereas Margaret did. Also, some of Elizabeth's prejudice and dislike of Darcy I think is acceptable or rather, understandable - the slight, the uncivil proud behaviour he exhibited, the separation of Jane Bingley. Whereas I don't think Margaret's dislike was quite as understandable as Thornton never really does anything 'wrong' , so to speak, like Darcy. Thornton is always friendly and tries to be friends with Margaret from the off but she decides she doesn't want to her. Margaret's dislike is out of ignorance I think, whereas some of Elizabeth's is out of wrong doing on Darcy's part, but I admit some of Elizabeth's is out of ignorance as well, the Wickham thing and also ignorance of his character.

(Notice how I have managed to bring it onto the men again without even realising it? ;) )

I also prefer Elizabeth's wit and liveliness.

Well Elizabeth never had to deal with anything so far out of her realm of experience, for all her low connections she was still moving within the confines well bread society.

Thornton does not have the manners of someone in Margaret's experience who would have that much power and respect, but she is to be on equal or even lesser terms than him. She is also used to the poor being grateful for her help, so she doesn't know how to interact with anyone at first.

I can't help feeling that Lizzy would have handled it better if she had been put in that position, her behaviour is the older, more confident, more comfortable with herself. To give Margaret credit though, she doesn't give up, she learns and becomes a better, stronger person in doing so.

So from the books I pick Elizabeth... but from your choice of film adaptations in the pictures above I pick Margaret on principle. ;)

Haha you make good points Louise. And I agree Lizzy would have handled it better. But Margaret learns and adapts eventually so credit to her!

One thing... "Well bread society" bread? Brown or white? ;)

LOL It's been a long day :p and there's me thinking you'd take issue with my slur on your favourite adaptation.

(I can't see the picture properly! Becca uploaded it. Is it 95 Elizabeth then?)

I figured that was what you were getting and I refrained from commenting on that fact, because you have basically said you prefer Elizabeth so :) I didn't comment. You only wished to annoy me by selecting Margaret for the film adaptations but you said you prefer, book wise, Lizzy and that wins over films ;) so ha ;)

Yes it's the 95 one, I wasn't actually trying to annoy you, though that's always fun. ;)

It was more my sincere belief that she was a terrible Lizzy and Daniela Denby-Ashe was a very good Margaret, so out of the two of them Margaret wins.

Whatever! ;)

she was a very good Margaret I agree. (But so was Ehle a great Elizabeth!)

Whatever! ;)

(Tehehe ;) )

Soph wrote: "Well it's hands down Elizabeth for me. She didn't have to grow on me whereas Margaret did. Also, some of Elizabeth's prejudice and dislike of Darcy I think is acceptable or rather, understandable -..."

I like them both for the strong women they are, but I have to give the edge to Lizzy for the reasons Soph mentioned. Also, if I remember the book correctly, Margaret was into Christian charity and that's when she went to see Bessy in the fist place. I know she's the daughter of a clergyman and Christian charity was a big deal in the Victorian era and at least she's doing something but... I'd like to think Lizzy would go visit someone in need just because it's the right thing to do, sort of like Anne Eliot does with Mrs. Smith.

I agree with that point also Qnpoohbear. Although had Margaret not had such a Christian upbringing I still think she would have visited Bessy anyway.

I've only read through P&P once, and remember most points from the adaptations rather than text, so I'm not as familiar with Elizabeth's merits.
Although the Margaret of the mini-series seemed pretty haughty, I understood her so much better after reading the book.
How old is each heroine? Margaret is only 18 or 19 when she arrives in Milton.
I have to credit Margaret for her tremendous strength and her selflessness. From the very beginning, she was patient in living as second string with the beautiful and petty Edith. She never even thought to be jealous.
And the string of calamities she has to deal with all in a row - her father's decision to leave his living, breaking it to her mother, rejecting an unwanted proposal, arranging a major move to a place she dreads to go - makes me admire her!
And then she has to acclimate to a lowered standard of living, adjust to a vastly different culture and social sphere - all while trying her best to keep her parents happy.
Good grief, is it any wonder she's a little irritable with Thornton, who makes a mistake in disparaging the South, when she's pining for the life she had to leave behind?
And then later she has to endure the crushing realization that she made a mistake in rejecting John, but thinks it's too late because she must man-up and keep the secret of her brother and her lie. She makes great sacrifices and suffers greatly -- all in silence with no friend to turn to. (More like Elinor Dashwood, whom I really admire.) Oh, and both her parents die.
I guess I'm just overwhelmingly impressed at all she manages to endure without turning sour on others and wallowing too much in self-pity. I don't know if I could have handled all that trauma in three years at such a tender age. I think she's a fabulous female hero. You go, girl!

Right then, I think it's about time I added my own opinion here...

First, @Soph and Louise: You guys are so funny! :D Brown or white bread. Louise, I would join in on your side of that debate, were I not terribly afraid of getting figuratively whacked over the head by Soph. :P

Now then, to the actual question: I really struggle with this, to be perfectly honest. It is certainly - as Soph mentioned - a point in Lizzy's favour that her prejudice is a little better founded than Margaret's, and I certainly appreciate Lizzy's liveliness. However, this also makes her a little prone to impulsiveness, whereas generally Margaret's actions are well considered and based on her own strong character and principles, which are often if not always correct, but at least she is true to herself. And she does try to improve herself where she finds fault.

Furthermore, I think because of the sensible and mature way in which Margaret generally behaves, it's easy to forget that in the beginning she's only about eighteen years old. So yes, perhaps Lizzy would have handled the change better, but she does have more experience of life than Margaret. And she also has the support of a loving sister (or sisters), whereas Margaret's only brother has fled the country. On that note; I hardly blame Margaret for her lack of liveliness at times. Lizzy is more or less content with the life she is leading, whereas Margaret has a great deal to cope with in her transition to the North.

In this way I agree with Trudy; the incredible trials that Margaret endures, and the way in which she handled them at her age inspires in me a very sincere admiration. One can hardly wonder at her lack of liveliness with what she is enduring, and in fact her incredible strength and efforts to stay happy are amazing. Her wit and intelligence are equal to Lizzy's, and I like to think that once she got past all the trials she had to endure, she would have become much happier.

So then, in conclusion, I would say that at the beginning of the respective stories, I do like Lizzy Bennet a little more than Margaret Hale, due to her liveliness and her more well-founded prejudice. However, as the stories go on, Margaret grows considerably in my esteem. So by the end of the stories, I would say that my preference tends toward Margaret as a heroine, though it is a very close run thing.

Interesting point and good points. Both of you.

Trudy, Lizzy is 20.

They're both very young then.
One of the things that is very inspiring, especially to the time periods in which both these heroines were written, is the determination of each of these women not to be pushed into a marriage they didn't want.
There's a decided freedom in their spirit to not be molded by others but to think for themselves. That would be a great role model for young women both then and now!
I love those elements in both Lizzy and Margaret.

Trudy wrote: "They're both very young then.
One of the things that is very inspiring, especially to the time periods in which both these heroines were written, is the determination of each of these women not to o be pushed into a marriage they didn't want.
There's a decided freedom in their spirit to not be molded by others but to think for themselves. That would be a great role model for young women both then and now!
I love those elements in both Lizzy and Margaret. ""

Excellently said! I admire both heroines and I do need to read N&S again more carefully. (I skimmed it after watching the mini series). I think the female authors are to be commended for creating heroines who appeal to readers even after 150-200 years. I doubt they ever thought that anyone in the 21st century would be still reading and discussing their books.

It is such a shame they will never know the true extent of popularity their novels achieved and how loved they still are so many years later!

It's sad that Jane Austen died 100 years before she became popular. I don't think Elizabeth Gaskell will ever achieve such popularity outside of academic circles and PBS/BBC historical drama lovers, but it must have taken a lot of courage and effort for her to do what she did and I admire that.

Hmmm...I think I might prefer Elizabeth...
Simply because, like Soph said, Elizabeth had a good reason for disliking Darcy. He was proud and somewhat snobbish in the beginning. Margaret's prejudices were more unfounded. There were times I wanted to smack her. So she had to grow on me. (Don't get me wrong, I liked her, but sometimes I got very mad at her.)

I completely agree, Anne! :) For all those reasons I liked Lizzie more in the beginning of the respective stories - as you say, Margaret really has to grow on the reader. But having said that, once she has grown, I must admit to liking her more than Lizzie, by the end of the respective stories. Besides, I think it's a good thing that Margaret had somewhere to go, so to speak. While Elizabeth did have to get over her prejudice, the reader knows that she had some good reason for it, so there isn't too much room for improvement in her character, only in some of her views. The great thing about North and South is that we get to watch Margaret grow as a character, not only in the way she views the world or certain people, but in her a person. :)

I did like Margaret and she continued to grow on me all the way to the end. I love the way she would defend Thornton to everyone after she had gotten to know him. The problem was, she never did to his face.

Was anyone but I pleased that she threw everything to the wind and kissed his hand? That she made the first move, so to speak? I mean, he had waited a long time, I think he deserved it.

You're quite right, the fact that she never, ever defended him to his face had me almost bouncing up and down in impatience, thinking "Oh, come on, just go and tell him that!" Every time Margaret would defend Thornton's character to others my heart would give a little leap, but I was also sad because he never heard her do so.

Yes! I've watched N&S so often now that I can't remember my first reactions to everything, but I still remember my breath catching in my throat, smiling with tears in my eyes when she impulsively kissed his hand. It was such a perfectly beautiful moment, and I wasn't expecting it! And I think the expression on Thornton's face when Margaret kisses his hand reflects how long he had waited for that moment. He did deserve it, through and through. :)

I know, I almost felt giddy! It was such a sweet scene and oh....there are not words.

<3 We may always try to describe that beautiful scene in the best way that we can, but in the end, you are right - there are no words.

On the contrary I do not think that Elizabeth had such a great reason for disliking Mr. Darcy at the beginning. She started that dislike of him just because he did n0t find her pretty enough (well I would ignore him as well, sooooo). Elizabeth was just annoying for the first half of the novel and I did not like that I saw Darcy from her eyes and not from his words. She grew more tolerable (that word) in the second half of the novel.

Ms. Margaret is a strong willed woman who was also prejudice of her views of Mr. Thornton in the beginning and his mother certainly did not help to make the situation any better.

I value the forgiveness at the end demonstrated by both heroines. I love that they value family so much and would do anything to protect their siblings.

I am not sure I have a preference.

For all reasons above, Margaret.
Plus, Lizzy's "love", or crushes, seems a lot like, to quote Mrs. Thornton "a puff of smoke,--it changes with every wind". She is very eager to believe Wickham, even though Mr. Darcy is very well respected by people whose character Lizzy agrees.
Then, there is Col. Fitzwilliam. Correct me if I am wrong, but she considered him too, didn't she?
Besides, I think Margaret really developed and grew as a person in the book (that's why we hate her at some points, can relate to her in others, but everybody likes her in the end). I don't see that development in Elizabeth. At least, not as strong as in Margaret.

Juliana wrote: "Then, there is Col. Fitzwilliam. Correct me if I am wrong, but she considered him too, didn't she?"

No. She always knew he had to marry a wealthy woman. She never had any real expectations from Wickham either. She enjoyed the company of a charming man. There's nothing wrong with that. Lizzy is lighter than Margaret. She has fewer cares and a more outgoing, livelier disposition. It really isn't fair to compare the two.

Without meaning any disrespect towards Miss Bennet, I really do agree with you here, Juliana. You have some excellent points which I hadn't thought about before!

I think any very devoted fans of Pride & Prejudice would object to the idea that Lizzy's love was any less worthy than Margaret's... but the quote about a girl's love being "a puff of smoke" actually seems very apt here, and I quite understand what you mean. All four characters - Darcy, Thornton, Lizzy, and Margaret - fight against their growing affections to some extent. But Lizzy certainly seems a little more flighty... as you say, in coming to know her own feelings she does consider other suitors (I believe you are right in that she did consider Col. Fitzwilliam, albeit briefly).

Margaret, on the other hand, never considered any other man but Mr. Thornton. Yes, she was younger and perhaps less experienced than Elizabeth, and she certainly denied her feelings for long enough. But only once did she think of loving a man, and once she realised her own feelings no other man than Mr. Thornton was ever considered, even in passing. Again, Austen fans may be up in arms over this idea, but I feel somehow that Margaret and Thornton were stronger in matters of the heart than Lizzy and Darcy. I don't quite know how to explain it.

I also agree with your point about the development in Elizabeth being less than the development in Margaret. Seeing Margaret's growth of character is really a beautiful thing, but the growth of Lizzy's character does not go much beyond her realising that in her tendency for quick judgements she could be sorely mistaken and led into a great deal of trouble.

Do you think, perhaps, that these differences in character are due to the nature of the different works? I remember hearing somewhere - on the P&P 05 Special Features, think - that Jane Austen wrote to entertain, so that people would enjoy her work. Perhaps that was not her only motive, but in Gaskell's case she was certainly trying to convey a great deal about society, about the struggles between men and masters, and about human nature itself. I wonder if this is why Margaret sometimes seems - at least to me - more human, and why the blossoming of her character seems so much more fulfilling.

Qnpoohbear wrote: "Juliana wrote: "Then, there is Col. Fitzwilliam. Correct me if I am wrong, but she considered him too, didn't she?"

No. She always knew he had to marry a wealthy woman. She never had any real expe..."

Yes, you are right, Qnpoohbear - I don't know if Juliana meant "considered" in terms of marriage or "considered" in terms of her own feelings? I don't know about her expectations of Wickham but she was certainly fond of both him and Col. Fitzwilliam at different times.

As to the differences in disposition, do you truly think that Margaret's natural disposition is any less lively than Elizabeth's? Certainly under the weight of all her cares it is difficult for that part of her character to surface. But I believe she enjoys witty or intelligent conversation as much as Lizzy, at Helstone she was certainly very happy, and I always remember her father using her fingers as sugar-tongs, not to mention the way she has with Edith and her son. :)

I agree completely with Becca, but the part that Thornton tried to fight his feelings. Specially in the book, I love his reasoning that, because she rejected him, he'll love her just to rebel against her rejection... Something like that!
But I don't think either that these two novels can be compared. P&P would be nowadays "romcom", with the bizarre characters as Mrs. Bennet and Mr. Collins, while N&S is a drama.
I wouldn't even compare Margaret with Elizabeth, but maybe with a younger and poorer Anne Elliott, that didn't have to wait 8 years to have a second chance... Maybe?

P.S.: I didn't mean Lizzy considered Col. Fitzwilliam in terms of marriage (probably because he never demonstrated any feelings for her, other than curiosity for his cousin's "dear friend"!?!).

Thanks Juliana. :) And I didn't mean that Thornton fought his feelings once he had realised them! Only that he (rather ineffectually, I might add) opposed the recognition of them for some time before he allowed himself both to love and to declare himself - "You can both believe me then, when I say this out of complete indifference to Miss Hale..."

Certainly when you look closely at these two novels the comparison does seem rather odd, but you must admit that certain parallels can be drawn, and where parallel's can be drawn people will find it interesting to compare things - I find the comparison interesting myself! If not entirely sensible. :) I loved your idea of calling P&P a "rom-com", and N&S a "drama"! That's a perfect way of putting it.

In terms of Margaret and Elizabeth, I think the two of them are compared because audiences or readers see that they both begin with strong prejudices - for whatever reason - towards their respective heroes. If I had to choose an Austen heroine to compare with Margaret I might perhaps choose Elinor Dashwood... may I ask why you would make the comparison between Miss Hale and a younger Anne Elliot? I have read Persuasion a few times, but it isn't my favourite, so I'm not extremely well versed in Anne's character myself. :)

P.S. Oh good, that's how I thought you meant it. :) Thank you for clarifying!

I don't think the two characters can be compared. They come from different time periods and the authors approched writing differently and for different audiences. In P&P you have to dig deeper and read more closely to get at character development and romance. In North and South, it's more obvious.
Mrs. Gaskell had a magazine serial and Jane Austen had to pay out of pocket to publish Sense & Sensibility so she chose to sell the copyright to P&P in exchange for a lump sum. It was up to her publisher if he wanted to bring it out and in how many volumes. If she had more space and freedom to write, perhaps Jane Austen would have fleshed out her story more. P&P was "lopped and chopped" before it was published. I wish we had the manuscript of First Impressions to compare. I think Margaret is more like Elinor Dashwood in that she has to step up and be the mature, responsible adult in the family and she buries her own feelings under the burdens she faces caring for her family. Anne Eliot is also similar but she's not as strong or outspoken as Margaret. Lizzy Bennet doesn't have Margaret's burdens therefore she can be lighter and freer to consider other men. Margaret has Henry Lennox, who is snobby and doesn't truly understand her, and Mr. Thornton. Elizabeth has Mr. Collins (eewwwww) and Darcy. I don't think she ever thought of marrying Wickham or even thought of Col Fitzwilliam as anything other than a friend or at most a temporary flirtation. I think she only considered Darcy as marriage material. Once she loved, she loved with all her heart. It's there in the book, you have to pick it out there. Margaret and Thornton have more of an oppotunity to get to know each other and they go through a lot together and of course he was her father's friend. Lizzy's life is less troubled. Sure she has to think about marriage but her father is healthy and not so old that he's going to die tomorrow. Seeing her family through Darcy's eyes makes her realize their faults and contributes to her maturity and character development. His letter to her has a lot to do with her change of feelings and how she perceives people.
*It's NOT entirely true that Lizzy loved Darcy from seeing the beautiful grounds at Pembeley. That helped because it showed her what kind of man he was and how his tastes reflected her own feelings about nature as opposed to the more popular "picturesque" style that appears in Mansfield Park. Pemberley is laid out to enhance the natural beauty of the location. There are no grottoes with hermits or faux ruins of castles or temples to pagan gods. Jane Austen had strong opinions on the landscaping!

Qnpoohbear wrote: "I don't think the two characters can be compared. They come from different time periods and the authors approched writing differently and for different audiences. In P&P you have to dig deeper and ..."

You make some very good points, Qnpoohbear, about the different approaches and audiences of the two novels. I agree that the romance and development are more immediately evident in North & South than they are in Pride & Prejudice. And thank you for the information about the publishing of Pride & Prejudice! I never knew that Austen had been so restricted in that sense. But unfortunately we don't have the first manuscript to compare, so we'll never know which aspects of her novel Jane Austen may have developed if she had been able to do so.

I'm pleased that you agree with my comparison of Margaret to Elinor Dashwood. Certainly in all those aspects you mentioned the two ladies are similar, although I think it's important to note that Margaret never had to deal with a rival for Mr. Thornton's affections, and she had to "step up and be the mature, responsible adult in the family" at a younger age than Elinor. I wonder, which do you think would be the greater trial - to have to try and bury your feelings because your love is engaged to another woman (one he does not love), or to do so because you believe yourself possibly irreparably sunk in his esteem? It's an interesting question, one I'll have to think about myself.

If we are (or rather, I am, I think :D) busy drawing parallels between these two novels, I think that Mr. Lennox is the N&S equivalent of Mr. Collins - though I certainly like Henry more than Mr. Collins! Like you said, ewwww! It's been a little while since I read Pride & Prejudice so I can't say for sure whether Lizzy considered Mr. Wickham as a potential husband, but I have always considered Col. Fitzwilliam to be a "temporary flirtation", which has no parallel with Margaret's character.

Perhaps that is, indeed, because Lizzy lived a happier and more free life during the story, and please believe me that I do not doubt that Elizabeth loved Mr. Darcy with all her heart when she recognised her feelings! Neither do I condemn her for her "temporary flirtations" (or whatever we want to call them) with Wickham and Fitzwilliam, there is nothing wrong with her behaviour! I simply think that - without judgement either way - it is not within the scope of Margaret's character to entertain such a flirtation, even were her circumstances happier than they were for the majority of N&S.

You make some very good points about the development of Lizzy's character after Darcy's letter! And though I persist in thinking that Margaret's character and her relationship with Thornton received more development, you need not worry that I think Pemberley was to blame! I've always been vaguely annoyed with people who think that Lizzy only fell in love with Mr. Darcy because of his huge house and grounds. I agree with you that the house and grounds rather clarified her feelings because they were a reflection of Darcy's nature - there she began to realise his ideas and feelings may be more compatible with hers than she believed - and not his wealth. Then too, his attitude towards the Gardiners did, I believe, also help to clarify her feelings.

If someone had a gun to my head and made me choose I would have to pick Margaret. She is strong, cares passionately for the working class and always puts her family first. She has the most amazing ability to say the wrong thing at the wrong time, but I love her for it and I know she is not perfect. I think that was why I enjoyed reading her so much. Plus she got Mr Thornton. I mean. He beats Darcy hands down, no contest.

I completely agree with you there, Ellen! And your first and last sentences really made me laugh. "Plus she got Mr Thornton. I mean. He beats Darcy hands down, no contest." Couldn't have said it better myself. :D

All those things that you mentioned about Margaret are things I really admire about her, and I really do think her flaws are part of the reason we as readers enjoy getting to know her so well. She's a really wonderful character - sometimes it's so easy to forget how young she is! In that way it's nice to know that as she grows up a little more, she has somewhere to go, things to be improved upon in her character, and you really end up rooting for her, because you know how capable she is. :)

This conversation has forced my hand. I find myself at 4:00am reaching down for my copy of North and South looking guilty and sheepish. I have four library books to read in as many days! I shouldn't be doing this....meh.

One of the things I particularly loved in North and South that I feel Pride and Prejudice lacked in was the window to the heroines mind. With Margaret, when she is going through this period of extreme guilt and shame we see everything. Every um and ah and oh no! We understand her character and really feel for her and know exactly where she's coming from. Whereas with Lizzie I feel like we aren't getting the full story. We're getting the censored thoughts. Margaret is completely open and honest and Gaskell really impressed me with her ability to write so well the thought pattern of the inner turmoil.

Thanks Becca! Your comment made my day :-)

Mr Thornton is way cooler than Darcy!. I mean Mr Thornton bought Margie's mam fruit. Mr Darcy despises Mrs B. Mr Thornton (after being told how unworthy he is) becomes like the most well mannered man ever and when it looks like M has MURDERED someone he covered for her. Whereas Mr Darcy split up Jane and Bingley, insulted the B family and after being told how unworthy he was had a big sulk and was rude to Lizzie from the start!

Also BreadGate is awesome

I also think we learn more about Margaret & Mr Thortons background than we do about Elizabeth & Mr Darcy.

I totally agree Nancy

Ellen wrote: "One of the things I particularly loved in North and South that I feel Pride and Prejudice lacked in was the window to the heroines mind. With Margaret, when she is going through this period of extreme guilt and shame we see everything. Every um and ah and oh no! We understand her character and really feel for her and know exactly where she's coming from. Whereas with Lizzie I feel like we aren't getting the full story. We're getting the censored thoughts. Margaret is completely open and honest and Gaskell really impressed me with her ability to write so well the thought pattern of the inner turmoil. "

Gaskell does that very well. To compare the two novels is really difficult because they were written in different periods. The romantic period came in just after Jane Austen. She wrote her original drafts of Sense and Sensibility and Pride and Prejudice and the novel that became known as Northanger Abbey in her 20s, in the late 18th century. Novels at that time were either the silly gothic stuff Catherine Morland loves in Northanger Abbey (think Twilight) or young girls defending their virtue against wicked men. There were some scandalous novels like Tom Jones, tongue-in-cheek spoofs Shamela and roman a clef books (thinly disguised exposes of polite society). Jane Austen was a pioneer in doing what she did. The original two novels were written in epistolary style and I find that severely limits the amount of showing the author can do. That's what was popular in the late 18th century. By the mid-19th century, dramatic landscapes and emotions were more popular. Jane fell out of favor. Also, paper became cheaper (wood pulp vs. linen) and you see a proliferation of magazines and cheap novels. The public was more literary as well. Jane Austen wrote for the elite. That's who could read and afford to buy novels/a subscription to the lending library. Gaskell didn't face those same limitations. She had a different audience and wrote in a different style.

If Jane Austen had lived longer perhaps she would have written a great romantic novel but she didn't so we have to enjoy what she did give us. Personally, I prefer the light, bright and sparkling comedy of manners to the heavy high melodrama of the romantic writers.

Nancy: We actually do learn quite a lot about Darcy but it's subtle. He never dances at St. James - that means he's not part of the Prince Regent's set. He's not a wild, dashing young buck. His grounds at Pemberley enhance the natural landscape rather than obliterate it to make it more "picturesque" (Continental). We know he bought a piano for his sister because she loves music. That's an expensive gift! It shows he cares about her and respects her passion for music. He's never had a cross word for the servants and finally - he's kind enough to invite Uncle Gardiner to fish on his land. You really have to know the time period to fully know Darcy.

Interesting! I 100% know what you mean. They certainly are written worlds apart and for different audiences. Jane, I feel, has got this brilliant gift for humour and light, however she can get her big boots on and really knuckle down to some awfully harrowing stuff when she wants. Mansfield Park is an extremely dark novel, I think darker than North And South. We had domestic abuse, alcoholism, poverty and cruelty all bound together in a very twisted novel masked by the usual Austen setting and language. I mean look at Mrs Norris. I completely agree with you though, they really cannot be put side by side and compared and contrasted as novels. The writers lived very different lives.

Both however excelled in their chosen genre.

It's really interesting to find that some people completely miss Margaret's development, and/or they don't sympathize with her at all.
A recent reviewer of Gaskell's book at Amazon called Margaret "weak and whiny" and couldn't come up with any reason at all for her to be called a strong heroine.
I'm not sure if it's the way Gaskell makes you have to read between the lines that they miss understanding her real emotions, or if modern readers are frustrated with Margaret's Victorian behavior.
The funniest part about this review is that she called Gaskell's writing boring and passionless!

I like Elizabeth way better. I did not care for Margret. She got on my nerves. I don't really know why, but she did. I could understand and agree with Elizabeth way more.

A.J. wrote: "I like Elizabeth way better. I did not care for Margret. She got on my nerves. I don't really know why, but she did. I could understand and agree with Elizabeth way more."

I agree that it can be frustrating to watch Margaret struggle so deeply with her guilt. It seems over the top. Even Mr. Bell tries to persuade her to loosen up about it.
But Margaret has a very high moral standard for herself and she is in love, which compounds everything she feels. She knows Mr Thornton also has high moral standards and she is convinced that she has lost his respect and, as a consequence, her only chance of happiness. She gets sucked into a veritable whirlpool of guilt and despair to find herself at twenty and having little to look forward to. It can seem a bit much.
Is that what annoyed you about her, or was it something else?

I think a big diffence between both Ladies is that When Elizabeths youngest sister ran off with Mr Wickham she only feared that she losted Mr Darcy's good opinion but in the end it turned out that she didn't. But with Margaret she knew she lost Mr Thortons good opinion because he let know what he though of her for lying & being seen out with a man alone my foolish passion for you is now over & is Miss Hale too remarkable for the truth.

Margaret is so far from weak and whiny! How odd. I wonder if that reviewer finished the book? I dare anyone to go through what Margaret went through without losing composure. It's marvelous she didn't succumb to nerves a lot sooner. She's an amazing heroine. I love Lizzy too, for different reasons. I think if Lizzy went through what Margaret did, she could handle it. She handles Lydia's elopement pretty well.

Yeah! Margaret moves from her beloved home, she nurses her friend who's dying, her entire family either die or are on the run and she is a savvy businesswoman who cares about the impoverished. Weak? Far from it.

Lizzy never had to go though the hardships Margaret did I wonder how Lizzy would have handled losing everyone she loved ?

I've often thought there was a big difference in comparing Lizzy to Margaret, when Lizzy had Jane and Charlotte for friends, while Margaret was rather all alone after Bessy's death mid-way through the book. The loneliness of Margaret is a profound theme. She has no one to turn to.
Granted that Lizzy suffers her emotional battles largely alone as well, but she wasn't destitute of female companionship.