Victorians! discussion

The full title of our November read is Under the Greenwood Tree: A Rural Painting of the Dutch School. Thomas Hardy published it anonymously in 1872; it was his second published novel, the last to be printed without his name, and the first of his great series of Wessex novels.

Whilst Hardy originally thought of simply calling it The Mellstock Quire, he settled on a title taken from a song in Shakespeare's As You Like It (Act II, Scene V).

Please feel free to add any background information here. We open our first comments thread on Sunday November 1st.

You can find free electronic copies in a variety of formats here:

http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/2662

Pip wrote: "The full title of our November read is Under the Greenwood Tree: A Rural Painting of the Dutch School. Thomas Hardy published it anonymously in 1872; it was his second published novel, the last to ..."

A delightful little story! As you point out, its the first of his Wessex novels. Most of his locations were based on actual locations in Southern England; he took the name Wessex from the name of the old Anglo-Saxon that existed there before the Norman conquest. Upper and lower Mellstock, where most of the novel takes place, are thought to be based on Higher Brockhampton (Hardy's birthplace) and Lower Brockhampton and Stinsford.
http://www.go4awalk.com/fell-facts/th...

Here's a walking tour which starts and ends at Higher Brockhampton.
http://www.theguardian.com/travel/200...

And here is a link to the Hardy Society and their walks, including the Mellstock Poems walk.
http://www.hardysociety.org/index.php...

And of course you can use Bing or Google maps to explore the area by entering any one of the names given above. These towns still exist!

This is the country of Under the Greenwood Tree

https://www.google.com/maps/@50.72247...

If it doesn't show you Hardy's cottage (birthplace) near the upper right, just zoom in a bit.

Greenwood Grange, a set of self-housekeeping cottages and houses right in the middle of the Melstock area, claims that it "has been created within and around buildings built by Thomas Hardy’s father in the nineteenth century."

There's also Yalbury Cottage if one wants to go visit the location of the book.

I don't know anything about either place except what I read, which is all good.

I wish I were still able to travel so we could schedule a Victorians! holiday trip to Hardy Country, but sadly, not. But some others might be interested? Reading Under the Greenwood Tree while tramping the very roads he knew as a boy and wrote the book about? Does it get any better than that???

Everyman wrote: "Greenwood Grange, a set of self-housekeeping cottages and houses right in the middle of the Melstock area, claims that it "has been created within and around buildings built by Thomas Hardy’s fathe..."

Hardy country, Dickens's London, the Haworth Moors and then the Lake District. Almost as perfect as the Pacific North West right outside our door.

Peter wrote: "Hardy country, Dickens's London, the Haworth Moors and then the Lake District. Almost as perfect as the Pacific North West right outside our door.
"

Almost! [g]

Thank you Everyman for that wealth of information! Setting is going to be so important to appreciating this novel and it's great to have some early input on Hardy's world.

I have a small(ish) favour to ask: if you have a paper copy of UTGT, and as I know you're familiar with the novel already, would you be able to suggest some suitable divisions for the chapters over the four week period? I have a copy on Kindle, and it's less than ideal for trying to chunk!

I'll then be able to publish a reading schedule.

Many thanks :-)

Pip wrote: "I have a small(ish) favour to ask: if you have a paper copy of UTGT, and as I know you're familiar with the novel already, would you be able to suggest some suitable divisions for the chapters over the four week period? "

I do indeed have a paper copy. While I was still young, long before one could buy used books over the non-existent Internet, when we had to visit or write to bookstores and have them search for copies of the used books we wanted, I had a relationship with an English bookstore which I had gradually, over several years, find me every one of Hardy's books in the delightful small Macmillan's Pocket Hardy. So I have is row of lovely burgandy-with-gold-trim volumes lined up, every one of which has been read at least once and most more than that.

Okay. About divisions? The book is divided into five parts.
Part the First: Winter pages 1-84 (84 pages)
Part the Second: Spring pages 85-154 (69 pages)
Part the Third: Summer pages 155-186 (31 pages)
Part the Fourth: Autumn pages 187-248 (61 pages)
Part the Fifth: Conclusion pages 249-273 (24 pages)

A bit uneven, but I think it makes sense to follow these divisions even if the third week is short at 31 pages and the fourth week is longer if we combine the last two sections at 85 pages.

Okay, those divisions don't help you any if the Kindle edition doesn't have them, does it? But maybe it does, and even if it doesn't, the Gutenberg edition does at
http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/2662
which you can read online to get the chapter titles for each section and the starting and ending sentences if needed.

Is that sufficient, or do you need more from me?

Everyman wrote: "I do indeed have a paper copy. While I was still young, long before one could buy used books over the non-existent Internet, when we had to visit or write to bookstores and have them search for copies of the used books we wanted, I had a relationship with an English bookstore which I had gradually, over several years, find me every one of Hardy's books in the delightful small Macmillan's Pocket Hardy. So I have is row of lovely burgandy-with-gold-trim volumes lined up, every one of which has been read at least once and most more than that. "

I have eight of those, Everyman! They're beautiful aren't they? Unfortunately all the wonderful second hand book shops have closed around here because of an inability to compete with the internet and shop rents increasing. It's definitely not the same searching online as finding a treasure among stacks of books in a musty old shop.

Everyman wrote: "Is that sufficient, or do you need more from me? "

That's fantastic, thank you! And as for more... Well, I'm sure you'll be a top contributor to the discussion once it opens ;-))

Pip wrote: "Everyman wrote: "Is that sufficient, or do you need more from me? "

That's fantastic, thank you! And as for more... Well, I'm sure you'll be a top contributor to the discussion once it opens ;-))"

You'd have to time me up and toss me in a dungeon with no Internet to keep me away!

Count me in! I just discovered this thread, read the comments so far, and decided it might be fun to reread UTGT. I pulled down my old paperback copy, and there was a nice surprise. On the half-title a sticker saying, " Bought at Thomas Hardy's Birthplace/Higher Brockhampton/Dorchester/Dorset". Given the emphasis on setting above, I'll consider this a sign.

Please don't gasp with horror when you read this!

I don't think I've ever actually read any of Thomas Hardy's works. I've certainly seen movies and TV series based on his more well known books, but not READ them!

Ella's Gran wrote: "Please don't gasp with horror when you read this!

I don't think I've ever actually read any of Thomas Hardy's works. I've certainly seen movies and TV series based on his more well known books, bu..."

I studied one in school (Return of the Native), but only read any for pleasure when I joined Goodreads a couple of years ago. Not read UTGT before and just started the first couple of chapters last night :)

Ella's Gran wrote: "Please don't gasp with horror when you read this!

I don't think I've ever actually read any of Thomas Hardy's works. I've certainly seen movies and TV series based on his more well known books, bu..."

No gasping here, EG - I'm practically in the same boat! I think I must have read Tess of the D'Urbervilles though, which I always forget is by Hardy for some bizarre reason. I think I've read it. I might be confusing it with Madame Bovary though, which I've definitely read.... Oh, my poor brain...

Hi Ella's Gran,
I can't tell whether you are in good company or not, but I am in the same boat as you also. I have never read anything by Thomas Hardy and would actually have to google what he has written. I am looking forward to reading Under the Greenwood Tree. Good read has been great for getting me into the English classic literature.

As Everyman mentioned above, it would take dungeons and dragons and no internet to keep him away.

Hardy is a remarkable author.

I drove through Hardy country back in April but I didn't think about it. I was on a Jane Austen tour with a friend and I can see that the road we took from Winchester to Lyme Regis goes straight through Hardy-land. Ah well, next time I go there, it will be for Hardy.

I am very much looking forward to this group read. Hardy's books have been the basis for some great discussions here in the past, and I hope this will be another good one.

I plan to get this from the library soon. It will be my first book by this author.

Has everyone got Hardy's preface of 1896 in their copies? It gives some fascinating background information on the "ecclesiastical bandsmen" (our eponymous "Quire") of the period in which the novel takes place; how they were paid, how they came by their musical scores and supplies, and how their gradual displacement by church organs and harmoniums affected the fabric of small societies such as the fictional Mellstock.

If there is interest, I think it'd be within the law for me to copy it here for you.

Ella's Gran wrote: "Please don't gasp with horror when you read this!."

I wish my reaction had been that mild. As it is, I fainted dead away and landed in a heap on the floor.

Fortunately not injured.

[g]

But in one sense I envy you -- to be able to approach Hardy for the first time with the maturity of age. I used up my first experience of him when I was still a callow youth. Maybe it would have been better if I had waited. As you have.

But don't wait any longer! I might not survive the next faint. [g]

For those reading Hardy for the first, or almost the first, time, I might let you know that Under the Greenwood tree is in some ways typical of him in his passion for his Wessex countryside, but is milder than his later books, when he became much darker (and in my opinion, much richer). So don't let this be your only Hardy, but explore his more mature books too.

Pip wrote: "Has everyone got Hardy's preface of 1896 in their copies? It gives some fascinating background information on the "ecclesiastical bandsmen" (our eponymous "Quire") of the period in which the novel ..."

You're right, it's wonderful information and not spoilers at all.

If anybody's copy doesn't have it (and any publisher which didn't include it deserves to be whipped across Egdon Heath with a hunting crop) it's in the Gutenberg copy, found here
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/2662/2...

I'm so delighted that we're reading this! What a treat for November! Must get reading now! :D

Ella's Gran wrote: "Please don't gasp with horror when you read this!

I don't think I've ever actually read any of Thomas Hardy's works. I've certainly seen movies and TV series based on his more well known books, bu..."

You are in for a treat

I've read several works of Hardy, but this is a first read of this title for me. I'm reading a beautiful edition published in London in 1920. I'm slicing the pages open. Found several titles in a used bookstore years ago.

I found this book
Thomas Hardy's England
in the Senior Center bookshelves when I was waiting for an appointment, but only had a few minutes to browse in it, so of course as soon as I got home I had to go on alibris and find a copy.

It's filled with period photographs -- at least one photograph on almost every page spread. Fascinating stuff. And of course filled with information about the England of the time.

I'm really tempted to start quoting the best bits here, but Pip and Deborah might not want this thread filled up with that sort of stuff, so if they want to start another thread for it that'll be fine.

For just one example, when I opened the book at random, page 46, a comment which is somewhat relevant to Tess, but strongly violates what I've always thought about early Victorian England:

"Pre-marital pregnancy was almost universal in the villages. In 1849 the Reverend S.G. Osborne said 'that for the most part of the ceremony of marriage is not thought of until grounds exist for the preparation of baby linen. I always think Portland is unfairly dealt with in this matter; what is said to be an ancient custom there is at least a very general habit in the rest of the country.' The custom survived later in Portland than elsewhere, and shocked visitors."

One other, relevant to UTGT: Hardy was born in the cottage I gave the site of in 1840, in a cottage his great-grandfather had built in 1801. He lived there until he moved to London in 1862 (aged 22), and returned there in 1867 and lived there with his parents, except for short interludes in London or Weymouth, until his marriage in 1874. "He wrote all or part of his first five novels there, including Under the Greenwood tree (1872), which is set in Bockhampton and nearby Stinsford... He felt that it was 'a great advantage to be actually among the people described at the time of describing them', Bockhampton 'being within a walk of the district in which the incidents are supposed to occur.'"

Deborah wrote: "I've read several works of Hardy, but this is a first read of this title for me. I'm reading a beautiful edition published in London in 1920. I'm slicing the pages open. Found several titles in a u..."

Wonderful. First read of the title for you, and first read of the volume by anybody. I love to find old books with pages uncut; I always think some special mystery must await me there.

BTW, Hardy at times considered himself more of a poet than a novelist. He isn't well known today as a poet, but he has some quite nice work. I plan to pull my copy of off the shelf and browse in it as I read UTGT.

Everyman wrote: "BTW, Hardy at times considered himself more of a poet than a novelist. He isn't well known today as a poet, but he has some quite nice work. I plan to pull my copy of [bookcover:The Complete Poems|..."

A lot of his poems appear in anthologies. Maybe if you have some favourites, Everyman, we could look at them alongside the novel, like we did a little bit back for Anne Bronte.

Clari wrote: " Maybe if you have some favourites, Everyman, we could look at them alongside the novel, like we did a little bit back for Anne Bronte"

I can certainly create a thread for this if you like. Everyman - would you be agreeable to curating it if I set it up?

@Everyman #28 - This is the background information thread, so I can think of no better place for you to quote background information ;-)) Thanks for the offer.
And if folks ain't interested, they won't read it - simples!

Pip wrote: "Clari wrote: " Maybe if you have some favourites, Everyman, we could look at them alongside the novel, like we did a little bit back for Anne Bronte"

I can certainly create a thread for this if yo..."

I'm busy enough that I'll defer to Clari for the privilege of curating it.

Whatever / whoever. I'll set up the thread tomorrow and anyone who wants to can poeticise to their heart's content :-)

Everyman wrote: "Ella's Gran wrote: "Please don't gasp with horror when you read this!."

I wish my reaction had been that mild. As it is, I fainted dead away and landed in a heap on the floor.

Fortunately not inj..."

Chuckling
I certainly can't wait any longer or I may not live long enough to finish! ☺

Uncut pages in old books! Yes! I don't know why but they're so delicious! Like they've been waiting through time just for me to find them. *sparkle*

"The lack of action is implicit in Hardy’s sub-title : ‘A Rural Painting of the Dutch School’: his book is rather rustic idyll than vigorous narrative. The adjective ‘Dutch’ implies the affectionate and knowledgeable realism of Ruysdael or Hobbema, as opposed to pastoral idealisation on the one hand or bucolic grotesquerie on the other."

http://www.hardysociety.org/about-har...

For others like myself whose minds don't bring up images from those artists:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/arts/yourpaintin... (See perhaps 32, 40 for similarity?)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/arts/yourpaintin...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/arts/yourpaintin...

Lily wrote: ""The lack of action is implicit in Hardy’s sub-title : ‘A Rural Painting of the Dutch School’: his book is rather rustic idyll than vigorous narrative. The adjective ‘Dutch’ implies the affectionat..."

Good point.

I was actually thinking Vermeer.

Everyman wrote: "Lily wrote: ""The lack of action is implicit in Hardy’s sub-title : ‘A Rural Painting of the Dutch School’: his book is rather rustic idyll than vigorous narrative. The adjective ‘Dutch’ implies th..."

Hope you (and others) have a chance to flip through some of these (@38). Kind of fun!

Lily wrote: "Hope you (and others) have a chance to flip through some of these (@38). Kind of fun! "

I enjoy that kind of painting, but of course all of those were daytime paintings, and although a lot of the book does of course take place in the daytime, it's the night scenes that open the book that are strongest in my mind.

Everyman wrote: "...it's the night scenes that open the book that are strongest in my mind. ..."

Those remind me of the word paintings Tolstoy provides of mummers going out on sleighs to serenade and to party. I suspect your recent night walk must be bringing the feelings close of what it was like to go out at night without street lights or car lights or even brightly lit houses. Someone fairly recently did a film ("Jane Eyre"?) that used sets with more of a "lit by fire" feel than most. It is so hard to imagine a world without electricity. When my East Coast raised son traveled the interstate at night across the prairies the summer he graduated from college, he asked "What's out there?" The darkness was so very unfamiliar to him.

And, today, NOT then: https://www.google.com/search?q=NASA+...

Try page 73 here:

http://www.nga.gov/content/dam/ngaweb...

Thought I might find more night time paintings, but currently at 472 of this lovely pdf, and really no more, even of good fireside indoor scenes. But enjoy, if you have a few minutes.

I'd recommend messages 1-13 under the author thread for Thomas Hardy, esp. @8 -- double check me on that, you'll recognize which one I mean!

Great little tidbit! I love knowing that Hardy's father was a musician with the choir!

Stubbard apple entries: http://www.bernwodefruittrees.co.uk/d...

http://findwords.info/term/stubbard

Identifying old cider apple varieties in Dorset:

https://philipstrange.wordpress.com/2...

Fun article: http://www.dorsetlife.co.uk/2011/04/d...

Neat finds.

Pip wrote: "Whatever / whoever. I'll set up the thread tomorrow and anyone who wants to can poeticise to their heart's content :-)"

Hi Pip, is this thread anywhere? I couldn't find it, sorry I had to put off the pleasure of Hardy for a while as life got a bit busy.

Clari wrote: "Pip wrote: "Whatever / whoever. I'll set up the thread tomorrow and anyone who wants to can poeticise to their heart's content :-)"

Hi Pip, is this thread anywhere? I couldn't find it, sorry I had..."

The threads for the book are broken into segments.

Deborah wrote: "Clari wrote: "Pip wrote: "Whatever / whoever. I'll set up the thread tomorrow and anyone who wants to can poeticise to their heart's content :-)"

Hi Pip, is this thread anywhere? I couldn't find i..."

I thought one got set up for Hardy's poetry, but I don't find it, Deborah? (Also just looked under the poetry group here: https://www.goodreads.com/topic/group... )