Victorians! discussion

I'm sure Pip will be out here directly, but know some of you are anxious to start the discussion.

“To dwellers in a wood almost every species of tree has its voice as well as its feature. At the passing of the breeze the fir-trees sob and moan no less distinctly than they rock; the holly whistles as it battles with itself; the ash hisses amid its quiverings; the beech rustles while its flat boughs rise and fall. And winter, which modifies the note of such trees as shed their leaves, does not destroy its individuality.”

This beautiful passage takes us straight into the heart of the novel, which is a painting of a society, its inhabitants and their individual voices. Just a couple of questions to kick off with:

In this section we are introduced to the village of Mellstock and in particular the Quire (choir).
What impressions do you get of Mellstock? Is this a pleasant place to live, or are there troubling undercurrents brewing alongside that barrel of Dewy cider?

What impressions does Hardy convey of the “order” of society? Everybody appears to have their place, their post and their position; do you think there might be room for manoeuvre within these, or does this seem unlikely?

I had to go up to the shop Friday night, which was a dark and dreary night here. I have two choices (yes, this will become relevant!). One is to go up the gravel driveway, which curves left before turning right, to the main road, then a bit along the dead-end but paved road, then down the shop driveway. The other, my usual daytime route, is up through the woods and undergrowth on a narrow path that twists to avoid various natural obstacles (including a swampy area). I automatically went up the path, but even with a flashlight and a path I've traversed hundreds of times, on the dark damp night it seemed mysterious, hard to keep to the path (which is narrow and just dirt or wood chips). It felt like another world, the "real world" far away and completely out of sight and sound, almost lost in woods that for all I could see could have gone on forever without ever coming across a human habitation.

Having recently read the opening of UTGT, I realized that this is the normal world that the Quire knew. There were no streetlights in their world, no glow from nearby cities, no lights from car headlights coming along the road, just darkness, darkness, and more darkness, rough paths, maybe the glow of a candle lantern shedding a feeble glow a few feet ahead, but nothing more. For a few moments I was back in their world, surrounded and almost subsumed by nature and the natural environment.

I didn't have this feeling when I read the passages, sitting in a comfortable chair in a brightly lit room. Hardy did a nice job describing the darkness, but it was an experience of reading, not experiencing.

Out there in the woods, I got a whole new perspective on the opening chapter of the book.

I love those opening sentences. How man of us today are so close to nature that we can identify the sounds that the leaves of different trees make? Even if we are outdoors in a quiet enough place to hear the rustle of leaves, do we have any idea that they all have their own voices?

Even those of us who enjoy hiking or camping I think -- at least I do -- view the natural world as a different place, a respite from the real world from which we came and back to which we go. But for Hardy's villagers, that WAS the world. The different sights and sounds of nature were as well recognized by them as the different street sounds are to a city dweller.

Even more than his plots it's this I love about Hardy, his ability to express so richly his passionate love of the world of the nature of his Wessex area and of the inhabitants of it he grew up with that make his writing magical.

So many wonderful images Hardy gives us just in this first page.

"They, too, had lost their rotundity with the daylight, and advanced against the sky in flat outlines, which suggested some processional design on Greek or Etruscan pottery."



"O Attic shape! fair attitude! with brede
Of marble men and maidens overwrought,
With forest branches and the trodden weed;"
http://www.bartleby.com/101/625.html

I enjoy Hardy's use of language.

I think the society described in these chapters was fairly rigid. As Pip indicated, everybody had a role and a place. I get the feeling that there wa no flexibility to work one's way up,however, it might be easier to fall lower.

Deborah wrote: "I enjoy Hardy's use of language.

I think the society described in these chapters was fairly rigid. As Pip indicated, everybody had a role and a place. I get the feeling that there wa no flexibilit..."

I agree that this was the case in the rural areas that Hardy writes about. I think it was less true in towns and cities, as we see Jude trying to do, but for Mellstock, I do agree. And it's also part of the society, I think, that they know all those in the village so well, such as being able to recognize their voices in the dark.

I expected the sumptuous writing... It's Hardy, after all. But I am knocked over by the humor! I found myself listening to this whole section a second time because there was so much that made me chuckle and laugh out loud. Of course now I can't pinpoint anything to mention. Oh, how about the scene where the choristers and violinists are discussing the virtues of the violin versus brass or clarinets? So charmingly human.

I loved the idea of different trees producing different sounds in the wind. I don't believe I've ever thought about that before, although I may have experienced it to a limited extent, e.g., the wind through a belt of fir trees versus in a strand of birches and maples, or the creaking of tall oaks in a strong wind.

But Pip helped me realize the multiple levels of Hardy's writing when she reminded us of the music of the singers and instruments, the voices of the individuals, and the sounds of the village itself.

Pip wrote: "“To dwellers in a wood almost every species of tree has its voice as well as its feature. At the passing of the breeze the fir-trees sob and moan no less distinctly than they rock; the holly whistl..."

For me, the answer to both of your questions is that there seems to be slight tremblings of change beginning as the increase energy of the dances and the heat of the dancers does increase the focus and the energy towards Fancy Day. Yet, as Lily and you observed, there is also a beauty in the first section conveyed through the music of instruments, the individuals and the village. I like the pastoral feeling.

Dewey remarks that Fancy is "As near a thing to a spiritual vision as ever I wish to see." Those are words of high praise, and perhaps words too high to live up to as we read further.

Mellstock does feel like a place set apart from the world. It feels as if the world may pass it by. We shall see.

I have a question: how does one characterize the voice(s) here? "Voice" is a literary concept with which I struggle, so those of you who are more comfortable with it, help, please.

Peter wrote: "Dewey remarks that Fancy is "As near a thing to a spiritual vision as ever I wish to see." Those are words of high praise, and perhaps words too high to live up to as we read further."

Trying to imagine myself into the village life of the time, I suspect that Fancy Day was something totally new and unexpected dropped into the life of the village. In my imagination, the girls in the village are mostly cottage girls, probably working in the fields, any natural beauty overwhelmed by the hard circumstances of rural village life, the lack of privacy in the small cottages, the lack of nice clothes, cosmetics, probably of a ready supply of hot water. These, in my imagination, are what Dick would have been accustomed to.

Fancy was a village girl herself -- Geoffrey's daughter, Mr. Penny says, but went away to get trained, presumably in a good sized town if not in London itself, where she would have been exposed to town life and town standards of female conduct, apparel, and hygiene. She is then dropped straight from the town back into the village like a bright comet streaking across the sky. No wonder Dick is dazzled, mesmerized by her. He's probably never seen anything like her before.

Everyman wrote: "Peter wrote: "Dewey remarks that Fancy is "As near a thing to a spiritual vision as ever I wish to see." Those are words of high praise, and perhaps words too high to live up to as we read further...."

It could also be the fact that she went away. Not noticed before she left, but her absence creating a void so she's noticed upon return.

Deborah wrote: "Everyman wrote: "Peter wrote: "Dewey remarks that Fancy is "As near a thing to a spiritual vision as ever I wish to see." Those are words of high praise, and perhaps words too high to live up to as..."

Fancy Day was described in Ch 7 as being "like a flower among vegetables." A rather damning description perhaps, but given the rural nature of the setting completely appropriate, if not flattering, to the rest of the young ladies of Mellstock.

Peter wrote: "Deborah wrote: "Everyman wrote: "Peter wrote: "Dewey remarks that Fancy is "As near a thing to a spiritual vision as ever I wish to see." Those are words of high praise, and perhaps words too high ..."

I guess I'm not explaining this well, but she could have been a vegetable prior to leaving and become a flower on her return. We often miss what is in front of us until it is gone

Deborah wrote: "I guess I'm not explaining this well, but she could have been a vegetable prior to leaving and become a flower on her return. We often miss what is in front of us until it is gone
"

I think you're explaining it perfectly. And it makes perfect sense.

I was fascinated by Mr. Penny's discussion on shoes. Of course it would make no sense today when shoes are mass produced, but he obviously made them to order, starting by making a separate last for each of his customers (presumably two, one for each foot), and then modifying the lasts as the customer's foot changes from bunions or whatever. And to know who a corpse was related to from the shape of its foot.

Then there's this about Fanny's boot: "a very pretty boot it was. A character, in fact—the flexible bend at the instep, the rounded localities of the small nestling toes, scratches from careless scampers now forgotten--all, as repeated in the tell-tale leather, evidencing a nature and a bias."

Reminds me of nothing so much as Sherlock Holmes deducing all sorts of things about people from the most seemingly minor observations about them or their apparel. But to deduce her nature from the character of her boot I find a most interesting idea, and reflective of Hardy's focus on the smallest details of the environment he writes about.

Everyman wrote: "...to deduce her nature from the character of her boot..."

[Smile.] Like my reaction yesterday to the verve of a young teenager coming out of church with tall tan boots of fine leather in two shades of brown? And then a couple of hours later watching a petite fiftyish woman entering a library and wearing a similar fashion statement?

I paused at the possible meaning of this: "scratches from careless scampers now forgotten." Scampers of the owner? Or of small creatures where the boots might have been stored at night? Or...?

But I also paused a moment or two, thinking of the shoemaking trade and its stories in literature. Even in the seventies, New York and the suburbs had many shops for the repair of leather shoes. Now, I'd really have to search to find one. (The local clothes cleaners will send them someplace for repair.) Ferrante's My Brilliant Friend has shoemaker stories out of the 1950's in Naples. Dickens gives shoemaking a key role in A Tale of Two Cities. Today the U.S. has Bill Alford in Maine, Phil Knight in Oregon.

http://www.forbes.com/profile/bill-al...

http://www.forbes.com/profile/phil-kn...





Giacomo Francesco Cipper - In the shoemaker workshop.

I love how Hardy places down each piece of the path (to the novel's end), so purposefully. It's at least forty years since I've read this book, and I can't remember what happens, but already in Ch. 5 I feel foreboding. The Quire is making the rounds with "a Merry Christmas to ye" ringing in their ears "as it had for the last forty years" when "a roaring voice" calls "Shut up!" and a window slams. Only several paragraphs later, after the Quire has forgiven Mr. Shiner for being in his "worldly frame", not "religious frame", rested at the church and had "a hearty meal", Hardy draws our attention to "clockwork" over their presumably content heads: "...here lay the direct pathway of Time."

Oh yes, Hardy, I hear ye.

Peter wrote: "Fancy Day was described in Ch 7 as being "like a flower among vegetables." A rather damning description perhaps, but given the rural nature of the setting completely appropriate, if not flattering, to the rest of the young ladies of Mellstock."

Maybe it's not flattering to the other young ladies, but I think it's not wholly flattering to Fancy either. Overall, vegetables are more useful than flowers, which are pretty to look at but not necessary for survival. Does that make sense? Is Fancy only a pretty little thing, or has she become an accomplished young woman while she's been away? Is there more to her than her looks which has struck at least three men so far - Dick, Maybold and Shiner.

Nina wrote: "Overall, vegetables are more useful than flowers, which are pretty to look at but not necessary for survival. Does that make sense? "

It does, though I'm not sure it was what Hardy intended -- after all, a schoolmistress is a pretty useful person to a village. But it's an interesting thought.

But would you think it a compliment if it went the other way -- if somebody called you a vegetable in a field of flowers? [g]

One quick note on shoemaking, one can still get customized shoes the old way from Williamsburg, VA. Very expensive. But the craft is not yet lost.

Everyman wrote: "Nina wrote: "Overall, vegetables are more useful than flowers, which are pretty to look at but not necessary for survival. Does that make sense? "

It does, though I'm not sure it was what Hardy in..."

I probably wouldn't be too thrilled, no, even though some vegetables are also pretty to look at:) But so much has been made of Fancy's lovely exterior that I look forward to seeing what more there is to her.

And I'll join "the Quire" and praise Hardy's descriptions of nature, one of the things I love the most about him. There is so much love and knowledge in his descriptions and he evokes such vivid scenery that there is a part of me that wants to jump in a time machine and go back to his Wessex. Though I would like to be able to jump back to the present time again

Everyman wrote: "I had to go up to the shop Friday night, which was a dark and dreary night here. I have two choices (yes, this will become relevant!). One is to go up the gravel driveway, which curves left before ..."

I will think of this when I start reading tonight.

I'm glad the introduction of Fancy Day via her shoe has been mentioned as this was a device which struck me very strongly. And this isn't just a shoe, it's a boot. Shoes encapsulate feet, but boots already suggest ankles and ankles lead.... Gosh, well further up.
*Fans self energetically*
Dick himself, we are told, "surveyed it with a delicate feeling that he had no right to do so without having first asked the owner of the foot's permission".
Hot stuff. I think there can be no doubt that Fancy Day is going to introduce an element of sizzle into the gently simmering society of Mellstock.

Pip wrote: "Hot stuff. I think there can be no doubt that Fancy Day is going to introduce an element of sizzle into the gently simmering society of Mellstock.
"

My goodness. Thomas Hardy as Harlequin Romance writer? [g]

As someone who sings in a traditional church choir I was particularly amused by the scene on Christmas morning when the girls (lead by Fancy Day?) out-sing the boys and men and their instruments, much to everyone's horror. There is clearly a revolution afoot in the musical life of the church!

Does everyone know the hymn written out in chapter 4? If it is the same setting as I know (which is from the 17th century) it is one of my favourite advent carols-here is a great version:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNbQi...

I loved that first passage as highlighted by Pip, so evocative. I'm only two chapters in, but that first meeting in Reuben's home seems almost jovial for Hardy... Maybe I just remember the sadness of his other works.

Post 29 deleted - duplicate

Lisa wrote: "I loved that first passage as highlighted by Pip, so evocative. I'm only two chapters in, but that first meeting in Reuben's home seems almost jovial for Hardy... Maybe I just remember the sadness ..."

Funny, I was thinking about that first passage last night. Hardy ends with the word "individuality". (I think. I'm not looking at the post.) Does anyone have thoughts about what Hardy is trying to do here?

I do see the "joviality" at that first meeting being almost a superficial thing...that no one seems exposed or their real selves.

Thanks for bringing this scene up, Lisa.

I'm intrigued by how little we know about Fancy in terms of her family. Her father Geoffrey is mentioned but we don't really know what he does, he doesn't even come to the Christmas party. The other characters seem to be embedded in their village community through their trades and their families so it surprises me a little bit that the villagers (so far) haven't talked more about what her family is like and what their status in the village is. I was thinking about this partly because of the description of her in chapter VII:

"Her lips imitated her brows in their clearly-cut outline and softness of bend; and her nose was well shaped—which is saying a great deal, when it is remembered that there are a hundred pretty mouths and eyes for one pretty nose."

This seems like just a slightly whimsical description, but noses were serious business to the Victorians. A graceful nose (which didn't necessarily mean a small one, "aquiline" noses were preferred*) was considered not only a mark of beauty in women but one of being upper class and even virtuous. (Meanwhile Dick, who is from a good but working class / rural family, has a nose that's merely an "ordinary nose"). I'm hoping that as the story develops we get to find out more about her.

*If you look at some of the profiles of Queen Victoria on coins at the time, her nose is quite hooked in some although it's straighter in others, for example:

http://www.chards.co.uk/wp-content/up...

https://media.licdn.com/mpr/mpr/shrin...

Elizabeth II's nose is very straight and pretty small on all the coins I've seen.

Thank you for this bit about Victorian noses I took the description as pure whimsy.

Deborah wrote: "I enjoy Hardy's use of language...."

This is my first Hardy novel. (With the possible exception of Tess, but I don't remember it.) I confess to being a bit put off by the colloquial expressions, at least at first. My Kindle edition has very good notes that I can click on, but it definitely interrupts the flow for me. I'm sure it is a true representation of the time and place, but the characters seem a bit like caricatures to me. They seem like dancing figures in a series of paintings. Rotund, sweaty, apple-cheeked, comical imbibers.

I understand there have been books written about Hardy's language, so I am hoping I will learn to appreciate it more as we go along. I agree that the descriptions of nature are evocative.

I was interested in this comment by Hardy:

Mellstock was a parish of considerable acreage, the hamlets composing it lying at a much greater distance from each other than is ordinarily the case. Hence several hours were consumed in playing and singing within hearing of every family, even if but a single air were bestowed on each. There was Lower Mellstock, the main village; half a mile from this were the church and vicarage, and a few other houses, the spot being rather lonely now, though in past centuries it had been the most thickly-populated quarter of the parish. A mile north-east lay the hamlet of Upper Mellstock, where the tranter lived; and at other points knots of cottages, besides solitary farmsteads and dairies.

Lower Mellstock to the church is half a mile, then another mile to Upper Melstock. That doesn't seem to me to be a vast distance, but Hardy says, and he should know, that this is a "much greater" distance than ordinary. So he's suggesting that in the England of the time, hamlets/villages were normally closer than a half-mile or so. I had thought of villages or hamlets more spread out than that.

I should go look for maps of England in 1850 or so to see.

Everyman wrote: "...though in past centuries it had been the most thickly-populated quarter of the parish...."

Does he tell us "why" the demographic shift? I've sort of looked for clues in the text, but haven't spotted them.

Lily wrote: "Everyman wrote: "...though in past centuries it had been the most thickly-populated quarter of the parish...."

Does he tell us "why" the demographic shift? I've sort of looked for clues in the tex..."

I haven't seen it yet, but I'm assuming it's a result of the Enclosure Acts, which drove many peasants from the land, and the Industrial Revolution, which drew them into the cities and factories.

Everyman wrote: "Lily wrote:Does he tell us "why" the demographic shift? ..." Everyman wrote:...I'm assuming it's a result of the Enclosure Acts, which drove many peasants from the land, and the Industrial Revolution, which drew them into the cities and factories."

Okay. Makes sense. I just didn't fit that with the pattern Hardy described, but I think one could.

http://www.hardysociety.org/about-har... -- some nice info here, but the maps aren't large enough to show me the lay of the parts of Melstock. Ginny, when you are ready for a bit of foreshadowing on the thread of the novel, you especially might find the blurb on the UTGT of interest.

The Parish of Stinsford, Dorsetshire is the original Mellstock of Hardy's novels.

http://ukga.org/genuki/DOR/Stinsford/...

From this link you can access a variety of old through to present day map views (click for map); read an historic description of the town (description and travel)- scroll down this page for a brief description of the villages and hamlets of Stinsford and their distance from Dorchester. Could possibly give an idea of Hardy's Mellstock position?


This is a pretty good map
http://www.streetmap.co.uk/map.srf?x=...

You are quite right about the shift in rural population by this time being caused largely by the General Enclosures Acts of 1836/1845, Everyman. There had been many Inclosure/Enclosure Acts throughout the history of England, but it was the one of 1836 that had the greatest impact on society as it coincided with the major changes brought about by the Industrial Revolution.

Ella's Gran wrote: "The Parish of Stinsford, Dorsetshire is the original Mellstock of Hardy's novels.

http://ukga.org/genuki/DOR/Stinsford/...

From this link you can access a variety of old through to present..."

Great links. I love maps. (I'm a committed armchair traveler, never read a travel book without my Times Atlas of the World open on my bookstand, but sometimes the Net is even better.)

Ella's Gran wrote: "The Parish of Stinsford, Dorsetshire is the original Mellstock of Hardy's novels.

http://ukga.org/genuki/DOR/Stinsford/...."

Am loving the old map of the area. it shows a Roman Road running through the middle of the area -- wonder why Hardy hasn't mentioned it.

You can see several cottages where Hardy's birthplace cottage is, but it's not clear which one is his.

Pleased to see the info is of interest. I am really enjoying the writing style of Hardy and loving the story so far. I'm a little slow getting there since I keep about their lives at the time and that infernal why keeps interrupting! Hence I turned to my genealogy resources to try and get the picture.

The website, as you can probably see, is GENUKI. A very good site for genealogists giving information about parishes - very important in family research, but also useful for history purposes.

Everyman wrote: "a result of the Enclosure Acts, which drove many peasants from the land, and the Industrial Revolution, which drew them into the cities and factories. "

In other words, many of the characters we might have seen in Hardy's novels if the Agricultural and Industrial Revolutions hadn't occurred, have actually upped and left to appear in Dickens' novels instead ;-)

Ginny wrote: "I confess to being a bit put off by the colloquial expressions, at least at first. "

I am no fan of phonetic writing either when it comes to accents and voices in novels, and inwardly groaned when I first started UTGT. However, it's somewhat easier for me because I'm a West Country girl born in Bristol - "Brizzle"; my parents have lived in Devon ("Debn") for many years and we holidayed frequently in Dorset ("Daaarzet") as kids.

There's an interesting resource from the British Library with recordings of regional accents, many of them of older people who still retain elements of the accents that would have been present in Hardy's time. Here's an interesting one about how much cider was drunk by farm workers, among other things: http://sounds.bl.uk/Accents-and-diale.... The speaker was born in 1871, the year before UTGT was published.

The main page for the BL's Survey of Dialects is here: http://sounds.bl.uk/accents-and-dialects - if you scroll down and click on "D-F" and the "Dorset", you'll find a range of recordings.

The cider recording was very cool. I loved listening to the old guy speak, the tones so mellow. And the different vowel sounds from some of the questioners for comparison.

For me it's like the differences in the accents of the American South... Georgia vs Texas vs Virginia.

I'm loving the language used by Hardy and the discussion here which is really adding to the experience. Thanks all :)

Pip wrote: "Ginny wrote: "I confess to being a bit put off by the colloquial expressions, at least at first. "

I am no fan of phonetic writing either when it comes to accents and voices in novels, and inwardl..."

Pip

Thanks for the incredible resource.

Thinking about the incident of the girls outsinging the little band, it seems to have several underlying aspects. One is that obviously the old schoolmaster or mistress didn't encourage the girls to sing so loudly -- Fancy hasn't had time to teach them singing, so they must have known it but just been quieter about it. It seems to be an instance of significant disrespect for the older men in the parish who have been the center of the service (after the minister, of course) for many years. Was Fanny intentionally encouraging the young to replace the old? Was it just enthusiasm for music and she didn't think of the consequences? Was she an early feminist encouraging the girls to exert themselves instead of being blushingly maidenly? [Aside: why does spellcheck accept unblushingly but not blushingly?]

There seem to me to be lots of issues around this fairly simple seeming incident.

We talked earlier of the shift in population in rural areas of England as one of the changes brought about by the Agricultural/Industrial Revolutions. The effect of Fancy on the men in the village, along with the rousing chorus of singing from her girls on Christmas morning had me thinking here was a woman (feminist?) who is about to bring a phase of transition to the village. A more modern, liberal phase of society to country England - or part of.
Is that what Hardy intended bring to people in this novel?

Yes, Fancy could well be an early feminist. This was about the time the movement was getting underway, and Hardy could well have used it as a theme for this novel. It will be interesting to see how he develops that - pro or against - which will be his leaning.

Everyman as for the spellcheck not accepting blushingly, I can shed no light on that. It is obviously not in the thesaurus, yet the word is the adverb for blush!

Everyman wrote: "Thinking about the incident of the girls outsinging the little band, it seems to have several underlying aspects. One is that obviously the old schoolmaster or mistress didn't encourage the girls t..."

The young girls out-sing the band and Fancy apparently is much more attractive than the other girls in the area. There does seem to be a focus on women, and then a further categorization of the females in terms of physical appearance and education. So far the men are weak in comparison. It's early in the novel, yet a clear foundation seems to be forming.

Peter wrote: "So far the men are weak in comparison."

Oh, I don't agree, at least not yet. We mostly see Fancy from Dick's point of view, so we really have no objective look at her, but I don't see her as being as well defined or even as strong a character as, in particular, Michael, who insists on singing out at the farmer's place; “Give it him well; the quire can’t be insulted in this manner!”

That's not a weak man!