SA reads discussion

Hello everybody!

You all know John's plan as set out in the "planning" thread. Looking forward to hearing from you!

Hi all. This is my first blog post - an introductory one to get you warmed up about the reason we are doing ALWTF over the next two months:
http://www.johnmountford.com/a-long-w...

Awesome blog John!
For our non-SA readers, the term Rainbow Nation was coined by Archbishop Emeritus Desmond Tutu (referred to as The Arch)

Love the blog, John! Thanks for the info, Lisa!

Nice looking blog John!

This is a link to Qunu, the village where Mandela spent the happiest days of his life. Mvezo, where he was born, is not far from Qunu:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-...

I found it interesting that NM says that Xhosa children learn through imitation and not questions - not do as I say, but do as I do. Ancient truths that we have forgotten as parents - or is it just easier to tell children to obey, rather than giving them an example to follow? It is obvious that NM followed his father's example well, despite losing him at the age of nine. His father was proud, rebellious and stubborn - it cost the father his chieftanship, and NM his freedom.

Considering this aspect of Xhosa tradition, of children learning from example, it explains a lot of what we are seeing today. And it is scary too. A nation doomed to a ever spiraling generation after generation feeding off violence and aggression? (Looking especially at our youth league) We need something drastic to change the pattern. And that hopefully is NM's existence and the example he was to our nation.

Adele wrote: "Considering this aspect of Xhosa tradition, of children learning from example, it explains a lot of what we are seeing today. And it is scary too. A nation doomed to a ever spiraling generation a..."

Good observation, Adele. Yes, what was good in a rural/tribal setting, is not necessarily good in an urban environment. This is the tragedy of colonisation: colonised peoples are forced to abandon their traditional ways too suddenly, and what they replace them with are devastating, especially to the impressionable young. NM escaped that scenario as a young man due to his royal birthright, but most didn't. They became a lost generation of African youth.

Vicki wrote: "I read this book many, many years ago. More years than I care to admit. I am reading it again, slowly for this discussion. Reading it now, it has a completely different feel than it had years ago, ..."

Interesting. Knew I could count on you for some intrigue, Vicki. Out with it, but make sure you're not wearing your Ariel hat.

I'm not convinced that either way of child rearing is preferable.
Modeling (the Xhosa way) can be effective- this is how a grownup behaves in this situation. The draw back is who is modeling the behavior to be learnt and what are they modeling.
Learning by questioning encourages exploration- but what are the answers that are given? It takes lots of patience to answer these questions and it is easy to be impatient and yell at a quizzy kid, invalidating their curiosity.
I like the idea of a combination.

A combination is the ideal. We as adults may never forget our responsibility towards our children and that the example we set is key to their development. but also we need to fire up their need for knowledge so that they get exposed to more of the world than just what we as their immediate role models have to offer.

I have noticed that African children are exceptionally obedient, and I don't see them being spanked or physically disciplined in any way. There does seem to be something special about the respect an African child has for their elders. This is the result of their child-rearing practices as spoken about by NM. It seems to work well - certainly did with him.

This is my second blogpost to serve as a discussion point for Week One. It is entitled: 'DONKEY HONOUR'.
It highlights an aspect of NM's character that I believe was one of the biggest contributors to his being so universally respected, even by his enemies and jail warders.
Let's get talking.

http://www.johnmountford.com/donkey-h...

Lisa wrote: "I'm not convinced that either way of child rearing is preferable.
Modeling (the Xhosa way) can be effective- this is how a grownup behaves in this situation. The draw back is who is modeling the be..."

You express yourself well, Lisa. When are we going to get your first work of fiction?

NM was the perfect blend of diplomacy which made him respected by everybody, irrespective of race, age and gender. That is an incredible feat, not achieved by any other world leader that i know of.

I am aware that there are some younger members of our society that now states that NM became too soft. But these are again people that spread propaganda about violence and aggression and rebellion which is far from the ideal democracy south africans dream about. NM achieved a golden era on which south africa can build and grow.

What if NM had reacted with aggression and humiliation, instead of dignity and mutual respect? Would we be here now? If he had been aggressive, a very frightened South Africa would have fallen into civil war.

Yes Don, it is so that white families that have been present in south africa for 400 years will not be referred to Africans, but to this day they are known as whites or "boers"(farmers).

Buthelezi, as a zulu leader, i got to know as bring a good leader. Not a world leader, the way i saw NM, but also a very noble, gracious and respected man. Perhaps given the chance, he would have risen to great heights like NM, but alas, the zulu group and their political party was much more in the minority than their ANC/xhosa counterparts.

Don said:"Are Zulu and Xhosa lifestyles similar? NM tells us a lot about the Xhosa but does not talk much about the relationship between the Xhosa and other identity groups, was it all peace and harmony as he seems to indicate?"

NM was Xhosa. I think his idea was that all peoples should unite against apartheid. The initial focus was on black people, extending to the Indian and colored population and including even whites opposed to apartheid. My impression is that he focused on a common unifying goal, which was why his following was so large. I am unaware of other leaders accomplishing this.

If we group SA tribes according to language: the Nguni (including Zulu, Xhosa, Swazi & Ndebele) and the Sotho (including N & S Sotho and Tswana groups); Xhosa and Zulu have similar linguistic roots but the languages differ widely. Each tribal group has it's own unique practices and beliefs. Historically, there was conflict between these groups and whether this conflict exists today, I think depends on individuals. Apartheid grouped these diverse groups under one persecutory label. For me, although I've learnt and witnessed specific cultural practices of various groups; I can only claim the knowledge of an outsider.
Please someone correct me if I am wrong!

The African/ European distinction was an Apartheid device to separate along racial lines. The question of whether or not a white South African is considered African is tricky and depends on who you ask. Your comment is fair, if someone is born and raised in Africa, aren't they African?

Don wrote: "Lisa wrote: "What if NM had reacted with aggression and humiliation, instead of dignity and mutual respect? Would we be here now? If he had been aggressive, a very frightened South Africa would ha..."

Don,
Your questions are insightful and I will give you my opinion on the answers:

1) Buthelezi - I don't believe he could have achieved what Mandela did. He did not have Mandela's stature - largely because of his perceived co-operation with the govt. He also opposed sanctions against SA which was the final nail in his struggle-credential coffin. His support base was too localised and tribal, while Mandela was revered by all ethnic groups. At the moment his IFP party has lost more than 50% of its own Zulu support base to the ANC - proof enough of this, I think.

2) Zulu and Xhosa lifestyles are similar - they are both a part of the larger Nguni grouping that migrated from West Africa. They can understand each others language and as such are closer to each other than to any of the other ethnic groups in SA. There has always been enmity between the Zulu's and Xhosa's, being by far the two largest ethnic groupings - the Zulu's being the biggest. The Zulu's have always had something of a superiority complex and pride themselves on their warrior origins.

3) Africans, whites, Europeans - while I think NM used these as convenient labels for writing purposes, there is no doubt in my mind that whites or Europeans, no matter how long they have lived in SA, would ever be regarded as true Africans by black Africans. Colonialism, and its scars, are barely half a century old, and too raw to allow such magnanimity on the part of our fellow black brothers and sisters on a large scale. At best we are regarded as 'permanent residents', I believe.

4) Mozambique and Angola's liberation from the Portuguese was a great inspiration to the SA liberation struggle - in the early to middle days the ANC freedom fighters got most of their training and logistical support from these two countries. When the SA govt. began to squeeze Mozambique through sanctions, it was forced to expel the ANC, who then sought support further North in Zambia and Tanzania.

Don wrote: "Adele, Lisa, John - thank you very much for your patience in answering these questions. As someone without your knowledge of SA, contextual information like that which you have provided is invalua..."

I enjoyed the questions, they promote thought about what we experience in our everyday lives.

John wrote: "Lisa wrote: "I'm not convinced that either way of child rearing is preferable.
Modeling (the Xhosa way) can be effective- this is how a grownup behaves in this situation. The draw back is who is m..."

Thanks John, I hope my examiners think that, I've had cotton-wool brain all day

Your comments are all really making me wish my library would hurry up and get the copy that I ordered in! Alas, one of the few drawbacks to rural living!

Karlyne wrote: "Your comments are all really making me wish my library would hurry up and get the copy that I ordered in! Alas, one of the few drawbacks to rural living!"

O dear...
Mine's a kindle copy... The advantages of kindle

Lisa wrote: "Karlyne wrote: "Your comments are all really making me wish my library would hurry up and get the copy that I ordered in! Alas, one of the few drawbacks to rural living!"

O dear...
Mine's a kindle..."

I should have swiped my daughter's last week! Too late-she's gone home 500 miles away!

Hi everyone,
I read the book back in December, looking forward to participating in the discussion and reading all your comments.

As I read the first two parts of LWTF, I had to keep reminding myself that it was a true account and not a work of fiction. The rags-to-riches story of Mandela's youth, his experiences, and his running away to escape an unwanted marriage all seemed to come from the plot of a novel, and I am finding it highly interesting! It does not have the usual solemn feel of an autobiography, but rather reads like a story. I am enjoying it very much, and I appreciate all of your comments and insights!

Karlyne wrote: "Lisa wrote: "Karlyne wrote: "Your comments are all really making me wish my library would hurry up and get the copy that I ordered in! Alas, one of the few drawbacks to rural living!"

O dear...
M..."
Karlyne,
You can download the kindle app to your PC and read the kindle version there.

Although the Xhosa and Zulu people had a similar lifestyle, the Xhosas got the short end of the stick in the late 1700's and 1800's. Their territory was threatened by the colonists moving east along the coast from Cape Town (there were about 20 so called Border/Xhosa wars between the British and the Xhosas). In addition, the Zulus were expanding their territory south under uShaka and later Dingane. They lost a lot of territory in the process and had to accommodate other tribes affected by these shifts as well.

The Zulus have a reputation as fierce warriors (they did win some battles during the Anglo-Zulu war against the British armed mainly with spears after all). That reputation still exists. This iconic photograph of Ken Oosterbroek has what is effectively a Zulu impi marching in the background in 1993
http://picturenet.co.za/photographers...

Buthelezi never had the moral stature of NM. Here's a short summary of the state of affairs a month before the 1994 elections which also gives some background on Buthelezi during the apartheid years. Warning: the article contains graphic images of the Shell House massacre.
http://www.dailymaverick.co.za/articl...

Carolien wrote: "Although the Xhosa and Zulu people had a similar lifestyle, the Xhosas got the short end of the stick in the late 1700's and 1800's. Their territory was threatened by the colonists moving east alon..."

Thanks for that input, Carolien. It's the first time I have seen the Shell House images - reminder of terrible times. I think we have forgotten how bad it was. The struggle for power amongst the black parties was every bit as violent as the struggle against the government. Many at the time felt that this was a stain on Mandela's leadership.
http://allafrica.com/stories/20140401...

I now understand the significance of NM being buried in Qunu.

Blogpost No. Three: COLONIAL BLESSINGS

http://www.johnmountford.com/blog/

John wrote: "Karlyne wrote: "Lisa wrote: "Karlyne wrote: "Your comments are all really making me wish my library would hurry up and get the copy that I ordered in! Alas, one of the few drawbacks to rural livin..."

I would, John, but not only am I technologically dumb, but I like to read in the morning before I put my contacts in (when it's quiiiiiiet) and I can't get close enough to the PC without crippling myself for all time without them. To say that I'm near-sighted is to understate the case!

John wrote: "Carolien wrote: "Although the Xhosa and Zulu people had a similar lifestyle, the Xhosas got the short end of the stick in the late 1700's and 1800's. Their territory was threatened by the colonists..."

Have you read Birth by Peter Harris? It covers the run up to the election in a lot of detail.

Carolien wrote: "John wrote: "Carolien wrote: "Although the Xhosa and Zulu people had a similar lifestyle, the Xhosas got the short end of the stick in the late 1700's and 1800's. Their territory was threatened by ..."

Yes, I have. He writes well about the subject - almost has the feel of a work of fiction.

In a Different Time: The Inside Story of the Delmas Four is probably even better and I completely agree. You feel this could be fiction.

Carolien wrote: "In a Different Time: The Inside Story of the Delmas Four is probably even better and I completely agree. You feel this could be fiction."

I read that one too. Reads like a thriller! Looks like we have similar reading habits.

Another blog-post: WHAT'S IN A NAME?

http://www.johnmountford.com/blog/

Mandela's honesty about himself: he says that he enjoyed his friendships with women because he could confess his weaknesses to them - something he could never do with a man.
I wonder if this is normal for an African man - surely they would be even less likely to show vulnerability to a woman than a man? Is there anyone who has inside cultural understanding on this point?

John wrote: "Carolien wrote: "In a Different Time: The Inside Story of the Delmas Four is probably even better and I completely agree. You feel this could be fiction."

I read that one too. Reads..."

It looks like it. You must have read extensively to write your book.

I agree with you, John. I was just thinking how nicely Lisa described the pros and cons of both sides of the matter of child-rearing. I hope you are putting your talents at writing to good use, Lisa!John wrote: "Lisa wrote: "I'm not convinced that either way of child rearing is preferable.
Modeling (the Xhosa way) can be effective- this is how a grownup behaves in this situation. The draw back is who is m..."

John wrote: "Lisa wrote: "I'm not convinced that either way of child rearing is preferable.
Modeling (the Xhosa way) can be effective- this is how a grownup behaves in this situation. The draw back is who is m..."

The combination of names is interesting. A trouble maker ( Rolihlala) and a leader (Daibunga). I looked up Nelson, it's Celtic and means 'son of a champion'. Fairly prophetic combo, I must say.
I think that the system of giving an anglicized name was awful. A name carries an identity, stripping that name and identity is dehumanizing.
Reminds me of this poem:
afrolegends.com/2012/01/18/my-name-by...

Don, thank you for your willingness to ask questions as they enlarge the discussion and make us South Africans aware that our story exists in a bigger context which we perhaps forget or do not see from within our own borders. I thought your question about the struggle in Mozambique and Angola was fascinating and read John's response to it with great interest.Don wrote: "Adele, Lisa, John - thank you very much for your patience in answering these questions. As someone without your knowledge of SA, contextual information like that which you have provided is invalua..."

It's been really interesting catching up with all the comments so far. I wholeheartedly agree with Sarah that the beginning of the book reads like a rags to riches story. As a writer myself, I pay far more attention to the story aspect than to the historical facts, and so I would like to comment on the style of writing. It is remarkably easy to follow for a work of non-fiction. This, I think, says a lot about Nelson Mandela's perception of events. He does not just relate dates, names and actions, but delves into feelings, context and meaning. Admittedly, this makes it a personal view, but the way it is written invites readers to sympathise and agree with him in admiring his role models.

Lisa wrote: "I think that the system of giving an anglicized name was awful. A name carries an identity, stripping that name and identity is dehumanizing."

I agree with you, Lisa. African naming culture is very thoughtful and is such an integral part of the culture, from what I've seen and experienced. Anglicizing names is basically killing the culture, in my eyes.

John wrote: "I found it interesting that NM says that Xhosa children learn through imitation and not questions - not do as I say, but do as I do. Ancient truths that we have forgotten as parents - or is it just..."

I think NMs view of raising children works well for his place of birth. I've traveled and worked around the Qunu/Idutywa/Coffee bay area. It's just rolling hills and sky and a silence so great I makes your ears ring.

There's nothing to do but take inspiration for ones parents on how to live. There are cell phone stations and tv but not as many distractions as you find in the cities.
Parenting for those of us in urban areas is as much as matter of teaching by example as giving our kids random lists of 'don'ts'. I expect them to know a number of restrictions for every situation they are in, and so inevitably they question me, "why not cellphone?" And "why not Internet?". If don't question me it means they're it means they're not listening or hiding something! So a mix of both styles is required.

I've just started LWTF.
I found it ironic that NM was incensed by the actions of his college principal regarding the SRC election, and considered him to be dictatorial. Then when he went home for the summer, the regent announced the arrangement of his marriage in accordance with tribal law and custom.

Buck wrote: "I've just started LWTF.
I found it ironic that NM was incensed by the actions of his college principal regarding the SRC election, and considered him to be dictatorial. Then when he went home fo..."

So glad you could make it, Buck.
Yes, you make an interesting point here, even though to be fair Mandela did also reject the regent's 'arrangement'. However, I get the sense that NM's rejection was based more upon the unsuitability of the partner, more than questioning the infallibility of the regent. It would appear that the acceptability of undemocratic practices in Africa is often selective, and hidden behind the cloak of culture. If it is my culture to be dictatorial, then it is acceptable?

I made a comment in Week 2 about Mandela's seeming political confusion. Take a look and tell me what you think.

John wrote: "Buck wrote: "I've just started LWTF.
I found it ironic that NM was incensed by the actions of his college principal regarding the SRC election, and considered him to be dictatorial. Then when he..."

Read slow, Buck! My library really has ordered it, they say, and it's on its way...

Karlyne wrote: "Read slow, Buck! My library really has ordered it, they say, and it's on its way... "

I can't read slow!

I got mine from the library, too. I only have it for two weeks. I can renew it if nobody else puts a hold on it, but I'm sure I'll finish it before the two weeks are up.