North & South discussion

~ Episode Two, Part 2:
Starting with the doctor’s visit to the Hale’s, ending with me crying my eyes out. (Or ending with the most heart-breaking scene ever. Or with: “I do understand. I understand you completely.” Or just at the end of the episode. Take your pick).

I simply cannot believe that no one has yet visited this thread! I rather thought it should be quite popular!

Hopefully I can kick off a discussion. So, to start off with, I should like to know what opinion people have off Margaret's beseeching Thornton to go down and speak to the strikers, and of his... ah... attempt to do as she bid. I have a great deal to say on the subject, but I shall wait for someone else to show an interest in discussion before giving vent to my opinions. :)

I actually think Margaret did not do it because "she would do it for anyone else" but she just does not know it yet or is unable to admit it. :D

Well, I actually think she "would have done the same for anyone there", aside from the simple fact that at the time it was the strikers instigating the violence, and not Thornton. So it was Thornton - through necessity and because she had sent him down in the first place - who needed to be protected.

What do people think about this question: was Margaret right to send Thornton down to face them? I sort of struggle with that question myself, though I think whatever the answer is that Daniela did that part magnificently.

Oh, no, I was thinking about stepping in front if him. As to the part of asking Thornton to go talk to the strikers, I think she just wanted to prevent violence and make peace between both sides. And yes, Daniela did it magnificently. I really think she was the perfect choice for this role.

I did know that was what you meant - sorry if I wasn't clear in my reply. I meant to say that she protected him only because it was him that was the one that needed protecting, and because he was in the right - sort of - not being the one instigating the violence. And because it was her who put him in harms way.

That's one of the most powerful things about that scene, I think - seeing Margaret so desperate to make things right, seeming so strong, and yet unable to do anything to make it right, because neither side has any idea how to talk to the other. And then of course she is brought down by the stone, and seems so delicate and fragile then... Boucher should be so utterly ashamed of himself. And especially as he was blaming Thornton for her being hit with the stone! I wonder at any man daring to blame Thornton for Margaret being hurt, after seeing that awful, tortured, frightened, loving look on his face after she fell.

She was magnificent, and yes, she was perfect. I've never understood it when people say Daniela doesn't fit their image of Margaret. True that she doesn't exactly match the description of Margaret in the book, but the way she acts, so brilliantly, she truly does become Margaret. She just feels... right, in the role, I think.

They both do! Rarely am I so pleased with the choice of actors for the roles. It's like it was written for them. And I don't mean that because Richard is so smoking hot and with that voice that I swoon to :D

Does any one of you get an impression that Frederick is the better loved of the children (at least on Mrs. Hale/ Dixon's side)?

Yes, you are right, they were both stunningly perfect. Indeed, I think I heard Richard say in an interview once that when he heard about the audition for the role, he went to get the North & South novel, and he said that even just reading the role he knew he absolutely had to play Thornton. And how right he was! And, yes, not only because he is... ah... almost unfairly handsome, :P but for so many reasons. What a loss it would have been to the world to have anyone else.

On the topic of Frederick: hell yes! I think in the novel Dixon pretty much says outright that the two people she loves most deeply are Mrs Hale and Frederick. I do indeed think Frederick is better loved by Mrs Hale; and strangely, I think her love was only increased by their long separation. She never felt any anger towards him for the mutiny, and having Frederick absent for so long allowed Mrs Hale to build up that picture of her perfect son in her mind. Do you think I'm right, or am I talking nonsense?

Not at all. I could not shake that feeling everytime I watched the series, although only now I have put it to words. I don't know why she loves him more. Maybe because Margaret is such a strong personality that she is intimidated by it or maybe it's that classical mother - son, father - daughter story (I detest that!) :/

Indeed, I had that feeling quite a lot, too. I always find it a little sad, how much Margaret loves her family, and yet she is forced to see them all suffer, while perhaps knowing herself to be the least loved child of her mother. I don't doubt Mrs Hale loves Margaret deeply, but she doesn't have that idealised picture of Margaret that she has of Frederick, I believe.

I detest that classic picture of a mothers relationship too, but in some cases I cannot deny its truth. It occurs to me that the description could also apply to Mrs Thornton - her son is, of course, first in her eyes, by far. Not that I mind that, Thornton is very worthy of being first, and I love the relationship between the two of them. And despite accusations that she has neglected Fanny's education, Mrs Thornton and her daughter do have their own sort of rapport.

Just finished watching this episode: OMG!OMG! It get's me every time. So many feels and hard words in just one short scene.

John Thornton: Miss Hale, I didn't just come here to thank you. I came... because... I think it... very likely... I know I've never found myself in this position before. It's... difficult to find the words. Miss Hale, my feelings for you... are very strong...

Margaret Hale: Please! Stop. Pray, please don't go any further.

John Thornton: Excuse me?

Margaret Hale: Please don't continue in that way. It's not the way of a gentleman.

John Thornton: I'm well aware that in your eyes at least, I'm not a gentleman. But I think I deserve to know why I am offensive.

Margaret Hale: It offends me that you should speak to me as if it were your... duty to rescue my reputation!

John Thornton: I spoke to you about my feelings because I love you; I had no thought for your reputation!

Margaret Hale: You think that because you are rich, and my father is in... reduced circumstances, that you can have me for your possession! I suppose I should expect no less from someone in trade!

John Thornton: I don't want to possess you! I wish to marry you because I love you!

Margaret Hale: You shouldn't! Because I do not like you, and never have.

John Thornton: One minute we talk of the colour of fruit, the next of love. How does that happen?

Margaret Hale: My friend, Bessy Higgins, is dying.

John Thornton: And that of course, is my fault too.

Margaret Hale: I'm sorry.

John Thornton: For what? That you find my feelings for you offensive? Or that you assume because I'm in trade I'm only capable of thinking in terms of buying and selling? Or that I take pleasure in sending my employees to an early grave?

Margaret Hale: No! No, no, of course not. I'm... I'm sorry... to be so blunt. I've not learnt how to... how to refuse... how to respond when a... when a man talks to me as you just have.

John Thornton: Oh, there are others? This happens to you every day? Of course. You must have to disappoint so many men that offer you their heart.

Margaret Hale: Please, understand, Mr. Thornton...

John Thornton: I do understand. I understand you completely.

Margaret is deliberately making up awful reasons for his proposal trying to shame him and justify her dislike for him. Grrrrrrr

"I don't want to possess you! I wish to marry you because I love you!" - at this point I would shamelessly jump into his arms and kiss him senseless. But that's just me :D

Dammit Samanta - now I'm having to try terribly hard not to cry in the university library! Ah, that scene, that scene... Richard Armitage's performance is so unbelievably powerful, and Daniela also does extremely well. I love it how Thornton's gaze barely ever falters, but there are a few tiny instances where he lowers his eyes in nervousness, and it shows so clearly how he is feeling. And moments later that intense gaze comes back, so full of emotion I can barely stand it.

I don't think Margaret is deliberately making up awful reasons for his proposal, but rather she knows what they feelings of society must be about the events on the day of the riots. She is offended by such opinions and replies to those, I think barely listening to what Mr Thornton is actually saying to her. But how could one not listen? Good God, if anyone ever said such a thing to me in a voice half as passionate, or with an expression even half so desperate and afflicted by anguish, I would be so affected I would barely be able to speak. :'( Poor Thornton!

Also, the quaver in his voice when he speaks about what Margaret could possibly be sorry for, and he was he almost looks like he wants to cry... How could any woman be insensible to that?

I always wonder what on Earth Margaret could have been about to ask Mr Thornton to a understand. Those final words as he leaves the room, said with such a look in his eyes, are so, so powerful. I think it's only then that Margaret realises how much she may have actually hurt him, and that he may have been speaking the truth. *sigh* Why, oh why did Richard have to be so utterly brilliant in this role? My poor tear ducts just don't stand a chance.

I feel you! I am actually so angry at her right now. She does not have to love him or even like him if she does not want to...it's her right, but...but.... she shouldn't have put words in his mouth. If what you say is true, and she was offended by such opinions, she shouldn't have lashed at him. It's not his fault what society thinks. But then again, without it he wouldn't say such powerful words so I am inclined to forgive her. :D

I know, I always feel both sorry for her - knowing what ridicule she is potentially open to from society - and also very angry at her for the way she treats Thornton. I completely agree, what feelings she has are her choice and it is her right to have them, and putting words in his mouth so blatantly was bad enough. But to accuse him of such things as she did, when all he is trying to do is tell her how much he loves her! Really, it passes all imaginable bounds.

Haha, yes, that is one point in her favour - and it is only that combined with a sympathy for the situation she perceives herself to be in that allows me to forgive her - just a little. Though i don't think I'd have been able to forgive her if she refused to change her opinion of Thornton later.

The other part of this scene I find quite interesting is his talking about the fruit. Usually he is so practical in his speech, and his talking in such poetic terms does, I think, show both his nervousness and his heightened emotional state.

Also, lastly; how far do you think it's true, Margaret's saying that he has nothing to be grateful for?

I think that, in terms of putting herself in front of him, she honestly thinks that he has nothing to be grateful for because she did it from the goodness of her heart (because he was in trouble and she wanted to help him). BUT, I also think that in long-term he has to be grateful because, with her action, she opened his eyes on certain matters (even though the effect can't be immediately seen).

I know I said earlier that she did it for him but she doesn't know it yet, but I am honestly confused by these two :D :D

Oh, I've no doubt she believes he has nothing to be grateful for - but I think I only partway agree with her on that. It was indeed her that sent him down into harm's way, and therefore right that she should try to protect him. And I do also agree that she protected him on instinct, a selfless act coming from - as you put it - the goodness of her heart, and her distress at seeing each side of the debate so utterly unbending.

So, with all those reasons, perhaps Margaret is right to say that Thornton has nothing to be grateful for. But I completely understand why Thornton feels obligated to her; even if it were not so personal an act as he might have hoped, she did still save him, no matter what the reasons were. And she was hurt in the process, and therefore I think Thornton's wish to offer thanks and gratitude is quite reasonable. His obligation is not quite as "fancied" as Margaret makes it out to be, I believe.

Haha, it isn't hard to be confused by these two, is it? As I think I've heard someone else put it - "So many feels". :D That pretty much sums it up. I think it's true that Margaret's action was protecting Thornton more out of necessity (i.e. he was the one being threatened) rather than because of him, specifically, as a person. Which of course she rather bluntly explains, when she says: "I would have done the same for any man there." Oh, you cruel girl, Margaret, even if you don't know it.

I think I said those words....it is regularly used with Doctor Who fans (I am one :)) so it just became part of my way of expressing. :D

Poor Thornton, he said to his mother that a woman like Margaret would not want him and yet, he can't help hoping that her actions come from romantic feelings for him.

I ask myself if she would have done the exact type of 'saving' if it had been Slickson or Watson. And I think she would have tried to stop violence in any case BUT there is an extra sense of terror in Margaret's reaction with it being Thornton.
But, you see, the point is moot. Neither of those other men would have gone done to face the mob like John did. The other masters would have dismissed Margaret as a young chit of a girl who had no business telling a master what to do.
That Thornton responded to Margaret's heartfelt plea is the beautiful thing in this scene. He listens to her. (And always has). With him, she has a voice; she is heard.
No one else seems to be paying attention to her in this whole show, let alone actually listening to what she says. Thornton does. I think Margaret is affected by this, whether unconsciously or not. She speaks her mind to him partly, I believe, because she has the feeling he will listen. I don't think she would have bothered to argue with any other master like she did with Thornton in the earlier tea scene.
I just love to examine the almost unspoken dynamic between them, which is highlighted in this intense moment. Their communication with each is fervent, open and direct. He listens to her!
Sorry to go on and on, but I think their relationship is developing beautifully even now.

Beautifully put, Trudy. I think you're right. Margaret and Thornton respect each other and he's open to listening to another viewpoint. I always wondered why he just didn't say to the workers "Look, you want higher wages right? Do you want higher wages now and die of cotton lung tomorrow or do you want to continue working for me at your present rate and live?" That would probably make him appear weak and unmanly or something but it seemed like the most practical thing to do.

Margaret's behavior towards him in the first proposal scene was utterly beastly. How could she be so cruel?

Qnpoohbear wrote: "Beautifully put, Trudy. I think you're right. Margaret and Thornton respect each other and he's open to listening to another viewpoint. I always wondered why he just didn't say to the workers "Look..."
Thanks. I've been discussing and considering N&S for several years and have learned a lot. There's so much to this story, I'm still not finished examining it!

Where's the thread for that rejection scene?! Lol. I know why Margaret was so vehement. It's a compounded answer.

@Samanta: Well, it was a very succinct way of expressing it, in any case. :D And yes indeed, poor Thornton. I can hardly bear to watch that scene between Thornton and his mother. Not only because Mrs Thornton is so desperately sad at the thought of losing him, but because of that tiny spark of hope in Thornton, almost overwhelmed by his conviction that hope in this instance is groundless. :'(

@Qnpoohbear: That probably would have been the most practical thing, but I think you'll agree his actually talking to them at this point would have been pretty far out of character. Besides, I don't think he really knows how. It also would have been odd, after six weeks of holding out on them.

@Trudy: Wow. There is absolutely no better way to express what you just said. I like to think that Margaret in her desperation to help may have asked the same thing of Hamper or Slickson, but not quite in the same passionate way - the intense, unique dynamic between Thornton and Margaret allows her to express herself, because, as you said, she knows that with him she has a voice, and he will listen to her.

You're perfectly right in that none of the other masters would have even twitched, faced with such a request as Margaret's to Thornton. Personally I love the look that comes over Thornton's face as Margaret pleads with him to go down to the strikers: again, as you said, his silent response to her is utterly beautiful.

This scene really is emotionally intense, isn't it? Everything about it was so perfectly done, down to the tiniest detail. Don't get me started on Thornton's reaction to Margaret's fall, or you'll never stop me. I will try to restrain myself on that point, for now at least.

Now, question: does anyone else find it vastly unfair that Boucher blamed Thornton for Margaret getting hit with the stone?

Boucher was a weak man and a coward. He had to blame Thornton because he couldn't blame himself.

Qnpoohbear wrote: "Boucher was a weak man and a coward. He had to blame Thornton because he couldn't blame himself."

Very true - I do have some sympathy for him, but especially in this instance, Boucher really, really disgusts me.

In regard to Margaret's rejection, I think she was actually battling her attraction to him. It's one element of her vehemence in rejecting him. As someone once pointed out, why does she run away from him as he practically chases her around that blasted table?
I think it's because she's terrified of the passion coming from this man, and she's distancing herself (not quite trusting her own feelings) from this outpouring. She's not ready to deal with this!
She's spent all the previous day and night feeling mortified by Fanny's husband-catching comments and the knowledge that she made a spectacle of herself by shouting at the crowd and throwing herself at Thornton. She's bristling with self-defense before he even speaks! And she's so bent on justifying her actions as having been something she would have done for any man (yeah, right), that she's not really processing the possibility that he is fervently in love with her.
It's horrible timing for Thornton to declare his love. (He never mentions marriage in the book.) She's just not ready to deal with how he makes her feel. It's too scary for her. He is not anything like model man a Southern gentleman's daughter should ever be attracted to! She's really very confused because he does have an affect on her.
It's only after he leaves that she begins to confront her own feelings.

Trudy wrote: "In regard to Margaret's rejection, I think she was actually battling her attraction to him. It's one element of her vehemence in rejecting him. As someone once pointed out, why does she run away fr..."

That is very true, but I think the attraction stems from the fact that they are both strong, passionate people, and they respond to that quality in each other, recognising it even as their opinions clash with such intensity. I do think she is a little afraid, and you're right, not at all ready to deal with such a man as Thornton being so in love with her. Henry was easier to deal with; he was predictable, and relatively insipid, and there weren't any complications tied up in his offer to her. Whereas Thornton... way complicated, to say the least.

Though I think the comments she throws at Thornton are extremely unfair, as is the fact that she doesn't listen to him in the slightest, I can understand where her overpowering need to defend her conduct came from. However, I do believe that at the time she refused his proposal, Margaret wasn't attracted to most aspects of Thornton's character, and quite possibly would have protected another man had such an action been necessary. Of course, that gets a bit chicken and egg - I don't think she would have protected Hamper or Slickson, but there would never be any need to, because they are both slimy cowards who would never go down to the strikers as Thornton did.

After Thornton leaves, I don't think she so much considers her own feelings as the injustice she may have done towards his. His manner of leaving makes her realise how deeply she has hurt him, and Margaret's only regrets in so harshly refusing him stem from her good heart. She is sorry because she would never want to so deeply injure anyone, but in her regret she does not - I think - consider whatever attraction she may have had towards him.

They're attracted to the good in each other. Margaret likes his innocent smile, the respect he has for her father, the way he humbly admitted to having worked in a draper's shop, the fact that he is grateful for the lessons in dignity, self-determination, and economy that his mother began in him at a great time of trial. She notices the way he is looked up to by all the other masters. She really does admire a lot about him. I'm not saying she's in love with him, but there's a lot she is admiring in him before we even get to the riot and the proposal. That's why I believe she been doubly determined to label him as a heartless master - it keeps him at arms length! She is attracted to all his good qualities but she's trying to keep in focus his 'bad' side.
When she says 'I don't like you...and never have' she is talking about his position, not as a man. Who she thinks he is with all her prejudices firmly held up to prop her depiction of him.
But all her constructed defenses and accusations fall apart on her after he leaves. Maybe she's still not looking into her emotions exactly at that moment, but she is left wondering what all that powerful emotion stirred up between them was all about! It still reverberates around the room after he's gone. She knows he has a heart, and it's very profound and passionate!
I think she feels instant remorse, yes. Daniela's face is priceless here. But I also see a thunderstruck bewilderment. She's finally starting to 'get it.' Poor girl, just a mite bit too late!!

I believe you are right, in that Margaret does admire a great deal about Thornton, but there is also some genuine dislike present, in that for a long, long time she is utterly incapable of separating his position and his character in her mind. Indeed, she does not love him, but I concede her admiration towards some - if not all - aspects of his personality. I don't think Margaret undertakes a conscious effort to think badly of poor Thornton - it is perhaps an unconscious decision, created by the indomitable strength of both their characters and their opinions, and the resultant tension in all aspects of their relationship.

I think when Margaret says she does not like Thornton, she believes she is talking about him as a man, at least, but you are right in that her dislike is more based around her prejudice against his position. But we must remember at this point, Thornton still has some character development to go through in terms of unbending a bit as a master, and Margaret probably still thinks him a little unkind, among other things.

Oh yes, as soon as he leaves, her accusations completely fall apart, as Thornton's pain from her refusal is borne in upon her. Indeed, I think the silence in the room after he leaves is so telling, the memory of such intense passion so incredibly strong. That silence, coupled with Thornton's parting words, make Margaret feel instantly how sincere he had been in offering his heart to her, and with what cruelty she had so severely misjudged his feelings. It would be enough to make anyone feel remorseful, and Daniela certainly does show all Margaret's remorse and confusion excellently. The moment Thornton leaves that room is the very beginning of a long journey for Margaret, towards understanding, accepting, and finally loving who Thornton really is, rather than disliking who she thought he was.

Oh the proposal... How I feel for him. You have pretty much covered the scene well!

and I would have kissed him after such a declaration as well!

Soph wrote: "Oh the proposal... How I feel for him. You have pretty much covered the scene well!

and I would have kissed him after such a declaration as well!"

... Is there any girl watching North and South who wouldn't kiss Thornton after that? :P Actually, I can answer that I know of at least one girl who wouldn't. I have a friend in whom I'm trying to instil a sense of romanticism, and I'm failing miserably. I thought "If this scene doesn't touch her, what will?" And you know what her response was to the scene: "The girl was far too sassy, I liked Richard Armitage, and it was... kinda sad, but not really in a romantic way." *despairing facepalm* I give up.

I love this conversation. Sorry for butting in here!! Do any of you believe in love at first sight? Because I think that the moment Margaret saw Thornton - even though he wasn't in quite the most romantic situation then - she loved him. Or at least had a heart for him, in some way.

No need to apologise for "butting in", as you put it. :) I do believe in love at first sight - sort of - but I really don't think thats the case here. I do think there was an instant connection between them, an intense chemistry that was bound to come to a head in some way. They're both such strong people, and even in positions of such opposition, I think they recognise and respond to the strength in each other.

I think you're exactly right. I think they're both very determined and somewhat stubborn people. Perfect for each other. Yes, I think the first time Margaret sees him is when they kind of lock onto each other.

Thanks. :) They do kind of "lock on" to each other, don't they? You get the feeling that each is always in the back of the others mind. And then of course, there's their next meeting outside the mill... How intense that was! Much as they antagonise each other much as they might sometimes misjudge each other, every time they meet, their strength of character and conviction is always brought out by the presence of the other. They are so perfect for each other, as you say. <3 :)