North & South discussion
Group Watch, March 2014
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Episode 1: Part 1
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(Why are you writing in parenthesis?!) :D
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Right then, I know there's a lot we could discuss in this episode, but I'm going to start off by asking: Does anyone have any ideas about how the overseer and that other guy knew so much about Mr Hales reasons for leaving Helstone? Was it Mr Bell that told Thornton about the reason, maybe?
Perhaps it was Mr. Bell. He seems to like to gossip and cause trouble or it could have been gossip passed on through the grapevine. I love the stark bleakness of Milton and the cotton coming down like snow. It's a major contrast to the green of the South. It shows Margaret's thoughts and feelings without us being told.
I also love when Margaret stands up to the men and informs them SHE is the one making the business decision about the house and SHE prefers to speak directly with this Mr. Thornton.
Do you think Margaret judged Thornton unfairly? I don't think she did. I know what Boucher did was terribly wrong and why Thornton was so angry but did he have to resort to using his fists?
Becca.....If it was Mr. Bell who told Thornton the reasons for leaving the Church, I don't think he told it to anyone, much less his overseer (except maybe his mother). If he did tell his mother (which he most likely did), the servants (and Fanny!) could have heard and you know how that works. :)Qnpoohbear....It was Stevens who was smoking in that scene (the sleazy bastard)and I think he deserved what he got because he knew better than to smoke in a cotton factory, he just didn't care. I never really could feel simpathy towards him no matter Thornton's way of dealing with it. But, for Margaret, who seldom (if ever) saw such behaviour it was enough to form an opinion of him. I think she was already slightly prejudiced against Milton people because of its stark difference to "paradise on Earth" and seing Thornton pummeling Stevens did not help.
@Becca- I wouldn't doubt that Mr. Bell told Thornton why Mr. Hale decided to leave Helston. If that was the case, someone could have easily overheard & started gossiping about it.@Qnpoobear- I love that part too -- when Margaret is checking out the house.
I think she did. She didn't know all the circumstances, after all. I'll admit it did seem a bit much to beat Stevens the way Thornton did, but I can understand how he would easily lose his temper over such a thing. I mean, the whole place could have burned down & killed a lot of people! And Stevens knew that could happen, too.
@Samanta- I agree. The place & situation was so foreign to Margaret that it would be easy for her to form a very bad opinion very quickly. If I remember correctly, everyone from Milton seemed to believe that Stevens deserved what he got. But they all knew what the consequences could have been.
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Also notice that it clearly wasn't the first time he had been caught smoking for Thornton says he had warned him. So it was his own fault.
Margaret was definitely prejudice against the north and so from her first impression of Thornton - beating someone up - she was prejudice against him from the start.
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On the topic of Mr Bell:
I agree with all of you that Mr Bell would have had some part in getting the topic out to the Milton gossips. And I think Samanta and Aery, you are probably right: he would have tried to be relatively discreet about it, but someone was sure to have overheard. That seems to me to be the most likely explanation, anyway. :)
On the topic of Margaret's prejudice:
@Qnpoohbear: I think Margaret's original judgement of Thornton - considering her background and lack of knowledge about the events - was completely justified. However, I think her continuing prejudice and judgement of Thornton was completely unjustified, once she heard the reasoning behind his conduct.
@Samanta: It always makes me laugh every time I see you call Steven's a "sleazy bastard"! :D Anyway, as to the issue at hand, I too have very little - if any - sympathy for Stevens. But it is true that Margaret was justifiably shocked, due to the stark difference between the lovely South and witnessing a beating in the cold, dark rooms of a Northern factory.
@Aery: You see, that's why I have so little sympathy for Stevens - he fully knew that his smoking could cause the whole mill to burn down! So you know what, Thornton, go ahead, lose your temper, it's so justified. A little harsh perhaps, but I'd rather that than everyone die in a fire.
@Soph: I hate to quibble, but am I wrong in thinking it was 300 corpses, rather than 200? But in any case, yes, his behaviour was justified, and in fact backed up by the other inhabitants of Milton. And as you say, Stevens had been warned! I think Samanta pretty much hits the nail on the head, calling Steven's a sleazy bastard. I mean, really, what a selfish idiot; as you say, completely his own fault.
Random Topic:
Right, now another question to put to everyone: what do you all think of Margaret and Higgins conduct upon that first meeting out on the walk? Was either of them more at fault than the other, or can any rudeness be simply excused as a cultural misunderstanding?
Ugh, now I have to go to work and can't write. See you later :)
Becca wrote: "am I wrong in thinking it was 300 corpses, rather than 200?"You're not wrong, Becca. I just watched it a few hours ago & noticed that too -- it was 300.
RE: Margaret's PrejudiceI think she kinda had a hard time re-thinking her opinions. She knew she wasn't right about him (at least not totally), but she had a difficult time admitting it & changing her view of him. Or is that just me imagining things..? ;P
RE: Stevens
You know, Thornton said that he had warned Stevens, but I had to wonder what/how he had warned him. Was it just "No more smoking"? Or did he warn him that he would get a beating & lose his job? *shrug* Just a thought...
RE: Margaret & Higgins
I'm assuming you mean when he "rescued" her? Or do you mean when she met him officially when she was talking to Bessie?
Anyway, I think they just misunderstood each other at first. Neither of them was really sure what to think of the other. They both had prejudices...
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I think she kinda had a hard time re-thinking her opinions. She knew she wasn't right about him (at least not totally), but she had a difficult time admitting it & changin..."
Thank you for confirming that number, I was relatively sure I had it right. :)
RE: Margaret's Prejudice
I don't think you're imagining things... not completely, anyway. :P I think it did take her a little (or a long) while to get past her anger and prejudices and realize that she had perhaps misjudged him, but once that happened she did slowly allow him more and more proper consideration. She never woke up one morning and went "Hey, this guy's actually kinda nice!" It all came on very slowly, her recognition of what he was really like. So what am I trying to say here? I guess I'm trying to say that at least in the beginning, she felt justified in her opinion, but at some point, yes, she does start to realize her opinions have been a little off and does have a hard time trying to change them.
RE: Stevens
Good thought, actually! Thornton tends to be rather firm, so I would say that Stevens' initial warning would have been decidedly firm - but not as explicit as "Stop smoking, and if I catch you again I'll beat you up and kick you out." However, I assume that the workers know what kind of master they were dealing with, Thornton always keeps a firm line on any of his policies. Another thing that just occurred to me; I wonder if anyone else had ever been caught smoking? Then of course Stevens would know the consequences, but one would assume that would have been enough to dissuade him from testing the limits of Thornton's patience...
RE: Margaret's & Higgins
Ah, pray forgive my lack of clarity: I meant when she met him officially - I think that scene when he rescues her is rather sweet, actually.
But when they "officially" meet, I just sometimes think that perhaps Bessie and Nicholas were a little hard on Margaret. I mean, she was only trying to do what was considered polite where she came from. I do agree, however, that each had a little trouble figuring out how to respond to the other.
I agree with you Becca on Margaret and Higgins' scene. It was a clear case of cultural misunderstanding. But, luckily, it turned to a beautiful friendship. :)
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According to the book, Mr Bell explained to Thornton the reason for Mr Hale's coming to Milton. And John was particularly interested in helping someone who has made such a conscientious decision. I doubt Thornton related much to Williams (overseer), but the snide gossip in the mini-series was put in to show how others would generally judge Mr Hale. It's a great contrast to show how much John respects Mr Hale despite what others might consider a less than commendable choice. John never cares what others think, he thinks for himself. I love that about him. (Margaret, too, really. She shouldn't really be befriending Bessy according to social rules, but she does.)
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When Margaret first meets Bessy and Higgins while on her walk, I think they were a bit unkind to her. Both parties could have been more polite. She sort of trying to make friends. I'm sure she considered the farmers in Helstone her friends. They were teasing but she was a stranger in a different culture. She was a clergyman's daughter and used to helping the poor. They could have been more polite about it, but I think their flip comment about having nothing to put in the basket, was said because they felt a blow to their pride. They thought she was being haughty and snobby and didn't want her charity. It's all about pride and prejudice!
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@Soph: No worries! I just wanted to make doubly sure. But yes, basically tons of dead bodies, you're right, I don't suppose the number matters overly.
@Qnpoohbear: That's how I feel about it. I know the Northerners are proud people, so Bessie and Nicholas' rebuff was understandable, but I always feel so bad for poor Margaret, trying to make friends in the only way she knows how, and being received in such a way as to cause her to feel embarrassed, at the very least.
@Becca: Does anyone have any ideas about how the overseer and that other guy knew so much about Mr Hales reasons for leaving Helstone? It has been a while since I read the book and I’m wondering if it’s in there or if it was added because I want to say, in answer to your question, that they knew because it was a way of informing the audience why the Hales left their home, since there was no explanation before that. It just felt slightly contrived, but it did give us an opportunity to see what Margaret is made of.
@Qnpoohbear “I love the stark bleakness of Milton and the cotton coming down like snow. It's a major contrast to the green of the South.” I agree completely!
Margaret's Prejudice/ Stevens
Is it prejudice? Should we overlook violence because we know the sort of man Thornton is, rather than say his motives were right but his actions went too far? Everyone but Margaret knew what Stevens had done, expected and approved of Thornton’s punishment but because Margaret has a fresh perspective she challenges that position. She does have a hard time coming to terms with it because she still believes that the methods employed in the North are too harsh and that there is a better way… and there is, but both sides have to change to make it work.
Random Topic: Margaret and Higgins
I think Margaret came over as condescending but Higgins and Bessie knew that she was out of place and trying to make friends so instead of telling her where to go, they teased her, and after letting her know (a little bluntly, but that’s how Higgins is,) how what she was saying would be received, they invited her to visit. There is a little cultural clash going on but I don’t think it’s meant unkindly.
Becca wrote: "Ah, pray forgive my lack of clarity: I meant when she met him officially - I think that scene when he rescues her is rather sweet, actually.Oh gosh, I just re-read my reply & realized that I worded it wrong. I figured that's what you meant & was replying accordingly, but my reply comes across the wrong way around. Meant to edit that before I posted, but I forgot. :P
Louise wrote: "Random Topic: Margaret and Higgins I think Margaret came over as condescending but Higgins and Bessie knew that she was out of place and trying to make friends so instead of telling her where to go, they teased her, and after letting her know (a little bluntly, but that’s how Higgins is,) how what she was saying would be received, they invited her to visit. There is a little cultural clash going on but I don’t think it’s meant unkindly."
She probably did... though she meant well.
I agree, Louise. :)
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She annoys the hell out of me to (as you could see in my notes). She should be cultured because of her status and education she must have received but her comments are just spiteful...and towards her sister (which is even worse). I always thought that the Ton gave itself alot of liberties because of its status.
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The one other time - not in this episode, however - that Aunt Shaw utterly pisses me off, is when she comes to collect Margaret from Milton, and says "Oh my dear, how you have suffered, and what sorrows your father's brought you!" Gosh, that line makes me so, so angry; how dare she speak ill of dear, sweet Mr Hale, in front of Margaret, when her father has just died?! Honestly, of all the indelicate, tactless, cruel things to say...
I completely agree with you about that other part. I just think it's ill-breading because they were taught that they can say anything because they are "better" than other people.
I totally agree. From her first appearance at the beginning of episode 1, I could tell I would never like Aunt Shaw. And when she said that to Margaret about Mr. Hale... Makes me so mad!!My niece's reaction -- "Oh my gosh! What a jerk!"
As for Margaret & Henry... The first time I watched N&S, I knew absolutely nothing about it. I almost instantly disliked Henry. I remember pausing the movie & telling my sister "Please tell me they don't end up together! 'Cause if they do I'm turning it off right now."
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:D Aery, I think I should love to watch N&S with your niece. I'm sure we would agree on a number of topics, and it appears that your niece expresses such feelings in a very concise way!
Oh, I totally would have turned it off if they had got together though I do sort of like the dynamic they have in the first scene. Having said that, I seriously think that Henry needs to go and look up whatever the Victorian version of a list of pick up lines is, because "I think you look very well" really doesn't do it for me.
What does everyone else think of Mrs Hale in this episode? I think you all know she irritates me a little, but I'd like to know other peoples opinions. :)
As annoying as she is, I don't think Aunt Shaw means to be unkind, she's just oblivious to other peoples feelings.
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Oh, no, for the most part I don't think she means to hurt the feelings of others, but she is staggeringly insensible, is she not?
Yes definitely! To be honest, Margaret seems to be the only member of her family that cares for anything outside her own feelings.
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That's true, but at the same time he made a huge decision to uproot them all based on his own feelings without even talking it through with his wife. He must know Margaret is feeling bad but he wants to believe it's all ok... and the worse things get the more he seems to shut himself away.
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Re Aunt Shaw: she is a tricky character, but I would say that the worst of her is her thoughtlessness. She oversimplifies the world and thinks she has cut to the heart of the matter when in reality she has no imagination and no sympathy.But
She did what she was supposed to - being a pretty yet impoverished young lady, she married wealth. She was happy enough with her daughter, and kind enough to help her sister by taking charge of Margaret's education and upbringing. Again, she did precisely what she was supposed to. Mrs. Hale, on the other hand, did not - she married for love - and perhaps Aunt Shaw is a bit jealous of that freedom and the happiness she thinks must be the result. Being jealous leads her to make such a slightly cutting remark.
But the book is very different from the series here - since Maria doesn't even attend the wedding, for want of a dress, and since the series doesn't do much to mention that Margaret was mostly brought up with Edith and thus by Aunt Shaw, it is hard to see series Aunt Shaw as anything but an insensitive busybody.
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I think the difference in this case between the book and the series is due to the fact that the series needed to be succinct. I mean, the book takes about eighty pages to get to Milton, while the series takes all of ten minutes. They needed to establish the characters and backgrounds of quite a few people within that very short space of time - including Maria, Edith and Aunt Shaw - and therefore having Maria attend the wedding was probably the right decision, in terms of showing where everyone stood in regards to everyone else. But I do admit that quick, sharp portrait painted of Aunt Shaw in the series makes it very easy to forget that she took Margaret under her wing in London.
Re Margaret and Henry's relationship: Juxtaposing this topic with Aunt Shaw makes me wonder if there is a parallel here: Margaret certainly would be making a good match if she married Henry, for money or the future potential of money although not for love. Which would Aunt Shaw-like I think. M would be leveraging her youth and beauty for a secure home.Now, to be fair to series Henry, he wants to marry Margaret knowing she is Edith's poor relation. He may not be her choice but he isn't greedy and he appreciates Margaret's intellect. Of course, Henry would expect strict adherence to social rules, and probably a bit of intellectual deference. Ew.
But although series Henry has got some things going for him, his nasty blaming Margaret for him getting the wrong idea about her feelings is really what makes me dislike him.
I agree, Becca. The series needed to cut that whole section and having the Hales both attend the wedding and leaving out Margaret's childhood was the best way to get to the action. I really wish they could have found a way to get in the scene with the group of ladies draping Margaret with Edith's wedding gift shawls, though. It's so Mansfield Park -y and gives so much of the characters' personalities at once.
Anyway, since I found myself feeling like Margaret was a bit of a busybody this viewing, I feel like you can see she got that from Aunt Shaw as a surrogate parent!
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I think there probably is a parallel - good spotting - and I think it's interesting that Margaret in a way follows her mothers example, when really her and Maria are very, very different people. But then again, Margaret really is too strong a person to marry for security - indeed, casting my mind forward in the series, she is disgusted at the idea she would marry Thornton because he is rich.
I think it's really interesting, he reply to these proposals. While both men are quite well off, her reply to Henry is rather more gentle than her reply to Thornton: with Henry, her emotions are rather less intense and she is more easily able to see his proposal stems from affection, so she lets him down gently. But her relationship with Thornton is far more fraught, and she realised people will expect her to marry him out of duty or greed, and so she responds with vehemence, less able to see Thornton's true affection for her. Though how she couldn't see it in that scene is astounding, really.
I too dislike Henry's blaming Margaret for his misapprehension: it's very unfair, not to mention snooty of him to say that a London girl would never talk that way. But I also dislike his insipidity, and his capacity for spiteful remarks, in the series at least.
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Thanks, Kate, :) I'm really quite glad they did, actually, because the story really does pick up when they reach Milton! It's lovely to read about Helstone, but having that translated to screen would have done my head in completely. That part is rather Mansfield Park, isn't it? It would have been cool to see, but perhaps a little out of place in view of the speed with which the series moves the story to Milton.
I know what you mean, and she is a teensy bit, but I never really see her as a busybody. She just functions as best she can with her own cultural upbringing, and struggles to learn to act differently, which is sometimes a little sad, I think. And what sometimes seems like her being a busybody is actually just her desperation to learn, to make sense of what is around her.
Margaret is the only sensible character, that's why she's our heroine. The other characters in the scene represent their social class. I don't think Aunt Shaw meant to be unkind, she was just making a statement that most women of her class would make. It's Maria who takes it to heart because she knows she's unhappy and poor. Henry too is a man of his time. He's a complex character because he does appreciate Margaret and I think he is fond of her in his own way, but he doesn't truly care about her or respect her in the way that John will come to. They could never be equal partners. I found Henry very slimy when he stalked Margaret all the way to Helstone claiming she led him on and how dare she refuse his proposal. "A London girl..." well, in this version, she's NOT a London girl so why should she have London manners. It was just insulting and belittling to her for not being a ditzy London flirt.
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Oh, I think it's a little harsh to say Margaret is the only sensible character - many other characters have a great deal of sense, and even Margaret can be blinded by anger and prejudice, as we know. But it's probably fair to say that Margaret is the steadiest character, and is more often sensible than quite a few of the other characters.
I agree with your thoughts about Aunt Shaw, I think. :)
Ah, Henry just pisses me off, sometimes. I agree that he did care for Margaret in his own way, but his care was nothing next to Thornton's love for Margaret. Nothing at all. I think saying that Henry stalked Margaret to Helstone is probably coming it a little too strong, but his way of going about things was certainly a little disquieting. And that London comment after his proposal... Ah, I just want to slap him! Goodness, Henry, if you want a typical, shallow, flirty, normal London girl, actually go and find one! Why the hell are you even proposing to Margaret, so far removed from a London girl? Grrrrr.
I think Henry can't help but propose to Margaret. He wants her yet he doesn't fully understand her or love her. He just can't know her because they're too different in their upbringings and outlooks. He may think, like Mr. Collins, that "no" means a maidenly modest "I'm saying no but I mean yes." Henry thinks "Well, how can Margaret do better than me?" because that's how he's been brought up. The thought doesn't cross his mind that she's so independent and forward thinking to want to marry for love.Re: Frederick. He's the only son. OF COURSE he's the favorite child! He's supposed to take care of his parents and sister. A boy is supposed to make everything OK.
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On the topic of Frederick: Well, perhaps you're right, but that doesn't make it any more fair! And I still think his long absence had a least a little to do with it.
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There are a few similarities between Collins and Lennox but Lennox thought Margaret was showing affection for him, and Lennox wasn't quite as cack-handed with the proposal as Collins. Also, Lennox did take no for an answer unlike Collins who kept on for a while ;)
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Okay, I know this is a little unrelated to this episode, but sort of related... What do you all think Thornton and Margaret's wedding would be like? Because I know Margaret said she'd want to wake up on a sunny day, put on her favourite dress and just walk to the church, but did she really mean it? In any case, I can see Thornton wanting to make a bigger deal out of it than that, don't you think? :)
I think Thornton would do whatever Margaret wanted for a wedding. But then, Margaret would do whatever Thornton wanted, too. Mrs T and Milton society and Aunt Shaw and London society would expect a big shindig...and Margaret has a lot of money...Nope, I think small. Both of them are less concerned with what others think than with what they think appropriate. And I would think giant weddingness would have been mostly about show. They'd put their money in the mill and the betterment of people and get married in a small way.
Starting at the start of the episode, ending with Margaret meeting Bessie and Nicholas Higgins while out on her walk.