Works of Thomas Hardy discussion

Since I'm personally working through the works of Thomas Hardy, I thought I'd start a discussion of his works as I go. Hopefully, some of you will join me. His first published novel was ...

Desperate Remedies
Cytherea has taken a position as lady's maid to the eccentric arch-intriguer Miss Aldclyffe. On discovering that the man she loves, Edward Springrove, is already engaged to his cousin, Cytherea comes under the influence of Miss Aldclyffe's fascinating, manipulative steward Manston. Blackmail, murder and romance are among the ingredients of Hardy's first published novel, and in it he draws blithely on the 'sensation novel' perfected by Wilkie Collins. Several perceptive critics praised the author as a novelist with a future when Desperate Remedies appeared anonymously in 1871. In its depiction of country life and insight into psychology and sexuality it already bears the unmistakable imprint of Hardy's genius. (GoodReads blurb)

Free Kindle eBook: http://www.amazon.com/Desperate-Remed...
Free eBooks from Gutenburg in various formats:
http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/3044
Free Audiobook: http://www.classicistranieri.com/thom...

Pre-Reading Discussion Questions
1. In the first chapter, we meet Ambrose Graye who is described as being the type to always forget that there's wickedness in the world and to always be surprised by wickedness in a new friend. Are you more likely to view the world as Graye does or are you suspicious of everyone? If you are suspicious of everyone, was it always in your nature to be this way and what do you think of people like Graye who are infinitely trusting?

2. Hardy writes often about love at first sight. Do you believe it exists? What are your sentiments about it?

3. Based on any of your past readings of Hardy's works, what do you think Hardy thought about love at first sight?

Reading Questions:
1. Hardy writes a particularly homo-erotic scene in Chapter VI.1. (20%) I read that he was made to change the scene in a later edition to read as "motherly" love. Do you think Hardy meant the scene innocently and motherly or otherwise?

2. Concerning the fire, did you hope that (view spoiler)[Mrs. Manston (hide spoiler)] would perish in it?

3. Which is a better match for Cytherea? Edward, Manston, or neither?

4. What do you think of Manston's reaction to (view spoiler)[his wife's death? (hide spoiler)](at 50%)

5. What do you think about marrying for money instead of for love? What if the money is to meet a relative's desperate needs?

6. Did you see the ending coming?

7. Did you feel in the end that (view spoiler)[Edward had sufficiently earned Cytherea's love (hide spoiler)]?

8. Do you feel that Manston was a victim of bad circumstances or that he was truly (view spoiler)[ evil and guilty? Do you think his taking on of a fake wife with which he carried on as a real wife make things worse for him in the end? (hide spoiler)]

9. How do you rate this compared to other Hardy books you've read?

Pre-Reading Discussion Questions
1. In the first chapter, we meet Ambrose Graye who is described as being the type to always forget that there's wickedness in the world and to always be surprised by wickedness in a new friend. Are you more likely to view the world as Graye does or are you suspicious of everyone? If you are suspicious of everyone, was it always in your nature to be this way and what do you think of people like Graye who are infinitely trusting?

2. Hardy writes often about love at first sight. Do you believe it exists? What are your sentiments about it?

3. Based on any of your past readings of Hardy's works, what do you think Hardy thought about love at first sight?

Reading Questions:
1. Hardy writes a particularly homo-erotic scene in Chapter VI.1. (20%) I read that he was made to change the scene in a later edition to read as "motherly" love. Do you think Hardy meant the scene innocently and motherly or otherwise?

http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/3044 for all other devices than Kindle.

1. Once upon a time, I was a person who always assumed the best in everyone unless given evidence to the contrary. And even with evidence to the contrary, I liked to give them the benefit of the doubt. However, after having been burned to a serious degree by this blind trustfulness, my entire personality changed to that of a skeptic. I don't tend to distrust everyone from the start, but I notice when people are not trustworthy much more quickly. Some people never have that shock of experience and I think will always be naively trustful. It's just unfortunate when it causes their demise or, in this case, negative consequences for those around them. I'm curious to see if the author visits this idea again ... if Ambrose's children learned from the mistakes of their father or if they make the same types of mistakes by being overly trustworthy.

2. I believe in attraction at first sight as both a visual and chemical phenomenon. What many people think of as love at first sight is just a heightened giddiness brought on by chemicals in the brain. However, I think that real love is something that develops over time.

3. Hardy seems to have his characters fall in love at first sight, but leads his readers to see foolishness in the relationship. The better love match for the moon-eyed character is often thwarted. And when characters do seem to fit well with each other, they end up not being able to have each other for very long. I get the feeling that Hardy finds the pursuit of someone that you've fallen in love with at first sight to be a silly and foolish undertaking. He also seems to think that true love is fleeting. I might draw different conclusions after reading more of his works, but these seem to be themes in the books of his I have read.

I find this quote from the first section of the book to be interesting:

“Don't love too blindly: blindly you will love if you love at all, but a little care is still possible to a well-disciplined heart. May that heart be yours as it was not mine. Cultivate the art of renunciation.”

On love at first sight, I think Hardy uses as a sort of vessel to express his views on fate. This is particularly prominent in Tess as the reader questions 'What if?' after reading it and thinking back to the first time Tess sees Angel and he doesn't dance with her. Perhaps this could be seen as Hardy believing in love at first sight.

1. In the first chapter, we meet Ambrose Graye who is described as being the type to always forget that there's wickedness in the world and to always be surprised by wickedness in a new friend. Are you more likely to view the world as Graye does or are you suspicious of everyone? If you are suspicious of everyone, was it always in your nature to be this way and what do you think of people like Graye who are infinitely trusting?

I think you grow more suspicious by experience. At a certain age you discover people tend to act towards their own personal benefit than you would originally anticipated. This makes you more weary of others. I am now in a state of what I call consciously naïve , which means that at first you give somebody the benefit of the doubt but always keep that eye open for not being used. It is very natural to protect your own interests as that protects your own survival. On the other hand, being sacrificial to a group also means survival. Modern Western society has taught us to be individuals so it is more than logical that the average person tends towards egocentric behaviour. Personally I have become more weary of others. I have met too many people acting more on their own personal interest rather than the group. People like Graye have a kind of innocence in the which I sometimes wish to have as well. Not only does such a view on life give cause for less stress, on the other hand it makes you susceptible for manipulation.

2. Hardy writes often about love at first sight. Do you believe it exists? What are your sentiments about it?

It depends on your definition of ‘love’. Profound love needs more than merely good looks. Good looks can be a good starter, but profound love needs experience and a more in depth knowledge. One’s character tells more about the future of a relationship than beauty. Of course you could state that monogamy or keeping one love for the rest of your life is unnatural, but I’m of the opinion that life would be superfluous if you keep hopping lovers.

3. Based on any of your past readings of Hardy's works, what do you think Hardy thought about love at first sight?

Although I have read a lot of novels by Hardy, I haven’t paid special attention to that. I more interested I the depiction of the loss of village life and the disconnection from nature. Hardy does show a lot of fatalism in love, at I can’t remember a novel in which a love grew slowly. For example in Under the Greenwood Tree Fancy Day is especially loved for her beauty rather than her character. It seems as if Hardy takes a good character for granted once a character has good looks. I don't know if Hardy particulary works towards the idea that true loveis fleeting. There is this general melancholy in his novels, but whether this is the cause or effect of fleeting love, I'm not sure.

edit: re-corrected auto-correct

Hardy has highlighted the pitfalls of love at first sight through Tess. There is a sense of danger and down fall. I am only 33% through the novel but already waiting for cytherea to fall ! It looks as though she may make the same mistake.

Speaking in 19th century terms, she already did in the rowing boat.

Reddleman wrote: "Although I have read a lot of novels by Hardy, I haven’t paid special attention to that. I more interested I the depiction of the loss of village life and the disconnection from nature. Hardy does show a lot of fatalism in love, at I can’t remember a novel in which a love grew slowly. For example in Under the Greenwood Tree Macy Gray is especially loved for her beauty rather than her character. It seems as if Hardy takes a good character for granted once a character has good looks. I don't know if Hardy particulary works towards the idea that true loveis fleeting. There is this general melancholy in his novels, but whether this is the cause or effect of fleeting love, I'm not sure...."

And I'd not noticed the loss of village life and disconnection from nature. Do you mean comparing Hardy's time with modern life or comparing previously to Hardy's writing?

Macy Gray? I assume that's an autocorrect for Fancy Day. Ha.

In Under the Greenwood Tree I found Fancy Day to have both the qualities of beauty and intelligence. Two men fall in love with her for her looks and one for her intelligence. I got the idea she'd have been happiest with the one who loved her for her intelligence as well as her beauty. It seemed at the got the end that she was not going to be truly happy with the choice that she made. I thought Hardy was trying to perhaps show that love based on sight and emotion alone might not be the best choice. Had she waited long enough, she might have encountered a combination of physical, emotional, and intellectual attraction.

Maybe I notice the love-at-first-sight element more because I recently read Hardy's The Well-Beloved where the main character is constantly falling in and out of love. Hardy wrote it as a character sketch of a certain type. In Two on a Tower, the two who fall in love fall for each other first on an intellectual basis. So it seems that Hardy likes to explore all types of loves ... and fatalistically. But he seems to have a firm idea of what works and what doesn't.

Here we have Cytherea greatly questioning her emotions toward Owen from the very beginning. And it seems that its her father's failed experiences with love-at-first-sight that makes her a skeptic. Cytherea says, "Owen. What is he to me? Nothing. I must dismiss such weakness as this -- believe me, I will."

Reading Questions:
1. Hardy writes a particularly homo-erotic scene in Chapter VI.1. (20%) I read that he was made to change the scene in a later edition to read as "motherly" love. Do you think Hardy meant the scene innocently and motherly or otherwise?

Actually I thought that the scene seemed erotic but is it because I am seeing from a modern world? In those days there was a sense of innocence. Our culture has changed deeply since Hardy days.

Yes, I thought it seemed erotic as well. In fact, I found myself anticipating the scene before it happened ... (view spoiler)[former lady's maids leaving the position quickly, Cytherea I imagining how it would feel for Cytherea II to touch her, etc. Or maybe having just watched Withnail and I prepared me for the knock at the door. (hide spoiler)]

There doesn't seem to be too much out there about female homosexuality during the Victorian era. Hardy was a contemporary of Oscar Wilde, so homosexuality in general was certainly an issue of the time. Trust Hardy to mention something unmentionable for the time. After all Queen Victoria said she didn't make any laws against female homosexuality because women wouldn't do such a thing as men would. If they wouldn't do such a thing, then Hardy can write about it to his heart's content and call it motherly love if questioned since Queen Victoria doesn't think it exists.

That is interesting. I had not thought of it before or knew about Queen Victoria's views on this subject.

Interesting. I never thought about how the railway took away business from innkeepers who were used to hosting weary foot and horse travelers.

Oh, god, I love the creepy organ thunder scene. Why was this book never made into a movie when so many other Hardy books were?

And I'd not noticed the loss of village life and disconnection from nature. Do you mean comparing Hardy's time with modern life or comparing previously to Hardy's writing?

The Victorian world had a huge impact on the countryside. You could say that the modern world started there and the old way of living was pushed away by the use machines. In Hardy's Wessex novels there a subtle references to this. His world is a fading world, but he often depicts it not as something shameful, but more of something that occurs. This most explicitly clear in Under the Green Wood Tree where the village musicians are replaced by an organ.

Macy Gray? I assume that's an autocorrect for Fancy Day. Ha.

She is a singer right? Must be an auto-correct ><.

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Reading Questions:
1. Hardy writes a particularly homo-erotic scene in Chapter VI.1. (20%) I read that he was made to change the scene in a later edition to read as "motherly" love. Do you think Hardy meant the scene innocently and motherly or otherwise?

I don't think Hardy meant it to be purely motherly. (view spoiler)[Miss Aldclyffe is surely competing with Edward or men in general, but I also think that this homosexual 'love' tends more to a motherly love than real erotic love. I am not suprised Miss Aldclyffe gets into Cytherea's bed and wants her to kiss her. (hide spoiler)] The female relation in the Victorian age seems to be more liberal and such things were generally acceped (though I must say, I don't have clear cut references to that). (view spoiler)[As Miss Aldclyffe later a kind of apologises for the night it seems all was done is a passionate moment of being and her motherly/lover feelings have been calmed and controlled.

So either these feelings are as a mother to her daughter, or a female who has been betrayed by a man trust female companionship more. I have to read more to find out. (hide spoiler)]

(@29%)

Reading Questions
2. Concerning the fire, did you hope that (view spoiler)[Mrs. Manston (hide spoiler)] would perish in it?

3. Which is a better match for Cytherea? Edward, Manston, or neither?

4. What do you think of Manston's reaction to (view spoiler)[his wife's death? (hide spoiler)](at 50%)

Don't forget spoiler tags!!

Reading Questions
2. Concerning the fire, did you hope that (view spoiler)[Mrs. Manston (hide spoiler)] would perish in it?

Actually no. (view spoiler)[Actually I am hoping she reappears somewhere in the novel and the bones being of some unfortunate burglar. I found her very interesting for the plot (and Hardy has taken some time earlier in the novel for her), but she had of course leave the novel (for now, I hope) to give room for Mrs. Aldclyffe's scheming. Mrs. Manston was blocking the plot in some way. Now she is removed the love triangle Cytherea, Manston and Edward can move on. (hide spoiler)]

3. Which is a better match for Cytherea? Edward, Manston, or neither?

Absolutely not Manston. (view spoiler)[For me he is not trustworthy. We must trust his word Mrs. Manston is evil though Hardy hasn't shown a lot of evilness on her side. Manston is also involved in tricking Cytherea by Mrs. Aldclyffe's scheming. He was already playing Cytherea when he was still married, unhappy as might have been, it was still unappropriate. (hide spoiler)]

I am not sure about Edward. (view spoiler)[Although I found him a bit too eager in the rowing boat, he was never sure of this marrage with his cousin. Now he is forced while still loving Cytherea, he seems more sincere than Manston. But of course we need to know more about both suitors which Hardy withholds for now. (hide spoiler)]

4. What do you think of Manston's reaction to (view spoiler)[his wife's death (hide spoiler)]?(at 50%)

(view spoiler)[He doesn't seem to bother that much (except for the general opinion on his reaction. This makes him a bit cold hearted. How evil Mrs. Manston might have been, which is still not all too clear with Manston being our only source of information, he once must have loved her. Now she is just an obstacle removed. (hide spoiler)]

(@51%)

I've been meaning to get back to this to answer for myself ... Anyhow ...

2. I kind of did ... mainly just to further the story along without (view spoiler)[her. I wanted to see how Cytherea II was going to react to Manston's advances. And how and why Cytherea I was going to push Cytherea II upon Manston. I think I accidentally got a spoiler as to who Manston really is when some bozo's book description gave away a huge plot point. But even so, I'm still not sure what's in it for Cytherea I. Why does she want them together? What's in it for her other than perhaps living vicariously through Cytherea II? (hide spoiler)]

3. I find both of them to be poor matches. She doesn't like Manston. And she barely enjoyed herself with Edward during her first couple of encounters with him. I hate when women in these sorts of novels are so worried about becoming old maids that they think they have such narrow choices. They worry that perhaps something better might not come along. Just because you only know 2 men right now doesn't mean another one will never come along. Seriously. But, anyhow, I suppose it's necessary for the plot. Hardy seems to like creating love triangles (or quadrangles in some cases).

4. Here's the thing ... I'm not going to be popular for saying this, but I'm going to be honest. Once upon a time (view spoiler)[I was married to a thieving con artist and chronic liar. At one point he (allegedly) worked as a security guard, and I couldn't sleep at night worrying about him. But at a certain point, our lives and our marriage became so miserable that I starting wishing he'd meet his demise on the job. And that was the first moment I realized that we should divorce. If you start wishing the person you're married to would die because it would solve all the problems in your life, that's when you know something's seriously wrong. I felt horrible for thinking that, but I worried that I'd come to physical harm if I tried breaking it off, so that became my horrible, horrible fantasy because it was the only way I could see of getting out. Finally, I was able to break it off through a two-way window and a telephone with him behind bars. So there's that.

At this point in the story, we don't know much about Manston's wife, but we do know that he wishes he never married her and that she turned out to be something different than what she thought. She seems to be an evil schemer since we see her blackmail Cytherea I in order to get what she wants. I'm guessing this is just the tip of the iceberg of what Manston has experienced with her. So I can understand his sentiments. Divorce was nearly unheard of in that time, so it came as a relief to him that she had died. I get it. That was his way out.

However, I don't particularly like Manston. His grief over the death of his wife only seems for show. Even if he's relieved, there should be some level of grief there for someone's death. Additionally, he does everything he can to get Cytherea II to marry him even though it's clear that she's not interested. He's as creepy as he seemed from that first encounter. I see him and Cytherea I as the co-villains of the story. (hide spoiler)]

Discussion Questions
5. What do you think about marrying for money instead of love? What if the money is to meet a relative's desperate needs?

5. I don't find money to be important in matters of love. I think that it's felt more strongly in a society that is heavily class-based. But I've personally never considered it. It's the person, not the money that matters. In the case of Cytherea's and Edward's relatives' desperate monetary needs (view spoiler)[, I have to say that I would have reacted differently. Edward stays away from Cytherea to help his father. If I were him, I would have just assumed that the father made his own problems by removing his insurance policy and then leaving a fire burning unattended near a row of thatched-roof houses. That was the father's burden to carry for making dumb decision's, not Edward's. I can understand Cytherea worrying about her brother, but I still don't think she had to marry Manston to make things work out for her brother. I think it was especially selfish of the brother to make his sister marry Manston. A good brother would have said, "I'd rather lose a leg than to see you marry someone you don't love." Seriously. He shouldn't have put that type of burden upon his sister.

So it should have gone like this: Edward's father lays in the burning bed he's made for himself just as he expects to. Edward gets a good job as an architect. Cytherea marries Edward for love and still has enough money to help her brother. And they live happily ever after. But, of course, that wouldn't make for nearly as interesting of a plot because everyone wouldn't be trying to balance their inner and outer feelings so precariously. (hide spoiler)]

A pondering at 67% ... (view spoiler)[If those weren't Manston's wife's bones found in the fire, whose were they? Did someone have a dirty secret? Otherwise, certainly a towns person would be missed. (hide spoiler)]

People tend to be naturally attracted to persons of similar class and wealth I think. Therefore, Maybe most people don't think to look for someone with money.

Cytherea and Edward are of similar class and background so I think they are more suited.

I finished this a couple of days ago. The last bit makes you want to rush to the end. I was pleasantly surprised to see a Hardy novel that's a sort of a gothic mystery. So, I guess the best questions for the ending are these ...

Discussion Questions
6. Did you see the ending coming?

7. Did you feel in the end that (view spoiler)[Edward had sufficiently earned Cytherea's love (hide spoiler)]?

8. Do you feel that Manston was a victim of bad circumstances or that he was truly (view spoiler)[ evil and guilty? Do you think his taking on of a fake wife with which he carried on as a real wife make things worse for him in the end? (hide spoiler)]

9. How do you rate this compared to other Hardy books you've read?

I had guessed the link between Manston and Miss Aldclyiffe quite early in the novel and the ending was fairly predictable. However, it was still enjoyable seeing the plot unfold.

Hardy is genius at developing character and the character of Manston is no exception. I think it was in Manston's character to behave as he did. He was probably like his father. Cytherea never felt comfortable with him although he was handsome.

This novel was less challenging than some of his later ones. Some of his novels are written in such a way that sometimes it's hard to follow the plot. Two things are the hall mark of most of Hardy's novels and they are the tragedy and the comedy. There were two or three moments when I laughed aloud when I wasn't expecting too!

5. What do you think about marrying for money instead of love? What if the money is to meet a relative's desperate needs?
It really depends from what point of view you answer this question. Social circumstances in the 19th century were different from those in the 21st. It was actually a hard question for girls in those days. This is because the choice is in the realm of survival. Nowadays you won't be automtically ruined if you would marry a person of a 'lower' class. Marrying a rich man in 19th century meant a lot.

As a knowing reader I would say she should never marry Manston as marrying a brute ((view spoiler)[ even not knowing what he has done to his wife (hide spoiler)]) makes real life maybe as miserable as marrying a yeoman. As Cytherea is described as a nice looking girl, not too old, she should be fishing in a different pond.

6. Did you see the ending coming?
Not in its very detail. (view spoiler)[I did not expect Manston (by accident) killing his wife. The detective work seems a bit too artifical, as a gimmick to bring the story to an end. The connection between Mrs Aldclyffe and Manston was all to clear from the beginning as Susan said. I found the role of Mrs Aldclyffe dwindling to a point where she is a mere spectator. (hide spoiler)]


7. Did you feel in the end that (view spoiler)[Edward had sufficiently earned Cytherea's love (hide spoiler)]?
Edward seems to be a half-wit hero (view spoiler)[ he doesn't even catch Manston or is able to deal with him in Cytherea's house. Although he does some effort to solve the mystery he abides rather than take initiative in gaining Cythrea's love. For his detective work he has gained more of Cytherea's affection, but her hand, that also needs a bit more taking risks. The cheeky Edward in the rowing boat seems to have disappeared in the end. (hide spoiler)]

8. Do you feel that Manston was a victim of bad circumstances or that he was truly (view spoiler)[evil and guilty? Do you think his taking on of a fake wife with which he carried on as a real wife make things worse for him in the end? (hide spoiler)]

(view spoiler)[Manston surely was a victim to circumstances, but some of these circumstances were influenced by his character. He had an unfortunate accident with his real wife. It is even understandable he tries to hide the body at first. However, he went through with his plan all the way, never showing remorse until the very end in jail. Taking a fake wife is really strange. Although in those days it was easier to fake an identity, I find that plot item a bit stretched, because it can't stand in the long run. Storywise, it seems lke a desperate measure of Manston to survive the accident, but it is actually less evil than marrying Cytherea whilst knowing he had recently killed his first wife. (hide spoiler)]

9. How do you rate this compared to other Hardy books you've read?

It is not as good as Jude or Tess. I found it better than Under the Greenwood Tree (but I like that novel for its scenes). I have given it three out of five because some how I enjoyed reading it (for me, 1 = waste of time/unfinished, 2 = weak read, 3 = good read, 4 = great read, 5 = life influencing read).

(@100%, ★★★☆☆)

As a final hurrah, I made a poll to rate Desperate Remedies so that future readers in the group can get an idea about what we all felt about it: https://www.goodreads.com/poll/show/1...