Fringe Fiction Unlimited discussion

I ask because I haven't had any luck with the goodreads beta reader groups. Are there any other places where you can find reliable beta readers?

I have found about 10 for my latest project, all but a couple on the main beta reader group. Be patient...a couple ppl contacted me close to a month after I posted a request. Also, you can try beta trading w authors who haven't had responses on their requests. Or contact some betas who posted offers ( I did all 3 BC I wanted a lot of betas).

OK. Good advice, Lena. I will definitely be patient, and I'll consider swapping for sure!

I am in a writers group which has its ups and downs. I also asked readers of my other works to be beta readers. It also depends on your subject matter. For example my latest project is about a kid who talks with dead Presidents. They are teaching him history and is designed for kids though the adults who are reading it are loving it. But I have some younger people reading that one since that is largely the target audience.

http://writing.com ~ Half a million members who can earn awards for reviewing works posted on the site, and who earn rewards for exceptional reviews; groups dedicated to reviewing; people who are there to do nothing else. Just be sure you want everything pointed out with a floodlight, 'cause those people will tell you...

I have just started looking for beta readers for the first time. Not as easy as I thought it might be. I have a post on here and a post on the beta readers group but no bites so far.

My wife always beta reads my books and I have a friend doing it as well. I wanted to get two or three writers/readers who I didn't have a personal connection with to do it as well, but I might not be able to in time. I'm looking at a late May release date.

Mark wrote: "I have just started looking for beta readers for the first time. Not as easy as I thought it might be. I have a post on here and a post on the beta readers group but no bites so far...."

Did you go through the threads and respond to beta readers offering to read? You can find your target audience, or just pick random ones if you're in a hurry and don't want to sort through the threads.

Good advice, everyone. Thanks!

I had six beta readers for my debut novel that came out last week. My wife, brother, uncle, good friend, and brother-in-law and sister-in-law. These are people I trust to give the the truth (believe me, they will and they have), so I wasn't worried about getting biased opinions.

I met a few writers in a critique group we all hated, made a connection, and decided to exchange emails. I created my own beta reading group with friends, some are writers, some are avid readers, all are more than willing to give honest impressions. I found it far better to have friends as beta-readers instead of an online group.

I would agree, Lily. Friends are definitely better than online groups. What I like about strangers critiquing the manuscript though is that there's less incentive for them to sugarcoat things.

The kind of beta readers I've found useful will refer to the story almost as a real person. This is what the story needs and this is what the story doesn't need, regardless of how I might feel about something I threw into a story. I've yet to find a writers/critque group which provides that. In my experience, there tends to be a group mentality. Either blind love or blind hate, and I'm left no better and no worse than when I joined.

That's been my experience with writing groups, too. Plus, there's always "that" person who likes to rip stuff apart, which makes for an awkward discussion.

I'm going to say that as a beta reader, it will depend on what your story is about and what kind of feedback you are looking for. You will find that some beta readers are good all around, some are fantastic with grammatical and spelling errors, while others succeed in finding flaws in the plot line. I agree with messaging betas but be prepared to not be at the top of the list. They more than likely have other projects that they are working on.
But the more eyes on your project before its release the better. Heard that at a writer's conference once and I wholeheartedly believe it's true.

Michael wrote: "That's been my experience with writing groups, too. Plus, there's always "that" person who likes to rip stuff apart, which makes for an awkward discussion."

THAT guy lol There's always one.

I'm with Andrea, which is why I found it best to connect with people, one on one, keep the communication open and clear.

Andrea wrote: I agree with messaging betas but be prepared to not be at the top of the list. They more than likely have other projects that they are working on.

So true. All of the betas offering their services fill up on books pretty quickly, which puts the writer in a conundrum of trying to time beta readers vs. delaying publication. Seems like there should be some dashing entrepreneur that could figure out a solution to this dilemma!

Lily wrote: ...why I found it best to connect with people, one on one, keep the communication open and clear.

I agree, though I think it is definitely possible to accomplish this both with someone you know and with a stranger.

I thought about starting my own beta reading group many timea. I could set it up easily on my website. The things that I have stopped me are the following:

- Amateurs looking for complete strangers to do the writing for them based on their brilliant idea, for free. Gee, you want me to be your ghostwriting slave? You better pay me for it.

- People looking for free copyediting. I'm not a copyeditor, but I feel the same rule applies. Pay someone or have an amazing friend/family member to do it for you. Or better yet, learn to edit your own work.

- Those looking for that magical secret short-cut formula in life so their brilliant idea will get them instant fame and riches. In that case, it won't how many professionals are paid, or how much is paid, it simply doesn't work that way. There are no short-cuts in life and creative writing isn't an exception. No secret, no short-cuts, just a lot of work.

- Last but not least, and to be fair I had this expectation for a while, those looking for unbiased reactions to their writing. The fact is, you have to be patient. That kind of thing only happens after publication and complete strangers read your work. I've learned you just don't find that with beta readers, you ony find that with general readers and it takes time. It'll happen whenever it happens.

So, I never bothered to set up a beta reading group. I don't feel I have anything to offer.

That's interesting, Lily. I think the biggest issue would be that authors probably submit manuscripts before they're even ready to be read. So true about learning to edit your own work, though. Typos are always acceptable in an early manuscript, but you've got to at least have an understanding of the craft---anything less is a waste of a beta's time.

Agreed, Michael.

I find it takes a certain objectivity. The willingness to step outside of your ego, which can be a lot easier said that done for most people. Hell, I'm still having trouble with that one lol

I have run into that many times. I have some authors who are fantastic and you can tell the project has had many edits and a lot of hard work has gone into them but then other times its like someone wrote out a thought and called it a story. I say that because i dont know about you but my thoughts are jumbled, broken and are in 20 different places at once. I get that some people have ideas and want to write but that takes practice and patience or pure born talent which is rare. I get stuck trying to tell people that they need to review their works more before trying to have someone beta read it, especially if they are wanting to be serious authors.

Sorry if that sounds preachy. :)

It's true. Beta readers are just that---readers. Your ms doesn't have to be perfect when you send it to betas, but it does need to be professional. Couldn't agree more.

Andrea wrote: "I have run into that many times. I have some authors who are fantastic and you can tell the project has had many edits and a lot of hard work has gone into them but then other times its like someon..."

It doesn't sound preachy :) And I'm pretty sure I know exactly what you mean. I tend to get one big idea that explodes into a lot of little ideas and I'm left scrambling around connecting the dots and hoping against hope it makes sense to someone else besides me.

See above paragraph for an example ;)

There's definitely a huge different between writing a thought and telling a story. I've learned that the long and hard way. Many times I've found the real underlying cause of why an aspiring writer's work isn't coming through is because they're still wondering if they have talent. We all have talent, that's a given. It's a matter of learning how to use your talent.

I selected ten willing participants (betas) from armsreach, friends and family.

I asked that they each note down elements they loved, hated, were confused by, wished went differently, etc.

I asked that they ignore grammar issues, since there would be an editor for that. They only relayed their notes/thoughts back to me, and did not converse with each other. Knowing them personally, I was able to arrange full conversations in person or on the phone to review their notes.

If there were any great points or shared opinions, good or bad, I focused on them to enhance, tone down or correct.

Stage two, I had three more arms length people read it. They still had opinions, as every reader will, but confusion or errors were down 90-95%

That's an interesting process, Oak. I should try that---two rounds of beta reading; one early, one just before publication.

I am always on the lookout for talented writers willing to beta read as their schedules permit. I have found a few people who I can trust to give quality feedback, and I do the same for them. I take chances with others: I will beta read for whomever I can if I have the time, hoping that some day they might return the favor.

Some do. Some don't.

Oak, I went through a similar process. I hand selected five people to be beta readers for my psychological thriller, and each had their own purpose. Three are writers, and their purpose was overall story structure. One is an avid reader and his purpose was pacing/suspense. The fifth happens to be a university librarian so his purpose was a little for both story structure and pacing.

So, I don't feel that being a writer is a mandatory requirement for beta reading.

As what's been said on this thread, it will depend on what the author wants or needs. Grammar and other nit-picks, I didn't need at all and would be a glorious waste of time. Story stucture and pacing is the feedback I needed. Otherwise, I had no problems handling everything else on my own.

Michael wrote: "That's an interesting process, Oak. I should try that---two rounds of beta reading; one early, one just before publication."

Michael, I believe it worked well for the overall process. I knew my story, and it made sense to me, but I really wanted outsider reaction as it progressed. It allowed me to pit-stop and fix things on the fly, instead of racing to the finish (sorry for the bad analogy, it just worked)

Andrea wrote: "I get that some people have ideas and want to write but that takes practice and patience or pure born talent which is rare."

I'm of the belief that 'pure born talent', outside of fantastically rare cases of savantism, is what people call it when they don't know how much practice you put in. :-)

Virginia wrote: "Andrea wrote: "I get that some people have ideas and want to write but that takes practice and patience or pure born talent which is rare."

I'm of the belief that 'pure born talent', outside of fa..."

Hahahaha...

I'm a mod for the big beta reader group on goodreads, and it's a lot more work than the other group I mod.

People email me ALL THE TIME asking how to ask for a beta reader or post their services. There are threads explaining it, but either they aren't clear or people don't take the time to read them. A lot of emails I get are people who just haven't been on goodreads long or don't know how to use posts, etc. I was surprised by the volume of mail I get from that group.

(My other group, I've only gotten messages from the other mods).

One thing I wanted to post in the rules was that you had to edit your work first, lol. But some betas don't seem to mind doing that, or only reading a few chapters, or hand-holding while the author is actually writing the book.

So, I try to be hands-off and just let people find matches that work for them.

That's interesting, Lena. You would think that it would be fairly self-explanatory. My biggest problem was that I followed the rules, and still couldn't get any bites!

I wonder if the issue you're having has more to do with the way the goodreads groups are set up. If you're a newbie just jumping on only to get your ms critiqued, it's probably pretty easy to miss the sticky posts. GR groups are the most intuitive...

I meant to say, "are not" the most intuitive.

Question about Beta readers.... do you pay them???

Kendal wrote: "Question about Beta readers.... do you pay them???"

Definitely not. If you do, the chances are too high you won't get the feedback you need, just the feedback they will thinking gets them paid.

Kendal wrote: "Question about Beta readers.... do you pay them???"

Because I knew my beta readers and actors (I also did a book trailer with friends, with zero budget - you can see it on my author page), I had a casual 'wrap party' at my place and looked after food/drink.

Also, once I had print versions available, I signed and gifted one to each of them. 90% of them bought another copy regardless, and gave it to a friend.

Hey, I may call on them again, so wanted to make sure they enjoyed the experience!

Question about Beta readers.... do you pay them???

No. If you're going to spend money, pay an editor instead. You can always give a beta reader a gift card or something similar after their service, but that's entirely optional, and most beta readers should not ask for payment. If they do, I'd probably run.

I think Michael is right, with the caveat being that some editors will provide what are essentially beta reading services, or what some people call a "content edit." Basically the strengths and weaknesses of your novel from a publication perspective. Some "amateur" beta readers may not be able to tell you this, and will only give a subjective account of what they liked and didn't like (as people in this thread have mentioned). Both types of feedback are obviously useful, but I think you should pay people based on their level of expertise and the feedback they can provide, not on what the service is called as such.

Kendal wrote: "Question about Beta readers.... do you pay them???"

You can buy them flowers or something? That's what mum did when our aunt (a hairdresser) cut our hair for free. Maybe chocolates or a small present just to make them feel valued?

It doesn't hurt, Virginia!

I agree with Lily on getting other writers as beta readers. I find my beta readers through Sisters in Crime, an organization for mystery writers, even though I just barely squeeze into a remote and murder-free corner of the mystery genre and another remote and vampire-free corner of the paranormal genre. Personally, I don't want family and friends as beta readers. I want other writers. They will find the flaws, make the strong suggestions, tell me where to cut and what to keep, in ways a non-writer never could. Every genre has an organization like this. I think the one for horror is critters.org. For romance there is Romance Writers of America. There is one for SciFi and Fantasy. I'm sure there are more. Goodreads is great for discussions and reviews, but I'm not sure I'd be satisfied with it as a source of beta readers. The writers' organizations are sort pre-vetted. You meet other people with a commitment to their craft. I've done swaps, critique groups, and also beta read for people who needed my obscure expertise on a particular topic without any trade. In my group there is no payment given. We are writers helping writers. (Honestly, I was so delighted to beta read for Gigi Pandian, reading her work was payment enough.)

Nice point, Amber. But I would say that it's ideal to have a mix of writers and actual readers in your genre. This way, the writers can point out plot and writing-centric stuff. Readers in your genre are perfect test runs of how reviewers will read the book. But if I had to pick and I could only have 1 beta, I'd be with you, and I'd pick a writer. :)

I've thought about offering to beta read before, but I'm honestly afraid that I would end up pissing the writer off since I am not always the best at being tactful and may have also been accused of being a grammar nazi on occasion, lol.

As for picking another writer, that seems like a wise idea (as long as that person knows what they're doing). I would recommend to have both writers and readers though, because there are probably different things they look for. If that makes any sense.

BK is definitely right. What I find frustrating about asking writers to read my work is that many people (and I used to be guilty of this myself) end up telling you how they would write the story, not how you should write the story.

As an editor myself, it took me a long time to get out of the "writer's" mindset and think only about whether what the author is saying is clear for a reader. It's very tempting for writers to focus on the prose itself and not the effect that the writing is supposed to have based on the "promise" established by the story.

It sounds like Michael has had good experiences with writers, which is fantastic. Just goes to show it's not a one-size-fits-all model; people just starting out who don't have money for editing would probably learn more from writers who have lots of self-editing experience, whereas more experienced writers with a lot of work under their belts would probably benefit more from thoughtful readers.

Writers are readers first. I hope! I don't think of them as two different groups of people when it comes to beta readers.

I've yet to have much experience with beta readers myself but if I could set up "ground rules" then I could be totally thick skinned.

Grammar - as long as said-nazi didn't belittle my errors, I'm fine with as many corrections as they noticed. Seriously, a godsend.

Plot - Holes and snags I'd love to know about, even if they turn out to be false alarms. Otherwise I wouldn't rearrange/rewrite the story without a compelling "your book is imploding" kind of reason. Suggests/rephrasing for lines are all things I would consider though.

Does anyone feel that's demanding? When I look for beta readers I want people to know they didn't waste their time but that I can't possibly write a book to their specifications.

Oh and a timely return so I can apply said changes.

That's not demanding, Courtney. It's better to be specific upfront with what you need from your betas. You might consider finding one reader for each element you described. That way they're reading with one thing in mind, and it's not as much work or time on their end (since they're bust just like us)

I found this post on beta-readers that some people might find interesting: http://www.thebookdesigner.com/2014/0...

Some points have been mentioned on this thread already, but there are some links to beta reader sites, which could be interesting.

Does anyone have short fiction that they need a beta reader for? I have some short stories on the go, so I would be willing to swap.

Nice article, Amy!

Where were you 3 months ago? I had a short story collection that needed a beta. :)

Courtney wrote: "I've yet to have much experience with beta readers myself but if I could set up "ground rules" then I could be totally thick skinned.

Grammar - as long as said-nazi didn't belittle my errors, I'..."

Courtney, I think you're being way too demanding.

BUT...I want the exact same thing!

I'm joking. It's probably not too demanding.

I just asked for Beta Readers. Right now I'm so in love with my book. I'm kind of afraid someone's going to read it. And I'm not afraid they won't love it. I'm afraid they'll say something to make me realize my love is completely misguided, and I've created a piece of crap.

While we're on the topic of beta readers, I just wrote a guest blog article about it:

http://www.selfpublishingadvice.org/w...

Maybe that helps some of you!