Classics for Beginners discussion

This is the buddy read threat for Crime & Punishment. We will start reading today, 18 December 2015, feel free to join at any later point as well!

I'll start reading tonight!

Great, me too :-)

How are you going with it Nina? I'm making slow progress; I'm at the 15% ish mark.

Raskolnikov is an interesting character. Desperate but still generous at times (even if he does regret being so afterwards).

Always horrible to read of ill treatment of animals.

Phew, I glad if have have read more than 5%. I need some time to get into it... Not much to say so far.

It is not an easy book to read. Some parts will be easier than others, but overall it will take time to read and absorb.

I've been wanting to read this book for ages, but I'm so busy now I don't think I'll get to it for a while.

ah, too bad you can't join!

A book that has been pending for ages! I'll join in for Crime and Punishment post 25th December, Cheers!

The letter of his mother gave me a very uneasy feeling. I fear that things will not turn out very well for poor Dunja. Probably for him neither but already he doesn't have my pity.

Dj wrote: "A book that has been pending for ages! I'll join in for Crime and Punishment post 25th December, Cheers!"

It'd be great to have you join us Dj.

Nina wrote: "The letter of his mother gave me a very uneasy feeling. I fear that things will not turn out very well for poor Dunja. Probably for him neither but already he doesn't have my pity."

I agree about Dunya (spelt differently in my translation). Women are definitely drawing the short straws. I felt sorry for Marmeladov's (?spelling. Too lazy to go check the kindle) daughter - out prostituting to try and feed the family whilst her father is out drinking.

I feel some empathy for Raskolnikov in terms of the incredible poverty he faces - very harsh times to live. But he's a despicable character so far. I wonder if he'll regret the choices he made because there is no evidence of that so far.

On another note; very grateful for the translator's notes in my edition as they help flesh out Russian society and provide context.

I agree about Sonja's fate. It's so desperate, I feel like there's no point at all of her sacrificing herself for her family as her father will just spend all the money on alcohol. On the other hand I guess she cannot not try to save her family.

I wonder what the point of the dream about the horse is? Maybe the association with killing Aljona Iwanowa?

My translation also has endnotes but I'm a bit too lazy to check regularly... maybe I should make a bigger effort. I am grateful though for a list of the characters. As usual with Russian books I struggle with the names.

Part One
(view spoiler)[ it's interesting how Dostoyevsky made all these coincidences happen that 'help' Raskolnikow execute his plan. It's an interesting thought whether he would also have committed the crime if not. <\spoiler> (hide spoiler)]

I must say, I got quite into it and really enjoy reading it now.

Part Two
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I wonder where this storyline about Marmeladow will go to. So far, it's not really related to the story itself. I feel really sorry for Sonia. Basically she sacrificed herself for nothing. And I guess once you went down that road, there's no way to get back into being a decent member of society.

I also wonder about Rodja. After how he behaves shouldn't he be even more suspicious than before? Also, why did his friend Rasumichin (?) all of a sudden get so interested in him? Maybe he's just a good person. So far that's how it seems. Maybe that's true.
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Nina wrote: "I agree about Sonja's fate. It's so desperate, I feel like there's no point at all of her sacrificing herself for her family as her father will just spend all the money on alcohol. On the other han..."

Yes, I think the horse scene was his subconscious going over the murder. Poor horse - I hated that scene.

The kindle edition I'm reading makes it super easy to read the end notes, which has been a bonus.

Nina wrote: "Part One
[spoilers removed]"

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I think he would still have committed the murder; though perhaps not necessarily right at that time.

Raskolnikov seemed to have committed to doing the murder in his own mind, and I think he seemed to feel justified in doing the murder.

I'm really struggling with his lack of remorse. I did wonder whether his illness was a way in which his body was expressing remorse, but I've gone off that idea. Really, he just seems stressed and anxious abut being caught, rather than because of what he did.

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Part Three:
the story is taking some interesting turns.

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I wonder whether Rasumichin might make for a good husband for Dunja? But then, he doesn't seem to have any money and back in those times who would get married to a poor man?

Further it is an interesting question what will happen to Sonja and Rodion. It seems like Dostoyevsky still has some plans here. Interesting twist.

I am surprised that in this part we hear for the first time about this concept of Rodion about the two types of humans and that this might justify crime. I expected this to be the main thought of the book but so far it was mentioned briefly in the beginning when Rodja is still preparing for the murder and then in much detail in this part.
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Nina wrote: "I must say, I got quite into it and really enjoy reading it now.

Part Two...

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Rodya was a real idiot in this chapter. As you've said, how he didn't call greater scrutiny on himself with the way he was carrying on.

Razumickin reminds me a bit of a big, enthusiastic puppy. I think he was just so excited and eager to be able to help someone out.

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Nina wrote: "Part Three:
the story is taking some interesting turns.

..."

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Chapters four and five in part three - WOW. Were they two amazing chapters or what.

I'm seeing future possibilities for Razumickin/Dunya, and for Raskolnikov/Sonya also.

Sonya... she's the character that I have the most empathy for. What a crappy situation and a crappy life she has. I find it hard not to feel disgust for Marmeladov. (needless to say, I'm not mourning him).

Found Raskolnikov's ideas interesting. Not saying I agree with them, but interesting. I'm going to go back and re-read that chapter before moving into section 4.

I'm not quite sure what to make of Raskolnikov. Kind and generous at times, but then at others seems almost narcissistic - esp. in his views about 'extraordinary men' (I wonder if he allows there could be 'extraordinary women ?)

In the discussion about Rodya's paper that was published, it wAs said he had written that the act of carrying out a crime is always accompanied by illness. Interesting given the illness Rodya has been experiencing. How much of that illness is caused by his psychological state??

The other thing I found interesting in section 3 was Raskolnikov's dream. He has these very vivid dreams that seem to be an accurate reflection of his psychological state at any time. (hide spoiler)]

Some interesting events in part four!!

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Dunya: She showed a lot more backbone and spirit than I expected her to. And good on both she and her mother for telling Pyotr Petrovich to get lost.

Sonya: Rodya was a bit of pig to Sonya in this part. He seemed to feel some connection to Sonya, and I'm not sure why?? Sonya seems at a loss about it as well.

Rodya: Finally got things off his chest to Porfiry. But I'm a little confused as to whether Porfiry didn't believe him (thought it had been delusions), or whether Porfiry was just toying with him a little more?

I'm also not sure what prompted Rodya at that moment to confess - he had been talking with Sonya about the rising of Lazarus (that came up in part 3 as well), then went and confessed. So I had assumed his conscious was finally pricking, and he thought he could re-make himself. But he seemed to change his tune as soon as he realised someone else had 'confessed'. Bit of a push and pull within himself perhaps?

I'm wondering when the 'punishment' part will arrive... Although there are things about him that are good, I don't like Rodya.

Something else that struck me when Sonya was reading from the bible to Rodya, was how good the literacy of everyone - even the poor - is in the novel. Compared with characters living in poverty in, say, a Dickens novel.

Was Russian society better educated in the whole, is Dostoyevsky just showing the educated poor, or was it just convenient to have Sonya literate because he needed her to read that passage with Rodya?

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Part 5

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I don't get Sonya. Rodya confesses and she's all okay I'll follow you to Siberia?! Say what?!

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RitaSkeeter wrote: "Nina wrote: "Part One
[spoilers removed]"



I think he would still have committed the murder; though perhaps not necessarily right at that time.

Raskolnikov seemed to have committed to doing the..."

RitaSkeeter wrote: "Nina wrote: "Part One
[spoilers removed]"



I think he would still have committed the murder; though perhaps not necessarily right at that time.

Raskolnikov seemed to have committed to doing the..."

I agree, I cannot see any remorse in him. It's more stress and anxiety about his own fate but he doesn't even think any more about the lives he took. There is one little moment, I cannot remember when, I think when he finds out that Sonja knew Lisaweta that he feels a little sorry for her. But I cannot see any feelings he has for her sister.

RitaSkeeter wrote: "Nina wrote: "Part Three:
the story is taking some interesting turns.

..."



Chapters four and five in part three - WOW. Were they two amazing chapters or what.

I'm seeing future possibilities fo..."

I agree!
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Sonja is certainly the most miserable character in the whole story. She has given literally everything she had and things only get worse and worse for her. She seems to have no control at al over her fate! Dunja is also a bit of a puppet, as probably all woman in that time, but still she has some influence left. Maybe also because the people around her help her to protect herself from the worst.

About Rodja' theory: I do find it very interesting indeed. And despite the fact that I don't agree I can see some points in it. Not that murder is justified as a means for the greater good and not in classifying humankind into these two categories in retrospective I guess we sometimes see that some historical events led to a better situation for society/ the world and that in order to get there for example a war or a revolution was necessary. And this unavoidably leads to victims. Not sure I express properly what I mean.

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RitaSkeeter wrote: "Some interesting events in part four!!



Dunya: She showed a lot more backbone and spirit than I expected her to. And good on both she and her mother for telling Pyotr Petrovich to get lost.

Sony..."

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I also got confused about the connection between Sonja and Rodja. Wonder where this will go.

I feel like Rodja is being punished the whole time already. It's his mind and his body that punish him for not being able any more to do anything that is not somehow related to the crime anymore. I don't think he necessarily needs a 'real' punishment. If his state doesn't change he won't be able to lead a normal life anymore.

I wondered about the Lazarus part: what do you think is the meaning of it in this story? That Rodja could resurrect and have a 'new' life if he confesses? If so that would mean that he feels guilty for it, no? Otherwise there would not be the need to start a new life.

Good question about education: I don't know actually. Maybe it is because Dostoevsky's goal in this book was not to draw a realistic image of society but to express a certain idea/ concept and so he didn't need to have the characters to be realistic representations of society but to fulfill a certain role in this concept?

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Re: the discussion about part 3

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Yes, what you are saying makes perfect sense. It's basically a 'does the ends justify the means' thing. It's interesting - we have that discussion all the time as societies when it comes to such things as war or revolution, as you've mentioned. But here it is distilled down to an individual level.

Is society any the poorer for Alyona being murdered? And regardless, does anyone have the right to take her life even if she did harm others through her actions? And what does it all mean for poor Lizaveta who got caught in the crossfire. (The Lizaveta it 'The Brothers K' got a raw deal too - Dostoyevsky didn't like someone of that name?!!) (hide spoiler)]

Re discussion about Part 4

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Re: Rodya - I wonder if he truly actually believes in his own theories, or if he just created those to justify the murders to himself. If he were so certain he was doing society a favour by getting rid of a 'louse' like Alyona, then surely his body would not betray him by making him as ill as he is?

It's interesting to think about 'punishment', and what it means. Because although Rodya is being punished, it isn't in a way that society would be prepared to accept. They would want 'justice' served, which I guess is shipping Rodya off to Siberia. But which, if either, is likely to lead to reformation? And is it possible for Rodya to reform? At this point, I'm not convinced he wouldn't commit another murder in the future if he felt the ends justified the means.

Re: Lazarus - I don't really know. I noted the two references which makes me think it is significant. The wiki page for it speaks of Lazarus experiencing illness before his death, and the then being raised. Maybe I need to go read the passages in the bible, but I'm not overly sure how it relates to Raskolnikov at this point. If I had to guess, I'd possibly be thinking on the 'dual' personalities within Rodya and that the death of one part will lead to the emergence of the other??! I dunno.

Re: education - I forgot until re-reading a couple of passages that Marmeledov was an official, and as such would have educated his family. (hide spoiler)]

I'm done, and now I'm sifting through what I thought and what does it all mean.

Good job, RitaSkeeter. With all preps and celebrations going on, I got stuck in the beginning of chapter 5. Will take it up later today or tomorrow.

Part I and II
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Part I for me picked up pace very subtly, Fyodor's way of portraying the protagonist and his circumstances is commendable.

Don't know particularly why but I found the dream sequence much more disturbing than the actual murder.

His play with words and a couple of really good quotes made me like the ending much more than the beginning.

I really enjoyed part II right from the start, the way anxiety and guilt takes over Raskolnikov's life.

The part where the doctor, his friend are discussing the murder while the fiance showcases his shallowness and when Raskolnikov almost admits to the murder in the bar, I found those bits amusing.

Now I think that in giving his money to Marmeladov's surviving family he got the sense of penance that he was looking for, taking off the burden to confess to the murder.

Very interesting so far, hope it keeps getting better. (hide spoiler)]

Dj wrote: "Part I and II

Part I for me picked up pace very subtly, Fyodor's way of portraying the protagonist and his circumstances is commendable.

Don't know particularly why but I found the dream sequenc..."

Is the dream sequence you refer to the one with the horse, Dj? If so, I found that very upsetting/disturbing also. Poor horse.

Yea the horse one only, that was simply brutal.

Finished! I need a moment to sort my thoughts about the book. Will also react to your earlier comments, RitaSkeeter. Overall very glad I read it, I enjoyed it a lot, it was definitely extremely interesting!

Nina wrote: "Finished! I need a moment to sort my thoughts about the book. Will also react to your earlier comments, RitaSkeeter. Overall very glad I read it, I enjoyed it a lot, it was definitely extremely int..."

Look forward to hearing your thoughts!!

RitaSkeeter wrote: "Part 5
"

Haha, I love the way you put this!
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As I said earlier, to me all the characters are more representing certain values or types or characters more than actually being an individual person. For me that is also the reason why - apart from Rodja himself - none of the characters has for example ethical struggles or doubts or any such which makes us human. Sonja for me is representing the 'good woman', she is devoting herself to Rodja no matter what and will follow him no matter where.

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Regarding the title:
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I started thinking about this when reading the discussion between Sonja and Rodja where he confesses to her. I read the German translation of the book. The most common translation of the title would translate as 'Guilt and Atonement' to English. The atonement aspect is very present in Sonja's speech when she talks to him about starting his painful way. I found the difference between 'Crime and Punishment' and "Guilt and Atonement' quite striking. The first to me is a very legal expression. You commit a crime and the legal system will punish you. Guilt and Atonement, however, has a strong ethical/moral note, even religious. I also realized this this difference in the translation might be why, to your earlier comment, RitaSkeeter, on when the punishment will come, I answered that for me his punishment is his suffering.

I tried to figure out what the Russian title is but couldn't get very far. Wikipedia has indeed a section about the translation of the title and this difference between C&P and G&A, however, I could not figure out what the Russian words are like. Wikipedia said 'somewhere in between' ... The rest of Internet wasn't very helpful either. Gonna ask a Russian friend. Any Russian speaking person reading this thread?
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RitaSkeeter wrote: "Re discussion about Part 4"

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Re Rodja: I agree. I don't think that he really thinks that he serves society as a whole. As I understand it it is more that he considers to have great opportunities in the future if only he can get past this first step and for that he needs the money. In other words: he thinks himself a better person than Aljona and thus his life as being more valuable than hers. This actually reminds me of an article I read earlier today about the fact that it's not about what we want but about what we are willing to suffer to get there. The point of the article is that every success has its price and the question of whether we are willing to pay this price will be the most important determinant in whether we will achieve it. Rodja wanted to get rich and famous but he was not willing to work hard for it. So, he decided to kill someone less valuable which in his reasoning was not a crime because she was a bad person.

And I fully agree, until the end this hadn't changed really. Even on the last pages it is still mentioned that he doesn't consider the murder a crime. Doesn't that imply that under the same circumstances he might do it again.

Re Lazarus: The resurrection is referred to again at the end of the novel. Somehow I got the impression that Dostoevsky implies the 'new' Rodja to be born. But I didn't really agree. In my opinion he didn't change. He still didn't see that he had done wrong, despite the fact that he accepted his punishment.
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Re the title

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That is so interesting!! It is such a small shift in language, but completely changes the lens I look at the book through. If the book had been titled 'guilt and atonement' then I don't think I would have had some of a troubles I had, as it really does shift my thinking about the book. Seems silly to think a small word change could change my view of a book so much, but really it does.

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Re part 5 discussion

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I had highlighted a couple of quotes that demonstrates what you are saying perfectly.

"Existence alone had ever been enough for him; he had always wanted more".

and

"If only fate had sent him repentance - burning repentance, that breaks the heart, that drives sleep away, such repentance as torments he into dreaming of the noose or the watery deeps! Oh, he would have been glad of it! Torments and tears - that, too, was life. But he did not repent of his crime."

That one was just before the end.

I don't see any real guilt or atonement still from Rodja, and so I still don't really get the Lazarus references. It's obviously important because it comes up again and again, but the meaning just isn't clear to me. (hide spoiler)]

Done till part IV, this is some book! The strength of the female characters and the delusion of the male characters is marvelous.
Hopefully will wrap it up by tomorrow. Will discuss post completion.

Looking forward to your comments! Also read some more about the Lazarus references, Wikipedia has some interesting stuff on it. Will post some hopefully tomorrow.

And finally done!
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Throughout the book I hardly felt any sympathy for the protagonist Rodya and didn't even like him that much but such powerful writing by Fyodor Dostoevsky managed to spin my thoughts and I liked the guy with the last sentence of the book (end of part VI).
Complex characters each and everyone of them and a story that really makes you think.
A really nice read this early in the year, will discuss it over the weekend.
RitaSkeeter and Nina, it was fun being a part of this segment of buddy reads, I really enjoyed the book.
Cheers.
Happy Reading! (hide spoiler)]

Dj wrote: "And finally done!

Throughout the book I hardly felt any sympathy for the protagonist Rodya and didn't even like him that much but such powerful writing by Fyodor Dostoevsky managed to spin my thou..."

Glad to hear that you enjoyed it so much! And I agree with you on Rodja, somehow my feelings towards him changed as well. Though then in the epilogue I disliked him again.

I researched a bit about the Lazarus references, I can't remember anymore where I read it, I thought on Wikipedia but on double checking that was not the case. Anyways, what I remember is the following: The reference of Lazarus and his resurrection is indeed meant to Rodja but also Sonya. Both 'resurrect' in a (morally) better person, and that is thanks to their love. Their love towards each other helps them to get away from evil (whether chosen - Rodja - or not - Sonja) and be cleaned. This is also why the epilogue is necessary, to show this.

To be honest: I am still not convinced by the epilogue. I didn't like it. I understand that some loose ends needed to be dealt with and fine to have an epilogue that ties them together, like Dunja and Rasumichin getting married and Sonja following Rodja to Siberia, but I still find that there are some inconsistencies all of a sudden when Rodja doesn't seem to have any remorse. What is the whole resurrection point then? He might do it all again. Thus, in my opinion, he didn't become a better person.

What I also found interesting is the explanation of the structure of the novel, amazing how well Dostoevsky managed to construct this complex story additionally in such an artful structure:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_a...

Nina wrote: "Regarding the title:

I started thinking about this when reading the discussion between Sonja and Rodja where he confesses to her. I read the German translation of the book. The most common transla..."

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That's quite interesting, the title translation. I guess as a general rule some part of the book is always lost to translation. It can never quite put out the original words that the author used.

To be fair I don't see any guilt or atonement on Rodya's part unless we count the epilogue in which he cries and accepts his love for Sonia and opens up to the convicts and remains less secluded.
Sonia's character for me was much deeper and closer to the title Guilt & Atonement and even the Lazarus reference.

P.S. Would like to share this..
I coincidentally went to St. Petersburg in Sept last year and had a 3 day stay there, planning my itinerary there was a chance to go to a church and cemetery where Fyodor Dostoevsky is buried.
I am not too keen on cemeteries but after reading this book I somehow regret not paying homage to the author. (hide spoiler)]

Dj wrote: "And finally done!

Throughout the book I hardly felt any sympathy for the protagonist Rodya and didn't even like him that much but such powerful writing by Fyodor Dostoevsky managed to spin my thou..."

I've really enjoyed reading along with you both as well :) I get a lot more depth of understanding when able to hear other people's take on a book, and what stands out to them as important.

We should do it again some time with another book!

I still disliked Rodja at the end. I wouldn't say I hated him, but I didn't feel any real empathy or liking for him.

Re: the Lazarus discussion

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The last part of your post, Nina, is why the Lazarus connections confused me so much. I understand what they are meant to mean, but I am struggling to see it because I don't see any real remorse or whatever from Rodja. I understand his body betrays him as times, and indicates a level of guilt, but I'm not sure he ever intellectually accepts true responsibility for his actions.

I also struggle to see the Lazarus connection with Sonja. This is really wholly and completely about me seeing the book through a particular 21st century lens, but I have a problem with Dostoyevsky lumping her in with Rodja as needing moral resurrection. Rodja was a murderous scumbag who committed murder purely for self-interest and self-advancement.

Sonja was prostituting, sure. But this was to ensure her family were fed and had a roof over their heads. Everything she did was for her family, not for herself. She wouldn't be prostituting had her father not been drinking the money away.

When she moves to Siberia she is still the same - everything she does is for others (then for Rodja and the other prisoners). Due to the lack of women in Siberia she was able to gain alternate work that wasn't available to her previously.

I see Sonja as a victim of circumstance who was doing what she could to survive and ensure her family survived. Should she have remained 'moral' and as a result, she and her family starve?


Edit to add: Hmm. Not sure I've really made my point, and to be fair Imot even sure what my point is. I think I'm just reacting to Dostoyevsky lumping in Sonja - who is basically a good person doing the best she can - with Rodja who has good aspects, but made very bad choices.

I dunno what I'm saying really...

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@Dj - envious of the St P'burg trip. I'd love to see it one day.

RitaSkeeter wrote: "@Dj - envious of the St P'burg trip. I'd love to see it one day."
It's totally worth a visit, river Neva is gorgeous, on a lighter note I can guess why Rodya didn't commit suicide by drowning in it.

RitaSkeeter wrote: "Dj wrote: "And finally done!

Throughout the book I hardly felt any sympathy for the protagonist Rodya and didn't even like him that much but such powerful writing by Fyodor Dostoevsky managed to s..."

Yes, great idea! I also enjoyed it a lot. It made me definitely think more about the book! Totally in for another one!

RitaSkeeter wrote: "I still disliked Rodja at the end. I wouldn't say I hated him, but I didn't feel any real empathy or liking for him.

Re: the Lazarus discussion



The last part of your post, Nina, is why the Laza..."

Oh, I so agree with you, RitaSkeeer!
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I absolutely see Sonja as a victim of circumstances, she gives literally all she has for her family. And probably even knows that it won't make much of a difference. She cannot change the source of their problems. Rodja, however, decides to commit a crime. Because he considers himself entitled. What I found interesting in this explanation was that apparently it was their love to each other that made them 'resurrect'.
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