Book Nook Cafe discussion
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An American Tragedy- May-June 2014
Discussion Questions -- may contain spoilers•What is important about the title? How does the novel relate to historical events and persons?
•What are the conflicts in An American Tragedy? What types of conflict (physical, moral, intellectual, or emotional) did you notice in this novel?
•How does Theodore Dreiser reveal character in An American Tragedy?
•How does An American Tragedyrepresent American Naturalism? What are the features?
•What are some themes in the story? How do they relate to the plot and characters?
•What are some symbols in An American Tragedy? How do they relate to the plot and characters?
•Are the characters consistent in their actions? Which of the characters are fully developed? How? Why?
•Do you find the characters likable? Are the characters persons you would want to meet?
•How does social class figure into the novel?
•Does the novel end the way you expected? How? Why?
•What is the central/primary purpose of the story? Is the purpose important or meaningful?
•What the city in which the novel is initially set? How essential is the setting to the novel? Could the story have taken place anywhere else?
•What is the role of women in the text?
•Where is Roberta murdered?
•Would you recommend this novel to a friend?
Movie TriviaShelley Winters developed mixed feeling toward director George Stevens for making her look so unglamorous alongside Elizabeth Taylor. Her role, moreover, typecast her in mousy or brassy parts for years. Winters said she drove white Cadillac convertibles (similar to Taylor's in the film) for years afterward to compensate for her intense feelings of inferiority while making the film.
Although the film was released in 1951, it was shot in 1949. Paramount Studios had already released its blockbuster Sunset Blvd. (1950) in 1950 when this film wrapped. The studio did not want what was sure to be another blockbuster in this film competing for Oscars with "Sunset Blvd." so it waited until 1951 to release this film, which actually pleased director George Stevens, as he would use the extra time to spend editing the film. As it turned out, the two films would have competed against each other at the Oscars had they been released the same year.
Anne Revere, who played Montgomery Clift's mother, was a descendant of American Revolution hero Paul Revere, but she became another victim of the McCarthy-era "Red Scare" blacklisting because of her supposed "liberal" politics. After this film she did not appear in another movie until 1970.
Elizabeth Taylor's "White lilac" gown became a fashion sensation and sold many copies and patterns.
When George goes to the movie theater, the poster outside indicates the attraction is an "Ivan Moffat production"; Ivan Moffat was an associate producer on this film, and was also a member of director George Stevens's motion picture unit during World War II.
George Stevens often referred to Technicolor as having an "Oh what a beautiful morning" quality to it, something completely inappropriate to the tone of this film, hence it was made in black and white.
Elizabeth Taylor's and Montgomery Clift's beach idyll was actually filmed in October at Lake Tahoe, California. Crew members had hosed snow off the ground prior to filming.
*****The trivia items below may give away important plot points.
Based upon the true story of Chester Gillette, who murdered his pregnant girlfriend in 1906. He was tried, convicted and executed in 1908. The ghost of the actual victim, Grace Brown, is said to haunt the house where she lived in upstate New York
Montgomery Clift readied himself for his climactic sequence by spending a night locked in the San Quentin Penitentiary death house.
You can watch the movie online on YouTube.I couldn't find the links to the whole movie. Here is what I found.
A Place in the Sun (1951) Part 1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mdru0...
A Place in the Sun (1951) Part 2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PF8z...
A Place in the Sun (1951) Part 3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_iCVF...
A Place in the Sun (1951) Part 5
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFQ9T...
A Place in the Sun (1951) Part 7
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2Jy6...
A Place in the Sun (1951) Part 8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftX1k...
A Place in the Sun (1951) Part 12 (the end)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUzk2...
Alias Reader wrote: "Anne Revere, who played Montgomery Clift's mother, was a descendant of American Revolution hero Paul Revere, but she became another victim of the McCarthy-era "Red Scare" blacklisting because of her supposed "liberal" politics. After this film she did not appear in another movie until 1970. .."Revere played Elizabeth Taylor's mother in National Velvet. I fell in love with Revere in that film. Good actress. That film was based on National Velvet by Enid Bagnold. Good book, too.
YA!! I was just wondering when we are starting : )
Alias Reader wrote: "You can watch the movie online on YouTube.I couldn't find the links to the whole movie. Here is what I found.
A Place in the Sun (1951) Part 1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mdru0...
A ..."
I watched the parts you have above. I wonder why didn't they put all 12?!
I just requested the DVD of A Place in the Sun. Stars:
Montgomery Clift, Elizabeth Taylor, Shelley Winters
And I hope to start reading the novel a bit tonight.
Ah, A Place in the Sun - a lot of pretty in that movie, just counting Elizabeth Taylor and Montgomery Clift!
I always thought, wrongly it turned out, that the song A Place in the Sun was from the movie. Stevie Wonder, of course, made it made years later. Still a great tune!I think I need to add this to my I-pod.
Stevie Wonder A Place in the Sun
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4T5Hr...
Here is another Youtube with the lyrics and images.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8lVP...
chapter 1 I'm reading this on the kindle. With that they tell you what has been highlighted a lot by others. I thought I would share this first highlight as I too underlined it.
"As they sang, this nondescript and indifferent street audience gazed, held by the peculiarity of such an unimportant-looking family publicly raising its collective voice against the vast skepticism and apathy of life."
I noted later on in this chapter Hester is described as "unimportant".
The other line that I underlined was "it was that old mass yearning for a likeness in all things that troubled them..."
Chapters 1-6What do you all think of Clyde? I can understand his wanting the better things in life and striving for the American Dream. However, I am guessing this Dream will turn in the Tragedy of the title.
Hegglund is too funny with his accent. He reminds me of an American version of the Artful Dodger from Dickens' Oliver. He is street wise but probably not into criminal activity.
I also like the short quick chapters. Though I do wish there was more dialogue. Still, I am enjoying it.
Has anyone else started the book?
Chapter 6I noticed in chapter 1 the Griffiths are described as unimportant looking. I noted how the patrons of the hotel are described. "This, then, most certainly was what it meant to be rich, to be a person of consequence in the world--to have money."
It may not be right but are things really any different today ? I think not.
I was hoping to join this discussion but the library system doesn't have a copy unfortunately.
I am only on chapter 2 so unfortunately cannot comment very much yet. Maybe I can get in some reading tonight.
Lesley wrote: "I was hoping to join this discussion but the library system doesn't have a copy unfortunately."Sorry to hear that, Lesley. I used to have a pb copy, but I don't like the small print. Then I saw Amazon had it on sale for the kindle and I bought it for a few $. Maybe they will put it on sale again.
Does your library have the movie ? (A Place In The Sun)
Susan from MD wrote: "I am only on chapter 2 so unfortunately cannot comment very much yet. Maybe I can get in some reading tonight.":) I'm glad to have someone to discuss the book with. I hope others are joining in.
FYI -- Before I read a book, especially a BIG book, I look up the author.
Theodore Dreiser (8/27/1871--12/28/1945), American Novelist and journalist of the Naturalist School. Though known primarily as a novelist, Dreiser also wrote short stories, publishing his first collection, Free and Other Stories, in 1918, made up of 11 stories.
Dreiser was born in Terre Haute, Indiana. His father was a German immigrant from Mayen, Germany and his wife was from the Mennonite farming community near Dayton, Ohio. Her family disowned her for converting to Roman Catholicism in order to marry John Dreiser. Theodore was the twelfth of thirteen children (the ninth of the ten surviving). Dreiser's childhood coincided with the family's hard times. Consequently, his earliest memories included the joblessness of his father and older siblings, as well as the constant search for economic stability. In his first sixteen years he lived in five different towns in Indiana (as well as in Chicago for a few months), at times relocating only with his mother and the two other younger children, Ed and Claire. As a result, his youth was emotionally unstable, and he had few educational opportunities, which was a special hardship for such a bookish boy. This time was further darkened by the strict Roman Catholic training he received in German American parochial schools, an experience that informed his later critique of Catholicism and deeply influenced his quest for alternative forms of religious experience. He graduated from High School in Warsaw, Indiana, and also attended Indiana University from 1889 to 1890 then dropped out.
As a journalist for Chicago Globe newspaper, and the St. Louis Globe-Democrat, he wrote articles on writers Nathaniel Hawthorne, William Dean Howells, Israel Zangwill, John Burroughs and interviewed public figures such as Andrew Carnegie, Marshall Field, Thomas Edison, Theodore Thomas, Lillian Nordica, Emilia E. Barr, Philip Armour and Alfred Stieglitz.
Dreiser was a committed socialist, and wrote several non-fiction books on political issues. These included Dreiser Looks at Russia (1928), the result of his 1927 trip to the Soviet Union, and two books presenting a critical perspective on capitalist America, Tragic America (1931) and America Is Worth Saving (1941). His vision of capitalism and a future world order with a strong American military dictate combined with the harsh criticism of the latter, made him unpopular within the official circles. Dreiser's biographer Jerome Loving notes that his political activities since the early 1930s had "clearly been in concert with ostensible communist aims with regard to the working class." Dreiser officially joined the Communist Party shortly before his death, on December 28, 1945 in Hollywood at the age of 74.
The Naturalist School was a literary movement, from 1880s to 1940s, that used detailed realism to suggest that social conditions, heredity, and environment had inescapable force in shaping human character. Naturalistic writers were influenced by Charles Darwin's theory of evolution. Naturalistic works also exposed the dark harshness of life, including poverty, racism, violence, prejudice, disease, corruption, prostitution, and filth. As a result, naturalistic writers were frequently criticized for focusing too much on human vice and misery.
Dreiser's love life:
1893: Dreiser proposed to Sara White.
1898: Dreiser married to Sara White on 12/28/1898.
1909: Dreiser separated from his wife, due to Dreiser’s infatuations with Thelma Cudlipp (a teenage daughter of a work colleague), but he didn’t divorce Sara White.
1913: Dreiser began another romantic relationship with actress Kyra Markham – another who was much younger than him.
1919: Dreiser met his cousin, Helen Richardson, with whom he had an affair.
1944: Dreiser married his cousin, Helen Richardson, on June 13, 1944.
** I read somewhere online that he waited to write the book, until he found an article that he could base his story on. My question is: why didn't he use his personal life? He certainly cheated on his multiple wives, lovers, and also impregnated those women while he was married?!
Dreiser's Literary career:
1. Sister Carrie, 1900
Portraying a changing society, he wrote about a young woman who flees rural life for the city (Chicago) and struggles with poverty, complex relationships with men, and prostitution. It was considered controversial because of moral objections to his featuring a country girl who pursues her dreams of fame and fortune through relationships with men. The book has since acquired a considerable reputation. It has been called the "greatest of all American urban novels."
2. Jennie Gerhardt, 1911
Jennie Gerhardt is a destitute young woman. While working in a hotel in Columbus, Ohio, Jennie meets George Brander, a United State Senator, who becomes infatuated with her. He helps her family and declares his wish to marry her. Jennie, grateful for his benevolence, agrees to sleep with him. He dies before they marry, and Jennie is pregnant. She gives birth to a daughter, Vesta, and moves to Cleveland with her mother. There she finds work as a lady's maid in a prominent family. In this home, she meets Lester Kane, a prosperous manufacturer's son. Jennie falls in love with him, impressed by his strong will and generosity. She leaves her daughter in Cleveland and travels to New York with Kane. He does not know of her illegitimate daughter and wants to marry Jennie. But because of their difference in class, he anticipates his family's disapproval and decides to take her as his mistress. fter three years, Jennie tells him that Vesta is her daughter. Kane does not yield to his family's pressure to leave Jennie. But, after his father's death, he learns that his inheritance of a substantial part of the family business is conditioned on his leaving her. On hearing the will's terms, Jennie demands they separate for his sake.
3. The Financier, 1912
The First volume of The Trilogy of Desire This powerful novel explores the dynamics of the financial world during the Civil War and after the stock-market panic caused by the Great Chicago Fire. This powerful novel explores the dynamics of the financial world during the Civil War and after the stock-market panic caused by the Great Chicago Fire.
4. The Titan, 1914
A portrait of naked power and money in Chicago's go-go years of the late 1800's. Greed, women, money, power - the usual intoxicants of Capitalist society.
5. The Genius, 1915
A portrait of naked power and money in Chicago's go-go years of the late 1800's. Greed, women, money, power - the usual intoxicants of Capitalist society. Dreiser was an American novelist and journalist who the naturalist school and is known for portraying characters whose value lies not in their moral code, but in their persistence against all obstacles, and literary situations that more closely resemble studies of nature than tales of choice and agency.
6. American Tragedy, 1925
The book is based on a REAL incident that occurred in upstate New York in 1906, when a factory worker named Chester Gillette murdered a young woman on Big Moose Lake in the Adirondacks. The woman, Grace Brown, had been pregnant with Gillette's child. In a well-publicized trial, Gillette was found guilty of first-degree murder and sentenced to death. His conviction was upheld on appeal. After Governor Charles Hughes refused to grant a stay of execution, Gillette was put to death on March 31, 1908.
7. Chains: Lesser Novels and Stories, 1927
Collection of fifteen short stories.
8. The Bulwark, 1946
Posthumous novel about the story of Quaker faith in the conflict of twentieth century materialism.
9. The Stoic, Trilogy of Desire #3; 1947
This is the conclusion to A Trilogy of Desire, his series of novels about Frank Cowperwood, a businessman based on the real-life streetcar tycoon Charles Yerkes. Dreiser completed The Stoic only days before his death in 1945 and the book was published posthumously.
Thank you, Carol !I also own but have not read The Financier. I picked up a hardcover edition at a used book store.
The Financier, 1912
The First volume of The Trilogy of Desire This powerful novel explores the dynamics of the financial world during the Civil War and after the stock-market panic caused by the Great Chicago Fire. This powerful novel explores the dynamics of the financial world during the Civil War and after the stock-market panic caused by the Great Chicago Fire.
The Financierby Theodore Dreiser
Carol wrote: The Naturalist School was a literary movement, from 1880s to 1940s, that used detailed realism to suggest that social conditions, heredity, and environment had inescapable force in shaping human character..."I've only read 6 chapters but I can definitely see how this is playing into his writing and the character of Clyde.
Alias Reader wrote: " chapter 1 I'm reading this on the kindle. With that they tell you what has been highlighted a lot by others. I thought I would share this first highlight as I too underlined it.
"As they san..."
I noticed the use of the word "unimportant" too and thought it very telling that it was used. I look forward to see how the story evolves.
Yes, the use of the word unimportant reminded me of another book, Invisible Man. How certain segments of the population are rendered invisible or unimportant by the majority. Sad.
We meet 12 year old Clyde, on the sidewalk with his parents who are street preachers. He realizes that he doesn't want to live this way anymore. I find this interesting because my church and I support many missionaries, but today they are ministering, teaching to people in third world countries. Not just the Bible but also ways to help build in their "communities." Regarding educating your children, both Clyde's parents were so focused on missionary work that they neglected their own children's education. Education is brought to children in third world countries by missionaries, but those children who come with their parents must be educated by someone the family brings. One family that just went back, brought "grandma" who will educate them. (She was a missionary years ago.)
I think the Griffith's parents are so focused, that their mission work is more important than keeping an eye on your teen age daughter. I can't believe that any parent in the middle of a city, at night, would let their daughter out and alone. Also never checking on her until 1 am? And then, their naive daughter runs away with some unknown guy who will take her virginity and later, drop her off some place where she knows nobody! No loving parent would do that! Not even Asa and Elvira Griffiths. But in Dreiser's world, taking some young girl's virginity is his norm, so that makes more sense to me, than missionaries losing their virgin daughter!
This is one family that I have supported.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgi1SZ...
Garrett Girls in Senegal, 2012 (5:52)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZcO5a2...
Corey and Katie Garrett (4:20)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ru_0Vb...
Garrett Ministry Film (2012) (5:15)
This type is tiny. I think that tomorrow I will return it and get another edition --
An American Tragedy by Theodore Dreiser
Carol wrote: Regarding educating your children, both Clyde's parents were so focused on missionary work that they neglected their own children's education. Education is brought to children in third world countries by missionaries, but those children who come with their parents must be educated by someone the family brings. One family that just went back, brought "grandma" who will educate them. (She was a missionary years ago.).."-----------------
It seems the parents live in an idolized world. They believe "God will provide". So they don't think ahead to the future. Hence the kids are uneducated and often there is not enough food for the family.
I sort of sympathize with Clyde. All around him he sees what education and planning get people. He sees what wealth provides. I'm not saying that money is everything but it seems the parents are at the other extreme. The life they are providing their children made the daughter run away and Clyde also wanting to leave.
What I don't get is why they would still want to move to Denver when the daughter just went missing. I would want to stay in the same place so the daughter could find them and they also could keep looking for her. However, once again, their focus seems to be on preaching and not on what is right in front of them. I guess they mean well but it clearly is not working for this family.
Carol wrote: "This is one family that I have help supported.Garrett Girls Film (2012) "
Thanks so much for sharing this, Carol. Are the people helping the villagers from your church?
I imagine it will be quite an enriching experience for them.
Corey and Katie Garrett ----------
Do you know them, Carol ?
Thank you for the videos. They bring a new to me aspect to the topic.
I don't know a thing about Senegal. Is it safe for
Corey and Katie?
I'll have to read up on the CIA website.
https://www.cia.gov/library/publicati...
When I see people with so little of the basic necessities of life I feel terrible complaining about the dumb everyday things that one deals with.
Up to Chapter 10Well it didn't take long for Clyde to fall in with the wrong crowd.
The pull to fit in and be like everyone else is quite powerful.
Edit-- I was thinking about this today and I was wondering if he so easily went astray from the morals that his parents tried to instill in him because they were so very strict. I think when you are overly strict it's natural for children to rebel.
Alias Reader wrote: "Corey and Katie Garrett ----------
Do you know them, Carol ?
Thank you for the videos. They bring a new to me aspect to the topic.
I don't know a thing about Senegal. Is it safe for
Corey ..."
Yes I know them, they are from our church. Every 7 years is their sabbatical, a big switch for them was last year, which for the girls was a major change (way of living). Corey's mom was a missionary (she was at the end of one video). It is a very challenging way to live. The people there love their family as well as crops, basic necessities. They have tried various ways to reach them through bible readings, but unfortunately they have not been successful. And so, I pray for them.
We have 3 missionaries abroad: the Garrett's in Senegal (since 2000); Robert and Becky Cooley in Peru; Steve and Pat in Vietnam. And 2 in the states: Kit and Tricia in Northampton, MA; and a Crisis Pregnancy Center in Unionville, CT.
Re:
An American Tragedy by Theodore DreiserYEAH!! I got the larger print, but unfortunately, I can't read much of it right now. A store down the street is closing shop, selling Benjamin Moore paints for a lot less $$. (It's a husband/wife who run it and have decided to retire and move to South Carolina. They are really nice people.) So we bought beautiful paint! My husband and daughter started painting last night (she chose dark grey for the walls -"its very modern" according to her.) My husband also wants to make our other master bedroom (with a high cathedral ceiling) painted --both walls and ceilings. Much bigger project. So we have our work cut out for us before my youngest arrives home this Friday.
I will catch up when things get back to normal.
So glad you will be able to join us in the group read. No hurry. Happy painting !
Up to Chapter 16I feel a bit sorry for Clyde. He is so naïve and doesn't see how Hortense is just using him.
I have read through chapter 12.Alias, I agree that his parents' strictness contributed to his desire to rebel or at least to experience something more of life. But beyond the strictness, I was struck by the lack of joy or fun. What an odd life those children lead with little/no education and so little chance to just be children and play and learn.
Although I understand his desire to have nice things and be with his friends, I do feel sad that he doesn't give more to his siblings at least. They are stuck as he was yet he does not seem to help much. I can see not giving all his money to his parents but even something to help his brother and younger sister would make me feel better about him! Maybe because he spends his money on things that don't last or that are to some extent relatively unimportant.
Anyway, not loving the girls so far (the friends I mean, not his sisters). They all seem rather vacuous!
Susan from MD wrote: Although I understand his desire to have nice things and be with his friends, I do feel sad that he doesn't give more to his siblings at least...."Yes. The lack of some desire to help his family financially is odd.
It's a dreary day today. I hope to do a bit of an exercise walk and they read some more today. I am about to start chapter 16.
I also picked of the DVD at the library. I hope to watch it this weekend as DVD's are weekly loans.
Susan from MD wrote: Anyway, not loving the girls so far (the friends I mean, not his sisters). They all seem rather vacuous! ..."--------------------------------
**********Spoiler comments through chapter 16*********
I agree with you. Hortense is no prize. She is just using him and he can't see it. Love is blind I guess.
But in chapter 16 when he has to choose between the $50 in his pocket for Hortense's coat and helping his sister he chooses Hortense. So much for blood is thicker that water.
He lies, borrows from his friends and he thinks of pawning his watch all for a girl who is deceiving him.
Book 1Wow! What an ending to Book 1.
I'll wait to comment until some of you catch up.
Alias Reader wrote: "Susan from MD wrote: Anyway, not loving the girls so far (the friends I mean, not his sisters). They all seem rather vacuous! ..."--------------------------------
**********Spoiler comments thro..."
Finished through chapter 16 - SPOILERS
OMG! What is wrong with this idiot?
Seriously, he uses the $50 for this bimbo who is essentially prostituting herself for a coat and fleecing him while treating him badly, rather than helping his pregnant sister and desperate mother?
When I got to the line in chapter 16: "Might he not, later, be punished for a thing like this?" I was thinking "I can only hope, you selfish creature."
I understand that he has been poor and is enjoying the fact that he has the money for some nicer things. I understand that he is young and obsessed with this girl who is stringing him along. I understand that he is rebelling against his parents. I get it. But to not help when his family really needs it is just sad.
Adjusted for inflation, the $125 in 1925 (when the book was published) is about $1700 in 2014. I wouldn't spend $1700 on a coat for myself that I would probably wear for the rest of my life! She will probably wear this coat for a few months and then "need" something new. I cannot even imagine conniving to get someone to buy me a $1700 coat.
OK, I've vented ... going back to the book now.
Are you finding the book a little slow? It's like Cider House Rules in that I feel like every thought and action is explained to the nth degree. Now I know why these books are so long - they seem repetitive to me and state the obvious. I mean, I think there are 3 chapters on this stupid coat - when it was obvious from when she first sees it (I think in chapter 13) that she will get him to buy it for her and that she has several guys on the string. Maybe it's me, but I sometimes find myself saying: 'got it, let's move on now'.
I totally agree with you about the coat, Susan. I will give Clyde a little bit of a pass though because of his age. The lure of material things is quite strong, even for people that are adults. Just look at the things people do for money or fame. Reality TV comes to mind. Also how often do you see 80 year old rich men with 20 year old women?Also Clyde doesn't seem to think for himself. He easily goes along with his gang of friends even when he thinks what they are doing is wrong.
As to the writing in Book one, I agree. I think the lack of dialogue slows the story down, too. I was happy to see that the start of Book Two has much more dialogue. I hope that continues. I've read five chapters in Book Two.
I wonder if books were just written differently back then. Dickens big books come to mind. Though he wrote in for magazines in installments so I can understand the repetition to remind readers of what they read between installments. Also he may have been paid by the word. Still, I am a fan of his books. I can read certain sentences and words over and over they are so delicious. Without TV or computers I wonder if people had different attention spans for more slower more descriptive books then we do now.
Deb (Madrano), who is away visiting family and not posting at this time, could probably address the classics and the writing style better as she is a big fan.
potential spoilersI get that he's young and if there were no family problems or if we didn't know about his family's financial/health situation, I would give him a pass. I also think that once one becomes an adult and is making his way, that person has the right make choices in how to spend that money. I know I tend to spend more than I should on "stuff".
But, he saw his sister. He knows that his mother is pawning/selling anything remotely of value. That's where he loses me. If they were not in the picture, then I might roll my eyes at him being foolish, but I wouldn't care as much that he's not being prudent with his money. But, he's making a choice - and he's choosing a greedy girl over his pregnant/sick sister.
On repetition:
What's interesting is that I don't mind Dickens being repetitive - in fact, I often don't notice it until I stop to think about it. I think it's because I don't feel spoon-fed. Maybe it's because the language is older/richer/not as modern, so the words give me more to think about.
Relative to Dickens, Cider House and this one are more modern and the language more common. Maybe that's why it feels repetitive. I feel a little like my intelligence is being insulted - the concepts are not that difficult and the writing was clear the first time around, I don't need it twice more!
Just finished book 1 - SPOILERSWow, that was quite a finish! What a crazy turn of events. I do give Clyde credit for being smart enough to realize that "borrowing" the car was a bad idea; unfortunately, he didn't quite have enough backbone to not join the party.
He is definitely a follower rather than a leader with this group. It's sad that he is so desperate for friendship and for this girl that he's willing to do things that he knows are wrong - he can't seem to stop himself from making bad decisions, even when he acknowledges the risks and the consequences to others. He seems to be smart enough to reason things out but too weak to follow through if it means that he has to go against his friends.
Potential spoilersFROM @28 above: What I don't get is why they would still want to move to Denver when the daughter just went missing. I would want to stay in the same place so the daughter could find them and they also could keep looking for her. However, once again, their focus seems to be on preaching and not on what is right in front of them. I guess they mean well but it clearly is not working for this family.
This was interesting, I thought, that they would potentially move without the daughter. In some ways, it seemed like they wrote her off. Maybe they thought she had gotten married and that her fate was sealed, whatever happened. Sort of a "she made her bed ..." situation.
Adding to that when Esta returns and the mother won't tell the father. It made me think that perhaps the father wanted to move in part because of the daughter leaving and "shaming" them (mainly him). It was interesting reading about the "levels" of poverty - when the mother was looking for a room in places that even the Griffiths would have thought a step down. There it did remind me of Dickens, who is so good at getting into those different "types" of poor people and poor neighborhoods.
Susan from MD wrote: "Just finished book 1 - SPOILERSWow, that was quite a finish! What a crazy turn of events. I do give Clyde credit for being smart enough to realize that "borrowing" the car was a bad idea; unfortu..."
----
Totally agree. He goes along with the crowd even when he knows it is not the right thing to do. The drinking, prostitutes, & taking the car are all things he knew were wrong and he did it anyway to be part of the group.
Book 2 Chapter 8When they talked of the church people not approving of dancing, I couldn't help but think of the movie, Footloose. :)
Book 2 Up to Chapter 8With all the talk of Clyde resembling Gilbert Griffiths I have to think this is going to be a plot element. Maybe Gilbert will do something and pretend to be Clyde since he is so insecure about his own place with his father. Perhaps Clyde will do something wrong and say it was Gilbert. Either way I do not see a happy Patty Duke Show situation. :)
What do you think ? Is the resemblance going to be important or is it a red herring?
Alias Reader wrote: "Book 2 Chapter 8When they talked of the church people not approving of dancing, I couldn't help but think of the movie, Footloose. :)"
Me too!
Alias Reader wrote: "Book 2 Up to Chapter 8With all the talk of Clyde resembling Gilbert Griffiths I have to think this is going to be a plot element. Maybe Gilbert will do something and pretend to be Clyde since h..."
I'm leaning more toward Gilbert doing something and blaming Clyde. I might have been more likely to think Clyde implicates Gilbert in something coming off of Book 1, but Clyde seems to have grown up a bit in Book 2. He seems more cautious, though he does seem to be falling into old patterns with a girl and dancing! If he's smart, he will stay on the straight & narrow for a while to establish himself.
Honestly, I think he should have stayed in Chicago and figured things out there. He's now in this very complicated situation - socially and at work - as "the nephew". At least at the hotel/club, he had a better sense of where he stood. My sympathy for him is coming back - I felt for him at the beginning of the book because he was dragged into the missionary work of his parents and because his home life seemed so joyless. He really lost me toward the end of Book 1 with his disregard for his family and "follow the (irresponsible) crowd" attitude. But, I'm giving him a second chance now since he seems to have realized how selfish he was and he regrets the many mistakes he made.
Gilbert definitely makes me nervous - if I was Clyde, I'd pack up and leave! Perhaps if Clyde had greater self-esteem or social grace, I'd have less fear for him.
I hope Clyde can keep the "social climbing" monkey off his back, but I fear that will return as he begins to socialize. Unfortunately, he seems to be falling in with people who will tempt him to go astray.
Susan from MD wrote: Gilbert definitely makes me nervous - if I was Clyde, I'd pack up and leave! Perhaps if Clyde had greater self-esteem or social grace, I'd have less fear for him..."He has to worry about the police after the car accident. At least his uncle didn't need to check references.
I am worried about Gilbert, too. Maybe he will learn about the accident and somehow use his likeness to get Clyde out of the way.
Gilbert is really insecure. He has everything yet is worried about his uneducated cousin stealing his thunder.
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In Cold Blood (other topics)Sister Carrie (other topics)
An American Tragedy (other topics)
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Synopsis- A tremendous bestseller when it was published in 1925, "An American Tragedy" is the culmination of Theodore Dreiser's elementally powerful fictional art. Taking as his point of departure a notorious murder case of 1910, Dreiser immersed himself in the social background of the crime to produce a book that is both a remarkable work of reportage and a monumental study of character. Few novels have undertaken to track so relentlessly the process by which an ordinary young man becomes capable of committing a ruthless murder, and the further process by which social and political forces come into play after his arrest.
In Clyde Griffiths, the impoverished, restless offspring of a family of street preachers, Dreiser created an unforgettable portrait of a man whose circumstances and dreams of self-betterment conspire to pull him toward an act of unforgivable violence. Around Clyde, Dreiser builds an extraordinarily detailed fictional portrait of early twentieth-century America, its religious and sexual hypocrisies, its economic pressures, its political corruption. The sheer prophetic amplitude of his bitter truth-telling, in idiosyncratic prose of uncanny expressive power, continues to mark Dreiser as a crucially important American writer. "An American Tragedy," the great achievement of his later years, is a work of mythic force, at once brutal and heartbreaking.
Movie- The title of the movie is A Place In The Sun -- 1951
Stars:
Montgomery Clift, Elizabeth Taylor, Shelley Winters
Director: George Stevens