On Paths Unknown discussion

Here is the thread for the final chapter, as well as discussion of the whole book.

Finished. Every bit as good as the first time. I think for me this is very nearly a perfect book. I don't know what to say about it though. I'll wait until the rest of you arrive. (If you're already here speak up!)

OK, I did find one thing I want to noodle over out loud: chapter headings and the overall title. I get most of them, I think, but some are eluding me. (Spoiler tagging this in case anyone is still finishing up chapter 5.)

(view spoiler)[Ch 1 Initiation: Arrival, initial foray into tower. (The biologist is initiated into Area X by her inhalation of the spores from the words in the tower.)
Ch 2 Integration: The biologist and surveyor explore the tower until they find the anthropologist. The psychologist disappears. Disagreement over what to do next. (The biologist begins to discover the changes, including that she can now see the tower for what it is. She may or may not realize she is being integrated into Area X; she is not entirely truthful with what she puts in her journal on this point.)
Ch 3 Immolation: The biologist explores the ruined village and the lighthouse. The extent to which the Southern Reach has lied to its expedition members becomes clear due to the discovery of the journals. (The title appears to refer both to the destruction of the previous teams, repeatedly fed to Area X by the Southern Reach agency, and to the continued progression of the brightness consuming the biologist, which is not clear until the beginning of the next chapter.)
Ch 4 Immersion: The biologist finds the psychologist. Near miss with the thing in the reeds while returning to base camp. The surveyor confronts the biologist. (I'm a little at a loss on this one. The biologist is immersed? How, exactly? Immersion in Area X? Hasn't that already been happening? Is this only a reference to the surveyor's 'funeral'? The ongoing existence of the previous expeditions? She realizes it is her fate to be immersed as a part of Area X, and that that has already happened to all the others? Help.)
Ch 5 Dissolution: The biologist confronts the Crawler, and returns. (The biologist accepts her coming dissolution into Area X. I also note that the biologist's actual immersion occurs in this chapter, in the blue green sea of light around the Crawler.)
Annihilation The suicide command the psychologist apparently has in reserve for anyone colonized by Area X. Ironic because it would appear that to enter Area X is a kind of suicide, that no one has actually returned from Area X for a long time, if ever. The team members effectively embraced their own annihilation when they crossed the border. Also, a reference to the fact that if there is no way to stop the expansion of Area X, the entire world is indeed facing its annihilation. (hide spoiler)]

Great summary of the book, Amy. I've finished. I loved it and i'm not normally a fan of this genre. Have ordered following books from library. Want to see what happens next.

Yes, I think I'm going to have to make some space for the rest of the trilogy soon on my schedule, too.

My second time through the series. The first time I listened to the audiobooks. They were excellent readings, but I got much more out of it this time. Too much detail and subtleties for the audiobook. I made some notes and I'll be back.

I got a lot more out of it on reread; I think the first time through I was in such a state of astonishment I couldn't take it in. I'm eager to hear your thoughts.

I loved Annihilation too. I listened to it twice already. So creepy, and weird, and vivid.....

Michele wrote: "I loved Annihilation too. I listened to it twice already. So creepy, and weird, and vivid....."

It sounds like maybe I need to get the audiobooks as well; a couple people have mentioned them in this group and I have heard them recommended a few times elsewhere.

The second one didn't grab me but the Annihilation audio was really great.

Perfect, that means I only have to get one :-)

I thought Authority was the best one :-) It's read by Bronson Pinchot, who is an audiobook rockstar.

Aw, man! (Actually, that's probably for the best. Authority totally repelled my first attempt at reading; an audiobook might help me get going on it.)

I think a term like estranged doesn't begin to capture the soft sense of dread which seems to pulsate around the Zone. Equally Hrabal and Lovecraft (thankfully more the first) the area appears to offer a strange Hell- one where the Biologist is both appeased and effaced.

I was just going to say that I loved the chapter title names.

Thanks for the reminder on Hrabal, Jonfaith. I really need to get to him.

Vadermeer denies that Roadside Picnic was an influence, but that is the one that I (and quite a few others) were immediately reminded of in Annihilation. The idea of artifacts left by an alien species that operate by different and incomprehensible laws.

I'm sure there are many who rightfully groan at another mention of House of Leaves, but the descent into the tower had a similar feel of exploration combined with dread.

Wonderful; I will bump those up my shelves. (Actually, it looks like my library got another edition of House of Leaves that is on the shelf now. Maybe I should grab it tonight. My planned reading schedule is pretty much shot already anyway.)

Reflecting upon annihilation, I remain somehow muted by its uncertainty and its menace. Reading reviews here hasn't helped. After consideration, I think the altered state of the biologist removed my keel; that is a masterful stroke on the part of Mr. Vandermerr.I pondered initially that I could shrug and walk away from the Trilogy, that is no longer the case. I placed holds on the other two volumes when such are returned to the library.

Sounds like we should have a good group when we get to Authority. There's no room on the master schedule right now, but I'll see what I can do about a discussion.

Jonfaith wrote: "Reflecting upon annihilation, I remain somehow muted by its uncertainty and its menace. Reading reviews here hasn't helped. After consideration, I think the altered state of the biologist removed m..."

I see the uncertainty of the biologist’s perceptions as a reflection of the uncertainty of Area X. In the same way, the very nature of “Ghost Bird” makes her the most fit to be on the expedition. The mistake that others make is to interrogate Area X for its meaning, whereas the biologist comes to just accept it the way she accepts other natural phenomena. “… because I melted into my surroundings, could not remain separate from, apart from, objectivity a foreign land to me.”

As she enters Area X, the biologist writes how “holding the gun made me feel clumsy and odd, as if it were the wrong reaction to what might confront us.” She later begins to see that to confront it means a kind of surrender, “I had begun to realize that you had to wage a guerrilla war against whatever force had come to inhabit Area X if you wanted to fight at all. You had to fade into the landscape…”

Finally, when talking about the apparent expansion of Area X, she writes, “The terrible thing, the thought I cannot dislodge after all I have seen, is that I can no longer say with conviction that this is a bad thing. Not when looking at the pristine nature of Area X and then the world beyond, which we have altered so much... Almost anyone else might see it differently. But I am not those people. I am just the biologist; I don’t require any of this to have a deeper meaning.”

Area X is a type of pristine nature. It is beautiful and terrible; it will subsume people both peacefully and violently. And it doesn’t have a deeper meaning aside from the ones that people attempt to assign to it.

Whitney wrote: "Jonfaith wrote: "Reflecting upon annihilation, I remain somehow muted by its uncertainty and its menace. Reading reviews here hasn't helped. After consideration, I think the altered state of the bi..."

I feel that the biologist has a personal reason for being there. She wants to experience what her husband experienced and deep down she suspects that he did not really return home - what returned home was just an empty shell, a replicate.

Very astute, thank you. I remain guarded against full acceptance of the idea that the Area doesn't have a deeper meaning as its physical manifestations belie a measure of intent, its responses appear defensive. The legacy of the fortification against the sea appears disjointed from that of the Tower. I remain surprisingly intrigued by these associations and their obscured origins.

Anne wrote: " what returned home was just an empty shell, a replicate..."

Jonfaith wrote: " I remain guarded against full acceptance of the idea that the Area doesn't have a deeper meaning as its physical manifestations belie a measure of intent...."

I agree that there is likely intent as well. The Area is attempting to communicate by replicating as well as incorporating people into itself, I think in much the same way that the sentient ocean in Solaris was trying to communicate by replicating people from the minds of scientists. But I don't know that having an alien intelligence is the same as having comprehensible or compatible motives.

Whitney wrote: "I see the uncertainty of the biologist’s perceptions as a reflection of the uncertainty of Area X. In the same way, the very nature of “Ghost Bird” makes her the most fit to be on the expedition."

I agree; I think that she is, in essence, the one Southern Reach had been looking for in all their attempts to understand Area X. She is the one who is able to see what is actually happening, because she just allows it to be. At the same time, what she has understood is about to dissolve with her into Area X, and the pile of journals has me wondering whether it will do anyone any good.

I am resisting the idea of the annexation of the world to Area X as being a good one, even if the biologist thinks so. At one point even she recognizes that even though she is calling the process happening to her natural, it is deeply unnatural. (I think while she was confronting the surveyor; sorry, I don't have my book handy.) I really need to read the rest of the trilogy to try to fully understand the nature of her ending here.

Anne wrote: "She wants to experience what her husband experienced and deep down she suspects that he did not really return home - what returned home was just an empty shell, a replicate."

Most definitely. (I would say by the end that she has confirmed that suspicion.)

Jonfaith wrote: "I remain guarded against full acceptance of the idea that the Area doesn't have a deeper meaning as its physical manifestations belie a measure of intent, its responses appear defensive. The legacy of the fortification against the sea appears disjointed from that of the Tower."

I had not thought of defensive measures; that's an interesting idea. The violence from the sea at the end of the Crawler's cycles intrigued me as well, especially with the seaward border having been declared impossible to approach.

Whitney wrote: "The Area is attempting to communicate by replicating as well as incorporating people into itself, I think in much the same way that the sentient ocean in Solaris was trying to communicate by replicating people from the minds of scientists."

And that is another fascinating idea; communication is not something I had considered; just invasion (although not really mindful invasion so much as a 'this is where I am and this is what I do' kind of a vibe from Area X). I hope it is communication. I agree that a truly alien communication may be incomprehensible to us, or even totally incompatible with our ability to perceive communication.

Thank you all for these great thoughts; this is the joy of reading things with other people.

Amy (Other Amy) wrote: "At one point even she recognizes that even though she is calling the process happening to her natural, it is deeply unnatural..."

Do you think this is in the same way an ant being controlled by a fungus might call it unnatural?

I was thinking more along the lines of something outside terrestrial processes kind of unnatural, but you make a good point - the ant certainly would find the fungus unnatural as well, should it happen to observe what is happening the way the biologist does.

It occurs to me that I should acknowledge the other possibility as well, that Area X isn't an ET, which would make its processes entirely natural. That is the direction I'm leaning at the moment, but I find myself fighting it due to the dissolution of the human self. Not a logical fight, probably.

Whitney said, "But I don't know that having an alien intelligence is the same as having comprehensible or compatible motives." such gave me considerable food for thought at lunch today.

The alienness of aliens is such great material for sci-fi or weird, in this case. It hits my sense of wonder as well as giving me a deep sense of creepiness. When done well, alien aliens always seem to really creep me out. I'm thinking of Blindsight by Peter Watts most of all. But also Dawn, 2001: A Space Odyssey and the godlike unknowable aliens in Stargate Universe. Peak Creep!

Michele wrote: "Peak Creep! "

Love this :-)

I found the answers intriguing - that there really is an alienness here, something that the normal world hasn't figured out yet, something different.

I really liked the ending, that she tidied up a few things, left the future finders with what she knew or suspected and went off into the unknown. It was a good first person ending.

Overall I really liked the slow reveal of this book and how embedded we were in the biologist's mindscape.

You've named the three things that for me set this book apart. The reader is immersed in the process of discovery with the biologist, the discovery is truly an alien, other thing, and the ending is absolutely one of my all time favorites.

Consider it a defect, but I'm not normally curious on resolution. Narratives end and if I'm privy to such, fine, but I remain okay otherwise. I think it must have been the discussion here which kept pushing. It was discovered that an adjacent town had the trilogy in the stacks of their public library. I dashed over and grabbed the remaining volumes and have since leaped into Authority. This is strange news: it must be the spores.

Amy (Other Amy) wrote: "OK, I did find one thing I want to noodle over out loud: chapter headings and the overall title. I get most of them, I think, but some are eluding me. (Spoiler tagging this in case anyone is still ..."

Re: chapter 4 and immersion: (view spoiler)[I found a lot of baptism imagery in here, in the title and the surveyor's watery grave and in in the biologist becoming pretty much totally in tune with Area X. That proceeds naturally from the "Initiation" of the first chapter.

Speaking of the surveyor's death, there's also that weird repeating image of floating hands, something I've never figured out.

Re: dissolution, I see rejection in the biologist's attitude in this section. She *had* totally bought into it all, or at least thought she was in control, but the Crawler just strips her to her core and shows her how arrogant she's been. It doesn't dissolve her literally, but it dissolves all her pretensions and forces her to face/admit her failures, which she's also kept from the reader until now. And another thing: She'd also already begun holding the brightness at bay, fighting the changes to her body, by constantly harming herself.

I think there may be significance to the fact that fighting the brightness/change *does* meaning harming yourself. Perhaps the change is a way to *keep* from harming yourself. Or maybe Vandermeer is saying we just can't fight change forever. After all, the final book in the trilogy is called Acceptance.
(hide spoiler)]

Amy (Other Amy) wrote: "Aw, man! (Actually, that's probably for the best. Authority totally repelled my first attempt at reading; an audiobook might help me get going on it.)"

Vandermeer said in his Goodreads Q&A that he had Kubrick's The Shining in mind when he wrote that book. That goes a long way toward explaining your unease, doesn't it? ;-)

I'd agree with you on the imagery. (view spoiler)[I thought the hand thing was really weird too; I noticed it more with the hand shaped organisms in the tower.

Not sure I see rejection in the finale though. She explicitly rejects self-harm (after the first incident) and prepares herself to go up the coast, accepting what is going to happen to her. I think it was also in the fifth chapter that she makes the statement Whitney quoted above, that she can't see Area X as a bad thing. (hide spoiler)]

I would never have guessed The Shining as an inspiration for Authority! I will try to keep that in mind. I discovered today that I could upgrade my Kindle editions of both the first two books with the Audible for $4 apiece, so I have them. (I'll have to pay full bore for the third, apparently.) Hoping to give them a try very soon.

(view spoiler)[Amy (Other Amy) wrote: Not sure I see rejection in the finale though. She explicitly rejects self-harm (after the first incident)

A: *looks away, whistling to herself*

Amy: and prepares herself to go up the coast, accepting what is going to happen to her.

A: Well, there are *levels* of acceptance, aren't there? IMO, she doesn't try to escape because a) Area X is interesting, b) she hopes to find her husband, and c) she doesn't know how to get out anyway.

Amy: I think it was also in the fifth chapter that she makes the statement Whitney quoted above, that she can't see Area X as a bad thing.

A: Even so, I can assure you she's not completely at peace with her situation. ;-) (hide spoiler)]

I would never have guessed The Shining as an inspiration for Authority! I will try to keep that in mind.

It's in that creeping sense of dread, even when things *look* normal (or almost normal). There are little things off-kilter that you notice kind of out of the corner of your eye. One I can point out to you, because it doesn't spoil anything, is that the arrow pattern in the cafeteria carpet changes direction halfway through the novel. Kubrick also played with the carpet patterns in The Shining. I found that out from a great documentary about Kubrick's Shining. It's called Room 237. Watching that helped me figure out some of what Vandermeer was doing.

I discovered today that I could upgrade my Kindle editions of both the first two books with the Audible for $4 apiece, so I have them. (I'll have to pay full bore for the third, apparently.) Hoping to give them a try very soon.

Excellent! And I can't wait to read the discussion from people once they finish Acceptance.

:) I would agree she is not completely at peace with it. (And I really look forward to Acceptance as well!)

Thanks for that documentary pointer; I will have to look that up.

The documentary really is fascinating. I recommend it highly.

I read the series last year. It is one to re-read.

Actually pretty stoked for the movie if it happens. Alex Garland would be an excellent choice for director, and I would love to see Tilda Swinton as the psychologist!
http://www.slashfilm.com/annihilation...

I hadn't heard - that could actually be good. I'll keep my fingers crossed.

I've heard some tidbits about the movie - some reassuring, some *not* reassuring. Portman has now been officially cast, and so have the anthropologist and surveyor. For those two, they went with actresses I'm not familiar with; but they're both women of color, so that's exciting. Also exciting is the fact that Alex Garland will be the director. I recently watched Ex Machina, and it blew me out of the water.

On the downside, I've read that the script takes a lot of liberties with the book. That pisses me off. I also haven't heard anything about the casting of the psychologist, and until I read Whitney's message, I was afraid they were leaving her out. But that would involve some gigantic changes to the script - and to the follow-up movies, if they happen - so I was very worried but I suppose I should have known better. They *can't* leave her out. But I don't really see Swinton or Moore as being right for the role even though I love, love, *love* both of them. The psychologist is not a sexy or charismatic person. My ideal casting for that part would be Cherry Jones or Viola Davis.

Amy (Other Amy) wrote: "Sounds like we should have a good group when we get to Authority. There's no room on the master schedule right now, but I'll see what I can do about a discussion."

Just thought I'd put a note in here for those of you wanting to do Authority. Traveller has put a discussion question up over in the suggestions thread about putting it on the schedule for the first week of February, moving The Chimes to June. (See here: https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...). It occurred to me I should post that over here to be sure you all saw it, as I know a number of you had requested Authority from the library and other sources when you finished Annihilation. Your input as to whether that schedule will work for you or not is valuable; we try to accommodate as many people's schedules as we can for the 'official' read (though of course our discussions never close). Thanks, and sorry I didn't think to cross post that until now.

I think it will fit. The timing is good. But will need to check that my book will arrive from library at the point.

Yep. Just checked. Will suit me

Hi! A broadcast was sent out to members in this regard. In case it is too short notice - that's okay. That possibility is also covered in our poll regarding this issue, which can be found here: https://www.goodreads.com/poll/show/1...

Feedback on the poll thread will be appreciated- it was set up especially for feedback on how we're going to handle this. Thanks! :)

Thanks, Traveller.

Whitney wrote: "Vadermeer denies that Roadside Picnic was an influence, but that is the one that I (and quite a few others) were immediately reminded of in Annihilation. The idea of artifacts left by..."

I'm glad I was not the only one who thought of that. I haven't read the book yet; I've only seen Tarkovsky's excellent movie Stalker which is based on it, but the alien presence, the idea of a wild zone with hidden dangers, set apart from the normal human world, all made me think of that. That said, I totally believe that VanderMeer could have come up with a similar concept on his own, and Annihilation is very different in its set of characters and the focus on biology and the environment, among other things.