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Jan—My Life on the Road (2016)
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I'm not smart enough to be a feminist (page 100)
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Jan 29, 2016 01:01PM
This paragraph at the top of page 100 really spoke to me. I feel that if I speak up about feminism or publicly identify as feminist, or share my view on any other issue like the economy, or who I am voting for, then I should be able to talk about it intelligently and defend against all sorts of potential arguments and attacks. I am hesitant to say "I am a Feminist" when I know that it could get a negative reaction and lots of questions that I can't answer. This is why I decided to join this book club, to hopefully become more educated and be able to talk confidently about why I believe certain things.
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YESSSS!!! When I told my husband I joined "a book club," I did so kind of sheepishly. When he asked why I was smiling funny, I said, "Well...it's a feminist book club..." He laughed and jokingly said, "Of course it is." But it made me realize that I was kind of embarrassed. I felt like I would need to immediately defend myself -- like the mere mention of the "f" word would be cause for a heated discussion. Hasten the day that "feminism" will not be a bad word.
Mod
I think it's not because of a lack of knowledge. It's about what the concept of feminism represents in our society. Nobody takes it seriously because we don't demand enough respect.
Sara wrote: "This paragraph at the top of page 100 really spoke to me. I feel that if I speak up about feminism or publicly identify as feminist, or share my view on any other issue like the economy, or who I a..."We got your back, Sara! So glad that you are a part of this book club!
I've always declared myself as feminist as a kind of a joke, because I was always afraid that people will judge me (because of the negative connotation the term has), but I have learned that people who know me, perceive me as one because of the way I react to certain things. My brother, when he's talking to me about some topic, often says something along the line of..."Maybe you as a feminist, will not like this, but...." or when we are speaking about that "traditional hard-core feminism" that has such a negative connotation, he says..."They are not like you....". So there it is, apparently I really am a feminist and I love my brother dearly for perceiving me as one and respecting it.
I feel the same as you do Sara! I'm trying to learn more about feminist issues by reading as much as I can, but sometimes I feel that I don't fully understand what the article is talking about. I feel that I need things to be really well explained and explicitly stated, but sometimes I think the inequality is very nuanced. So sometimes I do feel that if I get questioned on things, I won't be able to defend them...but should we always have to?
We should always seek to learn more, but feminism is very simple. All feminism is is supporting equality for all.
I've always identified as a feminist, but when I really took ownership in being a feminist and when I really started to notice the injustices around us and in the world was when I saw the documentary "She's beautiful when She's Angry" last year. I recommend it to all of you if you get a chance to see it.
Allan wrote: "The feminism is just equal??"Yeah, but I guess it's not that simple. We all agree that feminism is gender equality, but perhaps in the past (and even now) people associate feminism with knowledge, politics and studies.
I was surprised and not surprised at the same time with that sentence, because it's so sad that people make that association but also not that surprising coming from people with maybe lack of studies
Sorry But I just want a good explanation of the feminism
Mod
Hey, Allan! I think you are a native Spanish speaker, right? This is the right place for you to ask more about feminism. Aquí podrás hablar en español con otros miembros, si lo prefieres. Si prefieres seguir conversando en inglés, también está este espacio. Este hilo, aunque algo tiene que ver con tus inquietudes, no es el más adecuado para tus preguntas. ¡Gracias y bienvenido al grupo! :)
Si en efecto soy Un Hispanohablante lo que quiero con respeto Ana, es aprender más sobre este tema que tiene una suma importancia en nuestros días y gracias por la invitación.
Mod
¡De nada! Una de mis responsabilidades aquí es orientar a los nuevos miembros hispanohablantes y fomentar su participación. El foro ha crecido mucho desde su inicio; te recomendaría que le eches un vistazo con calma para orientarte un poco. Te va a encantar, estoy segura. Los hilos en español van precedidos del código [ES], aunque te animo a permanecer activo en las conversaciones en inglés igualmente. Un alto porcentaje de este foro cuenta con el inglés como segunda lengua, así que aquí nadie corrige a nadie ni se miden niveles. :D ¡Encantada de conocerte!
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Gotta love welcoming new Spanish speaking members! I want to go back to this thread later at night because I can relate soooo much to all of you.
Muchísimas Gracias!, le echaré un vistazo a todo y bueno si la segunda lengua la domino.Muchas gracias por darme estas indicaciones y estoy muy entusiasmado por ser parte de algo muy Importante.
E igual Mucho gusto en conocerte A ti también!
I can totally relate to this! A lot of my friends and acquaintances tease me a little when they know I'm going to "say something feminist" or they can "ask the feminist" for the "feminist point of view". I've been embarrassed by that a lot, but am working to shift to being proud of it and owning it and being able to answer more questions. I just don't have the answers. At this point in my understanding of feminism, I still wonder why I'm being singled out when most of these other men and women believe the same things I do about equality, choices, freedom and encouraging each other. I would love some more ideas on how to explain these ideas to others who are still averse to the label. Is it just the label they're averse to? And what types of things can we do to help educate people? I have always believed in teaching by example, but I think sometimes, I need to be more direct and assertive.
It's a problem with the feminist movement, especially for us older females who never attended college/university. The only face-2-face feminist group within 2 hours of my town won't take members unless they have a degree. So I guess it's no wonder some of us feel sometimes as if we aren't "smart enough" to be a "real" feminist (in "smarter" feminists' eyes anyway).
I felt the same way, I was hesitant to let people know it was a book club that reads books about Feminism. Even though I would describe myself as a Feminist, I felt that I wasn't enough in the know to really talk about. Then reading this book and some stories I found it doesn't matter what level, or chapter :), there is another one coming and you'll learn more and I think that's the best thing about feminism and this book club, there's always more to learn.
I can totally relate to Sara's comment and many others here. My brush with feminism was a very brief study of feminist art in the 1970s as part of a politics topic at uni many years ago. I found it hard to relate to. And I was influenced by those around me who felt that feminism was a 'dirty' word and signified bra burners and women who got angry if a man held a door open for them. I was influenced by the idea that we had moved beyond it and that it was relegated to history. I thought that feminism was all about hate. I am ashamed to say that pushed against the idea of feminism for so long until I read Steinem's book. I was so misguided. I am an educated woman and I had ignored this part of who I am. I realised I have been a feminist all along and its something to be proud of. I realised that even though some people around me still roll their eyes if I mention feminism (or say something critical) they are also feminists. I have to say I am struggling with the criticism of feminism in those I know and love. I was told the other day by a woman (very close to me), 'I don't like that feminist s#!t, why would I want to read about it'. I am hoping that this important woman in my life will read Steinem's book at some point and realise that she is just as much a feminist as I am. This is why I would recommend this book to everyone I know. Because it has changed my life. I do not say that lightly. It has made me reassess my values and my outlook on life - how I fit in and who I am.
I find the conversation going on in this discussion board very interesting. I am a teacher of English in community colleges in Ohio (US) and I see a lot of hesitating among younger students (ages 18-25) when it comes to declaring themselves as feminists. The young women want to be treated equally and the most of the young men are respectful of both myself and the girls in the class, but that "f" word is always something that makes people nervous. I find this very discouraging. Young women in the world need to be encouraged to see their concerns taken seriously and to learn to demand equality for all. Reading about Steinem's journey to educate people all over the world and the United States was very inspiring. It is always refreshing to hear about someone that tried to open minds and hearts to love and equality. I hope to one day be able to pass on such lessons to my students.
Lynn wrote: "It's a problem with the feminist movement, especially for us older females who never attended college/university. The only face-2-face feminist group within 2 hours of my town won't take members un..."Can we just talk about this for a moment? I was a first generation college student, and my grandmother and mother both seemed to feel that 'feminist movements' implied some lofty educational standard to which they would never belong.
How do you include ALL women with a pretty diverse set of interests and educational backgrounds?
Kayla wrote: "Can we just talk about this for a moment? I was a first generation college student, and my grandmother and mother both seemed to feel that 'feminist movements' implied some lofty educational standard to which they would never belong.How do you include ALL women with a pretty diverse set of interests and educational backgrounds?"
Not sure what you're asking here: are you asking *me* how I would include ALL women? I don't think I'm like your g'mother & mother who both seemed to feel, if I understand you correctly, that they would never belong to feminist movements becuz they felt they couldn't meet the lofty educational standard. In my case, I'm not the 1 who feels like she doesn't belong; it's the women requiring members who have the "higher" education who think I don't belong. They're the ones are are wrong, not me, IMO. Their loss; but they're doing what people have been doing since the beginning of time; don't listen to elders, they don't have any useful, up-to-date info; just humin nature, I guess. Been nice if the feminist movement could've broken new ground in that respect & been more open-armed but not to be, I don't think.
Lynn wrote: "Kayla wrote: "Can we just talk about this for a moment? I was a first generation college student, and my grandmother and mother both seemed to feel that 'feminist movements' implied some lofty educ..."What they are doing, in my opinion, is just another form of discrimination. Older generations have so much wisdom, and not learned knowledge (although that too), but wisdom based on life experience. I love hanging out with older women and listen to what they have to say to me (even if sometimes I don't agree).
When I decided to join this book club it was more because now that I'm not in university I read way less than I used to, and less because I think of myself as being a feminist. I mentioned to on of my friends that I had joined it but that I don't really think of myself as being a feminist. She seemed totally shocked and then told me all the ways I was a feminist. I 100% agree with Sarah about not feeling like I'm educated enough about feminism to be able to say I am a feminist. However, I am absolutely thrilled as I go through and read the threads that we are all discussing and sharing. It's like we have a world wide talking circle that has no real end, and that allows us all to grow and question and change together :)
Mod
Sorry, that was pretty nasty but I cannot fathom how anyone thinks that is an acceptable requirement for a book club... We read books to LEARN. So shouldn't they want "less educated" people to read books that they themselves are endorsing? What a bunch of elitist crap!!!
The only thing I could think of is that they're reading dense, theoretical/academic-style texts that the average person wouldn't really want to read? Doesn't seem like a reason to exclude anyone, though. I would just think that people would just not participate if they didn't like the type of books being read.
Lynn, don't let 'em get you down. Doesn't sound like you are ;) Have you checked the "Meeting Up" section here on Our Shared Shelf? Maybe people in your area are getting together to discuss the books we read here!
This really struck a chord with me too. Not so much that I'm not smart enough (although, believe me I do not class myself as clever in any way!) but more that I don't know enough about feminism, about inequality and everyday sexism to be able to hold my own in a debate with someone. Information is hard to come by and I would have loved to have been able to do some kind of higher education course in women's studies.
Thanks for the kind words, every1. I have checked the Meeting up section here on OSS but nothing in my area yet. And frankly, I despair of their ever being a meetup here in this area; the women around here just seem too happy just being the "little woman" & talking about kids/g'kids & church. But Pippa, you shouldn't think for 1 minute that you don't know enuff about feminism; if you live anywhere on planet earth & aren't possessed of a penis, you know about/have experienced feminism! Now educating yourself about some of the aspects of it that you're not so familiar with, that's another thing & if someone's got time/energy to do so, that's wonderful, I think.
Erika wrote: "most of these other men and women believe the same things I do about equality, choices, freedom and encouraging each other. I would love some more ideas on how to explain these ideas to others who are still averse to the label. ..."I have similar experiences, Erika. And it always takes me by surprise. I'll be having a conversation with a good friend who has very similar beliefs as I do about women's roles not being confined to traditional ways and the second I mention the feminism word, she will say something about not being a feminist. It shocks me so much I just say, but you believe x, y, and z, right? But it just doesn't seem to change her belief about what a feminist is, I guess. So it seems the word (and the movement as a labeled thing) has too much baggage.
I don't know what to do about it. I suppose I should try to think of strategies around what to do the next time it happens. Maybe ask the friend what they think the word means. I'm afraid I wouldn't be able to convince her of any other meaning, however. Some people seem pretty set that they know what feminism is and just find it disagreeable. What a bummer. Do we just need a new brand to the concept?
Sorry to step into the subject but maybe - as I do myself - some people find the concept absurd... why should humans still discuss if women, black people, disabled people, should NEED to be told equal? Shouldn't it be obvious? I know it isn't... But to be labeled something (and I don't see any disagreeable meaning in "feminist" itself) sort of makes you take sides... and - again, just for me - there is only one side, human beings (sometimes I tend to believe that we are not even the good guys, but that is another topic).
Just adding: maybe I was too limited in saying there is only one side, human beings... I guess maybe there are two sides, "nice" human beings and "stupid" human beings...
@Nestor & Joshua,I don't think we should demean people just because some of them don't agree to your viewpoints. Because that is how you spread hate even before you spread your beliefs.
Imagine you are about to give a speech to those who are unsure about feminism. Would your opening sentence be "you are all stupid human beings because u are not a feminist"? How would your reaction be if someone said the same to you?
Jing, I didn't put those two things together... my comment on "nice" and "stupid" human beings was related to my previous statement that there is only one side on every discussion, which is the human being side... and then I remembered all those assholes who make others lives miserable due ethnic, religious and political issues.First, I would never give a speech on feminism... or on atheism (which I am)... people either see what is right in the World and what is baloney or don't. I am not the "right" guy. I am just me.
Kayla wrote: "Lynn wrote: "It's a problem with the feminist movement, especially for us older females who never attended college/university. The only face-2-face feminist group within 2 hours of my town won't ta..."How do we include all women? I think this is a great question. Reading through this thread it becomes obvious that many women feel they cannot be feminists, or do not want to be because of the ideas they have about feminism. I think the only way to include people is to keep talking. Something that Gloria Steinem argues in favour of. We cannot expect everyone to suddenly turn around and become a feminist. We need to talk about the things that are important to us with in a respectful way. We need to recognize that this will not always work, but maybe you'll find out that many people are only afraid of the word.
I asked my thesis professor if he was a feminist. He said he didn't consider himself as such. "Do you believe that men and women should be social, political and economic equals?" He considered this for a moment, as if he was suspecting a trap. "Yes." "That's it. That is all there is to it." In the following weeks he seemed much less afraid when I talked about feminism. (FYI, my thesis was about women in the German theatre of the 1970s and 1980s, up until this conversation I was having a hard time with this professor every time we talked about the subject).
I honestly believe that conversation is key.
I have yet to read the book (so many waiting in library queue that I might buy it instead), but want to add a couple of comments anyway.Statistics are great.
Sources to original research is great.
I'm no sociologist or women's whatsitcalled researcher so have absolutely no idea where to look. Feel free to point us in the right direction if you have insight, I'd be very grateful!
On the other hand, if something feels right, there is no shame in it. Feelings can be based in personal experience, and that is a total number of one research subject only. Does it make the experience any less valuable? No! And even if you simply feel warmly for feminism, keep educating yourself like I do, and be proud of your choice. Nobody knows all the things even when they are an acknowledged expert on a topic.
In the case of people not wanting the label feminims, that is their right. The worst we can do is to keep pushing in such a direction, so I'd rather try to speak around the topic, gauge opinions on feminist ideas, and find common ground through practical examples. Later you can tell a person that it seems to you they are actual feminists, if you think they are, but it doesn't matter really, as you can agree on a topic level without forcing the labels. Some people just don't want or need labels, but they might subscribe to the same things you believe in despite that fact. It is their right to avoid labelling, too :)
Aglaea wrote: "I have yet to read the book (so many waiting in library queue that I might buy it instead), but want to add a couple of comments anyway.Statistics are great.
Sources to original research is great..."
:)
Urgh, this is exactly what's happening to me. I'm proud of the little steps in confidence though.. my boyfriend is picking up My life on the road (book #1) and it feels like a little victory :)
Feminism is about self-confidence. You don't have to defend or explain. Just say I'm a feminist and live your life. Actions speak louder than words
I've definitely felt how everyone has felt; not smart enough, not thoroughly informed, to call myself a feminist. But the thing is, the world doesn't have time to wait for me to feel ready to make a difference. And frankly, I don't owe anyone an explanation or defense for how I identify myself, nor does anyone for that matter.
She just lost a lot of respect from me with her millennial women supporting Bernie comment. Shameful.
Kinda hard to get a conversation going when it keeps getting mommyjacked or biblejacked.
Elena wrote: "I think it's not because of a lack of knowledge. It's about what the concept of feminism represents in our society. Nobody takes it seriously because we don't demand enough respect."I agree! Definitions are everything and if you line up 10 different people from different backgrounds, ages, genders, you'll probably get 10 different definitions of what they think feminism is!!!
Elena wrote: "I think it's not because of a lack of knowledge. It's about what the concept of feminism represents in our society. Nobody takes it seriously because we don't demand enough respect."I have to disagree. All feminism is, essentially, is demanding respect in the form of equality. Of course more can always be done to bring about awareness and encourage participation in the movement, but I don't think the lack of respect for feminism is the fault of women not demanding respect
Andrew wrote: "I've definitely felt how everyone has felt; not smart enough, not thoroughly informed, to call myself a feminist. But the thing is, the world doesn't have time to wait for me to feel ready to make a difference. And frankly, I don't owe anyone an explanation or defense for how I identify myself, nor does anyone for that matter"This is at the core of the problem, I think. As long as people bunch up smartness/cleverness/intelligence and information/knowledge, we are doomed. Libraries are free. Some open universities are free. Gaining knowledge without having a formal degree is possible, and a lot is to be found online these days, too.
So what is stopping people from claiming knowledge and owning it? If you have the information and can express yourself in a convincing, cohesive manner, everyone will listen. We have a chance to be proactive and amidst the things that are happening, or we can feel sorry for ourselves, bitch and moan about it, and watch passively on the sidelines. Make no mistake about having a choice, because activity is up for grabs. You just have to take the spot and fill it. And there is room for all.
Margaret wrote: "Elena wrote: "I think it's not because of a lack of knowledge. It's about what the concept of feminism represents in our society. Nobody takes it seriously because we don't demand enough respect."
..."
Whether a social movement is succesful or not doesn't rely on the knowledge of the people who join it but in its cohesion. Feminist movement is one of the less cohesive movements. So, yes, the problem is that women do not respect themselves.
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Whether a social movement is succesful or not doesn't rely on the knowledge of the people who join it but in its cohesion. Feminist movement is one of the less cohesive movements. So, yes, the problem is that women do not respect themselves.
Aglaea wrote: "Andrew wrote: "I've definitely felt how everyone has felt; not smart enough, not thoroughly informed, to call myself a feminist. But the thing is, the world doesn't have time to wait for me to feel..." Agreed
Elena wrote: "Margaret wrote: "Elena wrote: "I think it's not because of a lack of knowledge. It's about what the concept of feminism represents in our society. Nobody takes it seriously because we don't demand enough respect.Whether a social movement is succesful or not doesn't rely on the knowledge of the people who join it but in its cohesion. Feminist movement is one of the less cohesive movements. So, yes, the problem is that women do not respect themselves."
I should have added that research shows confidence grows with increasing knowledge, not necessarily the other way round. In this sense it is about not respecting oneself, because one might not feel confident enough.
A separate issue is the lack of unity in the movement, and on that I agree!
