Sword & Sorcery: "An earthier sort of fantasy" discussion

What is a RPG tie-in? Well RPG = role-playing-game. Any media-type relation is okay, so if you play a video game RPG and found a novelization...that works. Perhaps a novel was born first and inspired an RPG...that works too....but please share the connection and spur discussion. We are talking stuff associated with trademarks like:

Forgotten Realms / Dragonlance / Warhammer / Diablo

How about an RPG-verse -- that is, a universe that is run by RPG rules?

You get webcomics /books like Dungeon Crawlin' Fools and all its sequels and prequels, which is so thoroughly set in a D&D universe that characters casually talk about levels and saving throws and failing checks. (And there are other webcomics -- I'm fond of Rusty and co., but it doesn't have a compilation.)

Or Drew Hayes's NPCs and its sequel, with a thinly veiled D&D game and the universe it runs in. One DM stages a module to give his players due warning about the increased realism -- they all get killed -- and leaves four hapless NPCs wondering how to save their village from the king's wrath because four adventurers with a charter from him died in their village.

For some reason, they tend to be comic. 0:)

I'll be reading Firestorm, an obscure novelization of the Fighting Fantasy gamebooks (~1980's) that evolved into Games Workshops' Warhammer.

Most likely I'll be reading Liar's Island, from the Pathfinder RPG. I read the first book with the same characters, Liar's Blade, a couple years ago and really enjoyed it.

Mary wrote: "How about an RPG-verse -- that is, a universe that is run by RPG rules?

You get webcomics /books like Dungeon Crawlin' Fools and all its sequels and prequels, which is so thoroughly..."

There's also the original D&D tie-in Quag Keep from Andre Norton. Thlough to be honest I have yet to read it.

I've played D&D on and off for years, since I was maybe 10 years old! I am currently in the longest lasting campaign with the same characters and regular sessions, just about a year long, level 5 now.

For this group read I am picking up The Last Wish and perhaps I, Strahd: The Memoirs of a Vampire later.

The Witcher is a tie-in game to the books. Those are already back from the 90s. English just somehow got the translation after everyone else. Very much recommend them, the games capture the style really quite well.

I'd mentioned the same thing earlier, but I still want to read it.

Dan wrote: "There's also the original D&D tie-in Quag Keep from Andre Norton. Thlough to be honest I have yet to read it.."

I have. It was not one of her more striking works, but it was a good book.

Jack wrote: " I've never seen these books, but I'm going to try and get to them soon.."

Rich Burlew also has it online at http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots.html.

Though the books do have more.

S.E. wrote: "I'll be reading Firestorm, an obscure novelization of the Fighting Fantasy gamebooks (~1980's) that evolved into Games Workshops' Warhammer.

"

I'm tempted to play (or re-play) an old Fighting Fantasy gamebook or two for this group read.

Jack wrote: "I plan to read The Last Wish (Witcher video games) and if time permits, Heldenhammer, the first book in the Legend of Sigmar (Warhammer) series."

Both of these have been on my TBR list for a while. I must track them down.

Dan wrote: "I've played D&D on and off for years, since I was maybe 10 years old! I am currently in the longest lasting campaign with the same characters and regular sessions, just about a year long, level 5 now."

I'm jealous! It's been years since I played in/refereed a campaign!

I'm working on The Dragons' Return, which is Monte Cook's 'alternative' setting from Arcana Evolved, followed by Blood of Tarrian, from the dimly-known Bloodshadows line, and then From Prussia With Love, from Castle Falkenstein.

Derek, those selections are in dire need of reviews. I'm sure you remedy that.

I can recommend From Prussia with Love: A Castle Falkenstein Novel

Some spoilers ahead (not sure how to use the spiler tags):

I'm already halfway through The Last Wish. It's a quick read. I find it at times a bit... monotonous, but usually by the time I begin to grow bored with a certain story, it's done and I'm onto the next (as it is a compilation of shorts, with a sort of wrap around story). It's definitely high action, lots of fighting, and the fighting has a distinct game or movie feel, and it's not surprising that it became a video game in that respect. It's flashy and a bit over the top. Which is okay. But what I am enjoying is the dialogue. The discourse between characters can be quite fun, though sometimes tiresome as Geralt (The Witcher) can become a might bit predictable, usually his verbal sparring partners are quite entertaining though.

Spoiler:
(view spoiler)[Another fun aspect is classic fairy tales turned on their head, so far there's been reference to Rapunzel, Beauty and the Beast, Snow White, Rumpelstiltskin, and a few more I think. Some just mentioned in passing, others are the crux of a story. (hide spoiler)]

Overall it's a surprisingly addictive read. Not flawless by any means, but just easily digestible. I wouldn't be surprised if I have it done by the end of the week.

I've really enjoyed the Witcher books, although at some point (maybe after #7 comes out) I need to go back and read them all in close succession; and maybe on a reread I'll have better luck following the framing story in Last Wish.

(And the games were excellent!)

Not quite sure what I'll be selecting for the group read -- maybe it's time for a few more Pathfinder novels, or alternatively, since I reread the original Dragonlance trilogy a couple of years ago, maybe DragonLance: Legends Trilogy?

Oh, but I'll also highly, highly recommend The Man of Gold by M.A.R. Barker as a possible candidate if anyone's looking.

Dan wrote: "Some spoilers ahead (not sure how to use the spiler tags)

If you click on the '(some html is ok)' link at the top right of the comment box, it shows the spoiler tags near the bottom of the tag list. All you need do is place the word spoiler in between the two arrow-like brackets just before the text you want hidden and then place /spoiler within the same tags at the end of the text concerned. (I hope that makes sense!)

Thanks Greg! Got it and edited it in!

Making more progress, and it's still quite addictive. Again I love the little twists on myth and fairy tale. But at about the halfway point at a story called The Edge of the World, which I am just wrapping up now, I found Sapkowksi really is beginning to expand the world to his own vision, add his own history.

I also want to add that is distinctly Sword & Sorcery. Structurally, the compilation of short action packed stories, adds to this effect. But it's more than that, it's the themes and execution; A swordsman, semi-mercenary, fighting evil sorceries and monstrosities. He has a code, but not your usual overly righteous code (as is illustrated in the opening story). And the stories tend to be dark, sometimes introspective and philosophical, like a Howard or Moorcock story. Which isn't to say it doesn't have a modern touch, it does. It has a certain gothic feel and also a distinct eastern European feel too (for obvious reasons) that wasn't prevalent in many other S&S works.

The more I read it, the more I am enjoying The Last Wish.

Joseph wrote: "Oh, but I'll also highly, highly recommend The Man of Gold by M.A.R. Barker as a possible candidate if anyone's looking. "

I've had The Man of Gold and Flamesong on the shelf for years, but have never got around to them. I've read one or two of the Tekumel rpg books, and found the setting kind of difficult to wrap my head around.

Richard wrote: "I've had The Man of Gold and Flamesong on the shelf for years, but have never got around to them. I've read one or two of the Tekumel rpg books, and found the setting kind of difficult to wrap my head around."

Yeah, it can be a bit overwhelming if you just plunge into the sourcebooks. I do think the fiction is more accessible, though.

Just finished The Last Wish, and really liked it. I'm going to gather my thoughts before writing a review, but it was a very enjoyable read. And I enjoyed the wrap-around story as well (didn't seem confusing to me).

In which I wax philosophical. . .

Because the medium affects the story, even the most faithful tie-in is a story not a game. Order of the Stick can have a character tell another about how she went on an adventure and came back with more lock-picking skills even though she hadn't picked any locks -- but still, the party members are not all the same, with Roy clearly being the determining factor; splitting up the party was given a LONG run; and there are even long sequences in which no PCs appear at all.

Demands of story.

Just finished gathering my thoughts and writing up my review for The Last Wish:
https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

Started The Worldwound Gambit by Robin D. Laws -- it's the fourth Pathfinder Tales novel.

And on a related note:

http://www.mybookishways.com/2016/03/...

I'm looking forward to it -- Numenera is an interesting setting; I backed the computer game on Kickstarter and will be playing it, well, once it's actually completed and released.

Oh, also, I finished The Worldwound Gambit, which was quite good, and will be starting another Pathfinder novel, Master of Devils by Dave Gross.

(For no good reason, I find myself compelled to read the series in order of publication.)

Very cool! I've never tried Pathfinder, though as a player of 3rd and 3.5 edition of D&D (skipped 4th, playing 5th now) it always intrigued me.

Dan wrote: "Very cool! I've never tried Pathfinder, though as a player of 3rd and 3.5 edition of D&D (skipped 4th, playing 5th now) it always intrigued me."

I have walls and piles and boxes of RPG supplements dating back to 1st edition AD&D, but haven't ever played all that much -- I just like reading the stuff and poring over the maps. I can't speak to Pathfinder as a ruleset, but the setting is fun and the four novels I've read have ranged from competent to really quite good.

Joseph wrote: "Oh, also, I finished The Worldwound Gambit, which was quite good, and will be starting another Pathfinder novel, Master of Devils by Dave Gross.

(F..."

Oh, also, I finished The Worldwound Gambit, which was quite good, and will be starting another Pathfinder novel, Master of Devils by Dave Gross.

(For no good reason, I find myself compelled to read the series in order of publication.)

I'm inclined to read them that way too but are they mainly stand-alone novels?

Dan wrote: "Very cool! I've never tried Pathfinder, though as a player of 3rd and 3.5 edition of D&D (skipped 4th, playing 5th now) it always intrigued me."

I used to DM, and occasionally play, 1st and 2nd edition AD&D but never progressed to the WotC editions. I think this is mainly because a number of my friends got married and/or moved away or - worse! - became Magic: The Gathering players!

Joseph wrote: "I have walls and piles and boxes of RPG supplements dating back to 1st edition AD&D, but haven't ever played all that much -- I just like reading the stuff and poring over the maps. I can't speak to Pathfinder as a ruleset, but the setting is fun and the four novels I've read have ranged from competent to really quite good. "

Though I was no longer playing or refereeing the game, I bought a number of issues of Dungeon magazine to stay in touch with the hobby and enjoy reading some of the scenarios. It was a real shame when WotC ceased publishing Dragon and Dungeon - they were good quality magazines that were leaders in their market and had lasted such a long time.

I bought a bunch of Pathfinder supplements and scenarios in a sale held by Paizo.com in 2014. For the most part, I'm impressed with the quality of the writing and illustration but whether I ever will get to play the game is another thing. Maybe when my nephews are old enough my brother (their dad) and I might introduce them to role-playing and so I'll get the chance to use this stuff!

Greg wrote: "I'm inclined to read them that way too but are they mainly stand-alone novels?"

More a combination of standalone novels and short standalone series, much like Forgotten Realms -- Dave Gross, e.g., has written three? four? Pathfinder novels about the same set of characters, but I don't think there's much, if any, crossover from one author's books to another's.

I'm just reading them in order of publication because that seemed like an easy way to organize them -- otherwise, maybe check the titles, find ones that look interesting and just make sure to start with the first in that particular sequence. Or not -- I think even within series, the books are mostly written to be relatively standalone.

I might just go with whatever title takes my fancy then although if I wanted to read them all then it would probably be easier to read them in publication order.

Greg wrote: "I might just go with whatever title takes my fancy then although if I wanted to read them all then it would probably be easier to read them in publication order."

Hey Greg, it would be cruel to follow up on your OCD to read series in entirety and in order.... but I chime in anyway to tell you that I finally read Firestorm. As a fellow RPG addict...you may get a good high off reading that :).

My review is here: https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

All Warhammer, Grimdark, and Fighting Fantasy fans would devour this, though to appreciate it it helps to have other prequels: i.e., Zagor is the warlock in the first Fighting Fantasy gaembook (1983). I was led to the Zagor novels via a kickstarter campaign I sponsored You are the Hero. That's a great reference for the emergence of Games Workshop.

Some of the 1980 and 1990's books are tough to find now. More are in the UK, so you may be able to get them easier being across the pond.

S.E. wrote: "Some of the 1980 and 1990's books are tough to find now. More are in the UK, so you may be able to get them easier being across the pond. "

Will check out your review of Firestorm in a mo! Amazingly, no local book shop stocks them any more but they can be ordered by them (and of course via online as well).

Very interesting review, Seth! One thing I've always liked about the Fighting Fantasy game books is the illustrations - detailed, creepy and very atmospheric in many cases.

Although I didn't read the later volumes, the three stand-out books I enjoyed are City of Thieves, The Forest of Doom and Deathtrap Dungeon. The cover art of these books alone is creepy enough (but in a good way)!

Jack wrote: "I just did a quick search for Fighting Fantasy books and found quite a few although several are over $30."

Yikes! Is this the lower end of the pricing?

Many of the fighting fantasy game books are electronic now; iTunes and google play have them, just search "Fighting Fantasy" ... they are not eBooks but are Apps with faux dice rolling

I think Iain McCaig did the covers for the ones Greg mentions.

Greg wrote: "Dan wrote: "Very cool! I've never tried Pathfinder, though as a player of 3rd and 3.5 edition of D&D (skipped 4th, playing 5th now) it always intrigued me."

I used to DM, and occasionally play, 1s..."

I too remember Dungeon and Dragon magazine, used to peruse them at the game store, picked up the odd one too. Worth getting for the art alone I think.

I've DMed and been a player in D&D campaigns throughout the years. Most didn't last long, but all were fun. I also played Magic since... well 1995, only a couple years after it's inception. Admittedly now I have little time to play it, and I ended up selling much of my collection just recently. I think Wizards of the Coast was a great company, and even did a lot for streamlining D&D, 3rd and 3.5 were great (also played AD&D before them). I think the downfall for Wizards was when Hasbro bought them, there was an almost instant change in the way Magic the Gathering was handled and how they did business. It's made them more successful... but more commercialized in general. Never been a big fan of the books, though I did have an early anthology that had a couple cool short stories. The ongoing story seemed cool, but I just never liked the authors that were chosen to novelize it. A buddy of mine loved them though.

As for Games Workshop; I played a bit of Warhammer when I was a kid, but I found it too hard to stay up with it and other hobbies so I gave up on it pretty quickly. I did enjoy playing it, damn expensive and time consuming hobby though. Never heard of Fighting Fantasy until recently in these forums, I'm interested to explore it more.

Greg wrote: "I might just go with whatever title takes my fancy then although if I wanted to read them all then it would probably be easier to read them in publication order."

If you want to try a couple Pathfinder novels with a strong s&s influence, give Liar's Blade and Liar's Island a try. They can stand alone, but I'd recommend reading Blade first for the character introductions. The stories, though, are completely stand alone. Essentially, they are about a thief and his magical talking sword, and the various adventures they have while searching for treasure and trying to scam others out of their gold.

Finished Master of Devils and started the next Pathfinder book, Death's Heretic by James L. Sutter, while sitting in the bar drinking beer and waiting to head over to the theater for Boiled in Lead's annual St. Patrick's Day show.

Great review Joseph. I was also out for a couple of beers for St. Patty's day last night (but not too many 'cause I get up at 5:30 am every morning). What is a Boiled in Lead show, by the way?

Boiled in Lead is a band that's been playing here in the Twin Cities for 33+ years (although these days they just get together for a few shows per year). High-energy traditional and not-so-traditional music. They actually have multiple connections to fantasy literature -- they had a cameo in Emma Bull's War for the Oaks, and they wrote a soundtrack CD for Steven Brust's The Gypsy. And for several years back in the 90s and early 2000s, their singer was Adam Stemple, son of Jane Yolen and a fantasy author in his own right.

Here's one of their songs from their 2011 show -- I was somewhere in the audience at the time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJUN7...

Dan wrote: "I too remember Dungeon and Dragon magazine, used to peruse them at the game store, picked up the odd one too. Worth getting for the art alone I think. "

I agree! The art was often superb!

Dan wrote: "I also played Magic since... well 1995, only a couple years after it's inception. Admittedly now I have little time to play it, and I ended up selling much of my collection just recently."

I have to admit to playing MtG too, though I never got hooked on it. While it's a fun game it's more like playing chess so, for me, it's not a substitute for role-playing. Regrettably, some former role-players I know gave RPGs up in favour of it (or of other collectible card games) so the possibility of playing an RPG session with them again seems remote. That said, if they're having fun with CCGs then who am I to complain about that? Also, there's no reason why somebody couldn't play both types of game.

Dan wrote: "As for Games Workshop; I played a bit of Warhammer when I was a kid, but I found it too hard to stay up with it and other hobbies so I gave up on it pretty quickly. I did enjoy playing it, damn expensive and time consuming hobby though."

One thing I liked about Games Workshop early on was that its still surviving magazine, White Dwarf, included articles for, and reviews of, a whole range of gaming stuff that catered to games published by TSR, Chaosium, FASA and other companies. There was also a lot of text and therefore a lot of information in those articles and scenarios. Then, in the '90s, only Games Workshop games were serviced by White Dwarf, which was an understandable change but that meant there could be less cross-fertilisation of ideas from other games systems. Alas! Nowadays it's just a glossy mag full of ads and pictures with little significant text.

Richard wrote: "Greg wrote: "I might just go with whatever title takes my fancy then although if I wanted to read them all then it would probably be easier to read them in publication order."

If you want to try a..."

Thanks for the recommendation, Richard. I note what you say about reading Liar's Blade first.

Greg wrote: "One thing I liked about Games Workshop early on was that its still surviving magazine, White Dwarf, included articles for, and reviews of, a whole range of gaming stuff that catered to games published by TSR, Chaosium, FASA and other companies. There was also a lot of text and therefore a lot of information in those articles and scenarios."

That was what I loved about Dragon magazine back in the day (1980s into early 1990s) -- it wasn't just a TSR house organ; it had articles about and reviews of all sorts of other stuff from other publishers, although D&D was naturally the primary focus.

And it had a surprisingly strong fiction review section for many years -- Dragon book reviews turned me on to a lot of great authors back in the day, like C.J. Cherryh.

^Yeah I remember White Dwarf, though I never had any issues myself. I'd read my friends copies when we'd visit his parents cabin and I was out of reading material. Again, I was sometimes just impressed with the art in and of itself, especially White Dwarf, I loved the models. I'm sure I was turned on to some authors from it or Dragon magazine too, but to be honest I can't remember any specifically myself.

I really liked Dragon's fiction reviewers.

Joseph wrote: "And it had a surprisingly strong fiction review section for many years -- Dragon book reviews turned me on to a lot of great authors back in the day, like C.J. Cherryh. "

Not just a strong fiction review section, it also had some really good fiction at times. When I first started reading Dragon, I always skipped the fiction in favor of the game material. Later on I realized what I was missing, and went back and reread some of it. Wish I hadn't been so hasty to skip it back then.

Joseph wrote: "Greg wrote: "One thing I liked about Games Workshop early on was that its still surviving magazine, White Dwarf, included articles for, and reviews of, a whole range of gaming stuff that catered to..."

Yes that's right! Dragon was open to a lot of non-TSR stuff too! Forgot about that.

Dan wrote: "^Yeah I remember White Dwarf, though I never had any issues myself. I'd read my friends copies when we'd visit his parents cabin and I was out of reading material. Again, I was sometimes just impre..."

I probably still have a few figurines in a box somewhere - goblins or hobgoblins I think - that I made using a mould and pewter(-ish?) ingots.

Mary wrote: "I really liked Dragon's fiction reviewers."

So did I. I also liked Dave Langford's reviews in White Dwarf, which were collected in The Complete Critical Assembly: The Collected White Dwarf (and GM, and GMI) SF Review Columns. It would be nice if the reviewers in Dragon did something similar.

Richard wrote: "Not just a strong fiction review section, it also had some really good fiction at times. When I first started reading Dragon, I always skipped the fiction in favor of the game material. Later on I realized what I was missing, and went back and reread some of it. Wish I hadn't been so hasty to skip it back then. "

I liked the fiction as well - and Thrud was fun too!

Jack, that's a great review. It looks like it will be next months groupread topic too, so this may fuel the momentum to check it out.

For RPG-philes...note this new podcast:

Richard A. Knaak (author of many RPG boos from Warcraft, The Legend of Huma, Diablo, and many more) just released his Black City Saint and is interviewed live on teh Grim Tiding's Podcast:

http://thegrimtidingspodcast.podbean....

Interview with Richard A. Knaak
Apr 7th, 2016 by thegrimtidingspodcast
We’re joined by New York Times bestselling author Richard A. Knaak! Richard drops by to talk about his latest novel BLACK CITY SAINT, an urban fantasy noir set in 1920’s Chicago. We’ll discuss Richard’s prolific career writing novels and short stories set in various shared worlds, including Dragonlance, World of Warcraft, Diablo, Age of Conan, and more. With nearly 50 novels and something close to five million published words, Richard has close to three decades of experience. And be sure to listen in for your chance to win a copy of BLACK CITY SAINT, courtesy or PYR Books! Find Richard online at RichardAKnaak.com, or on Twitter @RichardAKnaak!